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Useless Policing Or A Cover Up?

Suicide.

Complicated by:

a) A mother who can't believe that her little soldier would top himself, and wants to find someone else to blame, and;

b) An investigation that seemed proportionate at the time, but has been made to appear inadequate by single-issue fanatics with nothing else to do, and no-one else to whom to be accountable.

maximus otter
 
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maximus otter said:
Suicide.

Complicated by:

a) A mother who can't believe that her little soldier would top himself, and wants to find someone else to blame and ;

b) An investigation that seemed proportionate at the time, but has been made to appear inadequate by single-issue fanatics with nothing else to do, and no-one else to whom to be accountable.

maximus otter
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But what about the inconsistencies about what had been said and done?
 
MorningAngel said:
But what about the inconsistencies about what had been said and done?
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Get enough people involved in anything and there will be ballsups and inconsistencies. Also, it seems, some arse-covering. That's where the mistake - if any - lay: When you do drop a bollock, admit it, because it's the coverup that'll sink you every time. Also it'll provide the single-issue fanatics with ammo to make everything else seem fishy.

maximus otter
 
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MorningAngel said:
Also he was living in Germany why did he kill him self in London?

Edit- And why by a cinema ticket right before?
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Why did Netta Fornario travel from London to Iona to kill herself? Why did Elisa Lam drown herself in a rooftop water tank? These cases have been discussed at length here on FTMB. The short answer is that people who are about to do the ultimate weird thing by killing themselves, often perform other weird acts attendant to the death.

maximus otter
 
I find it amazing the number of times that families will say that their loved one who has committed suicide, had absolutely no reason to do so- "normal, happy, loving etc". I'm sure that in some cases that might be true from their point of view, but in others it transpires that they were aware of what was wrong. One example was a husband in the North west who disappeared and the wife apparently had "no clue" why he had done so. She maintained that story until his body was found and it transpired that he had been having an affair, had been discovered (the wife knew) and he had committed suicide. His behaviour on the days before his disappearance was erratic in the extreme .
In the case of this poor young man, possibly the Police investigation was a bit lacking (hindsight is a wonderful thing), but the mother's anger, whilst completely understandable, seems misdirected to me. (and I am no great supporter of the Police.) One of those cases regretfully, which will never really get solved satisfactorily.
 
I dunno, someone could have chucked him off the top for the cash, but his erratic behaviour beforehand suggest he was not in his right mind, so it could have been an impulsive action.
 
Suicide usually can be picked up by various signs and expressed intent.

Cases like this are so unfathomable for the family because there are no signs and it damages them more because they have no idea whether they could have done something or not - It's a wound that cannot heal.

Taking the piss out of the mother's grief shows a remarkable lack of empathy and suggests something is really wrong.
 
Pure speculation of course, but I see no information in the article , biased as it is, which would suggest there was any real evidence that the poor lad did not commit suicide. Having said that we only get in these cases a tiny number of the facts. As NF says it will be a wound that will never heal.
 
PeteS said:
Pure speculation of course, but I see no information in the article , biased as it is, which would suggest there was any real evidence that the poor lad did not commit suicide. Having said that we only get in these cases a tiny number of the facts. As NF says it will be a wound that will never heal.
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And yet the coroner didn’t believe there was enough evidence to the fact that he had taken his own life, giving an open verdict. ‘...at Walthamstow Coroner's Court when the coroner delivered an open verdict.

Dr Elisabeth Stearns said she "could not satisfy herself as to precisely what happened in the few minutes leading up to the fall".’

And why no forensics from the top floor? ‘Forensic analysis did take place but only on the lower second floor where a footprint was ruled out of the investigation.

Regarding forensics on the eighth floor, the Met's Internal Investigations Command stated "it had been impossible to establish if this was requested but clearly it was not done".’

‘However, the pocket books of two officers and the Incident Management Log from the day were lost prior to the inquest.’ I seem to remember it’s pretty big thing for an officer to lose their pocket book.
 
I have a reasonable amount of experience of suicide.Sometimes it can be well planned and other times an impulsive act. People travel to areas they are not from for the scenic beauty or so no one they know may find them. People give away prized possessions, money, clothes etc. Some people will act normally, in fact their mood may be brighter because they have made their plan. Some people will be depressed, eratic or distressed, but we can never predict who will or wont complete suicide. I nursed a girl who got up one morning on the ward, had a shower, got dressed and ate breakfast. 45 minutes later she jumped of multi storey. Was there anything in her behaviour that raised any concerns?no there was nothing. Truth is we feel guilt when someone takes their own life and think that they really did not want to do it. But we never really know what goes on in someones head, even those closest to us.
 
MorningAngel said:
And yet the coroner didn’t believe there was enough evidence to the fact that he had taken his own life, giving an open verdict. ‘...at Walthamstow Coroner's Court when the coroner delivered an open verdict.

Dr Elisabeth Stearns said she "could not satisfy herself as to precisely what happened in the few minutes leading up to the fall".’

And why no forensics from the top floor? ‘Forensic analysis did take place but only on the lower second floor where a footprint was ruled out of the investigation.

Regarding forensics on the eighth floor, the Met's Internal Investigations Command stated "it had been impossible to establish if this was requested but clearly it was not done".’

