Victor Goddard's "Paraphysical" UFO Explanation

Floyd1

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#1
Just wondering what anyone thinks to Victor Goddards theories;
On 3 May 1969, Goddard gave a talk on UFOs at Caxton Hall in London, in which he said:
https://allaboutheaven.org/observat...or-goddard-ufos-as-apported-beings-024905/221
...while it may be that some operators of UFO are normally the paraphysical denizens of a planet other than Earth, there is no logical need for this to be so. For, if the materiality of UFO is paraphysical (and consequently normally invisible), UFO could more plausibly be creations of an invisible world coincident with the space of our physical Earth planet than creations in the paraphysical realms of any other physical planet in the solar system...

Given that real UFO are paraphysical, capable of reflecting light like ghosts; and given also that (according to many observers) they remain visible as they change position at ultrahigh speeds from one point to another, it follows that those that remain visible in transition do not dematerialize for that swift transition, and therefore, their mass must be of a diaphanous (very diffuse) nature, and their substance relatively etheric...

The observed validity of this supports the paraphysical assertion and makes the likelihood of UFO being Earth-created greater than the likelihood of their creation on another planet...
 
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Carl Grove

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#2
Just wondering what anyone thinks to Victor Goddards theories;
On 3 May 1969, Goddard gave a talk on UFOs at Caxton Hall in London, in which he said:
https://allaboutheaven.org/observat...or-goddard-ufos-as-apported-beings-024905/221
...while it may be that some operators of UFO are normally the paraphysical denizens of a planet other than Earth, there is no logical need for this to be so. For, if the materiality of UFO is paraphysical (and consequently normally invisible), UFO could more plausibly be creations of an invisible world coincident with the space of our physical Earth planet than creations in the paraphysical realms of any other physical planet in the solar system...

Given that real UFO are paraphysical, capable of reflecting light like ghosts; and given also that (according to many observers) they remain visible as they change position at ultrahigh speeds from one point to another, it follows that those that remain visible in transition do not dematerialize for that swift transition, and therefore, their mass must be of a diaphanous (very diffuse) nature, and their substance relatively etheric...

The observed validity of this supports the paraphysical assertion and makes the likelihood of UFO being Earth-created greater than the likelihood of their creation on another planet...
I think there were others besides Goddard who had the same idea, and of course Vallee and Keel suggested the same notion in less extravagant language. It does explain the problem that Vallee has emphasized that there are just too many sightings, 1000s of them, to support the ETH. If they are in a sense sharing our space, then we would tend to see a lot of them whereas one presumes that alien visitors would be less frequent.
 

Floyd1

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#3
I think there were others besides Goddard who had the same idea, and of course Vallee and Keel suggested the same notion in less extravagant language. It does explain the problem that Vallee has emphasized that there are just too many sightings, 1000s of them, to support the ETH. If they are in a sense sharing our space, then we would tend to see a lot of them whereas one presumes that alien visitors would be less frequent.
Hey Carl, nice to hear from you- thanks.
 

Fahrenheit 451

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#5
I would hazard an educated guess that UFO's are:

A. Sometimes our's (USA/NATO)
B. Sometimes their's (Russia/China)
C. Sometimes from other dimensions
D. Sometimes from other planets - "manned"
E. Sometimes from other planets - "drones"
F. Sometimes a creation of our own planet (energies)
G. Sometimes a creation of our own collective consciousness (like a tulpa)
H. Sometimes from the past
I. Sometimes from the future
J. Sometimes mis-identified

Only a model like this would seem to fit the complex variety of sightings that we experience.
 

Zeke Newbold

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#6
Long since Goddard wrote that, the parallel universe, or multidimension explanation for UFOs (and indeed many other `paranormal` phenomena) has become very popular - and indeed quite lazily applied, in my view.

Parallel universes and the `multiverse` belong to the realm of speculative physics and we really don't know anything about them. There is no known and widely accepted case of anyone or anything travelling from one dimension to another.

Indeed one of the world's authorities on this topic - one Michio Kaku - has said that if one wanted to travel from one dimension to another then this would be no mean feat. He said that this would require a device the size of the solar system in order to generate the power needed to do so!

So when we glibly talk about something being from `another dimension` or `alternate universe` we might as well substitute those phrases for `fairyland` for all that we actually know about parallell worlds or how to travel to them.

