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9/11: The September 11th Attacks

I remember plenty of bleak one sided strands in this thread, I was that only truther in several of them.

who possibly ordered and organised the conspiracy, and for what purpose(s). Any ideas?

Well apart from Cheney and Silverstein there's all those people Cavynaut alluded to.

Now, about Flight 23...
 
Bigfoot73 said:
I remember plenty of bleak one sided strands in this thread, I was that only truther in several of them.

Does that imply that people who don't hold the same views as you about 9/11 aren't interested in the truth? What apbout all of the other 9/11 threads that we've had over the years? Have you read them too?

Well apart from Cheney and Silverstein there's all those people Cavynaut alluded to.

Some more details would be illuminating - who else, who had what role, for what purpose, etc. What do you think was the purpose of 9/11 if it was some sort of conspiracy?
 
What question do you have for me? You've mentioned Flight 23, but haven't been specific.

This seems like you're dodging having to answer my questions. Do you not have answers?
 
its like watching a tennis ball going over the net time and time again !!!

Jerry

the level of evidence you seek is not there ! never was never will be

Bigfoot

your never going to change Jerry's mind without incontrovertable proof

just an observation you both understand :)
 
What question do you have for me? You've mentioned Flight 23, but haven't been specific.

As if you couldn't guess, have you an innocuous explanation compatible with the conclusion of the 9.11 Commission report ( which of course didn't mention Flight 23) ?

This seems like you're dodging having to answer my questions. Do you not have answers?

Pot, kettle. You were not actually asking me a question and I have given you the only answer there is to the question you keep asking even after both Cavynaut and myself have answered it. Now answer mine.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
As if you couldn't guess, have you an innocuous explanation compatible with the conclusion of the 9.11 Commission report ( which of course didn't mention Flight 23) ?

Going back the link provided in Analis' post a few pages back in this thread, the suspicion there seems to be that it is related to the attacks. However, it's not clear where the information in the body of the text comes from (i.e. mention of Qurans, Al-Qaida documents in luggage, etc). Any ideas where this information came from originally? Why do you think it wasn't included in the Commission report? Were any similar reports included?

Pot, kettle. You were not actually asking me a question and I have given you the only answer there is to the question you keep asking even after both Cavynaut and myself have answered it. Now answer mine.

You haven't really answered mine. You've mentioned Cheney and Silverstein. Cavynaut hasn't given any names. You haven't shown how they were involved. You haven't answered questions about who you think organised 9/11. You haven't answered my questions about intent and motives relating to that.
 
Jonfairway said:
Jerry

the level of evidence you seek is not there ! never was never will be

Bigfoot

your never going to change Jerry's mind without incontrovertable proof

just an observation you both understand :)

Even after all this time, you still don't really grasp why I ask questions and instead assume that I want 'incontrovertible truth'. What I'd actually like is for people to back up their assertions as much as possible. You also assume that my mind is made up, which is incorrect. All I'm asking is that people make things clear and show exactly how they've come to certain conclusions. Hopefully along the way to those conclusions they found evidence to reinforce and inform that process. That way we can all trace the path back WRT to 9/11 and see where it points. Thus far, this has not been done WRT to intent and planning, let alone the individuals involved - if we work from the assumption that 9/11 was stage managed as part of a wider conspiracy.

Suspicions and assumptions aren't enough.
 
,
the suspicion there seems to be that it is related to the attacks.

You don't say ?!

However, it's not clear where the information in the body of the text comes from

So obviously it was concocted by devious truthers.

Why do you think it wasn't included in the Commission report?

Because it would have undermined the official story. Flights 11, 175,77 and 93 were the only planes mentioned.

You haven't really answered mine. You've mentioned Cheney and Silverstein. Cavynaut hasn't given any names. You haven't shown how they were involved. You haven't answered questions about who you think organised 9/11. You haven't answered my questions about intent and motives relating to that.

We have given the only answers there are and I fail to see how you can expect anyone to know more.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
So obviously it was concocted by devious truthers.

Which I did not imply. If you think I did you are reading far to much into my posts, which is unwise. All I was asking is for the source material the site was using. Do you not know what that source material is?

Because it would have undermined the official story. Flights 11, 175,77 and 93 were the only planes mentioned.

Why do you think that is?

We have given the only answers there are and I fail to see how you can expect anyone to know more.

I'm only asking that you tell me whether you have some idea who was behind 9/11, and their reasons. You've mentioned two names so far. Any more? What was their overall plan?
 
