What If... (Alternative Histories of WW2)

[McAvennie]

I remember seeing a show the other day on History channel or something about alternate histories. The one I saw was based on what would have happened if Hitler had invaded Britain. It was a really good show and played out what would have happened. They had it all planned out what they would do and basically we were screwed, they had us good and proper. I went for my dinner and missed the end but I guess some good old wartime hero like George Formby or Gary Sparrow came through and saved us but it was a really good programme.
Anyone see it or know anything about the German blueprint for taking over Britain.

 

[Anonymous]

Do you think this country would be significantly different if Germany had won the war ?
I do not think that now, 60 years later, it would.

However, don't think for a minute that I am in any way advocating Hitler or what the Nazis did.

 

[McAvennie]

In the programme they said that initially the Germans rule would have seemed OK, they were instructed to be overly polite and to pay for any goods not just ransack places.
They did however have plans set in place to round up Jews from around the country and relocate them all to East London or somewhere before moving them down on trains to the coasts and finally transporting them to camps on mainland Europe.
So had it all worked Britain would have been a less Jewish place for starters.
They had a guy pre-arranged to be leader of Britain and I guess once the war was over (had they won) things would have carried on.
I imagine there would have been dual language lessons and they would have slowly integrated German into our daily lives. I find it hard to imagine how things could have remained the same unless they came to some kind of amicable agreement with the U.S.
I can see that happening that they would have co-operated but a Europe mainly controlled by Germany would have been a threat to the U.S. so things probably wouldn't have worked. I cannot see how the U.S. could have launched an offensive without a viable ally in Europe.
I'm also guessing that Britain wouldn't have become as multi-cultural. The world would probably be a lot more divided and we would feel more like Europeans than Americans here in Britain.
Thats my view anyway.

 

[Pete Younger]

we would feel more like Europeans than Americans here in Britain.
Thats my view anyway.

No it couldn't be that good, there must be a flaw in your reasoning.

 

[OneWingedBird]

It does raise the question of how long the 3rd Reich could have lasted if Germany hadn't been defeated, considering the kind of people Hitler had appointed as his henchmen and government I'd question how stable it would be once the problem of outside enemies was dealt with - the Nazis weren't generally too worried about slotting each other when it suited their political needs and their overall mentality tended to favour control over co-operation.

I don't think it entirely unfeasible that the whole thing could have descended into internicene infighting relatively quickly.

 

[JamesWhitehead]

I didn't see this show but for an amazing fictional view of Nazi
Britain see "It Happened Here."

It hurts.

 

[Anonymous]

I think if the Germans had invaded the UK and imposed their system, this wouldn't have lasted longer than the occupation of France, Holland, etc. because both the USSR and the US would have possibly sped up the invasion of Western Europe. I guess the Russians could have easily gone across the Channel competing with the Yankees - don't you know that Zhukov's plan was to go as far as Gibraltar? That would be a sweet life for you guys - building Communism under 5-year plans, comrades?

But the Supreme Council of Druids saved England again - the second time after Napoleon's plans. Seriously, I read about the group of 9 high druids who at the peak of possible Hitler's invasion went into the Channel all holding hands and saying prayers and staying in the water for a goodish long time - enough to make Berlin change its mind.

 

[ogopogo3]

There was also that horrible Rutger Hauer movie Fatherland, which takes place in an alternate universe where Hitler has overtaken all of Europe and fought the US to a stalemate. It takes place in the 1960s, where Joseph Kennedy is president and no one in the States still has any idea what's happened to Europe's Jews.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109779/combined

 

[Anome]

There is a school of thought that says the Reich didn't want to invade Britain - they knew they'd never be able to hold it. They just wanted to stop Britain from interfering in their attempt to annex Europe.

Defeating them, and installing a sympathetic government, rather than actual occupation, would have been better for them. It wouldn't have stretched their resources as much. Even then, who knows what the British resistance would be like? The French were largely complacent before occupation, and had one of the best organised and vicious resistance movements (thanks at least in part to assistance from Britain and the US). The British had been stirred into a patriotic fervour against Hitler already.

