Syria: Massacres, False Flags, Backroom Diplomacy & Endtimers

[blessmycottonsocks]

But there were no WMDs present in 2003 and capable of being deployed in 15 minutes. Again I refer you to the Chilcot Report.

Here are the key points:

-The UK chose to join the invasion of Iraq before “peaceful options for disarmament had been exhausted” and “military action at that time was not a last resort”.

-Saddam Hussein posed “no imminent threat” at the time of the invasion.

- No support for Blair critics’ claim that he agreed a deal “signed in blood” to topple Saddam with US president George W Bush in April 2002.

-But in July 2002 Blair wrote to Bush: “I will be with you whatever.”

-The UK’s decision to act despite no second UN resolution backing military action in March 2003 had the effect of “undermining the Security Council’s authority”.

- Attorney general Lord Goldsmith’s decision that there was a legal basis for UK involvement in invasion was taken in a way which was “far from satisfactory”.

-Prime minister Tony Blair’s September 2002 Commons statement and dossier on Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) made judgments that “were presented with a certainty that was not justified”.

- The Labour government’s policy on Iraq was made on the basis of “flawed intelligence and assessments” that should have been challenged.

- The consequences of the invasion were “under-estimated”, and planning and preparation for after the overthrow of Saddam were “wholly inadequate”.

-The government’s war preparations “failed to take into account the magnitude of the task of stabilising, administering and reconstructing Iraq”.

-Problems that arose following the invasion, including internal fighting, Iranian influences, regional instability and al-Qaeda activity, were flagged as risks before the invasion.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/chilcot-report-summary-of-main-findings-1.2712364

Full Report and background to the Enquiry at:
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20171123123237tf_/http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/

You'll get no disagreement for me that Blair was too credulous of evidence provided by Iraqi refugees and was far too eager to go to war against Saddam. It was the claim that his chemical weaponry was a hoax, that I challenged.
Had his "supergun" projects been completed, it is certainly feasible that chemical shells could have reached neighbouring countries, including Israel within the infamous 45 minutes, but it clearly was a stretch to claim Europe was under threat.

 

[ramonmercado]

You'll get no disagreement for me that Blair was too credulous of evidence provided by Iraqi refugees and was far too eager to go to war against Saddam. It was the claim that his chemical weaponry was a hoax, that I challenged.
Had his "supergun" projects been completed, it is certainly feasible that chemical shells could have reached neighbouring countries, including Israel within the infamous 45 minutes, but it clearly was a stretch to claim Europe was under threat.

Yes, it was 45 minutes rather than the 15 I suggested.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Because my cricket was cancelled today, due to heavy rain, I've had nothing better to do than check out distances on Google maps.
Just out of interest, had Saddam completed one of his "Project Babylon" superguns, Wikipedia gives its estimated range as 750km, which brings Cyprus, with its famous RAF base, heavily used during the war against Saddam, within range (719km).
I have no idea whether the loading, launching and flight time would have been 45 minutes or less, and the accuracy of such weapons is somewhat dubious, but it could just about be argued that a bit of Europe was potentially under a small degree of threat!

 

[Nils Meijer]

saddam also had scud missiles and was invading kuwait so he was getting dangerous, I agree, but that was a long time ago.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

saddam also had scud missiles and was invading kuwait so he was getting dangerous, I agree, but that was a long time ago.

And the missiles he did hit Israel with were (thankfully) armed with conventional warheads and were largely ineffective.

The bottom line though that surely we can all agree that the world is better off without such a tyrant still sucking air.
I hope Assad's days are similarly numbered.
I also hope that radical islam- whether of the Islamic State, Iranian, Saudi, Hezbollah, Hamas or whatever variety, is eradicated very soon.

 

[Cochise]

So we are going to attack all tyrants? How do you define a tyrant? Leaders who ignore the democratic wishes of their people, for example? Leaders who declare war on people without legal justification?

Sorry, don't buy it. If Saddam had again attacked another country OK. Otherwise you'd be arresting people who are just thinking about murdering someone.

 

[kamalktk]

all I know is that one 'government helicopter' was spotted before the gas attack, this helicopter could have been hijacked by anybody, plus there's no evidence sarin was used, only chlorine.

Let's see:

Rebels sneak pilot, co-pilot to handle weapons, ground crew to load the helicopter, nerve agents, and equipment to load the weaponry aboard the helicopter, into a government base. This group manages to load and launch a helicopter, and the ground crew removes all their equipment, without the base noticing.
or
Government launches helicopter.

hmmm......

 

[Analis]

"Ghouta is now completely back under control of the Syrian government. Not taking into account the uneffectiveness of chemical attac"

Eh?

In killing or incapacitating the rebel defenders, whilst leaving the infrastructure largely intact, Assad's use of chemical weaponry seems to have had exactly the desired effect, allowing Assad's forces to take over the area with minimal resistance.

