What Were Joan Of Arc's 'Voices'?

[MrRING]

This probably can't be decided conclusively, but what do you think was going on with the experiences that Joan of Arc said spoke to her?

 

[Pete Younger]

Quite a few of the members on here have heard voices, just as well they weren't around then, they'd have been starting wars left right and centre.

 

[oll_lewis]

considering that she eventully failed and was captured by the english and her actions had very little bearing on the future of the Anglo-French conflict (AFAIK) I would say that kind of rules out God being that closely involved in the insident.

 

[lopaka]

Changes thread title to History of the Hundred Years War

I agree that God being involved seems pretty unlikely. But she surely is one of the more remarkable historical persons of all time. She did lead the French to victories. One could argue that was the begining of the end for the English as she was a key figure in the French developing a national identity, which was certainly one factor that eventually doomed the English. And her side did prevail in the end. After all, the English once controlled something like half of France. Now they have the Channel Islands. :blah:

I haven't voted because I've pondered her before and have never really been able to come to any leanings as to exactly what was going on.

 

[oll_lewis]

well technicly going back in history the french owned england and a little bit of Wales (not sure on the situation with scotland at the time). The normans ruled a large swave of normany (in france where they were from) long before william the bastard had his name changed to william the cocourer in 1066. so the anglo-france wars really started off by france fighting normandy and normanydy used their lands in britain for a good recruteing ground.

I don't know much more than that on the aglo-french wars though so I'll try to stay out of this debate best i can

 

[Alexius4]

Thing is, during the 14th and 15th centuries, France as we know it didn't really exist. There were a grouping of more or less independent and very argumentative dukedoms, prinicipalites and counties who were unitied by a notional vassalage to King. That vassalage was often exceedingly notional - Burgundy, for instance, was certainly an independent agent with great power and prestige. The story of that time is of the King trying to assert his aurthority and failing to a greater or lesser extent.

It just so happened that the Plantagenants were vassals of the Capetians in so far as they were the overlords of Gascony, and (if I remember correctly) had a claim to Normandy as well. Having a powerful monarch as a vassal is frankly a pain in the arse, and so conflict was inevitable and prettey much constant throughout the 13th, 14th, and early 15th centuries.

This is important, as the conflicts were essentially Baronial rather than nationalistic in character. And, some contempory historians argue, Joan is largely a figment of the imagination of 19th century romantic nationalists.

I tend to go with the view that she existed, and played a local role, but was ultimately of little or no consequence. Her significence comes later as a symbol of French nationhood.

Will try to fish out some links to back this ramble up

 

[Alexius4]

De Re Militari

Online Medieval Studies

Two first-class sites if this kind of thing fries your onions.

 

[Anonymous]

I saw a documentary the other day that said that although Joan of Arc was defeated, she did fulfil all her prophecies. It was only when she went on doing things other than what the voices had told her to do that she got captured. If thats true its pretty interesting.

 

[Alexius4]

The sites given above contain primary sources dealing with her career.

There were other figures who acted as precedents; for example, the Children's Crusade of the early 13th century was led by two young things who had been granted the gift of visions. The later Shepherds Crusade was, if I recall correctly, also visionary in origin.

Joan fits into this distinctively Frankish tradition (it wasn't held by everybody in Christiandom - the Normans, for instance, had a track record for cynicism when it came to divine revelations with a political bearing).

It's difficult to see Joan through all the subsequent hype - but, if you wish, the sources are there in all there pdf glory

 

[MrRING]

A pretty conclusive Joan of Arc site:

http://members.aol.com/hywwebsite/private/joanofarc.html

With trial transcripts and letters & the like. HEre is an example of a letter she sent to the English forces:

"You, men of England, who have no rightn to this Kingdom of France, the King of Heaven orders and notifies you through me, Joan the Maiden, to leave your fortresses and go back to your own country; or I will produce a clash of arms to be eternally remembered. And this is the third and last time I have written to you; I shall not write anything further.
Jesus, Mary;
Joan the Maiden

I have sent you my letters honorably, but you detain my heralds; for you have detained my herald called Guyenne. Please send him back to me, and I will send some of your men captured in the fortress of Saint Loup, for they are not all dead."

 

[krobone]

There is one other possibility not listed on the poll: Joan faked it.

Maybe she wanted to live a life of adventure, but of course women weren't really allowed to do such things at that time. A brilliant strategy to get around it would be to fake divine guidance.

 

[rynner2]

The most interesting thing about Joan, for me, is not the voices but the fact that the story of her being burned at the stake by the English may not be true, as there are reports of her being seen afterwards, and getting married, etc.

