The Ray Alan Time-Slip Case (Chesterfield; 1969)

[catseye]

I wonder if the 'hut like' nature of the shop means that it was built as a kind of 'infill' after bombing?

I grew up in Exeter, and through the 1960s and well into the 70s there were quite a few of these intended to be temporary type structures serving as shops, in places like Princesshay.

If this were to be the case in this instance, then the shop wouldn't even have been there prior to the early/mid 50s.

 

[Mooka]

Very happy to post that I have finally found more details! I discovered the University of Manitoba has an extensive digital collection which includes the Psychic News https://digitalcollections.lib.umanitoba.ca/islandora/object/uofm:2939726
It mentions Ray being interviewed on After Nine, a programme which featured on the morning show TV-am (I've looked for the interview but can't find it). Note the report does not mention money and says there was another witness, Hal Stead (not sure who this was maybe an assistant?), which we didn't know before and adds strength to the story.

@Carl Grove, I'm not sure whether you've seen these https://digitalcollections.lib.umanitoba.ca/islandora/search/rougham?type=edismax&cp=uofm:2939726 concerning Rougham from the Psychic News?

 

[maximus otter]

Have we had this photo before?

"My reason for posting this, whether you believe it or not, is to find out more about the sweet shop on Corporation Street. I think the shop described is the one I’ve circled in this aerial shot. I believe it was a sweet shop/tobacconist? When did it close and when were those buildings demolished? Also interested in hearing if anybody else has heard anything about this Ray Alan story before?"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/oldchesterfieldpics/permalink/10161496717613836/

maximus otter

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Very happy to post that I have finally found more details! I discovered the University of Manitoba has an extensive digital collection which includes the Psychic News https://digitalcollections.lib.umanitoba.ca/islandora/object/uofm:2939726
It mentions Ray being interviewed on After Nine, a programme which featured on the morning show TV-am (I've looked for the interview but can't find it). Note the report does not mention money and says there was another witness, Hal Stead (not sure who this was maybe an assistant?), which we didn't know before and adds strength to the story.


View attachment 61950

@Carl Grove, I'm not sure whether you've seen these https://digitalcollections.lib.umanitoba.ca/islandora/search/rougham?type=edismax&cp=uofm:2939726 concerning Rougham from the Psychic News?

Thank you so much for tracking tis down.

Well, we now have two witnesses to the time-slip and a rather bizarre premonition, but no mention of money and therefore it seems this story has had details added as it has been retold over the years by people other than Ray himself. That no 'strange' money was involved makes it a more straightforward time-slip (if such a thing is ever straightforward).

I suppose it is possible Ray had earlier told someone he would be travelling to Chesterfield for the first time and they had mentioned a handy tobacconists next to the station?

Image of Bristol cigarettes:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133927193913

Wikipedia says there were made by Wills until 1974.

Very few British provincial railway stations have more than one entrance for ticketing purposes so it seems unlikely they simply took a different route the following day

 

[Carl Grove]

Very happy to post that I have finally found more details! I discovered the University of Manitoba has an extensive digital collection which includes the Psychic News https://digitalcollections.lib.umanitoba.ca/islandora/object/uofm:2939726
It mentions Ray being interviewed on After Nine, a programme which featured on the morning show TV-am (I've looked for the interview but can't find it). Note the report does not mention money and says there was another witness, Hal Stead (not sure who this was maybe an assistant?), which we didn't know before and adds strength to the story.


View attachment 61950

@Carl Grove, I'm not sure whether you've seen these https://digitalcollections.lib.umanitoba.ca/islandora/search/rougham?type=edismax&cp=uofm:2939726 concerning Rougham from the Psychic News?

A great find, adds a lot of extra info. If other witnesses saw the shop, the lady and the transaction, makes it a much more significant case. Not sure I understand what the reporter means by "cigarettes that Ray had apparently sold to himself"!!

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Chesterfield Station (Midland) was demolished and rebuilt in 1963, the nearby GCR station closed to passengers that year but retained a single freight siding. In 1969 it was sitting derelict just the other side of the Station Hotel and was eventually demolished in 1973 as the new road was built.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesterfield_railway_station

I know opinions differ on liminality and its links to the paranormal but crikey this must have been one liminal area in 1969.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

A great find, adds a lot of extra info. If other witnesses saw the shop, the lady and the transaction, makes it a much more significant case. Not sure I understand what the reporter means by "cigarettes that Ray had apparently sold to himself"!!