As I said before, I have won my bet that there would still be people gullible enough to believe the false flag to come, how gross and obvious it would be !
And you're puting more nails in your coffin when you feign to believe that the Syrians, or anybody in fact, would play their trump card after having already recaptured 99 % of the disputed territory (meaning, at the time they don't need it anymore, once the victory is acquired). Especially this kind of trump card, the only way in fact to endanger their victory.

"Some estimates claim 25% of Syria's infrastructure has already been destroyed.

As was already evidenced multiple times here, the destruction of Syria's infrastructure (alonside with the murder of many its citizens and the flight of many others) is the fault of Western, Turkish and Israelian support to terrorists, and also of their own direct terrorist actions. They are the true and only mass-murdering tyrants in the war.
(Syrians responding with fire to murderous rebels armed to the teeth with heavy guns, rocket launchers and missiles, not good, very bad ! Israelians opening fire on mere demonstrators equipped with stones and Molotov cocktails, very, very good)

Why not hit Saudi Arabia hard then?

Because the bullies who need to be hit hard are presently Trump, Macron and May, plus their minions. All the politico-militaro-mediatic apparatus behind the 'allies' that engineers the network of agressions and criminal wars with the help of their propaganda. Ballot papers may not be enough...

They were dead* but the bodies had been moved and posed by the jihadis. The BBC journo posted the jihad picture along with two photos of the original positions of the bodies. He did this to expose fake news.

*At least I think they were dead. But we don't know how they died.

Again, we have here a situation reminiscent of the previous chemical attack frauds. Pictures of supposed victims of the previous Ghouta attack in August 2013 were already filled with the bodies of the same children again and again (in addition to being posted too early).

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

to be honest I really don't know whatever happened to syria after 2012. I was only bluffing, )

I would suggest you do not do this. The people on this board are usually quite well informed.

Also best to stick to the topic on hand, and not throw everything into one pot and stir.

 

[Nils Meijer]

that's only fair okay.. back to whatever was the topic before I lost my objectivity, got too emotional and personally very opiniated about last weeks airstrikes

 

[Dr_Baltar]

i...but ever since the united nations hoax on saddams wmd's that led to operation desert storm I've completely lost interest in any war and destruction.

You appear confused. Desert Storm was the operation to drive Saddam out of Kuwait after he invaded, nothing to do with WMDs.

 

[Nils Meijer]

I have only one chance this life and that is to oppose a bunch of american military initiatives.. I feel disgusted with the idea that france and the uk 'helped' the us last week. I don't believe international diplomacy has failed to rid syria of wmd's like sarin, and even if it would have failed there are different means of getting that done then letting america destroy syrian infrastructure with tomahawk-missiles. it looks like they were quite effective, especially in destroying some syrian research centre. we'll see who or whatever will retaliate, but for sure one of their main targets will be america

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

I have only one chance this life and that is to oppose a bunch of american military initiatives.. I feel disgusted with the idea that france and the uk 'helped' the us last week. I don't believe international diplomacy has failed to rid syria of wmd's like sarin, and even if it would have failed there are different means of getting that done then letting america destroy syrian infrastructure with tomahawk-missiles. it looks like they were quite effective, especially in destroying some syrian research centre. we'll see who or whatever will retaliate, but for sure one of their main targets will be america

If ever some infrastructure needed destroying though it was Assad's chemical research facilities.
The Mad Mullahs' nuclear plants may well be next, but we'll leave that to brave little Israel I expect.

 

[Nils Meijer]

if israel would do such a thing I would also consider that an offence. the real help israel has done for syria is just to stand back and not interfere when the civil war started. can you imagine assad is still there and trying to regain control of syria? it's only logic: syria is the worst humanitarian disaster ever, just because the international community still did not get control over the regime. today. if us/france/uk are able and willing to oppose assad and his generals by military force, they are way too late now! that is why I hate them so much and boycot their products, these so-called democratic countries should have fought with the FSA from day one, but no, after 6 years of grim civil war, only now they create the impression that they're at least a little bit opposed to assads regime, because it is so genocidal. we all watched it happen, probably just because the us/france/uk LET it happen.. (FOO EEE man! after november/december 2012 I still can't do this without losing objectivity, getting really emotional and opiniated.)

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

if israel would do such a thing I would also consider that an offence. the real help israel has done for syria is just stand back and not interfere when the civil war started. can you imagine assad is still there and trying to regain control of syria? it's only logic: syria is the worst humanitarian disaster ever, just because the international community still did not get control over the regime. if us/france/uk are able and willing to oppose assad and his generals, they are way too late now.

Cameron wanted to take action against Assad when he first started gassing people back in 2013, but Labour .the Lib Dems and a few Tory MPs defeated his proposal.

 

[Nils Meijer]

2013 would also have been too late to avoid genocide

after november/december 2012 all telephone and internet connections to syria were down and the 'arab spring' that partially had led to the civil war in syria had escalated. government troops vs. civilian resistance (free syrian army)

 

[dr wu]

^So...at this stage then what should be done...? Since the reaction was far too late in coming iyo.

btw....is it the 'duty' of the west to play policemen whenever something likes this happens..?
What about Myanmar...? And other places where no one seems to care..?