(Don't have time right now to google up any links, I have email problems that need fixing...)

 

[MrRING]

Two great bits from the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_arc
1. About the voices:

Visions
Many contemporary attempts to explain Joan's visions have been based on the commonly-held belief that her visions were described merely as auditory sensations which only she could hear. Analyses based on this idea have led to the belief that she was experiencing hallucinations brought on by mental illness, ranging from schizophrenia to temporal lobe epilepsy and even Bovine Tuberculosis. However, the historical documents describe her visions quite differently than the common conception of the subject, containing quotes from Joan stating that these visions instead were often visual and tactile, and could take solid, physical form that she and other people could see and touch. These quotes and other documents state that people such as the Count of Clermont, Guy de Cailly, etc, could simultaneously experience her visions.

2. Never heard about the Fake Joans!

False "Joans of Arc"
After the execution of the Maid of Orleans, there were number of impostors who claimed to be Joan, having escaped from the fire. Most of these were swiftly exposed but two of the most famous are known as Jeanne de Armoises and Jehanne de Sermaises, although contemporary accounts are sketchy at best.

According to a later story (found 1686 in Metz), Jeanne appeared for the first time in May 20, 1436 in Metz where she met with two brothers of Joan – Pierre and Jehan – and convinced them that she was their deceased sister. Whether the brothers really did believe or feigned belief for their own reasons is impossible to say. For the next three years the town of Orleans stopped the memorial services for the Maid of Orleans and, according to town records, paid some of her expenses.

Afterwards, the false Joan supposedly moved to Arlon in Luxembourg where she reputedly met Madame de Luxembourg. Later she married a knight: Robert des Hermoises or Armoises.

The false Joan dealt with the king Charles VII via letters for the next four years. Around 1440 she finally received an audience with him. According to a later account of the king's chamberlain de Boisy, the king asked her about the secret he and Joan had shared; reputedly it was that the king had suspected he might have been illegitimate. She did not know the secret so she kneeled, confessed and begged for mercy. Later she was forced to admit her imposture in public. Still, there are contemporary claims that Joan's brothers had with them a woman they called their sister around 1449-1452.

In 1457, when the maid had been "rehabilitated", there was a woman called Jehanne de Sermaises in Anjou. De Sermaises was accused of having called herself the Maid of Orleans; wearing male dress; and deceiving many people. She was sentenced to prison but released in February 1457 on the condition that she would "bear herself honestly in dress" (i.e. use female clothing). Afterwards she disappeared from public records.

 

[Cavynaut]

There is one other possibility not listed on the poll: Joan faked it.

There is another one.....maybe she ate the 'wrong' kind of mushrooms?

 

[ogopogo3]

The most interesting thing about Joan, for me, is not the voices but the fact that the story of her being burned at the stake by the English may not be true, as there are reports of her being seen afterwards, and getting married, etc.

I remember reading in one of those Ripley's paperbacks that witnesses saw her exhale a dove with her dying breath.

 

[MrRING]

The current Wikipedia article has some new info on the visions/voices:

Visions

Jeanne d' Arc by Eugene Thirion. Late nineteenth century images such as this often had political undertones because France had ceded Joan of Arc's home region to Germany in 1871. Chautou, church of Notre Dame (1876).Joan of Arc's religious visions have interested many people. All agree that her faith was sincere. She identified St. Margaret, St. Catherine, and St. Michael as the source of her revelations, although there is some ambiguity as to which of several identically named saints these might mean. Devout Roman Catholics regard her visions as divine inspiration. Other explanations posit hallucination, mental illness, or self-delusion. Scholars who propose psychiatric explanations such as schizophrenia consider Joan a figurehead rather than an active leader.[52] Among other hypotheses are a handful of neurological conditions that can cause complex hallucinations in otherwise sane and healthy people, such as temporal lobe epilepsy. Ralph Hoffman, professor of psychology at Yale University, states that "hearing voices is not necessarily a sign of mental illness," and names Joan of Arc's religious inspiration as a possible exception without speculation as to alternative causes.[53]

Psychiatric explanations encounter some difficulties. One is the slim likelihood that a mentally ill person could gain favor in the court of Charles VII. This king's own father had been popularly known as "Charles the Mad" and much of the political and military decline that had occurred in France during the previous decades could be attributed to the power vacuum that his episodes of insanity had produced. The old king had believed he was made of glass, a delusion no courtier had mistaken for a religious awakening. Fears that Charles VII would manifest the same insanity may have factored in the attempt to disinherit him at Troyes. Contemporaries of the next generation would attribute inherited madness to the breakdown that England's King Henry VI was to suffer in 1453: Henry VI was nephew to Charles VII and grandson to Charles VI. As royal counselor Jacques Gélu cautioned upon Joan of Arc's arrival at Chinon, "One should not lightly alter any policy because of conversation with a girl, a peasant...so susceptible to illusions; one should not make oneself ridiculous in the sight of foreign nations..." Contrary to modern stereotypes about the middle ages, this particular royal court was shrewd and skeptical on the subject of mental health.[54][55]