We have been here before. In the early Twentieth Century, after radio waves and their uses were being explored, paranormal enthusiasts were full of talk about `vibrations` and `wavelengths` to talk about the possibility of the afterlife and so on. They were drawing from an analogy made from discoveries made about radiation - but their use of these pseudoscientific terms was just as superficial as the current talk of `the multiverse` etc.

Meanwhile the `Extraterrestrial Hypothesis` is suffering from the familiarity breeds contempt syndrome - it has been taken up by popular culture to the extent that people have become a bit tired of it. Also - it just seems too damned obvious, doesn't it?

We have all seen detective shows where the first - and most obvious - explanation for the crime or criminal is always the wrong one and the right explanation is later delivered via a surprise plot twist. This works well in fiction, but the real world does not follow these fictional requirements: sometimes the obvious answer is the right one.

So when looking at the small percentage of more exotic UFO encounters - these seem to involve what look like intelligently controlled craft which are not of earthly manufacture. Given that we know that other planets exist and that space travel is possible - then The ETH approach seems like a good starting point, whereas the interdimensional hypothesis (and for that matter the time traveller hypotesis) are based on highly speculative premises. and hence a weak place to start.

I would hazard an educated guess that UFO's are:

A. Sometimes our's (USA/NATO)
B. Sometimes their's (Russia/China)
C. Sometimes from other dimensions
D. Sometimes from other planets - "manned"
E. Sometimes from other planets - "drones"
F. Sometimes a creation of our own planet (energies)
G. Sometimes a creation of our own collective consciousness (like a tulpa)
H. Sometimes from the past
I. Sometimes from the future
J. Sometimes mis-identified

Only a model like this would seem to fit the complex variety of sightings that we experience.
Oh, dear that's a bit messy, isn't it? That's an awful lot of explanations for what is a very, very rare phenomena (when you discount all the misidentifcations and hoaxes, that is). Given what I have just said above I'd only go with J, D, E and - in some specific cases -something between F and G.

I am surprised that you have not mentioned unkown (or partially unknown) atmospheric phenomna like ball lightning and so on. That should go in the mix, for sure!

I regard it as highly unlikely that any major world power has been manufacturing anything that resembles the UFOs seen at close quarters for the last 60 years. If they has such technology we would soon know about it, as it would have been deployed in conflicts. New military technology does not stay secret for very long (cf the atomic bomb).

I also want to add that, if the ET Hypothesis is correct, then the visitor's technology would be so far advance of our own as to explain all of the paraphysical aspects which the Interdimensional advocates speak of: objects seeming to disappear, shape shifting, `telepathic` effects,and hallucinatory episodes on the part of witnesses and all of that.
 

Floyd1

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#7
Long since Goddard wrote that, the parallel universe, or multidimension explanation for UFOs (and indeed many other `paranormal` phenomena) has become very popular - and indeed quite lazily applied, in my view.

Parallel universes and the `multiverse` belong to the realm of speculative physics and we really don't know anything about them. There is no known and widely accepted case of anyone or anything travelling from one dimension to another.

Indeed one of the world's authorities on this topic - one Michio Kaku - has said that if one wanted to travel from one dimension to another then this would be no mean feat. He said that this would require a device the size of the solar system in order to generate the power needed to do so!

So when we glibly talk about something being from `another dimension` or `alternate universe` we might as well substitute those phrases for `fairyland` for all that we actually know about parallell worlds or how to travel to them.

We have been here before. In the early Twentieth Century, after radio waves and their uses were being explored, paranormal enthusiasts were full of talk about `vibrations` and `wavelengths` to talk about the possibility of the afterlife and so on. They were drawing from an analogy made from discoveries made about radiation - but their use of these pseudoscientific terms was just as superficial as the current talk of `the multiverse` etc.

Meanwhile the `Extraterrestrial Hypothesis` is suffering from the familiarity breeds contempt syndrome - it has been taken up by popular culture to the extent that people have become a bit tired of it. Also - it just seems too damned obvious, doesn't it?

We have all seen detective shows where the first - and most obvious - explanation for the crime or criminal is always the wrong one and the right explanation is later delivered via a surprise plot twist. This works well in fiction, but the real world does not follow these fictional requirements: sometimes the obvious answer is the right one.

