What Would Really Convince A Sceptic?

feinman

Only human skeptics will be probed..
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
1,002
Points
119
Attacks? As an old Fortean, I am quite aware of the many, many theories behind UFOs and even have a few of my own.
And I'll make my own mind up on what I find credible thank you.
Good, Analogue Boy! I was referring to Sharon Hill's posts, e.g. 'they have nothing but big dreams and overactive imaginations '.
 

feinman

Only human skeptics will be probed..
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
1,002
Points
119
This bolsters my impression that every single case could be explained without recourse to the extraterrestrial hypothesis, and that people like Tom Delonge, Hal Puthoff, Eric Davis and some guy from Skunkworks looking for inspiration are not the best people to investigate these reports.
Really it's just the same thing as the COMETA report; a bunch of folks decided people should know what is going on and peel away. The COMETA team reminds me of TTSA:

COMETA Report membership[edit]
The COMETA Report was prefaced by General Bernard Norlain of the Air Force, former Director of IHEDN. The preamble was by André Lebeau, former President of CNES (Centre National D’études Spatiales; "National Center for Space Studies"). The group was presided over by General Denis Letty of the Air Force, another former auditor of IHEDN.
Other members included:
  • General Bruno Lemoine, Air Force (former auditor of IHEDN)
  • Admiral Marc Merlo, (former auditor of IHEDN)
  • Michel Algrin, Doctor in Political Sciences, attorney at law (former auditor of IHEDN)
  • General Pierre Bescond, engineer for armaments (former auditor of IHEDN)
  • Denis Blancher, Chief National Police superintendent at the Ministry of the Interior
  • Christian Marchal, chief engineer of the National Corps des Mines and Research Director at the National Office of Aeronautical Research (ONERA)
  • General Alain Orszag, Ph.D. in physics, armaments engineer
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/COMETA
 

Analogue Boy

The new Number 6
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
10,332
Reaction score
9,004
Points
294
Good, Analogue Boy! I was referring to Sharon Hill's posts, e.g. 'they have nothing but big dreams and overactive imaginations '.
In that case, at least get your attack accusations correct,
My post was #52.


It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Sharon’s right by the way.
She’s interested and researching stuff across a broad spectrum in an interesting way. That shouldn’t make her a
Piñata for opinionated people to have a bash at.
Also, your posts seem to indicate a belief in a physical advanced technological and extraterrestrial source for the UFO phenomenon in our time. While here, we’ve been discussing pan-dimensional possibilities, alt-history, fairies, biological sky entities and time crossovers as well as the internal workings of the mind for a long time now. And that’s just if you have accepted what we’re experiencing is all actually ‘reality’ at all and it’s all not just a simulation or some pre-programmed imprint or a garbled psychic shadow left hanging in a remote dark matter field in an even more remote part of our universe.


If you’re looking for rabbit holes to go down, we have plenty of them here.
 

feinman

Only human skeptics will be probed..
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
1,002
Points
119
I'm on board with all of that, and I certainly respect Sharon's ideas. I certainly think some hyperdimensional possibilities exist, as Vallee and others have suggested; to me that's still "alien" i.e. an advanced non-human technology. I have an interest in the occult, and many other phenomena too, but am trying to stay grounded in the UFO issue so as not to get too far out. :)
 

Analogue Boy

The new Number 6
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
10,332
Reaction score
9,004
Points
294
I'm on board with all of that, and I certainly respect Sharon's ideas. I certainly think some hyperdimensional possibilities exist, as Vallee and others have suggested; to me that's still "alien" i.e. an advanced non-human technology. I have an interest in the occult, and many other phenomena too, but am trying to stay grounded in the UFO issue so as not to get too far out. :)
Well not going too far out is not going to get us anywhere.
 

Analogue Boy

The new Number 6
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
10,332
Reaction score
9,004
Points
294
Here’s a general theory. There’s stuff happening and it affects the mind. There is intelligence behind it but we can’t perceive EXACTLY what that intelligence is or what form it takes. That may be because it hasn’t decided what it wants to be yet and relies on a human mind to provide the imprint for it to have a physical presence or appearance.
So you could say, I don’t exactly go along with the space alien theory as the solve-all solution.
 

feinman

Only human skeptics will be probed..
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
1,002
Points
119
In that case, at least get your attack accusations correct,
My post was #52.


