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Why Full Disclosure Is So Difficult For Governments To Do

Yes it does seem odd, but whatever it is the aliens are doing here,it doesn't seem to amount to anything worth the journey.Is floating around over Normal, Illinois really that interesting?
There can't be much left about us for them to research, perhaps they just have more budget than they know what to do with. Maybe it's some sort of adventure holiday thing.
Some ufologists think they've been coming here for millennia, tweaking our evolution. Made a right Friday afternoon job of that one didn't they ?!

Why didn't all the wisdom and technology they gave us prevent the downfall of any of the civilizations they gave it to?

How can so many Pentagon test pilots be buzzing round in reverse engineered spacecraft when the originals they copied are supposed to have crashed i.e. didn't work?! How would they have known what to fix?

If they are going to assist us up to a higher,more spiritual plane of existence in 2012 why did they leave it until human civilization has become less spiritual and more materialistic than ever before, and there are nukes and lasers etc. for gung-ho Independence Day fans to have a go at them?
There's rather a lot more of us to cope with too.
Nothing about the UFO phenomenon pans out to anything that makes sense.My best guess is they are crewless surveillance drones funded by the bloated, overstaffed intergalactic equivalent of UNESCO, with a few research grant-hungry geeks and the odd ET Steve Irwin thrown in to keep the taxpayers happy.
So that's the UFO/alien mystery done and dusted.Remember you heard it here first. ;)
 
My best guess is they are crewless surveillance drones funded by the bloated, overstaffed intergalactic equivalent of UNESCO, with a few research grant-hungry geeks and the odd ET Steve Irwin thrown in to keep the taxpayers happy.
So that's the UFO/alien mystery done and dusted.Remember you heard it here first.
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Good thinking!

But don't forget to include the 'Morons from Space' angle - just because they're handling ultra-hi-tech machinery, doesn't mean that all aliens will be intellectual superstars! (Think of a teenage joyrider who has hijacked a top-of-the-range motor, just for kicks..)
 
O well if we have to go back on topic. My 2p is that governments know more than they let on, but they don't have enough information to disclose anything other than to say there is some weird shit going on. Unfortunately some of this weird shit is deeply disturbing and implies that we are at the mercy of a large number of spacefaring races so they can't just leave that one hanging in the air while the world goes bananas. IMO we are dealing with the whole 9yrds, star trek type scenario except as they saying goes, the truth is stranger than fiction. They obviously are peaceful otherwise we'd all be dead. And being super advanced successful races, they obviously think they know better than us and will tweak things as they see fit, and who would we be to argue with them? It is up to them to reveal themselves but for some reason they are very shy. :lol:
 
What's wrong with the idea that ET isn't particularly 'extra' at all, at least not in terms of distance. Could it be that 'they' have always been here but hidden from us? Yes, it's the old 'aliens are faeries' theory again!

It's a neat way of getting round the vast distances problem, and is just as plausible as any other theory.
 
Azuredoor, I agree with you. Doubtless the intergalactic equivalent of the UN have some vague, humanitarian -sorry- alienitarian, concern for our welfare but remember the previous interventions and have gone all softly softly.
They may be worried that if they announced their presence governments would fall, religions collapse and the imperatives behind capitalism would be undermined. Sounds pretty cool to me! They don't want to cause any unpleasantness, however, so they just buzz around where a few of us might notice and put the lights on at night and hope we'll get the message in our own sweet time.
Cavynaut :-check out the Dover Demon, or mannegishi as the Native Americans call it. It's an intriguing aquatic/subterranean creature that looks more like an alien than the aliens.
UFO Examiner.com national page 6/9/09 has an account of an encounter with 3 alien-looking creatures that didn't act anything like aliens (2 of them actually ignored the witness?!)
As for faerie magic and mindbending etc. , it has been suggested that Bigfoot and the sadly under-reported littlefeet employ infrasound to disorientate people, scare them, even make themselves seem invisible !
Such beasties could be at the bottom of the alien/faerie crossover, and it's possible that they aren't confined to America, e.g. fions and farfadets in Brittany. Dr Shuker has a fascinating essay on his website.
 