So when looking at the small percentage of more exotic UFO encounters - these seem to involve what look like intelligently controlled craft which are not of earthly manufacture. Given that we know that other planets exist and that space travel is possible - then The ETH approach seems like a good starting point, whereas the interdimensional hypothesis (and for that matter the time traveller hypotesis) are based on highly speculative premises. and hence a weak place to start.



Oh, dear that's a bit messy, isn't it? That's an awful lot of explanations for what is a very, very rare phenomena (when you discount all the misidentifcations and hoaxes, that is). Given what I have just said above I'd only go with J, D, E and - in some specific cases -something between F and G.

I am surprised that you have not mentioned unkown (or partially unknown) atmospheric phenomna like ball lightning and so on. That should go in the mix, for sure!

I regard it as highly unlikely that any major world power has been manufacturing anything that resembles the UFOs seen at close quarters for the last 60 years. If they has such technology we would soon know about it, as it would have been deployed in conflicts. New military technology does not stay secret for very long (cf the atomic bomb).

I also want to add that, if the ET Hypothesis is correct, then the visitor's technology would be so far advance of our own as to explain all of the paraphysical aspects which the Interdimensional advocates speak of: objects seeming to disappear, shape shifting, `telepathic` effects,and hallucinatory episodes on the part of witnesses and all of that.
But if we didn't 'speculate' occasionally, we wouldn't ever find ANYTHING out, would we?
 

Fahrenheit 451

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#8
Long since Goddard wrote that, the parallel universe, or multidimension explanation for UFOs (and indeed many other `paranormal` phenomena) has become very popular - and indeed quite lazily applied, in my view.

Parallel universes and the `multiverse` belong to the realm of speculative physics and we really don't know anything about them. There is no known and widely accepted case of anyone or anything travelling from one dimension to another.

Indeed one of the world's authorities on this topic - one Michio Kaku - has said that if one wanted to travel from one dimension to another then this would be no mean feat. He said that this would require a device the size of the solar system in order to generate the power needed to do so!

So when we glibly talk about something being from `another dimension` or `alternate universe` we might as well substitute those phrases for `fairyland` for all that we actually know about parallell worlds or how to travel to them.

We have been here before. In the early Twentieth Century, after radio waves and their uses were being explored, paranormal enthusiasts were full of talk about `vibrations` and `wavelengths` to talk about the possibility of the afterlife and so on. They were drawing from an analogy made from discoveries made about radiation - but their use of these pseudoscientific terms was just as superficial as the current talk of `the multiverse` etc.

Meanwhile the `Extraterrestrial Hypothesis` is suffering from the familiarity breeds contempt syndrome - it has been taken up by popular culture to the extent that people have become a bit tired of it. Also - it just seems too damned obvious, doesn't it?

We have all seen detective shows where the first - and most obvious - explanation for the crime or criminal is always the wrong one and the right explanation is later delivered via a surprise plot twist. This works well in fiction, but the real world does not follow these fictional requirements: sometimes the obvious answer is the right one.

So when looking at the small percentage of more exotic UFO encounters - these seem to involve what look like intelligently controlled craft which are not of earthly manufacture. Given that we know that other planets exist and that space travel is possible - then The ETH approach seems like a good starting point, whereas the interdimensional hypothesis (and for that matter the time traveller hypotesis) are based on highly speculative premises. and hence a weak place to start.



Oh, dear that's a bit messy, isn't it? That's an awful lot of explanations for what is a very, very rare phenomena (when you discount all the misidentifcations and hoaxes, that is). Given what I have just said above I'd only go with J, D, E and - in some specific cases -something between F and G.

I am surprised that you have not mentioned unkown (or partially unknown) atmospheric phenomna like ball lightning and so on. That should go in the mix, for sure!

I regard it as highly unlikely that any major world power has been manufacturing anything that resembles the UFOs seen at close quarters for the last 60 years. If they has such technology we would soon know about it, as it would have been deployed in conflicts. New military technology does not stay secret for very long (cf the atomic bomb).

I also want to add that, if the ET Hypothesis is correct, then the visitor's technology would be so far advance of our own as to explain all of the paraphysical aspects which the Interdimensional advocates speak of: objects seeming to disappear, shape shifting, `telepathic` effects,and hallucinatory episodes on the part of witnesses and all of that.
With due regard to Michio Kaku, sightings of inter-dimensional beings (often faeries and elementals) have been occurring for centuries - without the huge battery packs his equation requires.