 

[Alexius4]

A fair few years ago, I loked into the issue of the consequences of Sealion had it come off, within the context of a cataloguing of the remaining defences from the period (archaeology at its most romantic - surveying concrete blocks...

Basicly, it looks a lot like we would have been stuffed - our defences were just not up to it, though it was a good effort given the problems of possessing a gigantic coastline to fortify.

But it does transpire that the German military at least took the project seriously; a thorough survey was carried out by air and through ground agents, going so far as to identify the buildings they would use to establish command points and administrative centres. For instance, in Aberdeen they rather fancied Mareshal College as an admin centre (they would - being the biggest granite gothic building after the Escorial) and had ear marked the present Salvation Army centre on the square as the headquarters for the SS.

 

[Anonymous]

Gloria X- 'I think if the Germans had invaded the UK and imposed their system, this wouldn't have lasted longer than the occupation of France, Holland, etc. because both the USSR and the US would have possibly sped up the invasion of Western Europe. I guess the Russians could have easily gone across the Channel competing with the Yankees - don't you know that Zhukov's plan was to go as far as Gibraltar? That would be a sweet life for you guys - building Communism under 5-year plans, comrades? '

Which would have made the Cold War interesting. I wonder what effect it would have had on the McCarthy era commie witch-hunt? Would any of it even have happened?
Hitler never wanted a big war with Britain, as he saw it as detrimental to the health of the British Empire, which was the icing on the cake, and he considered the country fairly worthless without it. But it was also Britains Achillie's Heel, the country relied heavily on imports. Britain wasn't really in a position to go to war, the financial costs of WW1 were still being felt, and defence spending was under 5%, an all time low. The financial crisis of '31 left millions unemployed.Even after his grab at Czechoslovakia, the British still saw Fascism as preferrable to Communism, hence the popularity of charactures such as Oswald Mosely, who was more than the fringe loony he is made to look today.
Even after Britain, unexpectedly soon to Hitler, declared war, there was still a push for appeasement with Germany, and if Hitler had won the Battle of the Atlantic and cut off trade routes completely, Britain would have been on it's knees. Either way, most likely Britain would have ended up ( maybe fairly happily ) a puppet state in a highly unstable Fascist Empire, without much of a battle. In which case, Hitler would then have concentrated on fighting Stalin, and possibly even defeating him, before the Pacific War brought in the US.
So no Allies, no Siege of Leningrad, no Soviet Union, a Eurasia in civil war, no 1960's, no space-race, maybe even no atomic bomb, an Imperial Japan, a terrified Australia ( if it even still existed), and a very isolated Americas.
The implication are scary, which ever way you look at it!

 

[Anonymous]

It does raise the question of how long the 3rd Reich could have lasted if Germany hadn't been defeated

not verry long.

The economy was already runing into the ground, there was no money left, food shortages where getting worse and worse...it would have colaposed in on itself within a year.

 

[SoundDust]

I think if the Germans had invaded the UK and imposed their system, this wouldn't have lasted longer than the occupation of France, Holland, etc. because both the USSR and the US would have possibly sped up the invasion of Western Europe. I guess the Russians could have easily gone across the Channel competing with the Yankees - don't you know that Zhukov's plan was to go as far as Gibraltar? That would be a sweet life for you guys - building Communism under 5-year plans, comrades?

iirc (from history lessons from the mid 90's for this), Stalin didn't beleive Germany was threatening Russia, even after Germany had actually invaded Russia, and it took a while for him to mobilise defences against them. of course, if they hadn't and had pressed on only against western Europe I don't think it would have been too long before Russia and America saw them as a serious threat.