Which I did not imply. If you think I did you are reading far to much into my posts, which is unwise. All I was asking is for the source material the site was using. Do you not know what that source material is?

No I don't, why not ask Analis, and if it's good enough for everyone else why not you?
It is unwise to keep asking the same question when Cavynaut and I have given the fullest answer we can given the evidence available. You have far more evidence available to enable you to answer the Flight 23 question. The Flight 23 story has been confirmed by it's pilot, who is now an air force general, that any help ?
 
Bigfoot73 said:
No I don't, why not ask Analis, and if it's good enough for everyone else why not you?

So you take what you read on a website as gospel? Aren't you at all curious about where the information comes from? How do you know that various details are true (i.e. the alleged luggage finds)?

It is unwise to keep asking the same question when Cavynaut and I have given the fullest answer we can given the evidence available. You have far more evidence available to enable you to answer the Flight 23 question. The Flight 23 story has been confirmed by it's pilot, who is now an air force general, that any help ?

The Flight 23 story is not related to the questions I've been asking of you, which you still haven't answered. Neither has Cavynaut. Correct me if I'm wrong but as you're a self-confessed 'truther', you don't believe the standard story of 9/11. You've mentioned previously that you think various people were involved in executing some sort of conspiracy. That still leaves the question as to what you think inspired that, and what was it's purpose?
 
So you take what you read on a website as gospel? Aren't you at all curious about where the information comes from? How do you know that various details are true (i.e. the alleged luggage finds)?

Is this all you can come up with ?

The Flight 23 story is not related to the questions I've been asking of you, which you still haven't answered. Neither has Cavynaut.

No it is most emphatically not related to the questions you have been asking us and we are not here for a one -sided interrogation. It is a damning item of evidence for conspiracy and if the testimony of the pilot isn't good enough for you there are plenty of excerpts from news programmes confirming the details. Debunk if you can.

.
That still leaves the question as to what you think inspired that, and what was it's purpose?

Yes there is that question and many more I'm sure you can come up with but they will only be answered by a second investigation as I'm sure you must realise. Do you really think you will get any more answers out of either of us while you continue to evade addressing Flight 23 ?
 
Bigfoot73 said:
So you take what you read on a website as gospel? Aren't you at all curious about where the information comes from? How do you know that various details are true (i.e. the alleged luggage finds)?

Is this all you can come up with ?

I just want to know how much information you're basing your ideas upon.

No it is most emphatically not related to the questions you have been asking us and we are not here for a one -sided interrogation. It is a damning item of evidence for conspiracy and if the testimony of the pilot isn't good enough for you there are plenty of excerpts from news programmes confirming the details. Debunk if you can.

So which details did the pilot confirm? All of them - including the details about the Qurans and Al-Qaeda documents in the luggage? Where did that information come from? How is it a 'damning item of evidence for conspiracy'?

If I'm not 100% sure about information you supply, this is not an exercise in debunking. You seem to have an odd reaction to being asked questions. It is not at all an interrogation.

Yes there is that question and many more I'm sure you can come up with but they will only be answered by a second investigation as I'm sure you must realise. Do you really think you will get any more answers out of either of us while you continue to evade addressing Flight 23 ?

I'm not evading - like I've said, if I have questions I pose to you about these various things, I'm interested in what you think, based on what you've previously posted. If you use terms like 'conspiracy', what do you think it was for and who do you think kicked it off?
 
If I'm not 100% sure about information you supply, this is not an exercise in debunking. You seem to have an odd reaction to being asked questions. It is not at all an interrogation
.