The Fairy Census is a good start point:

http://www.fairyist.com/survey/
 

Carl Grove

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#9
Long since Goddard wrote that, the parallel universe, or multidimension explanation for UFOs (and indeed many other `paranormal` phenomena) has become very popular - and indeed quite lazily applied, in my view.

Parallel universes and the `multiverse` belong to the realm of speculative physics and we really don't know anything about them. There is no known and widely accepted case of anyone or anything travelling from one dimension to another.

Indeed one of the world's authorities on this topic - one Michio Kaku - has said that if one wanted to travel from one dimension to another then this would be no mean feat. He said that this would require a device the size of the solar system in order to generate the power needed to do so!

So when we glibly talk about something being from `another dimension` or `alternate universe` we might as well substitute those phrases for `fairyland` for all that we actually know about parallell worlds or how to travel to them.

We have been here before. In the early Twentieth Century, after radio waves and their uses were being explored, paranormal enthusiasts were full of talk about `vibrations` and `wavelengths` to talk about the possibility of the afterlife and so on. They were drawing from an analogy made from discoveries made about radiation - but their use of these pseudoscientific terms was just as superficial as the current talk of `the multiverse` etc.

Meanwhile the `Extraterrestrial Hypothesis` is suffering from the familiarity breeds contempt syndrome - it has been taken up by popular culture to the extent that people have become a bit tired of it. Also - it just seems too damned obvious, doesn't it?

We have all seen detective shows where the first - and most obvious - explanation for the crime or criminal is always the wrong one and the right explanation is later delivered via a surprise plot twist. This works well in fiction, but the real world does not follow these fictional requirements: sometimes the obvious answer is the right one.

So when looking at the small percentage of more exotic UFO encounters - these seem to involve what look like intelligently controlled craft which are not of earthly manufacture. Given that we know that other planets exist and that space travel is possible - then The ETH approach seems like a good starting point, whereas the interdimensional hypothesis (and for that matter the time traveller hypotesis) are based on highly speculative premises. and hence a weak place to start.



Oh, dear that's a bit messy, isn't it? That's an awful lot of explanations for what is a very, very rare phenomena (when you discount all the misidentifcations and hoaxes, that is). Given what I have just said above I'd only go with J, D, E and - in some specific cases -something between F and G.

I am surprised that you have not mentioned unkown (or partially unknown) atmospheric phenomna like ball lightning and so on. That should go in the mix, for sure!

I regard it as highly unlikely that any major world power has been manufacturing anything that resembles the UFOs seen at close quarters for the last 60 years. If they has such technology we would soon know about it, as it would have been deployed in conflicts. New military technology does not stay secret for very long (cf the atomic bomb).

I also want to add that, if the ET Hypothesis is correct, then the visitor's technology would be so far advance of our own as to explain all of the paraphysical aspects which the Interdimensional advocates speak of: objects seeming to disappear, shape shifting, `telepathic` effects,and hallucinatory episodes on the part of witnesses and all of that.
I sympathise a lot with what you're saying but I wouldn't be too fast to dismiss some of the more exotic theories, and I'd also dispute that UFOs constitute a "very, very rare" phenomenon. With tens of thousands of cases on record it is actually less rare than many other more accepted events. I would also agree that the intelligent balls of light, maybe creating hallucinations in witnesses, do require attention.

I don't think the alternative universe/dimension approach is so unjustified. Just a look at the many GITM cases on record now (there is currently an excellent thread on Reddit, Glitch in the Matrix, and at least 2 or 3 appear every day that seem very convincing) suggests that there could be something in it. One quite frequent type of glitch case, where people have a miraculous escape from death and subsequently find that lots of things (usually minor, but sometimes quite important) in their lives have changed in a disturbing way, is especially interesting.
 

Zeke Newbold

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#10
From the above responses I get the imporession that people have only skim read what I actually wrote and are busy shadow boxing with things that they think I have said.
Just to be clear: I am not opposed to speculation at all, and am indeed speculating myself! The gist of my post was that as speculation goes, the Extraterrestrial hypothesis still has a whole lot more going for than the competing Intradimensional approaches - because it's foundations are built on stuff that we actually know and can extrapolate from.

This is not a position I have reached lightly: I have done a volte face on this over the last decade or so. I was a Vallee style advocate
interdimensional/parapsychological explanations too but I am changing tack. I now think that the core UFO phenomena - that is, apparently structured craft seen doing things that our own technology cannot - is best explained with recourse to Extraterrestrial visitation - and even the `High Strangeness` end of the phenomena fits this too.