Hasn't there been a few things written about the similarities between faerie lore and the UFO/abductee phenomenon? I'm thinking principally of the Betty Andreasson (sp?) affair and similarities of celtic language w/that of the so-called aliens.

Don't shoot me down, I'm just throwing half remembered thoughts into the mix here!
 
Eek! I'm Cornish! Must brush up my Kernewek in preparation for 2012 !
Being pisky-led is when the faeries get you lost, a common trick among the littlefeet according to various Native American nations.
There's all that stuff about going back to their dome-shaped hill with lights aglow (!!), partying like crazy( and doubtless probed whilst shitfaced !) and missing time afterwards.
So did Ms Andreasson meet aliens or littlefeet?
The Bretons credit the fions and farfadets with rocket-assisted flight !! Bit hi-tech for a bunch of gnomes .
Don't know anything about sharing a language with our grey friends. When I say 'friends' I'm speaking figuratively. Honest!!
 
Dingo667 said:
Well KarlD, apart from not "getting" your point [who is saving us from our own stupidity, the aliens in our heads???? :confused: ], you seem to "know" that there is no alien life out there. How do you know that?
I am personally very wary of any claims about intelligent alien life. Mainly because it could come in such varieties [from very small to gaseous or even wave like beings], that we might miss them even though they are around.
Lets say governments would know that some alien form existed, maybe it is too useless to tell us. Imagine an invisible form that is not even interested in us, why would a government make a fool out of itself by stating that there is another life form but that nobody can see or prove it?
Another reason could be that presidents and chancellors don't know but other departments such as the military do.
Maybe the aliens are rel nasty bastards and threatened to kill everyone if anyone speaks out?
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The point is that the people who want us to believe that there are all sorts of aliens visiting us are projecting on us the idea that some advanced alien civilisation is going to sort out all our problems for us and everything will be super and indeed duper.The more mundane truth is there may be aliens out there in fact there probably are but they have problems of their own, it is very very very unlikely that any alien is going to want to add our problems to his own, travel the inconcievable distances involved, if we found some aliens on our nearest star and we desparetly wanted to go and visit them someone worked out that it would cost something like 33% of the gross national product of Europe and the US combined to get there not to mention taking about 25000 years using our best technology.
The likelyhood of two alien civilisations being within anything like reasonable travelling distances, arising within the same timeframe and being even slightly inclined to want to go and speak to each other are laughably small.
The idea of aliens using telepathy, teleportation, faster than light travel and any other startrekyness is just bollocks.
If we did ever get to our nearest star we would probably wipe all the aliens out by giving them smallpox or something and if they are anything like us they would then declare war on us.
 
Its also interesting to note that when the aliens do contact us by telepathy, like they did with Adamski they all share our hangups, adamski was contacted by aliens who were concerned about neuclear war at the same time as america was paranoid about the same thing, and now we have new age aliens concerned about global warming, you don't have to be a psycologist to understand whats happening there.
 
azuredoor said:
They obviously are peaceful otherwise we'd all be dead.
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Depends what you mean by peaceful. If you mean that they don't want to destroy us, it's true that they never visibly attacked us on a wide scale. If you mean that they don't have bad intents towards us, and have never conquered the Earth, that's not sure. Nothing rules out the existence of cosmic predators. We wouldn't necessarily notice them, or understand their influence. What is an apiculurist harvesting honey to bees ? Only an unexplainable natural phenomenon. Aimé Michel had remarked that a flock of sheeps could spend its whole life in a field near a slaughterhouse, without suspecting for one second what happened inside its walls.
 