Then I have misinterpreted the tone of your posts from the start. I have to confess to regarding your posts as debunking and interrogation, a response conditioned by my previous experiences on this thread.
Truthers generally look on sceptics as narrow minded and in denial, unwilling to accept that it really is such a mean old scene out there. Sceptics seem to have a different attitude to the evidence and I strongly suspect have not followed it on the web over the years. I have read Analis' comments and the links and more besides and feel convinced that those men were not terrorists but had common purpose with the 19 'hijackers'.
To be blunt it seems to this individual truther that the official story believers have forgotten the classic Fortean tactic of entertaining an idea. They seem to regard truthers as blindly convinced by unsupportable theories without distinguishing between teenage web nerds and the rest of us. They also disregard the good evidential components of a theory once it's obvious weaknesses have been exposed.
Take the 'no planes' theory : that one started when it was noticed that in Jules and Gideon Naudet's video Flight 175 seems to disappear against the tower rather than crash straight in, while it's left side seems to not be there.
If you watch it dispassionately and disregarding everything truthers have ever drawn from it you will have to agree, that's how it is.
The Naudets are Jewish and so are still suspected of being Mossad sayanim, sympathetic civilians prepared to lend their career skills to the cause. Personally I think they were just dodgy, having had the beginners' luck of the century with spontaneously capturing the first impact they CGIed it to clinch themselves gllittering careers. They haven't vanished into obscurity to avoid exposure, it's just that the media industry smelt a rat and nobody felt like employing them.
Trouble is by the time the debate over the theory peaked it was focussed on maliciously hoaxed videos showing supposed TV news helicopter video of the second tower explosion but no approaching plane. Many were already convinced so took a rose tinted view of them while still more jumped on it anew. End result one nil to the OS believers and some very confused sceptics.

The Naudets were just ambitious opportunists, the plot simply did not need faked footage and the helicam hoaxers are just any old hoaxer not TPTB poisoners of the well. A genuinely snide but non conspiratorial video was misconstrued by the truthers and overlooked by the sceptics.

I hope you and indeed everybody would agree that this is the most challenging thread on the forum, where our Fortean faculties are most sorely tested. Except that they aren't. I automatically assumed you were rigidly sceptical in the face of critical evidence to the contrary, and you seem to have assumed I would be as full of seemingly unfounded speculation and surmise.
We are throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.

I was close to getting het up back there, sorry, nothing personal.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
I hope you and indeed everybody would agree that this is the most challenging thread on the forum, where our Fortean faculties are most sorely tested. Except that they aren't. I automatically assumed you were rigidly sceptical in the face of critical evidence to the contrary, and you seem to have assumed I would be as full of seemingly unfounded speculation and surmise.
We are throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.

I don't take reactions to my posts personally unless I think someone is trying to flame me or is lacking in decorum. I've been taking part in 9/11-related discussions here on the FTMB for years now and have run the whole gamut of reaction from people who can't deal with their posts being questioned.I wasn't assuming anything as it was tricky getting a definite idea about what your thoughts were.

From the outset I wanted to know what you were thinking, why you made various comments, and where you think various ideas led.

For example, when you say those men were not terrorists but had common purpose with the 19 'hijackers', what do you mean? Such a statement works on two levels. One being that they were 'not terrorists' - if so, why is Flight 23 important? The other is the way you put 'hijackers' in inverted commas - do this mean you think that they were something else? If so, what?
 
Suspicions and assumptions aren't enough.

Jerry what is left after those is "Proof" ????

or "incontrovertible evidence"

and so the wheel turns

for the record, i dont think it was a well thought out planned thing anymore

i just think some parts of the US gov and security knew it would happen, and looked the other way..
 
The trial of September 11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui provided definitive proof that the U.S. government missed some clear opportunities to stop the 9/11 attacks. Those missed opportunities had nothing to do with the legal restrictions later loosened by the PATRIOT Act. It was bureaucratic hierarchies and power trips that let the Federal Bureau of Investigation ignore the carefully gathered evidence of an attack.

The March 20 testimony of the Minneapolis-based FBI agent Harry Samit buries the notion that 9/11 was unpreventable. Beginning with Moussaoui’s arrest on August 16, 2001, Samit mounted a global, indefatigable investigation of the man and concluded that an attack involving hijacked airplanes was imminent.

Michael Rolince, the former head of the FBI’s International Terrorism Operations Section, smugly insisted at trial that Samit’s “suppositions, hunches and suspicions were one thing,” while “what we knew” was another. In short, he said Samit’s investigation and leads were not enough: Moussaoui had to speak up for the FBI brass to hear anything.

When defense lawyer Edward MacMahon cross-examined Rolince—possibly the only time a government security official has been so challenged over 9/11—the disconnect between the official story and reality was plain. Rolince testified that he never read the 26-page August 18, 2001 memo Samit had sent to his office warning that Moussaoui wanted to hijack a plane and had the weapons with which to do it. Samit also wrote that Moussaoui “believes it is acceptable to kill civilians” and approves of martyrdom.

A day earlier, Samit had sent an e-mail to his direct superiors recounting Moussaoui’s training on 747 simulators. “His excuse is weak,” Samit wrote. “He just wants to learn how to do it.…That’s pretty ominous and obviously suggests some sort of hijacking plan.”