But, ofcourse, this is only speculation too.
Reply
I sympathise a lot with what you're saying but I wouldn't be too fast to dismiss some of the more exotic theories, and I'd also dispute that UFOs constitute a "very, very rare" phenomenon. With tens of thousands of cases on record it is actually less rare than many other more accepted events.
Any serious UFO researcher will tell you that `95 per cent of cases have mundane explanations and it is only the remaing 5 per cent that do not`. This is a cliche, of course,and these figures are made up just to illustrate the fact that the vast majority of UFO cases are misidentifications or hoaxes. If you take that into account, then we are looking at a very rare phenomena here.

I don't think the alternative universe/dimension approach is so unjustified. Just a look at the many GITM cases on record now (there is currently an excellent thread on Reddit, Glitch in the Matrix, and at least 2 or 3 appear every day that seem very convincing) suggests that there could be something in it. One quite frequent type of glitch case, where people have a miraculous escape from death and subsequently find that lots of things (usually minor, but sometimes quite important) in their lives have changed in a disturbing way, is especially interesting.
Yes, Iove this stuff and have read up on it too. The simple fact is we just don't know what is going on here. It is never a good idea to explain one anomalous phenomenon with recourse to another anomalous phenomenon!

The Mandela Effect, for example, might be an example of some unclassified mass psychological effect rather than any shifting between timelines and the things you mentioned above could be examples of parapsychology - precognition and so on, rather than anything else.
 

Carl Grove

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#11
From the above responses I get the imporession that people have only skim read what I actually wrote and are busy shadow boxing with things that they think I have said.
Just to be clear: I am not opposed to speculation at all, and am indeed speculating myself! The gist of my post was that as speculation goes, the Extraterrestrial hypothesis still has a whole lot more going for than the competing Intradimensional approaches - because it's foundations are built on stuff that we actually know and can extrapolate from.

This is not a position I have reached lightly: I have done a volte face on this over the last decade or so. I was a Vallee style advocate
interdimensional/parapsychological explanations too but I am changing tack. I now think that the core UFO phenomena - that is, apparently structured craft seen doing things that our own technology cannot - is best explained with recourse to Extraterrestrial visitation - and even the `High Strangeness` end of the phenomena fits this too.

But, ofcourse, this is only speculation too.
Reply


Any serious UFO researcher will tell you that `95 per cent of cases have mundane explanations and it is only the remaing 5 per cent that do not`. This is a cliche, of course,and these figures are made up just to illustrate the fact that the vast majority of UFO cases are misidentifications or hoaxes. If you take that into account, then we are looking at a very rare phenomena here.



Yes, Iove this stuff and have read up on it too. The simple fact is we just don't know what is going on here. It is never a good idea to explain one anomalous phenomenon with recourse to another anomalous phenomenon!

The Mandela Effect, for example, might be an example of some unclassified mass psychological effect rather than any shifting between timelines and the things you mentioned above could be examples of parapsychology - precognition and so on, rather than anything else.
I think we all know that the great majority of alleged UFOs can be explained -- estimates vary between 60% and 95% -- but even then, there are still many thousands of unexplained cases on the record, so I still wouldn't call it rare.
I wasn't trying to "explain" one phenomenon with another, but just responding to your comments about the dimensional/parallel universe kind of theory -- some of the glitch cases do suggest "conventional" ESP stuff, but the dimensional cases defy any easy categorisation. I don't as a rule search for the one correct theory, because that probably doesn't exist -- I prefer to look for patterns.
 

Fahrenheit 451

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#12
I think we all know that the great majority of alleged UFOs can be explained -- estimates vary between 60% and 95% -- but even then, there are still many thousands of unexplained cases on the record, so I still wouldn't call it rare.
I wasn't trying to "explain" one phenomenon with another, but just responding to your comments about the dimensional/parallel universe kind of theory -- some of the glitch cases do suggest "conventional" ESP stuff, but the dimensional cases defy any easy categorisation. I don't as a rule search for the one correct theory, because that probably doesn't exist -- I prefer to look for patterns.
Which is the point i was trying to make with the "messy" list - UFOs fall into a very small number of categories. I would love to hear the list added to - if I missed anything - or for a category to be challenged (apart from inter-dimensional).
 

