Alchemy, Hermeticism & Forteanism

altered_boy

your friendly neighborhood alchemist
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#1
Hey everybody, open-ended question/premise. What do you all on this forum think about alchemy? Throughout the years, my interest in Forteanism eventually led me right into the esoteric and eventually into the self-empowerment techniques of alchemy. Scholars like Manly P Hall, 33rd degree Freemason, and even Carl Jung discuss how archetypal symbols are cryptogrammatical, meaning that each part of the symbol helps to convey an overall larger, hidden context--similar to a fractal.

I have always loved John Keel's ideas of mental-projection, like that of Jung's ideas. The whole idea in the title of the "Mothman Prophecies" was the theory that the townspeople of Point Pleasant were somehow creating either a conduit from another dimension through their collective consciousness, or they were creating some sort of intense and even autonomous group-mind hallucination. The basic gist is that the Mothman was symbolically prophetic, similar to the things people experience within dreams.

Long story short, I feel like Fortean phenomena is like raw psychic material that has yet to be transmutated by the individual perceiving it. If we did not perform psychodynamic transmutation of our psyche's archetypes and energies, then they will project themselves autonomously at any given chance. The more we suppress, the harder they come and the more illustrious they appear. I'm not saying that Forteanism is all one big hallucination--but that Forteanism is like the threshold of the esoteric. It is the gateway into the surreal, and alchemy is like the act of learning how to work with and harness the surreal.

After all, Hermeticism is very-basically the philosophy of using symbols and divination to make the proper "Story" out of your life that you see fit. if you don't make the story, the story makes you, and sometimes it comes as a Jungian synchronicity like running into someone as soon as you think of them--or something much more surreal, like encountering a cryptid or seeing a UFO, et cetera.

For the record, I consider myself a Hermeticist, and in my younger days I had some profound UFO sightings that I still think about from time to time. So I'm no stranger to any of these topics.

Thoughts?

Cheers to you all.
 

AlchoPwn

Public Service is my Motto.
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#2
Hey everybody, open-ended question/premise. What do you all on this forum think about alchemy? Throughout the years, my interest in Forteanism eventually led me right into the esoteric and eventually into the self-empowerment techniques of alchemy. Scholars like Manly P Hall, 33rd degree Freemason, and even Carl Jung discuss how archetypal symbols are cryptogrammatical, meaning that each part of the symbol helps to convey an overall larger, hidden context--similar to a fractal.
Most people veer one way or the other on the issue of Alchemy. Some are super-eager to buy themselves an athanor and an alembic or two, roll up their sleeves, and get cooking. The others love to discuss symbols and archetypes and never turn their hand to the chemistry. The latter are in the majority as who has the money for all that cookware amirite? As the son of a chemist I have had the pleasure of experimenting with both. It is my considered opinion that, as with the stonemasonry origins of Freemasonry, so too AMORC had its origins among pharmacy, whitesmithing, and early chemistry as a closed craft. If anyone else is aware of how strangely some chemical experiments can go awry, perhaps they, like myself, have mused how the pre-scientific mind could see the hand of the gods in the workings in chemistry and start casting horoscopes to see when their luck was likely to be good before doing their work (by way of a synthesis of the ideas).

I have always loved John Keel's ideas of mental-projection, like that of Jung's ideas. The whole idea in the title of the "Mothman Prophecies" was the theory that the townspeople of Point Pleasant were somehow creating either a conduit from another dimension through their collective consciousness, or they were creating some sort of intense and even autonomous group-mind hallucination. The basic gist is that the Mothman was symbolically prophetic, similar to the things people experience within dreams.
It is an interesting idea indeed, with which I have only one problem, that being the issue of timing. The mothman sightings occur as a precursor to the Silver Bridge collapse at Point Pleasant, and apparently leaves the area thereafter. The entity is then a prophecy of disaster, or perhaps a cause thereof? I am not suggesting that psychic phenomena cannot potentially play havoc with causality, but would that mean that the locals sensed the disaster and gave it a form before it arrived? It is folklore for some that the mothman is the "angel of death". It is also possible that there is no causal connection between the Silver Bridge collapse and the mothman, and commentators have made an error of false attribution by linking the two events.