Rebuffed by his superiors and ignored by Rolince, Samit still sought out more information worldwide, from sources as diverse as the FBI’s London, Paris, and Oklahoma City offices, the CIA’s counterterrorism center, the Secret Service, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), and probably the National Security Agency. He was sufficiently alarmed by what he heard that he sent an August 21 e-mail requesting the Secret Service be informed that Moussaoui planned to visit the White House and was interested in flight training.

Samit testified that on August 22 he learned from the French that Moussaoui had recruited a fighter to go to Chechnya in 2000 to fight with Islamic radicals with previous links to Osama bin Laden. The FBI brass remained unmoved.

Defense attorney MacMahon then displayed an August 30, 2001, communication addressed to Samit and supervisory FBI agent Mike Maltbie, from a bureau agent in Paris. It said French intelligence thought Moussaoui was “very dangerous” and had soaked up radical views at London’s infamous Finnsbury Park mosque. The French also said Moussaoui was “completely devoted” to jihadism and had traveled to Afghanistan.

Yet on August 31 Maltbie stopped Samit from sending a letter to FAA headquarters advising the agency of “a potential threat to security of commercial aircraft.” Maltbie said he would handle that, but it is not clear if he ever did. “Minneapolis believes Moussaoui, [Moussaoui’s roommate Hussein] Al Attas and others not yet known were…engaged in preparing to seize 747s,” the aborted warning said. (Samit did tell Minneapolis FAA officials of his concerns on September 5.)

The information Samit pulled together dovetailed with his belief, based on interviews with the suspect, that Moussaoui had been to Afghan terror training camps. Because he did not have proof of the terror camp connection, Samit never passed this hunch on to FBI headquarters. Maltbie and Maltbie’s boss, David Frasca, chief of the radical fundamentalist unit at headquarters, were pressing Samit for facts only.

The 9/11 commission investigation reported that British intelligence directly told U.S. officials on September 13, 2001, that Moussaoui had attended a training camp in Afghanistan. “Had this information been available in late August 2001, the Moussaoui case would almost certainly have received intense, high-level attention,” the commission concluded.

As it turns out, Samit strongly suspected that very thing in late August 2001—and could not persuade FBI headquarters to take action. Moussaoui did receive high-level attention: CIA Director George Tenet was briefed on August 23. Nothing came of that.

In 2004, 9/11 commission chairman Thomas Kean told The New York Times he was troubled that word of Moussaoui’s arrest never made it to the top of the FBI hierarchy. “If it had maybe there would have been some action taken and things could have been different,” he said.

It is now clear that senior FBI officials, Maltbie and Frasca, did know about Moussaoui’s arrest. They knew the case so well that they denied Samit’s request to seek a warrant from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to search Moussaoui’s computer and belongings. Because Samit never made the explicit link to Afghan terror camps, the FBI could not claim a “foreign power” was directing Moussaoui, the test for an intelligence warrant from the court. But had the bureau taken Samit’s fears of mayhem seriously, it could have sought a plain vanilla criminal warrant on Moussaoui based on probable cause. Samit was told that pressing too hard to obtain a warrant would hurt his career.

This decision not to seek a warrant gave rise to the myth that the “wall” between overseas intelligence and criminal investigations made the PATRIOT Act necessary. This myth is cherished among right-wing radio talkers and has now morphed into a clumsy justification for the White House’s warrantless wiretaps. It is pure fantasy. Samit cited “obstructionism, criminal negligence and careerism” by top FBI officials—not domestic spying restrictions—as the factors that stopped his investigation.

http://reason.com/archives/2006/06/06/h ... -11-happen

plenty of evidence of people high up shooo shoooing inteligence reports prior to 911....
 
I'm pretty sure I've made this point before but:

If this was an inside job by US agents, why weren't the patsies Iraqis, Iranians, Cubans or North Koreans? Why make them citizens of a friendly power like Saudi?
 
Jonfairway said:
plenty of evidence of people high up shooo shoooing inteligence reports prior to 911....

That depends on how much weight you give opinion pieces.
 
Quake42 said:
I'm pretty sure I've made this point before but:

If this was an inside job by US agents, why weren't the patsies Iraqis, Iranians, Cubans or North Koreans? Why make them citizens of a friendly power like Saudi?
They knew you would ask that, and it would be just so terribly obvious. :lol:

Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
 
Glad we sorted that out

For example, when you say those men were not terrorists but had common purpose with the 19 'hijackers', what do you mean? Such a statement works on two levels. One being that they were 'not terrorists' - if so, why is Flight 23 important? The other is the way you put 'hijackers' in inverted commas - do this mean you think that they were something else? If so, what?