Carl Grove

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#13
Which is the point i was trying to make with the "messy" list - UFOs fall into a very small number of categories. I would love to hear the list added to - if I missed anything - or for a category to be challenged (apart from inter-dimensional).
There are a few cases where the future time travellers theory might apply -- not many, though. Maybe our skies are full of things of all kinds from different places, times and dimensions.
 

eburacum

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#15
There is no known and widely accepted case of anyone or anything travelling from one dimension to another.
Indeed one of the world's authorities on this topic - one Michio Kaku - has said that if one wanted to travel from one dimension to another then this would be no mean feat. He said that this would require a device the size of the solar system in order to generate the power needed to do so!
deployed in conflicts.
I think I know what Kaku means by this. Traversable wormholes are very similar in geometry to a black hole, and black holes are very small for their mass - in order to create a traversable wormhole large enough to allow a person (or a probe) to pass through, it might be necessary to convert a mass as large as Jupiter (or even as large as the Sun) into a black hole, which could then be twisted into a wormhole using a very large quantity of exotic (negative-mass) matter.

Once you have a traversable wormhole, it is possible in theory to convert that wormhole into a time machine, assuming that relativity applies to such objects. As a further leap of speculation, a wormhole time machine could be used to create and travel between alternate timelines- very quickly, a civilisation with access to alternate timelines finds that it has access to an infinite, or near-infinite number of alternates. Some of these alternate timelines could be very weird.
 

Fahrenheit 451

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#16
I think I know what Kaku means by this. Traversable wormholes are very similar in geometry to a black hole, and black holes are very small for their mass - in order to create a traversable wormhole large enough to allow a person (or a probe) to pass through, it might be necessary to convert a mass as large as Jupiter (or even as large as the Sun) into a black hole, which could then be twisted into a wormhole using a very large quantity of exotic (negative-mass) matter.

Once you have a traversable wormhole, it is possible in theory to convert that wormhole into a time machine, assuming that relativity applies to such objects. As a further leap of speculation, a wormhole time machine could be used to create and travel between alternate timelines- very quickly, a civilisation with access to alternate timelines finds that it has access to an infinite, or near-infinite number of alternates. Some of these alternate timelines could be very weird.
I

Would this be considered para-physical (as per Goddard) or just another strand of advanced fantasy physics?

We are a strange species, we ignore what thousands of ordinary people witness (UFO's or Faeries) and listen with awe to a man who nobody understands at all - because he's called a Scientist.

Then when the scientist sees what ordinary people are seeing and has the courage to say so - his "career" is over. Ditto (until very lately perhaps) pilots.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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#17
I think I know what Kaku means by this. Traversable wormholes are very similar in geometry to a black hole, and black holes are very small for their mass - in order to create a traversable wormhole large enough to allow a person (or a probe) to pass through, it might be necessary to convert a mass as large as Jupiter (or even as large as the Sun) into a black hole, which could then be twisted into a wormhole using a very large quantity of exotic (negative-mass) matter.

Once you have a traversable wormhole, it is possible in theory to convert that wormhole into a time machine, assuming that relativity applies to such objects. As a further leap of speculation, a wormhole time machine could be used to create and travel between alternate timelines- very quickly, a civilisation with access to alternate timelines finds that it has access to an infinite, or near-infinite number of alternates. Some of these alternate timelines could be very weird.

I thought that, in theory, the Large Hadron Collider was capable of creating tiny black holes, and that's only 27km in circumference.
 

Zeke Newbold

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#18
I


We are a strange species, we ignore what thousands of ordinary people witness (UFO's or Faeries) and listen with awe to a man who nobody understands at all - because he's called a Scientist.
Now just you take that back, young man! Michio Kaku stands out from many of his scientist colleagues in (a) being willing to explain the science in `layman's` terms in an entertaining way that is not condescending and (b) having an open mind (and sense of humour).

He has publicly stated, more than once, that not all UFOs have prosaic explanations and that some could be extraterrestrial.

I do agree with you that there is a huge pressure to conform within the scientific community - and hence a whole load of things get overlooked. In fact most scientists are really just glorified industrialists tied to the development of some product, the need for which is determined by the profit motive.