[edit]checked, twas the Nazi-Soviet pact of 1939 for taking over Poland I was thinking of, where Nazi Germany said they wouldn't invade Russia, and operation barbarossa in 1941 where they did invade Russia

 

[Melf]

if germany had control of europe and britan, the riech would have only lasted a couple 100 yrs. by internal fighting.

eg roman empire part II

 

[Anonymous]

old on... Sealion woudl have been a bloodbath for the Germans. Slow towed barges towed across the channel?.. RAF bases within seconds of targets?.. how many times can a Spitfire be refuled and re loaded in a day?... lots is the answer...minced barges...and plans to pour stockpiled petrol and oil round the coast and set it alight!... There is this idea that The nazi war mechien was invincable and well organized...well we were better.. we won the battle of britain and therfore effectively the war.

 

[Anonymous]

<<<iirc (from history lessons from the mid 90's for this), Stalin didn't beleive Germany was threatening Russia, even after Germany had actually invaded Russia, and it took a while for him to mobilise defences against them. >>>

That's true. Comrade Stalin and Foreign Minister Molotov (who had signed the pact with the Nazis) were reluctant to believe that the threat of war was so close, in spite of many reports by our spies in both Western Europe and Japan. No troops were brought to the border while scores of German troops were being shipped within the visibility range. The best, most experienced army generals had been destroyed during the 1930s purges - replaced by incompetent yes-men and idiots. This stupidity in the atmosphere of fear and party 'discipline' has cost us millions in dead and captured just in the first few weeks. My late grandfather told us that his whole detachment of new recruits initially had only one rifle - one for all. (Later, of course, things got better - but not before 1942-43 when the factories in the Urals and Siberia began large-scale ammunition and tank manufacturing.) The remains of the army had to run for their lives, while locals and peasntry could not believe they were being abandoned by their own troops. Took them 3 years to get back to the same positions. The soldiers had tears in their eyes as they were being led eastwards - the Germans were rolling in really fast in their motorised divisions. Huge tragedy.

 

[sunsplash1]

From an Australian perspective. If the Reich (Axis powers) won mainland Oz would be Japanese and Tassie would be a German outpost.

What would Amerika be like?

 

[Anome]

Actually, I don't buy that. I don't think the Japanese could have held Australia. It's just too damned big.

Besides, they couldn't hold PNG, which is much smaller.

Certainly, the political situation in the PacRim would be very different. In all likelihood, Australia would end up as the last bastion of Britain, and post-war migration from European countries would probably have been much lower.

And what about New Zealand?

 

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Ogopogo
There was also that horrible Rutger Hauer movie Fatherland, which takes place in an alternate universe where Hitler has overtaken all of Europe and fought the US to a stalemate. It takes place in the 1960s, where Joseph Kennedy is president and no one in the States still has any idea what's happened to Europe's Jews.

Actually, the book of Fatherland (written by Robert Harris, same chap who wrote Enigma) is a lot better than the film, and quite interesting in a counter-historical way. For some reason Robert Harris's books seem doomed to be appalling films... I had to switch off Enigma half way through, which doesn't often happen to me in films...

 

[Anonymous]

Actually, I don't buy that. I don't think the Japanese could have held Australia. It's just too damned big.

Besides, they couldn't hold PNG, which is much smaller.

Certainly, the political situation in the PacRim would be very different. In all likelihood, Australia would end up as the last bastion of Britain, and post-war migration from European countries would probably have been much lower.

And what about New Zealand?

IIRC Canada was the destination of the Royal family if Britain fell, so the last Bastions of Britain would have probably been an axis between Canada/Australia/New Zealand with some outposts in India which was largely British Owned. The political situation in India would have been interesting. Some High Caste Hindus on the side of the Nazi's, the rest picking the lesser of two evils and entire family units raiding from the High lands of Burma...

Side bar, a friend of mine collects WW2 bravery awards for Commonwealth Soldiers from India. One, that he has framed, is for a man who, with a side arm and a bike, held up a German tank column in a ravine while the supply train he was escorting escaped. He then got away with his life... and his bike. Reading over some of the other bravery awards for that particular part of the armed service, his level of improvisation was pretty typical...

 

[posterinacoma]

Basicly, it looks a lot like we would have been stuffed - our defences were just not up to it, though it was a good effort given the problems of possessing a gigantic coastline to fortify.

