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U.S. To Declassify Hundreds Of Millions Of Documents

OR they never got them or they were lost like so many other pieces of bureaucratic paper work. Most agencies do not have a high priority or give many resources to records preservation.

Did some looking:

http://www.nicap.org/wilson.htm

Discusses some aspects of the daily log

http://www.project1947.com/roswell/rosearch.htm

Discussion of all Roswell paper work

The daily log exists perhaps it is the message log that is missing?
 
I can't really imagine anything in those daybooks would be much use to anyone anyway.

"Bunch of debris turned up. Don't know what it is yet."

- I mean, what would you expect to find? - "[b]Yippee, a Zeta Reticulan craft at last, let's see if we can get the surviving pilot to talk"[/b]
It wouldn't go in the daybook, would it?
 
You might have gotten a notation that a vehicle had left the base with x people in it. But that wouldn't probably have made it into the base daily log book, perhaps the squadron/base motor pool dispatch log.

What I think is missing is the message log, which might be more interesting, but even that would only log in when a message came in, who it was from, who it was for, whether encrypted or not and its classification and urgency.

Usually the day log would be kept the Staff Duty NCO, so unless someone briefed him on it - he wouldn't put it in.

Hey maybe the alien did a "baby Greystoke" thing with his hand and an ink pad.
 
I would like to see any correspondence concerning the Roswell debris, not just the log books from the bases, which are probably long gone.

Particularly interesting would be any mention of Project Mogul in connection with the debris. The connection seems to have been made quite early on, as Col. Marcellus Duffy was named as a press contact on 8th July; he was at one time involved with Project Mogul, and second hand reports indicate that he identified the debris as associated with Project Mogul at some time around that period. So if what he said was true, he knew exactly what the material was, but did not specifically name Mogul in public at that time.

Any messages or documents addressed to, from, or by Duffy would be very valuable, in my opinion.
 
I believe anything relating to Mogul would be highly classified and not released under the FoIA.
 
That seems unlikely, after all this time. The most secret part of the project was the experiment to detect high altitude sound waves from Soviet nuclear testing; those results haven't been released, but practically everything else about the project now has.

Still, you may be right; some jobsworth might still be sitting on information that might help solve this mystery.
 
wembley8 said:
I believe anything relating to Mogul would be highly classified and not released under the FoIA.
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Don't forget we're not talking of the FoIA, this is some new law passed by the Clinton regime that's just become active.
 
Mogul appears to have been declassified in the 70s.
 
We know from Barry Goldwater's own repeated testimony that when he asked to see the semi-legendary "Blue Room" at Wright-Patterson Air Force base (near Dayton, Ohio) he was really read the riot act.

So the United States Air Force DOES hold UFO secrets which may not be examined or even known by an:

1. Air Force Major-General;

2. Long-time United States Senator;

3. Presidential candidate of one of the two major parties. (And such candidates are usually given very high security clearances, so that if they win they're not going into office "cold.")

Question: Who CAN see them? Who IS privy to them?
 
Hanslune said:
Mogul appears to have been declassified in the 70s.
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Got a link? I looked a year ot two back and could only find a press release relating to Roswell, very little hard data.

(Long story, but there are some interesting aspects to this technology)
 
OldTimeRadio said:
So the United States Air Force DOES hold UFO secrets which may not be examined .... Question: Who CAN see them? Who IS privy to them?
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If the UFOs in question are classified aircraft - which many UFO sightings have been - then then are Special Access Programs which are compartmentalised and only shared on a 'need to know' basis. There is no way you could get data simply to satisfy curiousity, there has to be a security/operational reason.

At one point there was even a bizarre situation where, IIRC, the head of the Air Force did not know about the stealth fighter development program.

Now, if the security people have any sense - and I believe they do - they will be randomly classifying data on a few other sightings. Otherwise Intelligence types will say "Ah, all the data on boomerang-shaped UFOs is open, but the high-altitude discs all seem to be hushed up..." and will be able to tell which ones are classified aircraft by eleimination.
 
Well I looked again and got different answers, no source agrees. Some say in 1947, 70's some 80's...take your pick~

Or, an experimental top secret spy platform that was being tested at a nearby air base crash landed on a farm in Roswell one a stormy evening. The government picked up the pieces and then, needing a story that did not reveal anything about their top secret spy platform, lied and instead produced a torn weather balloon, a story they maintained until about ten years ago, when Project Mogul was declassified. Document dated 2000

http://www.genepool.addr.com/roswell.html

Mogul, itself, was declassified within days after Roswell when the Pentagon conducted a demonstration for the press at White Sands. A photo of a Mogul array was even published in the Alamogordo paper July10, 1947.