I feel that is a turn of phrase, in that he had the cigarettes and if the woman and shop had vanished then he must have "sold the to himself". My reading of it is that she definitely sold him the cigarettes.

I feel a skeptic would say that they simply looked in the wrong place the following day, but to me it seems unlikely given the very prominent railway sidings and of course the station itself.

(I can't help but ponder the delicious idea that they they slipped back in time before 1963 and arrived at the old GCR station literally cross the road and bought cigarettes from a long-gone, pre-1963 kiosk there. The next day - in daylight - they see only one Chesterfield station is open and assume they arrived there. Sadly there is no evidence to support this ....)

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Have we had this photo before?

"My reason for posting this, whether you believe it or not, is to find out more about the sweet shop on Corporation Street. I think the shop described is the one I’ve circled in this aerial shot. I believe it was a sweet shop/tobacconist? When did it close and when were those buildings demolished? Also interested in hearing if anybody else has heard anything about this Ray Alan story before?"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/oldchesterfieldpics/permalink/10161496717613836/

maximus otter

Reading these Facebook posts it becomes clear that there was a sweetshop in that location before and after Ray visited Chesterfield in 1969:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/oldchesterfieldpics/posts/10161496717613836/?mibextid=HsNCOg

Therefore it makes no sense that the railway employee would have told them it had closed years before, as we have posters telling us they went in there to buy sweets from the two ladies in the 1970s (in addition to photographic evidence).

So to my mind that shop in the picture is either a red herring or Ray and his companion were confused about the location the following day. One aspect of this I am looking into is whether or not the Chesterfield (Midland) station that was rebuilt in 1963 but then demolished and rebuilt in the 1990s had more than one entrance. Do we know where they travailed from?

 

[Floyd]

Have we had this photo before?

"My reason for posting this, whether you believe it or not, is to find out more about the sweet shop on Corporation Street. I think the shop described is the one I’ve circled in this aerial shot. I believe it was a sweet shop/tobacconist? When did it close and when were those buildings demolished? Also interested in hearing if anybody else has heard anything about this Ray Alan story before?"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/oldchesterfieldpics/permalink/10161496717613836/

maximus otter

Fits with Mooka's;
https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...e-chesterfield-1969.68103/page-3#post-2228263

 

[Floyd]

I wonder if we need to forget the money part for a while or at least until we find the video of the original interview.

I don't know if I mentioned this before, but I recall he said that on his return to the station the next morning there were builders everywhere and fires going. He asked a younger man where the 'shop' was and was told that there are ''no shops here, you have to go up into town''.
An older man overheard this and said ''yes, there did used to be a shop here run by old Mrs so and so, but that went years ago.''

Now it was a very long time ago that I saw the interview and can't think that I could have made that up- but who knows where my memory is concerned.

 

[Floyd]

I wonder who that could be

The sweet shops in the area did seem to also sell tobacco.

Felkin

Would be good to read that report. I‘m wondering if either of these cases (or both) are included in any of my multitude of Chesterfield and Derbyshire books, I’ll have to have a look.

Yes it‘s a very good point, as is the one eburacum made regards the money.

I‘m very surprised how much interest my post on the Chesterfield group has generated and there’s even a couple of people who have shared their own interesting stories. One which occurred very nearby at the Pomegranate Theatre and another which sounds very much like a classic time slip case whilst the lady was out walking her dog.

I’ve also learned as well as the Trebor and Willetts sweets factories in the vicinity of the station and the hotel, Willetts had a sweet shop (see pic), but it doesn’t fit the description of being “hut-like”.

View attachment 61923

Mr Willett lived a couple of houses down from ours in the 1970s. Set fire to his kitchen one Saturday afternoon. (He liked a drink apparently). I liked seeing the fire engine though.

Also, I used to go to a barbers somewhere on Corporation street (I think) in the 1980s. An old Victorian building- up two flights of stairs into a big room with two dodgy old guys cutting hair.
I digress......