‘However, the pocket books of two officers and the Incident Management Log from the day were lost prior to the inquest.’ I seem to remember it’s pretty big thing for an officer to lose their pocket book.
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Agreed- I doubt that the coroner had any other alternative, and the verdict leaves the matter open for further investigation.
 
Shady said:
I think he was blackmailed, maybe, and was probably meeting his blackmailer on the roof, he paid his £1000 plus he gave him the watch, the blackmailer left, the boy couldnt stand it any longer, knew it would never end and jumped



Just a guess
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That is one possibility, but there is much to speculate on. The Police may get criticised, but this sounds another one of those cases where the truth will never be established.
 
Lizard King said:
I have a reasonable amount of experience of suicide.Sometimes it can be well planned and other times an impulsive act. People travel to areas they are not from for the scenic beauty or so no one they know may find them. People give away prized possessions, money, clothes etc. Some people will act normally, in fact their mood may be brighter because they have made their plan. Some people will be depressed, eratic or distressed, but we can never predict who will or wont complete suicide. I nursed a girl who got up one morning on the ward, had a shower, got dressed and ate breakfast. 45 minutes later she jumped of multi storey. Was there anything in her behaviour that raised any concerns?no there was nothing. Truth is we feel guilt when someone takes their own life and think that they really did not want to do it. But we never really know what goes on in someones head, even those closest to us.
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That sums it up in a nutshell.
 
The first thing that strikes me reading the BBC article (and the others that have appeared in the last few days) is that there is an awful lot of very pertinent information not included, which information there is no reason to believe is not in the public domain.

I was going to post a list of the more obvious questions one might ask, but then I found an article that answered at least some of them:

From The Scotsman in 2004. A more thorough article than any that have appeared in various places just recently.

I'm not, by any means, saying an open and shut case - some of the big questions clearly remain in place. However, it also strikes me, reading this earlier article, that psychological torment and suicide appear less mysterious conclusions, and that much information which might point that way has been omitted from many of the later accounts.
 
Hmmm... I had not heard of this case before, and it was a very interesting (but tragic) read. It does appear that the police in this case went with the easiest option, rather than investigating properly and thoroughly. They surely shouldn't be making assumptions about suicide without proper forensic testing, and thorough checking of CCTV etc. It just smacks, to me, of one of these "can't be bothered, let's just go for the option that involves the least amount of work" type of things.

And surely, even if the end result would more clearly point to suicide, it would be more of a comfort to his family if they had more answers as to what exactly went on in those last few days?

I'm aware that it doesn't mean much, for parents to say "oh my son/daughter wouldn't commit suicide, they were happy" because parents don't know everything that goes on in their children's lives, certainly not when those children have moved out of the family home etc.

But there are a heck of a lot of odd things about this case.

Why was he in the car park? He didn't have a car, presumably, as he'd travelled from Germany - did they say how long before his death, that he'd arrived in the UK?
Why did he book a hotel and then not stay there - where did he stay?
Who used the Tube ticket that he had in his possessions? Did he use it then not get on the train, is that possible?
Where was the money he'd withdrawn and his expensive watch?
He seemed close enough to his family (they spoke on the phone / via internet) so surely if he was having difficulties and decided to end it all, he would have written them a letter / left some sort of message, even for them to find after his death?
Why go to London? Did he know someone there? Did he travel there with someone / arrange to meet someone?

I feel for his family, it must be awful to not have answers.
 
I think a lack of answers from a man not mentally healthy is not evidence of a conspiracy, more that he wasn't able to open up to anyone before he died. He must have been so isolated. And the reason he went to the car park seems obvious - to throw himself off. I hesitate to say it's a "popular" choice, but I remember walking around a large bloodstain on the tarmac next to a Glasgow multi-storey car park, where someone had ended it all.
 
It's also worth pointing out that as well as not necessarily discussing their feelings with those close to them - and despite popular opinion - I think I'm right in saying that most suicides do not leave notes.
 
Yeah. Gives me the grues, worse than the one at the top of the hill, by Sauchiehall Street.
 
Frideswide said:
Yeah. Gives me the grues, worse than the one at the top of the hill, by Sauchiehall Street.
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I think the one by Sauchiehall Street at least has a border around it of plants and soil, which could theoretically break a fall - don't ask me if it really would though.
 
Apparently jumping isn't as common a method of suicide as we might think. I do wonder, however, whether the method is more highly represented in what we might class as apparently spontaneous suicides - needing virtually no technical preparation or paraphernalia. (I think I'm right in remembering a case from a few years back when a Serbian official jumped from a Belgian multi-storey - apparently spontaneously, and in the immediate presence of several other people.)
 
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Stratford is pretty depressing- I worked there for three years. It's all a bit different now the Olympic Park and Westfield is there, but in 2001 it was horrible.
 
Spookdaddy said:
Apparently jumping isn't as common a method of suicide as we might think. I do wonder, however, whether the method is more highly represented in what we might class as apparently spontaneous suicides - needing virtually no technical preparation or paraphernalia. (I think I'm right in remembering a case from a few years back when a Serbian official jumped from a Belgian multi-storey - apparently spontaneously, and in the immediate presence of several other people.)
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Usually, men take more violent ways to kill themselves, hanging, guns, crashing into things while driving. Women tend to kill themselves in less violent ways, pills, cutting wrists, suffocation.

Would be interesting, in a macabre sort of way, to see if this is changing due to gender parity.
 
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