KarlD said:
adamski was contacted by aliens who were concerned about neuclear war at the same time as america was paranoid about the same thing
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It seems to me also that reported entity interactions mirror the human involved. In Hicksville, nowhere USA they meet nasty space goblins that they unload they're guns at. Middle America of the 80's met greys with covert agendas in hidden spaceships. Adamski (a new age Californian) met space hippies, Strieber meets greys with layer upon layer of plot lines to unravel. Betty and Barney meet aliens who are interested in their racial difference, something they would have encountered time and time again in real life.

I have no doubt that there's a "rapid response first contact" group, possibly even a list that can be put together should they be required. I'd even wager that we are being "educated" for the big reveal. If it was just peaceful visitors from space then I reckon the Governments would open up to us.

The reason they can't is in doing so they have to admit to lying to us, they may have to admit to be duped by a race that came in peace but now have revealed their true intentions (abductions, mutilations) and also the fact that's it isn't just "aliens from space" we have to worry about and the fairy angle maybe more prevalent than we think.

Scottish legends incidentally also have mini blue men and missing time stories in them as well as the ubiquitous changelings.

mooks out
 
Moooksta said:
KarlD said:
adamski was contacted by aliens who were concerned about neuclear war at the same time as america was paranoid about the same thing
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It seems to me also that reported entity interactions mirror the human involved. In Hicksville, nowhere USA they meet nasty space goblins that they unload they're guns at. Middle America of the 80's met greys with covert agendas in hidden spaceships. Adamski (a new age Californian) met space hippies, Strieber meets greys with layer upon layer of plot lines to unravel. Betty and Barney meet aliens who are interested in their racial difference, something they would have encountered time and time again in real life.
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this is exactly the point there are no real aliens visiting us IRL they have enough problems of their own but having these aliens allows people to project their concerns.
The other interesting thing you see is in the 50s people were contacted by aliens from venus and saturn and then scientists discovered that these planets could never support life, so we then have to have 'altenative realities' where venus is lush and verdent. :roll:
 
What is an apiculturist harvesting honey to bees ?
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Well bees overproduce honey so it doesn't matter that the apiculturist takes some for himself, but my reasoning is this, greater technology and greater power means bigger and more deadly weapons. We are already able to quite easily destroy the Earth in an afternoon, and it's been like that for 50yrs. If we fast forward into the future, probably every being will be able to destroy the world if he wants to by dialling into his Mr Fusion device a thermonuclear bomb with some weaponized genetically engineered cross between Ebola, Bubonic plague and Potato blight thrown in for good measure. We cannot advance until we lose our desire to kill each other, it's as simple as that. No advanced race has wars because races that have wars die out, and it's not clear yet whether we are one of those races.
 
I wonder if it's the phenomena which adapts to us, and appears in the guise that it thinks we want to see, or perhaps we adapt to the phenomena and see in it what we want to see. If it's the second option (always assuming that it's either), then would that would make the experience somehow more natural than the former?
 
I wonder if it's the phenomena which adapts to us, and appears in the guise that it thinks we want to see, or perhaps we adapt to the phenomena and see in it what we want to see. If it's the second option (always assuming that it's either), then would that would make the experience somehow more natural than the former?
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Not sure if that is a reply to me cavey as I didn't really refer to any phenomenon apart from the phenomenon of reason that appears in the minds of homo sapiens but in reference to the 'phenomenon', it adapts to us and we adapt to it, so both :lol:
 
No, not a reply as such, more like me just wondering. :D

So you think it's a kind of two way thing? Would that mean that the phenomenon was therefore in some way conscious?

I've been reading a lot about the Annales school of history just lately, and I've been wondering if the UFO phenomenon could be studied in the same manner. A bit more emphasis on environment, culture and even geography perhaps.

Of course, I could be just wasting my time and we really are being visited by aliens from 45 ly away!
 