 

[Paul_Exeter]

I wonder if we need to forget the money part for a while or at least until we find the video of the original interview.

I don't know if I mentioned this before, but I recall he said that on his return to the station the next morning there were builders everywhere and fires going. He asked a younger man where the 'shop' was and was told that there are ''no shops here, you have to go up into town''.
An older man overheard this and said ''yes, there did used to be a shop here run by old Mrs so and so, but that went years ago.''

Now it was a very long time ago that I saw the interview and can't think that I could have made that up- but who knows where my memory is concerned.

Thanks, that is fascinating.

Platform 2 is an island platform with a double freight loop on the outer side and so it would seem there has only ever been one entrance to the station, the one that leads to Corporation Street. All those sidings that you can see behind the shop in the photos were ripped up to make way for a car park, most probably during the mid-1970s.

With this information it seems his time-slip was the that morning, and not when they arrived, as we know that shop was there after 1969...? This information certainly puts a whole new perspective on it. The Psychic News article says they found a derelict shop when they returned but there are posters on Facebook stating they bought sweets from that shop in the 1970s and I think early-80s, with a demolition date given in the early-80s. So much demolition and construction went on in that area in the early 1970s.

 

[Floyd]

Thanks, that is fascinating.

Platform 2 is an island platform with a double freight loop on the outer side and so it would seem there has only ever been one entrance to the station, the one that leads to Corporation Street. All those sidings that you can see behind the shop in the photos were ripped up to make way for a car park, most probably during the mid-1970s.

With this information it seems his time-slip was the that morning, and not when they arrived, as we know that shop was there after 1969...? This information certainly puts a whole new perspective on it. So much demolition and construction went on in that area in the early 1970s.

Yes a lot of work went on there by the looks of it.
Do tunnels have any known effect on time slips? There is one that runs right under Corporation street- albeit not directly under where we think the shop was;

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Yes a lot of work went on there by the looks of it.
Do tunnels have any known effect on time slips? There is one that runs right under Corporation street- albeit not directly under where we think the shop was;
View attachment 61954

Good shout, although that tunnel was abandoned and disused in 1969.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Okay, one theory is that in the morning they took a wrong turn - right instead of left - when leaving the hotel and headed down Tapton Lane. We know they were unfamiliar with the location and it seems they arrived after dark the night before. Looking at that map they could have found themselves at the closed GCR station, which in 1969 was still intact.

This site shows the station buildings in 1967 still looking quite respectable as a freight siding was in use until 1971:

http://disused-stations.org.uk/c/chesterfield_central/index.shtml

The sidings, goods yard and intact platform buildings were all on the side they would have approached from, reinforcing this was an operating station:

http://disused-stations.org.uk/c/chesterfield_central/index14.shtml

You can see the intact station buildings on the far right of the image. No worse than a lot of Britain's run-down railway infrastructure by that decade, with investment only going on assets that would survive Beeching, and they would not have been able to see the grassed-over main trackbed from the forecourt. There builders or gangers were perhaps there working on the goods yard or engaged with demolishing unwanted ancillary buildings.

They have passed where they thought the shop should be and so ask the builders what happened to it. However, they are in the wrong location so wires get crossed. The older builder perhaps thinks they are referring to the station kiosk that had closed six years earlier, or "years ago' as he puts it. They then ask something along the lines of "Is this the station for London?" and they get redirected to the Midland (open) station across the road. Lots of towns and small cities had more than one station prior to Beeching (1966-68) and these were often close to one another, so not that unusual.

They then take the direct route to the Midland station forecourt that bypasses the shop on Corporation Road. What they don't realise when recounting their experience is that they came down a different route, as both Tapton Lane and Corporation Street feed into the same junction by the station entrance.

If they had been stood at or near Chesterfield Midland when they asked a railway worker about the shop, then perhaps they would have been directed to the station cafe, which in those days would have sold newspapers and tobacco (as many still do).. But stood outside the closed GCR station the builders - not railway workers - would have simply directed them into town.

So what about it, a case of wrong place as opposed to wrong time...?

 

[Mooka]

You’ve put forward some good suggestions/theories.

