The Ray Alan Time-Slip Case (Chesterfield; 1969)

[eburacum]

Here is an urbex video of the inside of the abandoned Station Hotel, which is probably where Ray Alan (and presumably Lord Charles, his dummy) stayed.

 

[eburacum]

And here it is, being demolished, this year (2022).

 

[Mooka]

I stayed a couple of nights at the Station Hotel in, I think, the 1980s. I was visiting the Post Office's Finance Department (but my memory isn't clear as to the exact purpose). I do remember the famous spire and there was a lot of excitement because the local football team was doing well in some cup or other.

Chetwynd House - the building with the Barbara Hepworth sculpture in front of it? If so I knew that building well as I worked there, but not until the 90s.
I only remember around the mid 1990s when they did really well, but my husband informs me they won the Anglo-Scottish Cup in the early 80s.

Decimalisation didn't come in until August 1971, and old-style shillings and florins were still legal tender for some time after that. So there shouldn't have been a problem with 'old coins' in 1969; all the old coins (except the farthing) were still legal tender at that time, even the thruppence. Even if his change was all in old money it would still have been legal tender, and perfectly familiar to him.

However, if Ray Alan had some of the new 5p, 10p or 50p coins that had already been introduced, they would have been unfamiliar to the proprietor of a shop a few years in the past. So it should have been his own money that caused the confusion, not the change he received, assuming it was a real timeslip.

I wonder if this event happened a few years later than he remembered, or if the shopkeeper was not familiar with the new coins for some reason. I remember a lot of old people were resistant to the change, and preferred the old money, especially the ten-bob note.

That is exactly what I’m wondering too. I’m convinced the sweet shop I’ve pointed out in the photos is the shop he was talking about.

This small block of one-story buildings (including the apparent tobacconists) doesn't appear on the 1888-1913 six inch map or the 1892-1914 25 inch map. But it does appear in the 1:25,000 1937-1961 map, as a fuzzy blob. I suspect that (if this were a real timeslip) the shop would not date back to before 1914. The shops appear to have been derelict by 1982.

I've been researching the old stations of Chesterfield recently; there were three at one time, two of which have been completely obliterated. There must have been some complex shunting moves possible in the old Chesterfield area at one point. Much of this had already disappeared by 1969.

Good to have that information, thank you! I‘ve put a post on a Chesterfield group I’m a member of asking if anybody can provide any more information on the date the sweet shop closed, when the block of buildings were demolished and if anybody has heard of the Ray Alan story before. I‘ll report anything interesting!

Yes there were three at one time, but I’ve only ever known one.

 

[Mooka]

Here is an urbex video of the inside of the abandoned Station Hotel, which is probably where Ray Alan (and presumably Lord Charles, his dummy) stayed.

Yes I’ve seen that. I find it very sad as I‘ve got some good memories from times spent there for weddings, parties… and we had our school prom there in 1988

 

[Erinaceus]

Yes, it was Chetwynd House. I'd forgotten the name.

 

[eburacum]

Yes there were three at one time, but I’ve only ever known one.

Chesterfield Market Place station (next to Wetherspoons) only went to Lincoln, and was closed when the tunnel at Bolsover collapsed. This was the headquarters of the grandly-named Lancashire, Derbyshire and East Coast Railway, but it didn't reach two out of three of those destinations.

 

[Mooka]

Chesterfield Market Place station (next to Wetherspoons) only went to Lincoln, and was closed when the tunnel at Bolsover collapsed. This was the headquarters of the grandly-named Lancashire, Derbyshire and East Coast Railway, but it didn't reach two out of three of those destinations.

There are some interesting old photos here of the stations, but you’ve probably already seen them https://tuptonlocalhistorysociety.com/chesterfieldhistory/railway.htm

 

[eburacum]

Thanks! Those are (nearly) all new to me.

 

[Mooka]

There’s lots of interest on the posting I’ve made of the Ray Alan times slip case. Quite a few people who had already heard about it and a few saying they remember watching him talk about it on a TV programme, that he was so adamant about it and very believable.
It seems the little hut-like sweet shop was still open in the 1970s and the block of buildings there was demolished to make way for the bypass in the early 1980s.