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=12968

The USAF report credits UFO-researcher Robert Todd as being the first to discover the Project Mogul connection, as first reported in SUN #28/July 1994. The report also notes that the Project Mogul connection also was discovered independently by UFO-researcher Karl Pflock and reported in his "Roswell in Perspective" report, published last August by the Fund for UFO Research (FUFOR). [SUN #29/Sept. 1994] (Project Mogul was declassified in the early 1970s.)

http://www.csicop.org/klassfiles/SUN-30.html
 
wembley8 said:
At one point there was even a bizarre situation where, IIRC, the head of the Air Force did not know about the stealth fighter development program.
Click to expand...

I would submit that a nation in which Air Force projects are kept hidden from the head of the Air Force is a nation severely mucked up.

However, Vice President Harry S. Truman didn't learn about the development of the atomic bomb until he was sworn in as President after Franklin D. Roosevelt's death.
 
if the coverup was to protect Project Mogul the ufo story wouldnt have been my choice

it instead focused alot of people to it ,personally id have said it was some kind of missle wreckage or fuel tanks from a military plane,then said for public safety the area needs to be sealed off to clean up the toxic mess etc

no at the time the story made local news headlines and was afterwards explaind away,ok modernday ufo story in paper is a good cover but back then it was headline news,world wide news, saying they had a captured ufo

not a good way to hide a super secret prodject,and imho wasnt Project Mogul at all they were hiding.as it seems its still worth hiding due to all the silly storys released by the government.
 
In 1991, after William J. Clinton had been sworn in as President of the United States, he sent Webster Hubbell over to both the Air Force and the CIA to obtain their secret UFO files for his (Clinton's) perusal.

The President's request was not granted.

Thus there seem to be UFO files so beyond-top-secret that even the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Services doesn't possess a high enough security clearance to examine them. (There was a fictional echo of this in the film INDEPENDENCE DAY.)

So who does have high enough securuity clearances, when the CiC does not? And who awards those security clearances?
 
Nearly 20 years ago I stumbled upon the theory that the Government was frantically attemping to erase all record of experiments carried out by rogue elements of the Air Force and early aero-space engineers. According to the theory those elements were launching V-2 rockets with human passengers aboard. - displaced children out of war-ravaged Europe and/or Asia, absolutely untraceable (in those pre-DNA days) and thus "disposeable."

That's such an ugly story that I refuse to give it credence. But it does at least offer an explanation for all those charred little bodies.
 
I couldn't find the basis for the Clinton story, except for this

Speculation from some UFO researchers is that this may have been the result of pressure from the Clinton White House. President Bill Clinton is known to have had an interest in Roswell, instructing friend and associate Attorney General Webster Hubbell to find out what happened (reported in Hubbell's memoirs). (not note on what happened)

Do you have a source for that?

V-2..ah what would be the point of firing a small child up in an unrecoverable rocket?
 
Hanslune said:
Do you have a source for that?
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Alas, no. What I posted here came basically from newspaper and UFO magazine reviews of Hubbell's book.

V-2..ah what would be the point of firing a small child up in an unrecoverable rocket?
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I assume that telemetry would have been involved, so that vital signs could be monitored.

And the perpetrators of such an experiment would at least have had the knowledge (albeit the criminal knowledge) that they had actually fired human beings to the edge of space.

But I really have very little if any belief in this ugly story.

Just look at how we of the West criticized the Soviets a mere 11 years later when they fired an unrecoverable dog into space.

P. S. I just remembered a joke from 1958 - "The Russians are going to shoot a bunch of cows into orbit. It will be known as 'the herd shot round the world.'"
 
Yes I agree that doesn't sound like a plausible conspiracy. Usually conspiracies have some point!

Complex conspiracies (like Roswell) take on a life of their own after a certain length of time. So much false data gets created that it muddles the waters to the point it becomes increasingly murky and incomprehendable to anyone who doesn't commit an enormous amount of time to learning all the aspects. You get multiple flavors of which conspiracy exists. They also develop a hydra like ability to come up with even more questions, pathways, evidence, etc as previous ones are explained.

Like I tell people who believe in Atlantis, don't discuss the merits of the case, FIND Atlantis. The same goes with Roswell - don't discuss the merit s of the case find the bodies and the ship, anything less will not solve the question.
 
Hanslune said:
Like I tell people who believe in Atlantis, don't discuss the merits of the case, FIND Atlantis.
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I submit that Atlantis has been found more that a dozen times over the past seven to nine years.

Atlantis wasn't a discrete location. It was instead an age, one that disappeared under the sea at the end of the most recent Ice Age.
 
Hanslune said:
The same goes with Roswell - don't discuss the merit s of the case find the bodies and the ship, anything less will not solve the question.
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But the United States Air Force and the Roswell skeptics don't deny that multiple witnesses saw "bodies" in the desert.

However, they claim that these "bodies" were actually Air Force test dummies dropped from the skies....in 1958.

Well, that at least explains why I remember my sixth birthday party so well - you see, I was really 17 when it took place!
 
An interesting idea, for Atlantis to be an age instead of a place however that contradicts the only source of information we have on Atlantis, Plato.