I’ve been trying to find the exact year of Ray‘s gig at the hotel (haven’t managed it despite looking everywhere I can think of), if it was actually a bit later than 1969 and since “hut-like” isn’t in the Psychic News report (maybe that was something which got added on later, along with the money, as the story was retold??) maybe we could be looking at Willett’s sweet/tobacconist shop instead. I say this as I know it relocated down to Whittington Moor and I’ve just read the building was later demolished in 1973. With the hut-like sweet shop still in business until late 70s/very early 80s it’s no longer seeming like a likely candidate. I’ve been looking at Britain From Above photos of the area which were taken in 1950, I’ve circled Willetts sweet shop and put a red star where the hotel was.

I’ve searched Psychic News for the earlier time slip which Strange North-East Derbyshire website speaks of being in the publication several decades ago but have yet to find it.

Another interesting reply on Facebook from somebody saying his late father was adamant he experienced something very strange in this area walking home from the Station/Chesterfield Hotel one night. Oh and another time slip story with three - maybe four witnesses - but in a different area not NE Derbyshire. Sounds interesting and worth asking permission to post maybe?

 

[Paul_Exeter]

You’ve put forward some good suggestions/theories.

I’ve been trying to find the exact year of Ray‘s gig at the hotel (haven’t managed it despite looking everywhere I can think of), if it was actually a bit later than 1969 and since “hut-like” isn’t in the Psychic News report (maybe that was something which got added on later, along with the money, as the story was retold??) maybe we could be looking at Willett’s sweet/tobacconist shop instead. I say this as I know it relocated down to Whittington Moor and I’ve just read the building was later demolished in 1973. With the hut-like sweet shop still in business until late 70s/very early 80s it’s no longer seeming like a likely candidate. I’ve been looking at Britain From Above photos of the area which were taken in 1950, I’ve circled Willetts sweet shop and put a red star where the hotel was.

View attachment 61961

I’ve searched Psychic News for the earlier time slip which Strange North-East Derbyshire website speaks of being in the publication several decades ago but have yet to find it.

Another interesting reply on Facebook from somebody saying his late father was adamant he experienced something very strange in this area walking home from the Station/Chesterfield Hotel one night. Oh and another time slip story with three - maybe four witnesses - but in a different area not NE Derbyshire. Sounds interesting and worth asking permission to post maybe?

I feel wrong place rather than wrong time is the likely skeptical explanation and so it deserves an airing. The evidence that Ray stated there were "builders and fires" seems at odds with the location of the sweetshop on Corporation Road, which appears to be a narrow strip of land adjacent to a road. It does seem more in accord with workers of some description engaged in 'stripping back' the railway infrastructure as was happening across Britain in late-60s and the immediate aftermath of Beeching. Perhaps they were removing disused sidings on the Midland (existing) line behind Corporation Road or perhaps they were clearing those buildings of the GCR station opposite that had been demolished by 1969.

The large buildings between The GCR and Midland stations were the Trebor sweet factory, formerly the Chesterfield Brewery (as shown on the map posted on this thread). Perhaps this is a clue? Another thought was that striking workers with braziers might appear as "builders with fires", however I can't find any new reports of a rail strike in 1969.

Without the actual interview we are reliant on snippets of information from different sources and perhaps it is to expected that extra 'woo factor' details have been added over time e.g. the money. Suggestion here that he bought the cigarettes at night:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/oldchesterfieldpics/permalink/10157029056213836/

Perhaps by night they mean after dark in the Winter months, but even so would a sweetshop be open?

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Right, we might have an issue with the version of this story from the "Psychic News":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_O'Hagan

Patrick O'Hagan is the "Patrick Logan" referred to in the article, we can be sure of this as his son Jonny won the Eurovision Song Contest twice. The problem is that he was either living in Ireland or more likely Australia in 1969:

"Charles Alphonsus Sherrard (1924-1993) was an Irish-Australian tenor singer better known by the stage name Patrick O'Hagan. Born in Derry, Northern Ireland, he immigrated to Australia where he found success singing traditional Irish and Celtic songs. He moved back to Ireland, settling in Drogheda in County Louth, where he ran a pub before he decided to return to Australia. In the late 1950s and early 1960s, he starred in the Australian television series Patrick O'Hagan Sings. His artistic career spanned two decades in the 1950s and 1960s with a comeback in the mid-1970s."

