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A Mancunian Haunting

decipheringscars said:
Re: exorcisms

Wouldn't they depend on the assumption that whatever is going on is due to demonic activity? I'm not Roman Catholic, and I don't know all the theories behind exorcism, but I can't imagine that RC theology would imagine ghosts to be formerly living humans, as these would be in heaven, hell, or purgatory - in the first case, unlikely to want to hang around on earth, and in the latter two cases, presumably, unwilling to...

Unless being trapped on some location on earth is purgatory...

At any rate, in Christian theology generally, God is all-powerful, so an exorcism should not have to depend on the entity's belief in the same God or willingness to cooperate - it should be an appeal to God to take care of the situation, which, presumably, God can do. Then again, prayers for healing aren't always answered (as most Christian theologies, including RC, admit), so maybe there's a similar possiblity that an exorcism wouldn't work (from the Christian theological perspective). The New Testament seems to treat healing and exorcism as almost interchangeable, and Jesus always managed to perform them successfully. So it seems plausible that if prayers for healing aren't always successful today, then not all exorcisms would be either.

Well the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches both have done exorcisms on hauntings in the past though there are more heavy restrictions on doing them nowadays at least in the UK. I think the rational is that unquiet, evil spirits that need exorcism all draw their power ultimately from Satan. Now I know some theologians formerly held that ghosts may be actual spirits of human beings used by Satan to torment people, whereas others said the spirits were merely demons pretending to be human spirits but I am not sure if that argument was ever resolved.

It is more complicated than that though. Roman Catholic theology holds that God can also allow the spirits of the departed to appear to people for good reason. Thus it would accept spirits appearing say to indicate their murderer, or saying the Pope is cool or something similar and positive. Popular medevial Catholicism accepted that souls trapped in purgatory could come to Earth. Hence the vast number of ghost reports you get asking for prayers for the dead in those days. Ghosts nowadays though don't mention this which is interesting though they might still in Roman Catholic countries. A ghost which does nothing useful it seems would be by default be an evil one.

What is definately banned by various canon laws is any invoking of spirits or attempt to contact them as that is necromancy and leads straight to hell. Yes that does mean spiritualists and all the cast of Most Haunted :twisted:

Post Reformation protestants seem to have believed strongly all ghosts were Satanic, rather than being human in anyway. Ghosts asking for prayers were demons masquerading as loved ones attempting to trick people into becoming Catholics. Their position has mellowed over the years though.

Success of Exorcisms - there are a number of instances where exorcisms have had to be done on multiple occasions so clearly the Church accepts there is not a 100% certainty of success.

Pubs - Don't forget ghosts are usually good for business and they are often found in hotels too. So invention or elaboration is perhaps more likely in the case of pub ghosts than in other areas.
 
Pubs - Don't forget ghosts are usually good for business and they are often found in hotels too. So invention or elaboration is perhaps more likely in the case of pub ghosts than in other areas

I suspect it's a chicken and egg situation. After all, why do the majority of people go to a pub .... to have good time, or in the hope of seeing a reported ghost? I feel the answer would be the former.

Also, in reports I've read, it's rarely general patrons who witness pub-ghosts. Usually, reported sightings are made by pub owners and staff, after-hours.

Those who report ghost-sightings are very often subjected to cynicism, scepticism, accusation, derision and ridicule. Pub owners have more than enough work, worry and problems on their plate, without inviting snide comment about their mental stability and/or fitness to run their establishment.

Ghosts are witnessed in factories, private homes, pubs, stables, roadways, etc. Pubs of course tend to be more well-known than many of these. Even if someone has only passed by the pub in question, or stopped there briefly for a drink twenty years ago, or lived in the locality for a period, they tend to remember it and/or identify with it, because a pub has a name (The Black Dog, for example) and because pubs are a landmark often throughout several generations. So a pub-ghost story may well be repeated more often than a ghost-story involving an ordinary woman in an ordinary row-house in an ordinary street. Familiarity breeds contempt and things lose their sense of urgency and freshness the more they're repeated -- particularly if the tale's accompanied by jocular comment about the pub-owner's imbibing after hours etc. As consequence, pub-ghost stories tend not to be taken as seriously and they may not be regarded as particularly 'scary' because the public regards a pub as a hive of activity, filled with people and noise and usually near a busy road or intersection. The public isn't familiar with the pub itself, or its atmosphere, when it's closed. The public isn't familiar with the basements and upper rooms and attics and quirky little cupboards and boarded up sections. The public has no idea what the place is like in the dark, or what it's like to be there alone at four in the morning.