 

[Nils Meijer]

like I said before I gave up on syria in 2012, like most people, because out here in europe we lost most communications with syria after november that year. there is no need for western countries to help defending others developing democracy. if dictator-led states face uprising of their people it is only an indication something is wrong in every situation in which governments repress people by force. imo all repression leads to violence eventually. like in these so-called western democratic countries right now, are the uk, france and the us not on the brink of civil war themselves? I am not in france or the uk, but if I was I would seriously start questioning my position to my own state, because of these 'western democratic' airstrikes in syria.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

like I said before I gave up on syria in 2012, like most people, because out here in europe we lost most communications with syria after november that year. there is no need for western countries to help defending others developing democracy. if dictator-led states face uprising of their people it is only an indication something is wrong in every situation in which governments repress people by force. imo all repression leads to violence eventually. like in these so-called western democratic countries right now, are the uk, france and the us not on the brink of civil war themselves? I am not in france or the uk, but if I was I would seriously start questioning my position to my own state, because of these 'western democratic' airstrikes in syria.

"are the uk, france and the us not on the brink of civil war "

No, of course they're not.

 

[Nils Meijer]

excuse me for disturbing this thread once more, I'm strongly opiniated, let's just get back to the topic at hand, like kingsize wombat suggests. I will quit interfering and only reply to direct questions.

 

[Cavynaut]

Cameron wanted to take action against Assad when he first started gassing people back in 2013, but Labour .the Lib Dems and a few Tory MPs defeated his proposal.

Trump took action last year. Why did that not stop Assad?

 

[Yithian]

Trump took action last year. Why did that not stop Assad?

It clearly wasn't supposed to--it was theatre.

 

[ramonmercado]

Not so long ago...

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Indeed. Pretty good summation of the 2016 situation from Boris I reckon:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion...is-a-vile-tyrant-but-he-has-saved-palmyra-fr/

Now, two years on though, with the Islamic State all but destroyed, it's hard to argue that Assad's remaining opponents are even worse than him.

 

[ramonmercado]

Indeed. Pretty good summation of the 2016 situation from Boris I reckon:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion...is-a-vile-tyrant-but-he-has-saved-palmyra-fr/

Now, two years on though, with the Islamic State all but destroyed, it's hard to argue that Assad's remaining opponents are even worse than him.

Apart from the Kurds they are all islamists who having imposed various forms of strict sharia "law". Christians and other minorities are ethnically cleansed and slaughtered by them.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Apart from the Kurds they are all islamists who having imposed various forms of strict sharia "law". Christians and other minorities are ethnically cleansed and slaughtered by them.

Again I have to disagree. Amongst the fractured opposition forces are plenty of idealistic, pro-democracy activists, encouraged to take up arms against a totalitarian regime by the momentum of the Arab Spring.

 

[ramonmercado]

Again I have to disagree. Amongst the fractured opposition forces are plenty of idealistic, pro-democracy activists, encouraged to take up arms against a totalitarian regime by the momentum of the Arab Spring.

But you won't find them amon the the islamists. I would refer you again to the Amnesty report. Only in the areas held by Kurds will you find democracy, in all other opposition controlled areas a sharia based islamic dictatorship is in place.

 

[Cochise]

Again I have to disagree. Amongst the fractured opposition forces are plenty of idealistic, pro-democracy activists, encouraged to take up arms against a totalitarian regime by the momentum of the Arab Spring.

Well, should they ever get in power they will find democracy futile in a part of the world where people will vote exclusively along tribal or religious lines. As has occurred in Iraq.

 

[ramonmercado]

Well, should they ever get in power they will find democracy futile in a part of the world where people will vote exclusively along tribal or religious lines. As has occurred in Iraq.

Cochise if you have any emails or articles from the Syrian Christians your Church is in touch with could you post them here or in the other Syria thread?

 

[Analis]

It clearly wasn't supposed to--it was theatre.

He didn't 'stop Assad' firstly because Assad was not involved in last year's chemical attack, and is no more this year.
And Trump knew all too well that Assad was not in the least involved in any of the two chemical attacks. For this reason he has warned the Syrians before the strike, so that they could evacuate every aterial of importance. He had launched the attack to justify himself as being not a Russian tool, and to have pressure from the investigations on the Russiagate (whose true purpose is to make him more compliant to the requirements of the Deep State) loosened. One year later, he has probably become more compliant, and he has accompanied or at least not opposed the moves by the imperialists to embed themselves in Syria. But his main motive remains probably to prove that he is a man who will defend US 'national interests', even if the strikes will have no real consequences.
He still hasn't realized that it is useless, and that the neo-cons will stop at nothing to keep him in line, launching new inquiries and relaunching the old ones again and again. It's a tough job to try to go against the Deep State, as he learnt at his expense.

In addition, it is possible that the harrasment has led him to become more and more unbalanced.