(I donate to Wikipedia: https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/inde...e&utm_medium=Waystogive&utm_source=Waystogive)

We are, of course, relying on the memory of one Carol Pool, so I don't think it is a major problem as other people have come forward to say they saw the interview as well, but it does cast a question mark over her recollections. I am willing to bet she got the name "Hal Steed" wrong, too.

Also didn't realise that Ray Alan had four novels published:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Death-Deception-Ray-Alan/dp/0709083939

The one above is about a Detective trying to find two people who seem too have vanished. It was published in 2007. You have to ask if Ray was publicising his novel/s during his TV-am "After Nine" appearance, this would certainly get a skeptic's senses tingling...

 

[Mooka]

Since the sweet shops sold tobacco and were near the railway station I think they would most likely be open after dark in the winter months when it can be dark at 3.30-4pm. Guessing they’d get a fair bit of trade from people wanting sweets and cigarettes for their journey.

Unless we can find an actual interview with Ray telling the story himself we don’t really know which details are correct as it’s a bit like a case of Chinese whispers with the story changing slightly every time it’s told.

I don’t have much time right now, but I have just done a quick British Newspaper Archive search (I’m not currently a paid member but you can still search for things and get a little info brought up). Found this…

So it seems Hal Stead was a pianist and possibly travelled round to accompany Patrick singing. I don’t think it really matters that Patrick lived in Australia as he could’ve been doing a tour over here. I do wonder why they called him Patrick Logan in the Psychic News though, maybe just a mistake because of his more famous son Johnny.

I didn’t know Ray had written books either - seems like his crime writing didn’t come until later though, a fair time after the TV-am interview which was in 1988.

 

[Carl Grove]

Yes a lot of work went on there by the looks of it.
Do tunnels have any known effect on time slips? There is one that runs right under Corporation street- albeit not directly under where we think the shop was;
View attachment 61954

I think that any underground structure can have a possible influence on time slips, in the sense that it will modulate the earth energy in some way. Linear structures seem to have stronger effects, although we don't really know enough to be sure.

 

[kesavaross]

I feel wrong place rather than wrong time is the likely skeptical explanation and so it deserves an airing. The evidence that Ray stated there were "builders and fires" seems at odds with the location of the sweetshop on Corporation Road, which appears to be a narrow strip of land adjacent to a road. It does seem more in accord with workers of some description engaged in 'stripping back' the railway infrastructure as was happening across Britain in late-60s and the immediate aftermath of Beeching. Perhaps they were removing disused sidings on the Midland (existing) line behind Corporation Road or perhaps they were clearing those buildings of the GCR station opposite that had been demolished by 1969.

The large buildings between The GCR and Midland stations were the Trebor sweet factory, formerly the Chesterfield Brewery (as shown on the map posted on this thread). Perhaps this is a clue? Another thought was that striking workers with braziers might appear as "builders with fires", however I can't find any new reports of a rail strike in 1969.

Without the actual interview we are reliant on snippets of information from different sources and perhaps it is to expected that extra 'woo factor' details have been added over time e.g. the money. Suggestion here that he bought the cigarettes at night:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/oldchesterfieldpics/permalink/10157029056213836/

Perhaps by night they mean after dark in the Winter months, but even so would a sweetshop be open?

Years ago workmen on building sites would frequently burn unwanted wood etc.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Since the sweet shops sold tobacco and were near the railway station I think they would most likely be open after dark in the winter months when it can be dark at 3.30-4pm. Guessing they’d get a fair bit of trade from people wanting sweets and cigarettes for their journey.

Unless we can find an actual interview with Ray telling the story himself we don’t really know which details are correct as it’s a bit like a case of Chinese whispers with the story changing slightly every time it’s told.

I don’t have much time right now, but I have just done a quick British Newspaper Archive search (I’m not currently a paid member but you can still search for things and get a little info brought up). Found this…
View attachment 61980
So it seems Hal Stead was a pianist and possibly travelled round to accompany Patrick singing. I don’t think it really matters that Patrick lived in Australia as he could’ve been doing a tour over here. I do wonder why they called him Patrick Logan in the Psychic News though, maybe just a mistake because of his more famous son Johnny.