Another conflicting circumstance is the intellectual decline that normally accompanies major mental illnesses. Joan of Arc remained astute to the end of her life. Rehabilitation trial testimony frequently marvels at her intelligence. "Often they [the judges] turned from one question to another, changing about, but, notwithstanding this, she answered prudently, and evinced a wonderful memory."[56] Her subtle replies under interrogation even forced the court to stop holding public sessions.[57]

The only detailed source of information about Joan of Arc's visions is the condemnation trial transcript, a complex and problematic document in which she resisted the court's inquiries and refused to swear the customary oath on the subject of her revelations. Régine Pernoud, a prominent historian, was sometimes sarcastic about speculative medical interpretations: in response to one such theory alleging that Joan of Arc suffered from bovine tuberculosis as a result of drinking unpasteurized milk, Pernoud wrote that if drinking unpasteurized milk can produce such potential benefits for the nation, then the French government should stop mandating the pasteurization of milk.[58]

 

[MrRING]

LINK

Bone fragment likely not Joan of Arc

By CHRISTIAN PANVERT, Associated Press Writer

CHINON, France - A rib bone and a piece of cloth supposedly recovered after Joan of Arc was burned at the stake are probably not hers, according to experts trying to unravel one of the mysteries surrounding the 15th century French heroine.

Eighteen experts began a series of tests six months ago on the fragments reportedly recovered from the pyre where the 19-year-old was burned for heresy. Although the tests have not been completed, findings so far indicate there is "relatively little chance" that the remnants are hers, Philippe Charlier, the head of the team, told The Associated Press on Saturday.

The fragment of linen from the 15th century "wasn't burned. It was dyed," Charlier said. And a blackened substance around the 6-inch rib bone was not "carbonized remains" but vegetable and mineral debris, "something that rather resembles embalming substance," he said.

Joan of Arc was burned to death on May 30, 1431 in the Normandy town of Rouen following a trial. Legend has it that her ashes were scattered in the Seine River. The rib bone and piece of cloth were supposedly recovered from the pyre by an unidentified person and conserved by an apothecary until 1867, before being turned over to the archdiocese of Tours. They are now stored at a museum in Chinon, about 150 miles southwest of Paris.

In 1909, scientists declared it "highly probable" that the remains were those of Joan of Arc. Given developments in genetic technology in recent years, researchers decided to test the remains again to try to determine if they were definitely hers.

But the probability that the remains are those of Joan of Arc are "enormously lessening," Charlier said. "We're instead moving toward the hypotheses of a fake relic or of a relic that was transformed."

"It could be that these are human remains of the 15th century subjected to a sort of embalming or protection as happened when relics were manipulated," he said. "But we know, in any event, that Joan of Arc was not embalmed."

A cat femur found among the remains just confuses the matter. For some, it lends weight to the notion of a hoax or a fake relic. However, other historians say cats or other animals representing the devil could have been thrown into pyres in medieval times, Charlier said. In any case, the blackened substance around the cat femur, like the rib bone, was also found to be vegetable and mineral debris, he said.

Charlier stressed that results from other tests were still pending, including carbon-14 dating and genetic tests to determine the sex of the individual.

Joan of Arc was tried for heresy and witchcraft and burned at the stake after leading the French to several victories over the English during the Hundred Years War, notably in Orleans, south of Paris. The illiterate farm girl from Lorraine, in eastern France, disguised herself as a man in her war campaigns and said she heard voices from a trio of saints telling her to deliver France from the English. Joan of Arc was beatified in 1909 and made a saint in 1920.

 

[ghostdog19]

I remember reading in one of those Ripley's paperbacks that witnesses saw her exhale a dove with her dying breath.

Before uttering the words, "and now for my next trick".

 

[Ria777]

I saw a documentary the other day that said that although Joan of Arc was defeated, she did fulfil all her prophecies. It was only when she went on doing things other than what the voices had told her to do that she got captured. If thats true its pretty interesting.

Can we trust this, though? We can only go by her testimony.

As far as inspired children leading religious crusades, that has happened as recently as a few years ago. Two twin boys. Can't remember where, though. Someone here'll know.