In my own view Plato's Atlantis was just a construct for Plato's dialogue about political and ethical systems.

Bodies

Human memory works in such a way that some things become muddled, especially timelines.

The Air Force was attempting to come up with some plausible explanation of why people would have seen bodies and recovery crews - that is the only one they had. Remember the AF isn't a monolithic organization with undying personnel and borg like commonality of thought. To them Roswell is as much a mystery to them as it is to others.
 
Hanslune said:
An interesting idea, for Atlantis to be an age instead of a place however that contradicts the only source of information we have on Atlantis, Plato. In my own view Plato's Atlantis was just a construct for Plato's dialogue about political and ethical systems.
Click to expand...

But what I find interesting is that Plato seems to have dated his Atlantis to what works out in modernm dating to about 9500 BC, which is the same time that our "Atlantean age" went under the rising seas.

Human memory works in such a way that some things become muddled, especially timelines.
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Of course, but the question is whether they become all that muddled in ELEVEN YEARS.
 
Hanslune said:
Human memory works in such a way that some things become muddled, especially timelines.
Click to expand...

In most circumstances I would buy that line, but not here the events being remembered and the time differences in the witnesses own lives would be too great. Boy sees the Roswell event while playing, Young man sees "dead dummies" while working on a ranch, there would be too many changes in his own points of reference too get them confused, was he smoking? did he have a gun? how tall was he? what music was on the radio? all of these differences and considering that the events might very well rank with getting married to a 1940/50s rural guy in terms of out of the ordinary happenings.
 
Shocking events are remembered in great detail, I can remember the exact place I was when Kennedy was shot, the space shuttle blew and 9-11 occurred, on the first two my remembering of the date has faded, I know the year and month only now.

Question to someone who is more knowledgeable about the Roswell literature, do the people who recall these events remember the exact days?


"... to about 9500 BC, which is the same time that our "Atlantean age" went under the rising seas...."

Question, what is 'our' Atlantean age???
 
Hanslune said:
Mogul, itself, was declassified within days after Roswell when the Pentagon conducted a demonstration for the press at White Sandsl
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Please can you give some non-Roswell data on Mogul and it's specs.

I don't believe it has been declassified and no details seem to be available.
 
OldTimeRadio said:
Nearly 20 years ago I stumbled upon the theory that the Government was frantically attemping to erase all record of experiments carried out by rogue elements of the Air Force and early aero-space engineers. According to the theory those elements were launching V-2 rockets with human passengers aboard.....
Click to expand...

That'll be "Gravity's Rainbow" by Thomas Pynchon from 1974.

You certainly wouldn't get Roswell-style debris from one of those! (And the 'bodies' did not show up until many years after that).

Fiction - I've never seen any suggestion it was based on anything other than his fertile imagination. There were piloted versions of the V-1 though.
 
Hanslune:"do the people who recall those events remember the exact days?"

Fort most people, it is very difficult to remember the exact dates, even if they're only a few years (or a few months) old. Many decades later, it is almost impossible. I can't remember if I saw my UFO when I was 8 or 9 years old. The only way is to have "boundary marks", to relate with other events. When I use this method, it works pretty well.
I suppose we can trust witnesses who had such marks.engraved in their minds. Chester Barton, for example, clearly recalled he heard the press release one day after his sighting (he thought of an atomic bomber). He remembered that in the following months, he had heard of the recovery of "alien" bodies, supposedly from the same crash, but didn't believe it.
There was a debate if Lewis RICKETT's memory of his involvment with Dr LA PAZ dated from 1947 or 1949. Records suggested that it was February 1949; it is indisputed that they both were involved in a UFO search in the area at the time. It would be an exemple of memory confusion. But others answered that there were maybe two occurences, and the debate is still not closed. In any case, I think we can't come to any definitive conclusion relating to Roswell after so much time. Few serious police investigators would deem it reasonnable. The matter should have been investigated at the time.
 
crunchy5 said:
Hanslune said:
Human memory works in such a way that some things become muddled, especially timelines.
Click to expand...

In most circumstances I would buy that line, but not here the events being remembered and the time differences in the witnesses own lives would be too great. Boy sees the Roswell event while playing, Young man sees "dead dummies" while working on a ranch, there would be too many changes in his own points of reference too get them confused....
Click to expand...

Exactly. Peoples' memories of their high school proms don't include scenes from other parties that they attended at age 28 or 29.
 
wembley8 said:
That'll be "Gravity's Rainbow" by Thomas Pynchon from 1974.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but that doesn't seem to be true for my main informant.

She'd studied a great deal of Roswell materials (mainly borrowed fro me) in an attempt to explain the extremely hostile reactions of Air Force personnell in the Roswell of July, 1947, without reference to UFOs and aliens.

Without insisting upon the scenario, she regarded the V-2 rockets and DP children hypothesis as covering all bases.

But I also know from long literary discussions with her that she has never read Pynchon.
 
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