I didn’t know Ray had written books either - seems like his crime writing didn’t come until later though, a fair time after the TV-am interview which was in 1988.

Great work, also rules out him telling the time-slip as an anecdote to publicise his writing (following pressure from his publicist etc). So it seems we had a pianist, singer and ventriloquist travelling together to Chesterfield for a gig. There just has to be a record of that performance somewhere...

Found this:

.. DEATH OF HAL STEAD A letter from the Australian branch of Boosey and Hawkes, Ltd.. tells of the death in New Zealand of Hal Stead, accompanist and manager to Patrick O'Hagan, who is touring Australia and New ...
Published: Thursday 06 March 1958
Newspaper: The Stage
County: London, England
Type: Article | Words: 100 | Page: 16 | Tags: none

Source: https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results?basicsearch=hal stead patrick o'hagan chesterfield&retrievecountrycounts=false

So if this is correct, which it seems to be, Hal Stead died in 1958 in New Zealand and wasn't on a train to Chesterfield in 1969

This does, however, confirm Hal Stead's professional relationship with O' Hagan:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https://digitalnz.org/records/22863556&psig=AOvVaw033DE1Zv_gyNd8dwMklehB&ust=1672425990287000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAwQjhxqFwoTCJjM_rm-n_wCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

....and also opens up the possibility of them visiting Chesterfield when both the GCR and Midland stations were open and a possible confusion between the two

 

[Paul_Exeter]

More information here:

http://cinematreasures.org/photos/374461

Stead and O'Hagan met in London in 1951, seems from evidence already posted that there was a UK tour in 1952, so is this the date we are looking at?

This was shortly before Ray Alan toured with Laurel & Hardy in 1954, and seems he was working in cabaret before that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Alan#cite_note-Lewis-2

So should we are looking for a cabaret featuring O'Hagan, Stead and Alan in the Chesterfield area, but maybe not Chesterfield itself...?

Patrick O'Hagan performed at the Tivoli in Hull in 1952 and 1953:

https://catalogue.hullhistorycentre.org.uk/files/l-dtt.pdf

....but no mention of Ray Alan

 

[Mooka]

Nice work, so either the event happened at the later date we initially thought and Ray was mistaken about his companions (I really don’t think this would be the case and I don’t think the lady who told the Psychic News of the story would have plucked Patrick and Hal‘s name out the air either), or the event happened in the 1950s prior to 1958. Do we know where the date of around 1969 initially came from?

I’m sure I came across a snippet of information somewhere which mentioned Patrick and Hal performing in 1955, but I could be mistaken, I’ll have another look.

I sure wish I could find an interview with Ray himself taking about it!

One of my close friends was deputy manager of the Chesterfield Hotel but not until much later, but I‘ll ask her if they kept any records of past performances by stars, clutching at straws but you never know!

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Nice work, so either the event happened at the later date we initially thought and Ray was mistaken about his companions (I really don’t think this would be the case and I don’t think the lady who told the Psychic News of the story would have plucked Patrick and Hal‘s name out the air either), or the event happened in the 1950s prior to 1958. Do we know where the date of around 1969 initially came from?

I’m sure I came across a snippet of information somewhere which mentioned Patrick and Hal performing in 1955, but I could be mistaken, I’ll have another look.

I sure wish I could find an interview with Ray himself taking about it!

One of my close friends was deputy manager of the Chesterfield Hotel but not until much later, but I‘ll ask her if they kept any records of past performances by stars, clutching at straws but you never know!

The Psychic News article doesn't mention 1969, I wonder if that was when he first went public with the information?

This new information re Hal Stead doesn't, in my opinion, weaken the case. The possible time-slip could now be the following morning with the builders, fires and "derelict" hut or missing hut; that is, he bought the cigarettes from the shop in circa-1950 real time but experienced a time-slip the following morning. Of course, they probably had a train to catch and so pushed on, reentering circa-1950 as they approached the station. So did they slip forward in time and experience the demolition of the buildings at the foot of Corporation Road in the early-80s or perhaps the construction of the road through the GCR site in the early-70s...? Both were events that substantially altered the fabric of that area, clearing away the old for the new...