Pub-owners, particularly those in tough neighbourhoods, would generally be loathe to tell patrons that they've seen a ghost, because it would lessen their aura of no-nonsense capability & strength of mind and purpose. The tendency to see ghosts is associated in the minds of many with a delicacy (weakness) of mind. Those who claim to have seen ghosts are often regarded as less than reliable or trustworthy. A pub-owner in a tough section of town has to be able to quell disputes and problems by his manner, first and foremost -- otherwise he'd be embroiled in physical brawls any time he refused to give further credit or drinks after closing. A pub owner has to command respect or he'll have more problems than the job is worth on hourly basis. Fine for a barmaid to tell people she's seen a ghost, but a pub-owner is likely to deny any ghost he may have seen until after he's departed that pub.

After a series of pub-owners and staff have revealed (reluctantly or otherwise) that a pub is haunted, then the sightseers and ghost-hunter crowds arrive. The odds of seeing a ghost whilst sipping a pint are fairly rare though I'd imagine, and people aren't so silly that they're not aware of that.

Obviously, it doesn't hurt profits if it's claimed in travel brochures that a pub has a resident ghost that periodically appears in the upstairs bedrooms (which just happen to be available for X dollars per night per person). But pubs in tough areas of Manchester thirty years ago didn't as a rule attempt cater to sensation-hungry tourists or ghost-hunting groups. As well, most patrons in that and earlier eras would have had their share of personal paranormal experiences and would have heard more from family, friends, neighbours and workmates, just as we do today.

So while its a fact that some pub-owners use genuine or exaggerated resident-ghosts to attract custom, this doesn't mean that ghosts have not been witnessed by pub-owners who made no attempt at the time to publicise or profit from their experience.

As to why so many pubs are reputed to be haunted, we need simply examine the reason many people go to pubs in the first place. A pub's primary trade is in alcohol and alcohol is often used as anaesthetic; as a means of escaping for a while the pains and realities of life. So a lot of emotional pain and suffering is present in a pub at any given time. It's to be suspected that persistent ghosts/spirits may also be trapped within a mass of pain and/or unresolved emotional suffering -- otherwise why would they continue to hang around this plane? They say that misery loves company and it may be that earthbound spirits identify with many who rely on alcohol. It's even been suggested that alcoholic ghosts attempt to satisfy their thirst through live-alcoholics and even take full or partial possession of them. So perhaps pubs are a natural magnet for certain types of earthbound spirits.

As well, pubs provide lodgings for members of the public and it's probably true that many people in deep emotional turmoil have occupied rooms in a pub. These days, motels are often chosen by those intent on committing suicide. In times past, they would have taken a room in a pub. If they died in deep emotional distress, this may have caused them to remain in the place where they were last alive. Or perhaps for many ghosts, their happiest hours were spent in a pub while they were alive and so they stay? And of course, most older pubs have seen more than their share of physical violence, etc. They share this in common with certain bridges, railway stations, underpasses, highways, fields and houses, etc., which have reportedly witnessed ghost sightings too.

Perhaps the reason pubs gain publicity re; ghost sightings (apart from profit for their owners) is the contrast in people's minds between making merry and echoes from beyond the grave? Perhaps it's because a ghost in a lively pub seems so incongrous as to be novel, entertaining, less threatening or more interesting than the standard ghosts-in-the-graveyard?

Whatever the case, I doubt the OP's big, capable pub-owing father would have undertaken to arrange an exorcism until the point he was convinced it was a necessity. The pub was his livlihood. And people, especially practical working-men used to dealing with their problems on their own, do not take matters such as exorcism lightly. Nor do the clergy.

As to the failed exorcism; these are said to be highly dangerous for all concerned. It's generally believed it's best not to conduct exorcism at all, in preference to having it fail.