It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Sharon’s right by the way.
She’s interested and researching stuff across a broad spectrum in an interesting way. That shouldn’t make her a
Piñata for opinionated people to have a bash at.
Also, your posts seem to indicate a belief in a physical advanced technological and extraterrestrial source for the UFO phenomenon in our time. While here, we’ve been discussing pan-dimensional possibilities, alt-history, fairies, biological sky entities and time crossovers as well as the internal workings of the mind for a long time now. And that’s just if you have accepted what we’re experiencing is all actually ‘reality’ at all and it’s all not just a simulation or some pre-programmed imprint or a garbled psychic shadow left hanging in a remote dark matter field in an even more remote part of our universe.


If you’re looking for rabbit holes to go down, we have plenty of them here.
Here’s a general theory. There’s stuff happening and it affects the mind. There is intelligence behind it but we can’t perceive EXACTLY what that intelligence is or what form it takes. That may be because it hasn’t decided what it wants to be yet and relies on a human mind to provide the imprint for it to have a physical presence or appearance.
That certainly might be possible! I've considered that too.
 

Sharon Hill

Complicated biological machine
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
632
Reaction score
1,259
Points
139
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Here's a thing that Feinman can relate to that is on topic...

Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos has been a UFO researcher for decades. Yet, he thinks little of AATIP and TTSA and all this latest jazz. See his latest commentary here; it's wonderfully pithy and sharp. I enjoy reading his stuff so much. He makes this important observation about a set of old UFO photos that he once was impressed by:

When you are twenty you are impressionable, with limited training and credulous. And have no analysis resources. In your naiveté, it does not enter your mind that people casually lie without compunction.

And, *spoilers*, he doesn't think highly of Elizondo and crew and the latest media hype of military UFOs.

Many surveys show that belief in paranormal ideas (excepting God, I think, for some obvious reasons) drop off as you age. It's because we become experienced. I used to believe in ghosts, UFOs and Bigfoot. I've given up many of those ideas or they have evolved into deeply complex philosophies. So perhaps age makes a Skeptic too.
 

eburacum

Papo-furado
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
3,574
Reaction score
1,650
Points
169
I don't think that skepticism about God is connected with skepticism about the paranormal. You can be a theist and disbelieve in ghosts, UFOs and psychic phenomena, and vice versa.

Most people in the UK these days are not followers of any religion, but they often have open minds with respect to esoteric phenomena (too open, in some cases). In some cases belief in the paranormal replaces the belief in organised religion, which I think is sad.
 

Sharon Hill

Complicated biological machine
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
632
Reaction score
1,259
Points
139
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
I don't think that skepticism about God is connected with skepticism about the paranormal. You can be a theist and disbelieve in ghosts, UFOs and psychic phenomena, and vice versa.

Most people in the UK these days are not followers of any religion, but they often have open minds with respect to esoteric phenomena (too open, in some cases). In some cases belief in the paranormal replaces the belief in organised religion, which I think is sad.
I agree that people seem to be abandoning traditional ideas about God (as provided in organized religion) in exchange for more pick-your-own spirituality. Some of these involve paranormal ideas. This is discussed in Paranormal America by Bader with data connected to the Baylor surveys on religion and surveys he does for Chapman University.

But U.S. Skeptics (Capital 'S') connect all supernatural/paranormal beliefs as irrational and illogical. They attempt to maintain the test that you can not believe in God and be a "true skeptic". That's applying a label with rules, not the philosophy in general. I found it too constricting and not helpful. Hell, they don't even condone agnostics and rail against religion in general, which is shortsighted and rather stupid.
 

blessmycottonsocks

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
4,444
Reaction score
7,094
Points
209
Location
Wessex and Mercia
"Many surveys show that belief in paranormal ideas (excepting God, I think, for some obvious reasons) drop off as you age. It's because we become experienced. I used to believe in ghosts, UFOs and Bigfoot. I've given up many of those ideas or they have evolved into deeply complex philosophies. So perhaps age makes a Skeptic too."