 

[Floyd]

Great work on here guys. I'm enjoying reading about all your theories and the interest you've taken.

 

[Mooka]

I found somebody talking about it four years ago on Facebook, they say they thought when Ray told the story on After Nine he mentioned it happening in the 1960s, and that he did mention it was the Station Hotel he stayed at, not any other hotel. It may not necessarily have been the hotel he did his performance at though, and somebody mentioned seeing him at a place called the Carlton Club (I’ve never heard of it before but apparently it was on a street just off Whittington Moor), that was about 1963, whilst another saw him at the Bradbury Club on Chatsworth Road around mid 50s. I believe he also did a performance at the Aquarious nightclub.

My friend who worked there doesn’t know anything, only that she remembers the little sweet shop opposite the hotel in the 1970s, where she used to buy Parma Violets She says sadly all the old waitresses who might have been able to give us some useful information have now died.

Looking at Sheffield Music Archives, Ray was doing a performance as one of the supporting acts to Cliff Richard & Drifters in Sheffield in 1959, with a Steve Jean & Peter Barbour (that’s how I read it anyway). Since Sheffield is so close to Chesterfield, could they have also done a performance here just before or after? Obviously the wrong companions for the story as it’s not Patrick O’Hagan and Hal Stead, and as we know Hal had died the previous year to this.

So Ray visited Chesterfield several times, but the story is that the strange occurrence happened on his first visit to the town. Good call on the possibility they experienced a snapshot of the future too @Paul_Exeter

 

[Paul_Exeter]

I found somebody talking about it four years ago on Facebook, they say they thought when Ray told the story on After Nine he mentioned it happening in the 1960s, and that he did mention it was the Station Hotel he stayed at, not any other hotel. It may not necessarily have been the hotel he did his performance at though, and somebody mentioned seeing him at a place called the Carlton Club (I’ve never heard of it before but apparently it was on a street just off Whittington Moor), that was about 1963, whilst another saw him at the Bradbury Club on Chatsworth Road around mid 50s. I believe he also did a performance at the Aquarious nightclub.

My friend who worked there doesn’t know anything, only that she remembers the little sweet shop opposite the hotel in the 1970s, where she used to buy Parma Violets She says sadly all the old waitresses who might have been able to give us some useful information have now died.

Looking at Sheffield Music Archives, Ray was doing a performance as one of the supporting acts to Cliff Richard & Drifters in Sheffield in 1959, with a Steve Jean & Peter Barbour (that’s how I read it anyway). Since Sheffield is so close to Chesterfield, could they have also done a performance here just before or after? Obviously the wrong companions for the story as it’s not Patrick O’Hagan and Hal Stead, and as we know Hal had died the previous year to this.

So Ray visited Chesterfield several times, but the story is that the strange occurrence happened on his first visit to the town. Good call on the possibility they experienced a snapshot of the future too @Paul_Exeter

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The Steve referred to in 'Ray Alan & Steve was his first dummy before Lord Charles:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...h-lord-charles-tich-and-quackers-1982671.html

Jean & Peter Barbour were a stilt-walking double-act (no wonder the article refers to the 'death of variety theatre"...)

The late Peter Pritchard was Ray's agent at the time of his death:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/obit...ing-showbusiness-agent-Peter-Prichard-aged-81

But perhaps not in the 1950s as that seems a bit too early in Pritchard's career. It would be good to find his agent prior to Pritchard.

 

[Mooka]

Ah I see, Steve the Pageboy, for some reason I’d got it in my head Tich and Quackers were his first dummies.

I‘ll have a poke around on the internet see if I can find out who his prior agent was.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

One clue, It might have been Billy Marsh who may have organised a Laurel & Hardy's UK tour. It was the 1954 UK Laurel & Hardy tour that Ray Alan was a support act and later based the face of Lord Charles on Stan Laurel:

https://www.bigredbook.info/billy_marsh.html

Or this might be Bernard Delfont (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Delfont) who appears to have directed the 1954 tour:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-46762940

Ray Alan and Delfont appeared in this 1989 tv show titled "Starmakers Closer than a Wife":

https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b7a359d78

From this it appears Ray Alan knew Delfont well in a professional capacity and they have the 1954 Laurel & Hardy UK Tour in common