Nevertheless, if someone breaks into my flat I will call the police in the first instance. And if something strange is going on in the universe i will call a scientist in the first instance.In neither case does this imply that I completely trust them.
 

eburacum

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#19
A
I thought that, in theory, the Large Hadron Collider was capable of creating tiny black holes, and that's only 27km in circumference.
Yes, but the black holes created by the LHC would be tiny, far too small to be traversable, and would last a fraction of a second before evaporating through Hawking radiation.
 

Fahrenheit 451

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#20
Now just you take that back, young man! Michio Kaku stands out from many of his scientist colleagues in (a) being willing to explain the science in `layman's` terms in an entertaining way that is not condescending and (b) having an open mind (and sense of humour).

He has publicly stated, more than once, that not all UFOs have prosaic explanations and that some could be extraterrestrial.

I do agree with you that there is a huge pressure to conform within the scientific community - and hence a whole load of things get overlooked. In fact most scientists are really just glorified industrialists tied to the development of some product, the need for which is determined by the profit motive.

Nevertheless, if someone breaks into my flat I will call the police in the first instance. And if something strange is going on in the universe i will call a scientist in the first instance.In neither case does this imply that I completely trust them.
I have an honours degree in science - but I put more trust in the likes of Dolores Cannon, than advanced particle physicists.

The police, by the way, will arrive the next day, look concerned, explain how this happens a lot and give you a crime number for the insurers. Your victim of crime literature will arrive within a week.

The physicist will just tweak his perspective and equation to account for it (in his own good time).
 

Carl Grove

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#21
I'm afraid most of us -- including scientists -- are indoctrinated into the prevailing beliefs (or lack of belief) of their prevailing culture. As someone who had already had a lot of "paranormal" experiences, when I reached my final year in Psychology, one of the students (I forget the context) raised the question of telepathy. There was an embarrassed silence and I felt embarrassed myself. I suddenly realised that I was being absorbed into a system which tended to reject my own experiences, and I was going along with it. It was like a price I had to pay to get accepted. It wasn't until a decade later that I finally lost the desire to be part of the establishment altogether. When we discuss all these topics on here and someone comes up with all the "scientific" reasons to dismiss whatever it is as nonsense, or not proven, or whatever they say, I can see myself as I was then and identify with them, to some degree! No-one would ever admit to being closed-minded, of course, that is all part of the unspoken rules of the game.
 

Fahrenheit 451

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#22
I'm afraid most of us -- including scientists -- are indoctrinated into the prevailing beliefs (or lack of belief) of their prevailing culture. As someone who had already had a lot of "paranormal" experiences, when I reached my final year in Psychology, one of the students (I forget the context) raised the question of telepathy. There was an embarrassed silence and I felt embarrassed myself. I suddenly realised that I was being absorbed into a system which tended to reject my own experiences, and I was going along with it. It was like a price I had to pay to get accepted. It wasn't until a decade later that I finally lost the desire to be part of the establishment altogether. When we discuss all these topics on here and someone comes up with all the "scientific" reasons to dismiss whatever it is as nonsense, or not proven, or whatever they say, I can see myself as I was then and identify with them, to some degree! No-one would ever admit to being closed-minded, of course, that is all part of the unspoken rules of the game.
We can even quote little bits of theory in the happy pretence that we understand it.
 

EnolaGaia

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#23
... No-one would ever admit to being closed-minded, of course, that is all part of the unspoken rules of the game.
This is equally applicable to true believers, whose unshakeable commitment to their personal interpretations of their own experiences prevents them from conceding possible alternatives.

A rigid mindset absorbed from a sub-culture with which one self-identifies is not necessarily any less a dogma than the orthodoxy of the mainstream.
 

feinman

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#24
Long since Goddard wrote that, the parallel universe, or multidimension explanation for UFOs (and indeed many other `paranormal` phenomena) has become very popular - and indeed quite lazily applied, in my view.

Parallel universes and the `multiverse` belong to the realm of speculative physics and we really don't know anything about them. There is no known and widely accepted case of anyone or anything travelling from one dimension to another.

Indeed one of the world's authorities on this topic - one Michio Kaku - has said that if one wanted to travel from one dimension to another then this would be no mean feat. He said that this would require a device the size of the solar system in order to generate the power needed to do so!

So when we glibly talk about something being from `another dimension` or `alternate universe` we might as well substitute those phrases for `fairyland` for all that we actually know about parallell worlds or how to travel to them.