So you think it's a kind of two way thing? Would that mean that the phenomenon was therefore in some way conscious?
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Yes a rather lopsided meeting of minds! I think that it is undeniable that the phenomenon has features which fit right into popular culture at the time, but that is more to do with the 'noise' level (the 95% of explicable sightings) that comes with UFOlogy, the false and mistaken reports. There is a measure called strangeness which is helpful when looking at reports, quite often it is the case that reports have no connection whatsoever with contemporary society and it these reports which are most valued. I'm sure if you use the Annales school of history to analyse UFO reports you will find plenty of fodder.
 
azuredoor said:
but my reasoning is this, greater technology and greater power means bigger and more deadly weapons. We are already able to quite easily destroy the Earth in an afternoon, and it's been like that for 50yrs. If we fast forward into the future, probably every being will be able to destroy the world if he wants to by dialling into his Mr Fusion device a thermonuclear bomb with some weaponized genetically engineered cross between Ebola, Bubonic plague and Potato blight thrown in for good measure. We cannot advance until we lose our desire to kill each other, it's as simple as that. No advanced race has wars because races that have wars die out, and it's not clear yet whether we are one of those races.
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A species has to find a way to prevent self-destruction if it has to travel to the stars. Does it mean it would be very advanced morally ? Not necessarily. It could be achieved via a kind of ultra-totalitarian control. And that a species isn't at war with itself doesn't mean it wouldn't be aggressive towards outsiders. Ants never attack themselves in their own society ; but they're frequently at war with other species. An advanced species could be peaceful to itself ; but that doesn't rule out it would be predatory to us. After all, if they expanded into the Universe, it suggests they have a sense of conquest.
 
I think that they are ultra totalitarians in that they think they know better than us, in the same way that an anthropologist looks at pygmies. But they dont want us to have a society that we dont like and I believe that they are prodding us gently, rather than the HG Wells scenario. In some ways its like the Persians, they invaded various lands but they asked them what their own local laws were and told them to codify them, then they allowed each land to have its own ways, just as long as they paid taxes to the Persian king lol. So it is sort of up to us, do we want to be like ants and bees or do we want to be a noble race? I sort of hope we can all wise up and take our place amongst the various races like in the Star Trek series, maybe that's aiming too high lol (Notice how this vision of the future is becoming less common anyone?)

I came across this recording on youtube which has an interview by Art Bell with Budd Hopkins and David Jacobs and they discuss the abduction phenomenon, I find this to be frighteningly close to what I think, apart from the fact that David Jacobs moans, 'O it makes me uncomfortable and I dont like it', unfortunately we need to be made of sterner stuff than that, we are not going to be able to fight or stop this, we either evolve or we die out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L85McC-unMw

There are 12 parts, but you will see the links flash up after each video ends.
 
The trouble with this sort of discussion is that we try to put human traits and characteristics forward to explain how aliens may behave or react. For example, the fact that we make war against each other. Another civilisation could have developed whereby there is no difference in skin colour, they have never felt the need to believe in different forms of God or a creator or whatever. If you eliminate these, then you remove two of the most significant causes of conflict which we suffer from.

Therefore you could have a civilisation which is happy within itself, and the pressures facing it are going to be things like energy production and feeding the masses. They then may co-operate to a much greater extent than we do, and because they aren't wasting billions of whatever currency they might use on warfare, invest massively in space travel. Even discussing currency, is potentially wrong, because this race could be the ultimate socialist society whereby everyone is truly equal and happy with that situation.

Maybe they recognise the danger of mingling with us humans with our hatred towards fellow humans, wars, greed,poverty and so on. Possibly thats the best reason not to seek out formal contact with us. I know if I lived in my utopian civilisation with happy and well balanced inhabitants, I certainly wouldn't want to mix with us.
 
The trouble with being a peaceful interstellar society is that the minute you meet a warlike interstellar society - blammo! your civilisation is dust.

Another problem is what I call the 'light-speed paranoia' problem. Because no information can pass between stars at faster than the speed of light in Einstein's universe, all military intelligence about other solar systems is decades out of date. In the decades that pass between a message reaching one star from another and a meaningful response, any distant colony could tool up and create innumerable weapons of mass distruction. There is literally no way to find out- so each colony would exist in a constant of uncertainty and paranoia, which will result in every system tooling up for war even if none of their neighbors have bad intentions in reality.