The Flight 23 men had the same sort of luggage contents, box cutters, al Qaeda propaganda. Sounds like the sort of props that would be used in a security exercise to represent a terrorist's tools and certainly could not have been of any use at all to genuine hijackers. Their behaviour doesn't seem like that of thwarted martyrs, maybe they were just plot players, maybe they were drug traffickers run by Mossad , which is suspected of running an Ecstasy importing operation who were in some way 'borrowed' by the plot. They may have been so desperate for the plane to take off because they thought their luggage was full of E tabs and they had a rendezvous to make and wanted to get paid etc.
The most suspicious aspect is of course the FBI's failure to release their names or issue arrest warrants when ostensibly they were hijackers just like those on the 4 planes.
My speculations are just that of course and probably not accurate, the key point is they were not hijackers.
 
Like I've said before, the details of what was allegedly in their luggage is tricky to pin down in terms of veracity. This makes me wonder whether this is the reason they have not been subsequently arrested - which also depends on whether they've actually committed any crime. Put simply, the whole story doesn't seem to hold water.
 
To quote Analis's original post " Accounts vary in detail suggesting reporting errors". Look at it this way : in everyday crime it is commonly held that slight differences in witness accounts is inevitable and also more credible. Couldn't the same human factors that lead to such variance apply here too ?
Nobody reported guns and explosives, or solely normal travel items.
It isn't just that they haven't been arrested but surely the FBI should have wanted to question them after behaviour such as that in those circumstances ? Had they been beyond suspicion there would be no reason for neither the FBI nor the airlines to withhold their names, in fact it would do them the service of publicly establishing their innocence.
There has never been any suggestion of an innocuous explanation for Flight 23, and it is one of the very few suspicious events of the day that aroused the suspicion of the mainstream media.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJWBcWAeAw

It only just occurred to me that I didn't just conjure the financial scam theory out of thin air. Commission member Senator Bob Kerrey made some candid remarks to some activists after a lecture. The last 90 seconds are the most revealing, his final comment was that he didn't think we will ever get to the bottom of it and that it was a 30 year conspiracy. The towers were built in 1971 and demolished 30 years later.
Where did he get that idea from ? He doesn't strike me as the egocentric type who might embellish things to thrill an audience and maybe win a few votes, he seems like somebody who knows exactly what he's talking about. I know of nothing available anywhere that might lead him to think that but it could be that during it's inquiries the Commission found some indications of this scam.
I would imagine it's some sort of currency trading or money laundering or tax evasion thing, multi trillion dollars of it.
I don't know much about bigtime financial shenanigans but I find the case of Lee Wanta highly illuminating. It bears no direct relation to 9.11 but is very revealing of the territory and the monstrous sums that can be at stake.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJWBcWAeAw

It only just occurred to me that I didn't just conjure the financial scam theory out of thin air. Commission member Senator Bob Kerrey made some candid remarks to some activists after a lecture. The last 90 seconds are the most revealing, his final comment was that he didn't think we will ever get to the bottom of it and that it was a 30 year conspiracy. The towers were built in 1971 and demolished 30 years later.

I wouldn't describe his remarks as candid I would describe them as dismissive since he's clearly trying to get away from the people asking the questions (he'd already indicated that he was leaving before the activists politely stopped to pester him).

With regard to the 30 year conspiracy - is it more plausible that he was referring to a plot he talks openly about to truth activists but has never mentioned elsewhere and would involve an uncanny and frankly unneccessary level of anticipation or is it more plausible that he was referring to a conspiracy which began 30 years prior to him making his remarks (which were made almost exactly 30 years after the beginning of the Afghan-Soviet war and American involvement in the shadow world of the Afghan resistance)? Not so much a 30 year-conspiracy as a 30 year-old conspiracy?

It would certainly fit in with his views on Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda before 9/11...


Backing for Clinton's attack on training camps

...as well as his criticism of the efficacy of the CIA

The C.I.A.'s most Important Mission: Itself


His remark isn't specifically addressing building collapse - it comes after he's been asked about various Pentagon lies amount to treason. He's deriding America's intelligence failure, not the structural failure of the WTC complex.

Or he could be talking about a massive financial scam involving wiring up a building a few decades in advance to assist or exploit an attack from an as yet non-existent threat.
 
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