 

[eburacum]

Trouble is, as a time-slip case it is not very remarkable. If the little old lady tobacconist in 1969 was unfamiliar with the new 5p, 10p and 50p coins this might just have been a symptom of old age, since they were very new at the time. On the other hand, all the old coins and notes were still legal tender at the time, so Ray Alan should not have been surprised if he only received old coins in his change.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Regards the Chesterfield time slip case (also much enjoyed reading the Rougham one mentioned in this thread btw), super interested to hear about it since I’m Chesterfield born and bred, and I’ve never come across it before! I’ve been looking through old photos of the area around the Chesterfield Hotel (formally known as the Station Hotel and incidentally sadly closed in 2015 and was recently demolished) and railway station. I know there was a sweet shop/tobacconist near the hotel at one time (see arrows), this was on the left side of Corporation Street coming up from the station. As per the description of the shop being “hut like” it very much sounds like this one and is in the right position for Ray Alan’s description. The whole block of buildings was demolished late 70s or early 80s, I’m not sure when the sweet shop closed but can see if I can find out.

View attachment 61882

Fascinating thread and great to learn about a place I have yet to visit.

So we know that only one of the three Chesterfield stations remained open in 1969, with the old GCR station essentially lying in ruins awaiting construction of the Rother Way road (A61). You have located a hut-like tobacconists/newsagent near the Midland station and the hotel we know he stayed at. So is the link with Mabel's 'vanishing' sweetshop mentioned earlier in this thread a red herring? If so, then leaving aside the question of money, why couldn't he find the place in the morning?

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Edit: someone is asking questions on a facebook site -

oldchesterfieldpics

Dozens of replies and seems it definitely was a sweet shop, suggestions it was there until 1971.

Interesting that a poster mentions a small tobacconists in the area, too. Was this a case of mistaken identity...?

 

[Floyd]

Regards the Chesterfield time slip case (also much enjoyed reading the Rougham one mentioned in this thread btw), super interested to hear about it since I’m Chesterfield born and bred, and I’ve never come across it before! I’ve been looking through old photos of the area around the Chesterfield Hotel (formally known as the Station Hotel and incidentally sadly closed in 2015 and was recently demolished) and railway station. I know there was a sweet shop/tobacconist near the hotel at one time (see arrows), this was on the left side of Corporation Street coming up from the station. As per the description of the shop being “hut like” it very much sounds like this one and is in the right position for Ray Alan’s description. The whole block of buildings was demolished late 70s or early 80s, I’m not sure when the sweet shop closed but can see if I can find out.

View attachment 61882

Nice work. So the first photo was taken from Felkin (or Malkin) streets?

 

[Floyd]

Old map here circa 1913/14;

 

[Floyd]

Also don't forget;

'A previous time-slip seems to have also occurred at this spot, involving a different experiencer, which was reported several decades ago in Psychic News'.

https://strangenorth-eastderbyshire.weebly.com/hauntings-m.html

 

[kesavaross]

I don't understand how Ray Alan could be puzzled by the coins he was given as change because prior to 1971 coins of all dates were in circulation so he would have recognised them even if they were from, say, 20 years earlier.

Also being born in 1930 he would be familiar with farthings, silver threepenny bits and silver sixpences even though they weren't in circulation in 1969.

 

[Mooka]

Edit: someone is asking questions on a facebook site -

oldchesterfieldpics

Dozens of replies and seems it definitely was a sweet shop, suggestions it was there until 1971.

Interesting that a poster mentions a small tobacconists in the area, too. Was this a case of mistaken identity...?

I wonder who that could be

The sweet shops in the area did seem to also sell tobacco.

Nice work. So the first photo was taken from Felkin (or Malkin) streets?

Felkin

Also don't forget;

'A previous time-slip seems to have also occurred at this spot, involving a different experiencer, which was reported several decades ago in Psychic News'.

https://strangenorth-eastderbyshire.weebly.com/hauntings-m.html

Would be good to read that report. I‘m wondering if either of these cases (or both) are included in any of my multitude of Chesterfield and Derbyshire books, I’ll have to have a look.

I don't understand how Ray Alan could be puzzled by the coins he was given as change because prior to 1971 coins of all dates were in circulation so he would have recognised them even if they were from, say, 20 years earlier.

Also being born in 1930 he would be familiar with farthings, silver threepenny bits and silver sixpences even though they weren't in circulation in 1969.