Churchill was pretty confident that invasion could be repelled (which doesn't make him right of course!). Been reading his "History of the WWII" so I suppose most these thoughts are gleaned from that:

As far as I've read it, no-one ever imagined that coastal fixed positions could turn back a landing, because of the enormous length of coastline. The idea was to quickly counter-attack against any beach-head with an overwhelming reserve force held inland. Coastal defences were, of course, meant to hold the enemy back but only for a matter of hours. The COS and Churchill were acutely aware of not making the same mistake as France (in fact they were amazed that the French had made such an error) when they spread their forces, defending the entire front, and keeping nothing in tactical reserve to counterattack.

After Dunkirk, there were plenty of troops in Britain (re-equiping was then the problem). The Navy and RAF were confident that they could detect the invasion force in the water and decemate it there. And even before that, that they would spot the embarkation points due to the enormous amount of landing craft and attack it before it even left.

The rest of the world (including the US) were pretty dubious about Britain's chances but Churchill and the Brass, were quietly confident and at least expected a "fair" fight to take place.

Of course there are endless probabilities. I think the last 60 years would have been incredible if it had all come off. I mean, we wouldn't be able to think any other way; we'd have all been taught since birth that Hitler was a God, how glorious the Reich was, how our grandparents and parents had proudly and righteously helped to cleanse Europe of sub-humans etc..

bluerk, ignorance is bliss and all that, but no thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, if the Nazi's had invaded I certainly wouldn't be here. My family with their semitic name and looks wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes.....

 

[_Lizard23_]

From an Australian perspective. If the Reich (Axis powers) won mainland Oz would be Japanese and Tassie would be a German outpost.

What would Amerika be like?

I heartily recommend 'The Man in the High Castle' by Phillip K. Dick for an alternate present Japanese USA and German Europe, as well as the usual PKD mindfuck.

 

[Anonymous]

I heartily recommend 'The Man in the High Castle' by Phillip K. Dick for an alternate present Japanese USA and German Europe, as well as the usual PKD mindfuck.

Damn! I was just about to post that.

Much better than Fatherland and ofcorse I won't spoil the book by telling everyone that...

 

[Onix_Martinez]

There's a compilation of short tales, including "Man in the High Castle", entitled "Hitler Victorious". It's worth checking out if you can fin it. I particularly like one story entitled "Thor meets Captain America", full of supernatural stuff and with a pretty good reason for all the mass killings of jews and other ethnic groups that the nazis were not very fond of.

 

[Alexius4]

I while since I looked into this, but as I recall the invasion would have gone alot like the occupation of Norway (another facet; the Wehrmacht had had a lot of practise, so were pretty slick). Gliders and paratroopers on key communications targets, the air force on the airbases and logigistics nexii, sabateurs taking down communcations and causing distractions, and the main landings at multiple points.

Given the disparity in experience, skill and material between the sides (the Wehrmacht had the edge in all respects), I believe there is a very good chance they could have pulled it off. Afterwards, I'd like to think they'd have been punished by a vicious partizan war, but taking the occupation of the Channel Islands as a model, I wonder how extentsive the collaboration would have been had the UK been granted autonomy along the lines of Vichy France.

(incidentally, the whole show depending on air superiority, the Battle of Britain complicated matters no end; then the opening of the Eastern Front meant the resources stacked up on the Atlantic seaboard needed to be redirected. End of show)

 

[posterinacoma]

Totally agree Alexius, air superioty was pivotal.

I also think that the resistance would have been great (based on nothing but my gut feeling!). Like all places I'm sure it would have been a complicated mix of active collaboration, simply getting on with it, passive reisistance and active resistance. I'm from Channel Islands, which are in themselves a unique case in this context, and I'm sure all of these co-existed here.

 

[Alexius4]

I recall reading of how a number of Chamberlian's cabinet favoured capitualation at the outset - Churchill squashed that one.

All very vague I know, but I do recall a documentary some years ago about the Channel Islands occupation bearing out P in a C's words - there was resistence & collaboration of all shades. Whether it can be taken as a microcosm of the British Isles is a debatable point, but it is a concrete example of a part of the UK occupied.