Agreed. I'm a little older than you Sharon and, when I first joined this forum, I was much more of a believer than I am now.
One by one, my favourite timeslip, cryptid, ghost and indeed UFO accounts seem to have been thoroughly debunked. The Cumberland "Spacemum" being a great example.
I still hold out hope though that my jaded old (well shall we say middle-aged) eyes will still get to see something genuinely paranormal (and my auditory experience at Waverley Abbey is the one possibly Fortean event for which I have no explanation).
So, having browsed your excellent Doubtful News site, I would like to ask you which, if any, UFO account you find the most plausible or most difficult to explain rationally.
 
Last edited:

Sharon Hill

Complicated biological machine
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
632
Reaction score
1,259
Points
139
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
"Many surveys show that belief in paranormal ideas (excepting God, I think, for some obvious reasons) drop off as you age. It's because we become experienced. I used to believe in ghosts, UFOs and Bigfoot. I've given up many of those ideas or they have evolved into deeply complex philosophies. So perhaps age makes a Skeptic too."

Agreed. I'm a little older than you Sharon and, when I first joined this forum, I was much more of a believer than I am now.
One by one, my favourite timeslip, cryptid, ghost and indeed UFO accounts seem to have been thoroughly debunked. The Cumberland "Spacemum" being a great example.
I still hold out hope though that my jaded old (well shall we say middle-aged) eyes will still get to see something genuinely paranormal (and my auditory experience at Waverley Abbey is the one possibly Fortean event for which I have no explanation).
So, having browsed your excellent Doubtful News site, I would like to ask you which, if any, UFO account you find the most plausible or most difficult to explain rationally.
I have trouble keeping my UFO stories straight. It's not my favorite subject. Now ghosts and cryptids are more like it. However, I have not known anyone well enough to be convinced that their stories are truly accurate enough to use as testimony. I've said this before, I wouldn't even trust my own perception since I misinterpret stuff often and err in recalling memories. I'm looking for something beyond people's accounts; I don't believe it is at all simple to go from experience to explanation so I dislike trying to explain someone else's experience.

However, I do lean toward ideas about earth lights for UAP. I thought the Yakima earth lights episodes were fascinating.
 

dr wu

Doctor Prog
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Messages
2,142
Reaction score
1,552
Points
184
Location
Indiana
I consider myself 'skeptical' about regarding ufos as alien craft.....though I don't have an explanation for many cases that have happened.
I also believe that many people have had weird experiences that are often very hard to explain but I am also reticent to jump to the idea that it's automatically space aliens.
I would like some thoughts on a case that happened to a friend and his family in the mid 80's in the midwest. This happened at dusk...still very light outside as the sun was just setting. Several boys age age 10-12 saw an object over their Uncles farm fields...so they went and got the adults inside the house and at least 3 boys and 3-4 adults saw the 'saucer' hovering and then it left rapidly after first moving off slowly. It was not that high so they were able to see it well and described it as a typical flying saucer shape. That night on the local news they said sightings had been reported by others in the area. While I do believe my friend is telling it like it happened to them, I am still reluctant to believe they saw an actual alien space ship...but if not then how do we explain this sighting?
 

feinman

Only human skeptics will be probed..
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
1,002
Points
119
I had an old boss who told me that her grandmother used to tell her about the metallic cigars she’d see hovering over fields in Nebraska.. Had another person who told me that he had watched a typical flying saucer hovering over hills in Napa Valley, CA.
I think when people, especially groups of people can see one of these objects close enough to see that it is some kind of technology; metallic, structured, specialized parts, and behaves in an intelligently controlled manner (perhaps approaches and is stationary for a period near witnesses before speeding off or moving away), and that technology is radically different from any known terrestrial technology and can apparently exceed our capabilities, and there are piles of other witness testimonies from different times and places with the same or similar characteristics, it is very possible that it is an advanced non-human technology not from earth, i.e. alien.
 

Anonymous-50446

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Jun 27, 2015
Messages
8,859
Reaction score
10,847
Points
279
I'm still thinking about things. When I call out people for shoddy evidence or speculation dressed up as logic or a reasonable position (and get chastised for it) it's because you need to put up a much better argument to convince the other people like me.
^this^
 
Top