Yes it‘s a very good point, as is the one eburacum made regards the money.

I‘m very surprised how much interest my post on the Chesterfield group has generated and there’s even a couple of people who have shared their own interesting stories. One which occurred very nearby at the Pomegranate Theatre and another which sounds very much like a classic time slip case whilst the lady was out walking her dog.

I’ve also learned as well as the Trebor and Willetts sweets factories in the vicinity of the station and the hotel, Willetts had a sweet shop (see pic), but it doesn’t fit the description of being “hut-like”.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

I wonder who that could be

The sweet shops in the area did seem to also sell tobacco.

Felkin

Would be good to read that report. I‘m wondering if either of these cases (or both) are included in any of my multitude of Chesterfield and Derbyshire books, I’ll have to have a look.

Yes it‘s a very good point, as is the one eburacum made regards the money.

I‘m very surprised how much interest my post on the Chesterfield group has generated and there’s even a couple of people who have shared their own interesting stories. One which occurred very nearby at the Pomegranate Theatre and another which sounds very much like a classic time slip case whilst the lady was out walking her dog.

I’ve also learned as well as the Trebor and Willetts sweets factories in the vicinity of the station and the hotel, Willetts had a sweet shop (see pic), but it doesn’t fit the description of being “hut-like”.

View attachment 61923

Great work Found the time-slip post, its is a fascinating case, would you have permission to post it on here...?

 

[kesavaross]

I think it's more a case that back then, 1969, the term sweetshop and tobacconist was interchangeable as kids called them a sweetshop and adults called them a tobacconist.

 

[eburacum]

Sixpences were still in use in 1969, and continued to be used till 1980 (as 2 1⁄2 pence pieces). Of course they were made of cupronickel in those days, but it looked more-or-less like silver.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

I think it's more a case that back then, 1969, the term sweetshop and tobacconist was interchangeable as kids called them a sweetshop and adults called them a tobacconist.

... and of course they sold packets of sweets shaped as cigarettes to children The good 'ol days *sigh*

 

[Paul_Exeter]

The fact that he actually had the pack of cigarettes makes this case even more interesting to me.

A good point. He does not state that the cigarettes were different/unusual, only the money and the then missing hut.

As a rule, my memory is that UK cigarette packet designs were updated from time-to-time but didn't change massively until the warning panels came into use in the early-70s:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3725195/

It was 1971 when cigarettes sold in the UK had to include a warning message, and these were initially just one one side (not front or rear) of the packet, as they still were when I started smoking as a teenager in the early 80's.

However, back in 1969 there were no warnings on Ray's favourite brand of cigarettes and so he could have time-slipped backwards perhaps a decade or two or forwards (a little) before the packet would be noticeably different.

 

[kesavaross]

Sixpences were still in use in 1969, and continued to be used till 1980 (as 2 1⁄2 pence pieces). Of course they were made of cupronickel in those days, but it looked more-or-less like silver.

I was thinking of the much smaller silver sixpence that went out of circulation in the 50's, I think.

I was also mistaken in that I thought decimalisation happened in 1971. It didn't, it happened in 1968. If I remember correctly, the coins that went out of circulation were 1d, 3d,6d and the 10 shilling note. Maybe Ray Alan received some of those coins/note in his change? Likewise maybe the shop keeper was a bit puzzled at being handed some decimal coins?

 

[Paul_Exeter]

I was thinking of the much smaller silver sixpence that went out of circulation in the 50's, I think.

I was also mistaken in that I thought decimalisation happened in 1971. It didn't, it happened in 1968. If I remember correctly, the coins that went out of circulation were 1d, 3d,6d and the 10 shilling note. Maybe Ray Alan received some of those coins/note in his change? Likewise maybe the shop keeper was a bit puzzled at being handed some decimal coins?

He was 38-years old when this incident took place, so he should remember any coins since, say, 1938 i.e. when he was eight years old. If the shop was in the future and the shopkeeper didn't recognise his old money then the cigarette packet would have change slightly but not that much.

So here is a thought: we know the area was redeveloped extensively in the early-70s as the old GCR station was demolished for the new road etc., so was there a temporary newsagent/tobacconist kiosk located in that area to serve the road workers? Is this what Ray stubbed across as he slipped several years into the future?