We have been here before. In the early Twentieth Century, after radio waves and their uses were being explored, paranormal enthusiasts were full of talk about `vibrations` and `wavelengths` to talk about the possibility of the afterlife and so on. They were drawing from an analogy made from discoveries made about radiation - but their use of these pseudoscientific terms was just as superficial as the current talk of `the multiverse` etc.

Meanwhile the `Extraterrestrial Hypothesis` is suffering from the familiarity breeds contempt syndrome - it has been taken up by popular culture to the extent that people have become a bit tired of it. Also - it just seems too damned obvious, doesn't it?

We have all seen detective shows where the first - and most obvious - explanation for the crime or criminal is always the wrong one and the right explanation is later delivered via a surprise plot twist. This works well in fiction, but the real world does not follow these fictional requirements: sometimes the obvious answer is the right one.

So when looking at the small percentage of more exotic UFO encounters - these seem to involve what look like intelligently controlled craft which are not of earthly manufacture. Given that we know that other planets exist and that space travel is possible - then The ETH approach seems like a good starting point, whereas the interdimensional hypothesis (and for that matter the time traveller hypotesis) are based on highly speculative premises. and hence a weak place to start.



Oh, dear that's a bit messy, isn't it? That's an awful lot of explanations for what is a very, very rare phenomena (when you discount all the misidentifcations and hoaxes, that is). Given what I have just said above I'd only go with J, D, E and - in some specific cases -something between F and G.

I am surprised that you have not mentioned unkown (or partially unknown) atmospheric phenomna like ball lightning and so on. That should go in the mix, for sure!

I regard it as highly unlikely that any major world power has been manufacturing anything that resembles the UFOs seen at close quarters for the last 60 years. If they has such technology we would soon know about it, as it would have been deployed in conflicts. New military technology does not stay secret for very long (cf the atomic bomb).

I also want to add that, if the ET Hypothesis is correct, then the visitor's technology would be so far advance of our own as to explain all of the paraphysical aspects which the Interdimensional advocates speak of: objects seeming to disappear, shape shifting, `telepathic` effects,and hallucinatory episodes on the part of witnesses and all of that.
Exactly. Better to start off with the idea they are simply ET before launching off on more exotic ideas; they are just advanced enough to frustrate our complete understanding --which is understandable! A contiguous universe, hyperdimensional travel might also be possible, but better to start off simply.
 

Carl Grove

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#25
This is equally applicable to true believers, whose unshakeable commitment to their personal interpretations of their own experiences prevents them from conceding possible alternatives.

A rigid mindset absorbed from a sub-culture with which one self-identifies is not necessarily any less a dogma than the orthodoxy of the mainstream.
Yes, it's the same phenomenon, psychologically. Same with religion, we have the mainstream ("orthodox") belief system, and then the rivals, sects and cults of various kinds. Politics -- the leading parties and then the minority groups. I think it all goes back to our remote ancestors -- when having a tribal group, bound together by a common belief system (no matter how out of touch with reality), had survival value.
 

dr wu

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#26
Exactly. Better to start off with the idea they are simply ET before launching off on more exotic ideas; they are just advanced enough to frustrate our complete understanding --which is understandable! A contiguous universe, hyperdimensional travel might also be possible, but better to start off simply.
Yes...more advanced beings would certainly be different than us beyond the simple fact that they are aliens...but imho this does not explain all the truly bizarre and very strange 'events' and 'contacts' ,etc over the decades and even centuries......I have never believed that aliens coming here would look, act, or behave in the manner that we get reported by many witnesses over the years. If so then they are simply 'bat shit crazy' aliens imho.
;)
 

feinman

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#27
Yes...more advanced beings would certainly be different than us beyond the simple fact that they are aliens...but imho this does not explain all the truly bizarre and very strange 'events' and 'contacts' ,etc over the decades and even centuries......I have never believed that aliens coming here would look, act, or behave in the manner that we get reported by many witnesses over the years. If so then they are simply 'bat shit crazy' aliens imho.
;)
Right, the high srangeness and motley crews of some objects are extremely perplexing; I don't have an answer for those...
 

Fahrenheit 451

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#28
This is equally applicable to true believers, whose unshakeable commitment to their personal interpretations of their own experiences prevents them from conceding possible alternatives.

A rigid mindset absorbed from a sub-culture with which one self-identifies is not necessarily any less a dogma than the orthodoxy of the mainstream.

I think this is why the "messy" model is the most plausible - UFOs are many different things.
 
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