I was persuaded to assist in an exorcism. I did so reluctantly, in the belief the standard latin ritual would be followed to the letter. This was not the case. Later that night, I was visited by an immensely powerful entity who appeared behind me in my living room some 90 kilometres from where the exorcism had been held. The entity issued the following threat: ' You've got rid of the rest of them. Now you have me to deal with'. So exorcism doesn't always work as intended and it can be very frightening for those involved, as the OPs father learned when he was pushed by unseen hands into the pumps. Still, we have people enchanted with the dark side and who feel all they need is the latest book of spells and some black lipstick, a camera and a few friends beside them before they launch themselves into god knows where. Telling them to err on the side of caution is a waste of time. Some people like to learn from their own mistakes. Their choice, of course.
 
I suspect it's a chicken and egg situation. After all, why do the majority of people go to a pub .... to have good time, or in the hope of seeing a reported ghost? I feel the answer would be the former.

I agree with much of your summary that is why I said "perhaps more likely". As you indicate when you look at haunted pubs you tend to see the most widely reported ones tend to be touristy ones who market ghosts deliberately as a heritage feature. Often the ghost's story is exaggerated to make more exciting and a back story is invented. In one pub in Buckingham I know earliest printed report of a ghost said it was a murderer who killed one person. Today he is supposed to have killed over 40 people. In the case of the Shakespeare for example something is clearly amiss. In such cases any investigator worth his salt will investigate the possibility of invention or distortion especially as the pub was brought to Manchester because of its age and heritage. The field of ghosts just like ufos does have a large number of fake and hoax cases and they tend to be found in places where tourist profit can be made.

Of course bearing in mind the Philip Experiment the invention of a history does not mean paranormal activity will not result. Especially if as you say pubs attract earthbound spirits or psychic events.

I agree that a working class pub with a ghost history like the original one on this thread is obviously a far more reliable report just as a ghost report in a factory, ordinary house etc might tend to be. I never meant to suggest otherwise sorry if I gave that impression.
 
again6 said:
As to why so many pubs are reputed to be haunted, we need simply examine the reason many people go to pubs in the first place. A pub's primary trade is in alcohol and alcohol is often used as anaesthetic; as a means of escaping for a while the pains and realities of life. So a lot of emotional pain and suffering is present in a pub at any given time. It's to be suspected that persistent ghosts/spirits may also be trapped within a mass of pain and/or unresolved emotional suffering -- otherwise why would they continue to hang around this plane? They say that misery loves company and it may be that earthbound spirits identify with many who rely on alcohol. It's even been suggested that alcoholic ghosts attempt to satisfy their thirst through live-alcoholics and even take full or partial possession of them. So perhaps pubs are a natural magnet for certain types of earthbound spirits.

It's important to remember that pubs these days don't quite hold the same significance within society as they once did. The pub used to be the hub of local life, not just a place owned by a PLC to go and get pissed, as it is today. You can see the traces of it in The Rover's Return or Queen Vic. Life revolved around the local for many many people. I think it follows that places of such importance would be a magnet for not-quite-departed souls (if they exist).
 
I regret I don't have anything to say about the pubs mentioned or indeed haunted pubs generally. Just that, reading the question about 'why should exorcisms work' - it reminded me of something I read in Gault and Cornell's 'Poltergeists' classic. Namely that one of them told the householders he was going to get rid of the mischievous nuisance, and went into a bedroom alone with a comment along the lines of 'don't come in whatever you hear'. Then he just sat down and had a fag (and no doubt would have fiddled about on his phone for a bit if it'd been 2021). When he came out he tousled his hair a bit for effect. And apparently it worked at least for a while, and the poltergeist went away. So I suppose the more convincing the person doing the ceremony - and who could be more convincing than a Catholic priest - the more likely (assuming such things are something to do with the people present and caught up in it and not just totally independent 'demons' or something) the ceremony will have the desired effect.

But thinking about pub ghosts. I suppose they're often poltergeisty in flavour aren't they. But then they're often very traditional as well, linked with some local history story or other. Or they're actual people that came in the pub and people recognise. You seem to get all sorts. Which I suppose is fairly obvious as you've got lots of human coming-and-going, plenty of glasses to throw about, and the buildings are often very old. Maybe the variety means they're more likely to keep alive (so to speak)... a bit more relatable than a figure in a white sheet flitting through a graveyard. Our local pub is haunted. But they won't talk about it, they say it makes it more active. My sister worked there briefly and although she said she kind of saw something out of the corner of her eye, she resolutely put it down to a trick of the light and suggestion, she wouldn't agree that she'd seen anything.
 
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