Also, was this future kiosk-keeper British or someone who had only known the new money since they had arrived in Britain? The Irish were heavily involved in construction in Britain at that time, so perhaps it was an Irishman who was manning the temporary kiosk in, say, 1972 when Ray Alan appeared to buy cigarettes with pre-decimal money. He was unfamiliar with this money but had been told to accept it and then gave Ray decimal coinage in his change.

Well, it's a theory....

 

[Kondoru]

Makes sense.

 

[eburacum]

I was also mistaken in that I thought decimalisation happened in 1971. It didn't, it happened in 1968.

No, you were right the first time.

Decimal coins (5p,10p and the 50p coin) were introduced in 1968, but they were used alongside threepences, shillings, and old pennies until 1971. The Half-crown was no longer legal tender from Jan 1970, but the 5p coin was the same size as an old shilling, and the florin was the same size as a 10p; these coins were used interchangeably for at least a decade. Some people used the new money (known as 'pence') while some (mostly older people) still used pennies and shillings.

That's why I'm surprised that Ray Alan found it unusual that an older person still used the old money - lots of people did, or at least they still thought and spoke in the old money. It was a gradual process.

 

[Mooka]

Great work Found the time-slip post, its is a fascinating case, would you have permission to post it on here...?

Thanks I‘ll send her a pm and ask her if she’s ok with me sharing her story here

I think it's more a case that back then, 1969, the term sweetshop and tobacconist was interchangeable as kids called them a sweetshop and adults called them a tobacconist.

And I think most sweet shops also sold tobacco.

... and of course they sold packets of sweets shaped as cigarettes to children The good 'ol days *sigh*

I used to like those, I remember the plain soft candy type and chocolate ones covered in rice paper. I also had a joke cigarette which I bought in a toy shop in the 1970s which you’d fill with flour and puff out!

He was 38-years old when this incident took place, so he should remember any coins since, say, 1938 i.e. when he was eight years old. If the shop was in the future and the shopkeeper didn't recognise his old money then the cigarette packet would have change slightly but not that much.

So here is a thought: we know the area was redeveloped extensively in the early-70s as the old GCR station was demolished for the new road etc., so was there a temporary newsagent/tobacconist kiosk located in that area to serve the road workers? Is this what Ray stubbed across as he slipped several years into the future?

Also, was this future kiosk-keeper British or someone who had only known the new money since they had arrived in Britain? The Irish were heavily involved in construction in Britain at that time, so perhaps it was an Irishman who was manning the temporary kiosk in, say, 1972 when Ray Alan appeared to buy cigarettes with pre-decimal money. He was unfamiliar with this money but had been told about to accept it and then gave Ray decimal coinage in his change.

Well, it's a theory....

Certainly a decent theory!

 

[Paul_Exeter]

He was 38-years old when this incident took place, so he should remember any coins since, say, 1938 i.e. when he was eight years old. If the shop was in the future and the shopkeeper didn't recognise his old money then the cigarette packet would have change slightly but not that much.

So here is a thought: we know the area was redeveloped extensively in the early-70s as the old GCR station was demolished for the new road etc., so was there a temporary newsagent/tobacconist kiosk located in that area to serve the road workers? Is this what Ray stubbed across as he slipped several years into the future?

Also, was this future kiosk-keeper British or someone who had only known the new money since they had arrived in Britain? The Irish were heavily involved in construction in Britain at that time, so perhaps it was an Irishman who was manning the temporary kiosk in, say, 1972 when Ray Alan appeared to buy cigarettes with pre-decimal money. He was unfamiliar with this money but had been told to accept it and then gave Ray decimal coinage in his change.

Well, it's a theory....

Edit: Irishwoman, as Ray states the shop/hut/kiosk was manned by an elderly lady

 

[Erinaceus]

I was thinking of the much smaller silver sixpence that went out of circulation in the 50's, I think.

I've got sixpences back to Queen Victoria's early years and they're all the same size. You're probably thinking of the silver threepence which started to be replaced by the brass(?) 12-sided coins during George VI's reign although a handful were prepared with Edward VIII's image.

My silver 3d coins came via my grandmother and great grandmother who reserved them for Christmas pudding duty and gave the lucky finders sixpence.

 

[kesavaross]

Of course. My mistake. Where was my mind at? It's a silver threepenny piece. I should have remembered that as I've got six of them.