Eventually the tension gets too much and the colonies destroy each other in a frenzy of mutual destruction.
 
I would love to get into a discussion about faster than light travel but I don't think rynner2 would like it :lol:
 
azuredoor said:
I would love to get into a discussion about faster than light travel but I don't think rynner2 would like it :lol:
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FTL? I'd love it! How else am I going to get to all these other galaxies?

Sadly, General Relativity doesn't seem to allow it.

But it seems to happen all the time at quantum level, so we probably still have much to learn.
 
It's not possible to propel objects like spacecraft through space faster than the speed of light because that would require infinite energy so forget about that, but consider these things that might lead to a solution for the interstellar transport problem.

1) 'Spooky action at a distance' operates at a speed exceeding 10,000x the speed of light.

2) There may be 7 other dimensions that we don't know about and for all we know, galaxies on the other side of the universe might be right beside us.

3) The initial speed of expansion of our universe in the 'big bang' was much faster than the speed of light. What is it expanding into? Well, one of the other dimensions mentioned in 2

4) The existence of tachyons hasn't been disproved yet.

5) Black holes are said to lead to a complete breakdown in the 4 dimensional fabric of space time. Well that's because we haven't come up with a higher theory that explains what happens in a black hole (or the big bang). Stephen Hawking now admits that information is not lost in a black hole (Hawking radiation), so that means that physics does not break down. Therefore Einstein's theories, although correct, are incomplete.
 
Ginando said:
The trouble with this sort of discussion is that we try to put human traits and characteristics forward to explain how aliens may behave or react. For example, the fact that we make war against each other. Another civilisation could have developed whereby there is no difference in skin colour, they have never felt the need to believe in different forms of God or a creator or whatever. If you eliminate these, then you remove two of the most significant causes of conflict which we suffer from.

Therefore you could have a civilisation which is happy within itself, and the pressures facing it are going to be things like energy production and feeding the masses. They then may co-operate to a much greater extent than we do, and because they aren't wasting billions of whatever currency they might use on warfare, invest massively in space travel. Even discussing currency, is potentially wrong, because this race could be the ultimate socialist society whereby everyone is truly equal and happy with that situation.

Maybe they recognise the danger of mingling with us humans with our hatred towards fellow humans, wars, greed,poverty and so on. Possibly thats the best reason not to seek out formal contact with us. I know if I lived in my utopian civilisation with happy and well balanced inhabitants, I certainly wouldn't want to mix with us.
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Exactly, an alien civilisation is going to be utterly alien, so trying to give them any sort of human characteristics is futile, what I find amazing about this thread is the way the poeple write as if these alien civilsations really exist and its just those pesky go'mints stopping us from going and playing with them.
 
The movie Contact was a great movie. Aliens don't want to deal with us cuz we're crazy and violent!
 
The existance of tacyons has now been show to be inconsistant with the general and special theorys of relativity and as relativity is one of the most tested and experimantaly verified theories we have.......

However faster than light travel is possible you just have to slow light down which is what happens when light enters a medium other than a vacuum.Researchers have ben able to slow the speed of light to walking pace by the use of non-linear crystal optics.Which is admitedly not very useful for getting across the universe.
The problem with black holes used as time machines and wormholes in general is that as soon as you put any actual physical material inside them they colapse.It seems that the universe does not like certian activities such as looking at a naked singularity or moving through time or traveling at more than the speed of light in a vacuum which would all be very useful but would cause endless problems.
It is interesting because you can think of events where you can say we have no idea what would ahppen if you were to say... see a naked singularity because the physics breaks down at that point and it seems as if the universe agrees and does all it can to prevent it from happening, almost as if the universe doesn't know what should happen either.
 
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