 

[faith2faith]

There's another possibility missing from the poll: that her voices came from dark entities, demons, whatever you want to call them.

Stories like hers (or the Children Crusaders') remind me of the book "The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts," for the single reason that I think if some entity is showing up and telling you that you need to slaughter people for whatever cause, it's most certainly not God.

I'm even skeptical about the Yahweh of the Bible... what an angry, jealous and vindictive guy he was!

 

[Foxxybox]

As far as inspired children leading religious crusades, that has happened as recently as a few years ago. Two twin boys. Can't remember where, though. Someone here'll know.

I think you mean Johnny and Luther Htoo who lead 'God's Army' in Thailand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_and_Johnny_Htoo

 

[Ria777]

I did mean them. thank you.

 

[witchflame]

Maybe she didnt hear any voices at all. But she was not like many of the women around at the time, girly, wet as a dishcloth and expected to be inferior. She had balls, a brain in her head and used them. Showing the armies who really was boss by using a teensy weensy white lie...about the voice of god, and the gulliable numpties took it in!

 

[placeholder]

i dunno witchflame, i have a very different opinion of Joan from the things i've read...her testimony during her trials actually show her to be an extremely simple person not very brainy at all but very strong on common sense. The voice she heard was not God but the archangel Michael, IIRC, (also St. Catherine and another female saint visited her, will look it up this evening) and she seemed to honestly believe in the reality of her religious experiences. she wasn't a good tactician, she had a couple of pieces of good luck with advice she gave to others and didn't fight although she was on the battlefield every chance she got, she was more of a mascot and carried a flag she designed. so not actually the boss of anyone, except herself which i think is more important than trying to lead armies and win a war.

i have immense repect for her as a courageous woman, the like of which has very rarely been seen. she's very different in quality from the other religious mystics who were her contemporaries and there are few people in any walk of life who could hold a candle to her today. remember she was only 18/19 when she died.

she was also very girly and adored fine clothes and expensive cloth. her men's clothing was always in the latest style and her bowlcut hairdo was the newest trend among young men at the time.

 

[MrRING]

The latest Unexplained podcasts did a two-parter on Joan of Arc called The (In)Extinguishable Fire:
http://www.unexplainedpodcast.com/e...episode-30-the-inextinguishable-fire-pt1-of-2
http://www.unexplainedpodcast.com/e...6-episode-30-the-extinguishable-fire-pt2-of-2

If the stories are to be believed, Joan was most definitely of Fortean interest!

Her feats that appear to be unusual or supernatural based on tales:

- Her voices claimed that an ancient holy sword should be found at a particular place that she would brandish for the cause and it was indeed found there. (Weirdly enough, she apparently broke that magic sword using the flat end to strike a military-following prostitute, one of many which Joan had urged the military convoy to stop allowing to hang around the camp).

- Her voices told her that a French outpost was being attacked by English forces & needed the help of the folks she was talking to, and that turned out to also be true, though it seems impossible that she could know of the doings in that locations without modern telecommunications

- Her voices told her that she would only be of use to the French army for a specific piece of time, which matched up with her capture

- Her voices told her that she would be wounded in the neck during a particular battle but she said she would pull the arrow out herself. During that battle, she was indeed shot in the neck (though there is no record of if she pulled the arrow out herself. She did ride back into the battle after being wounded).

- After her execution, her body had to be burned two more times to reduce it to ash, which led many at the time to wonder if she was a saint. (I'm not sure if that level of physical matter resistance to burning was really unusual in terms of burning at the stakes or not)

It's been brought up on this thread that Joan's mission was very much of a particular time and place that seems to have had little bearing on the modern age, though apparently the Dauphin went through his coronation to become King Charles VII directly due to Joan's urging, as well as his later ending the Hundred Years War. But that doesn't seem very Godly to me, for the deity to make sure that a particular king gets on the throne in a specific geo-political place and time. If they weren't visions from saints, could they have been psychic visions that to her imaginations translated as the voice of Saints?

Finally, a video of a visit to Joan the Maiden's house (seemingly recorded by "The Breather" from Elvira's Movie Macabre):

 

[escargot]

many of the women around at the time, girly, wet as a dishcloth and expected to be inferior.

Why didn't I argue with this back then when it mattered?

Mediaeval women were certainly not girly or wet as a dishcloth.
Apart from perhaps a few highly-pampered princesses, busily being educated in the courtly arts and fattened up for early marriage and the production of a male heir, women worked hard at running their households and usually a side-hustle such as ale-brewing or keeping vegetables and poultry.

We have experts to hand on this!