Long story short, I feel like Fortean phenomena is like raw psychic material that has yet to be transmutated by the individual perceiving it. If we did not perform psychodynamic transmutation of our psyche's archetypes and energies, then they will project themselves autonomously at any given chance. The more we suppress, the harder they come and the more illustrious they appear. I'm not saying that Forteanism is all one big hallucination--but that Forteanism is like the threshold of the esoteric. It is the gateway into the surreal, and alchemy is like the act of learning how to work with and harness the surreal.
Want an uncomfortable spin on that thought? Consider masturbatory fantasy partners. Consider also that the Jewish burial ritual includes a very specific series of practices that (among other things involve the Rabbi making the Vulcan "live long and prosper" V sign with their fingers, to drive away the "children of Lilith" or "Lilim" that the deceased may have parented through the heinous sin of self abuse.
:died::rcard::evillaugh:

After all, Hermeticism is very-basically the philosophy of using symbols and divination to make the proper "Story" out of your life that you see fit. if you don't make the story, the story makes you, and sometimes it comes as a Jungian synchronicity like running into someone as soon as you think of them--or something much more surreal, like encountering a cryptid or seeing a UFO, et cetera.
That is a novel definition of Hermeticism.

For the record, I consider myself a Hermeticist, and in my younger days I had some profound UFO sightings that I still think about from time to time. So I'm no stranger to any of these topics.
Thoughts?
Cheers to you all.
Cheers 2u2 altered_boy
 

altered_boy

your friendly neighborhood alchemist
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#3
Hey, thanks for the response and friendly words! Firstly, what a great name, AlchoPwn. And I haven't figured out how to do the quote boxes yet, forgive me, lol.

Would you care to tell me a bit about your alchemical experiments? I would say I am somewhere in between the two types of alchemists you describe. Primarily, i deal with archetypes and self-transmutation, but I have also worked with some chemistry. If i am being candid, I have done a variety of alchemical experiments with cannabis. I lived in Alaska for twenty years, and pot has never been illegal there--always decriminalized before legality. So I used my alchemical studies to learn growing methods, nutrient ratios, and especially with the harvest. I made a variety of tinctures, and honestly I made just about anything you can make out of cannabis many times over. Obviously this isn't as extensive as a real chemist, but I got really into it, while reading alchemical texts and Jung, etc, all throughout. And for whatever its worth, i was known for my exceptional results ;)

Hahahaha I have definitely thought about masturbation and archetypes in that manner, as odd as it sounds. And I have even thought about this concept with Lilith in mind! Very interesting that you should bring it up. I remember when I first had the epiphany that any given one of my daydreams are housing autonomous archetypes that I have had relationships with for many years without knowing. Talk about a mind-fuck haha.

And yes, the way I see it with Pt Pleasant: I consider the locals to have been projecting the Mothman (angel of death is a great comparison) as a warning of what is to come. Prophetic. Obviously this is all heavy conjecture but i think it is an idea that holds weight, especially when considering Fortean phenomena as a whole. After all, when a person dreams of their archetypal shadow, or encounters it in other ways, it is prophetic of the internal alchemical marriage of opposites that comes when we encounter and reconcile with our shadows. Basically, I think the people of Pt Pleasant experienced the same thing on a large-scale level.
 

AlchoPwn

Public Service is my Motto.
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#4
Hey, thanks for the response and friendly words! Firstly, what a great name, AlchoPwn. And I haven't figured out how to do the quote boxes yet, forgive me, lol.
Thx buddy, dare I ask in what way you have been altered_:wii::thought:? If you want to use quote boxes, it is pretty trivial. when you go to the "post reply" button, you will receive the whole wall of text, but there is a code prefix and a code suffix. All you do is copy paste the prefix to the start of each paragraph you intend to reply to, and then do the same with the suffix, then delete everything that you won't be replying to, and type what you want to say underneath. It is a tiny bit fiddly the first time, but you'll get it, I have faith in you.
:freak::comphit::win::thrash:

Would you care to tell me a bit about your alchemical experiments? I would say I am somewhere in between the two types of alchemists you describe. Primarily, i deal with archetypes and self-transmutation, but I have also worked with some chemistry. If i am being candid, I have done a variety of alchemical experiments with cannabis. I lived in Alaska for twenty years, and pot has never been illegal there--always decriminalized before legality. So I used my alchemical studies to learn growing methods, nutrient ratios, and especially with the harvest. I made a variety of tinctures, and honestly I made just about anything you can make out of cannabis many times over. Obviously this isn't as extensive as a real chemist, but I got really into it, while reading alchemical texts and Jung, etc, all throughout. And for whatever its worth, i was known for my exceptional results ;)
I have investigated alchemy primarily with reference to two main thinkers/writers in the area. The first is Jabir ibn Hayyan also known as Geber, and the other is Jan Baptist Van Helmont. Geber is hard to read, as he constantly uses poetic aphorisms to describe what is going on, so you have to also become a bit of an expert in Sufi poetry to get a clue, which detracts from the chemistry somewhat. Assuming I have understood him, Geber seems to have been an early practical chemist, as his work involves the manufacture of a number of medicines and dyes and other routine chemical products that would have seemed like magic in their day. I think his "creation" of gold, likely involved methods of precipitating gold out of a mercury solution which is still used in mining today as an extraction process from crushed ore.

As for Van Helmont, he is the fellow who proved scientifically that plants breathe. I didn't replicate his experiments, but I did sort of decode them. He did an interesting experiment in transmuting mercury into gold via the "philosopher's stone". This he described as a pink crystal. Interestingly, in India there was a naturally occurring deposit of Americanium crystals that were pink in color. As the crystals release neutrons (and are frantically dangerous radioactive material), they can bombard mercury and shift it on the periodic table. This is sometimes called "nuclear gold" and was used to prop up the Soviet economy. Apparently there was also a lot of gold bearing alchemical seals in the royal treasury of Sweden that apparently lost purity over the centuries, as one would expect from radioactive decay, suggesting that some form of radioactive neutron transfer was performed.

Hahahaha I have definitely thought about masturbation and archetypes in that manner, as odd as it sounds. And I have even thought about this concept with Lilith in mind! Very interesting that you should bring it up. I remember when I first had the epiphany that any given one of my daydreams are housing autonomous archetypes that I have had relationships with for many years without knowing. Talk about a mind-fuck haha.
Thoughtforms gone wild!:hapdan:

And yes, the way I see it with Pt Pleasant: I consider the locals to have been projecting the Mothman (angel of death is a great comparison) as a warning of what is to come. Prophetic. Obviously this is all heavy conjecture but i think it is an idea that holds weight, especially when considering Fortean phenomena as a whole. After all, when a person dreams of their archetypal shadow, or encounters it in other ways, it is prophetic of the internal alchemical marriage of opposites that comes when we encounter and reconcile with our shadows. Basically, I think the people of Pt Pleasant experienced the same thing on a large-scale level.
While I have certainly read people using Jungian theories on this forum before, you seem pretty convinced that this is the best explanation for most of them. Is that correct? If so I hope you can help me get my head around this question with reference to the mothman.

Now Jung refers to the collective unconscious in much the same way that Buddhists refer to the "storehouse consciousness", so for all these different people to experience the mothman in Point Pleasant is clearly coming from the collective unconscious (which we all share), but what is setting such a phenomenon off? Other towns in the USA have had bizarre mass sightings of local "monster" phenomena without a disaster like the Silver Bridge collapse to act as a geographically local "psychic trigger". It is also unusual for the mothman to be pre-collapse rather than post, if we are arguing for a causal relationship (not going to dwell on it overmuch). I could ask, how do we know we are dealing with a Jungian archetypal vision and not a cryptid, but I am more concerned with what triggers a community to have visions? The only thing I can guess at is a local release of hallucinogenic toxins in the environment. I really look forwards to reading how you approach this question.
 

altered_boy

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#5
Alright, let's see about these quote bars, haha.

Thx buddy, dare I ask in what way you have been altered_:wii::thought:?
Answering this will actually help illustrate my points with Jungian analysis and Forteanism. I'll have to explain a couple different angles and bring them together here. Just remember, you asked! Lol.

I have seen some of the circles of Hell. Because of things I grew up with and inadequate coping mechanisms, I grew up using drugs to self medicate. Firstly, my life was never extreme, my parents were good people but my dad was the classical detached alcoholic detective and my mom had a rough upbringing. at a young age, it left me with a bit of a void that i started filling with cannabis mainly, sometimes alcohol, sometimes mushrooms, sometimes methadone.

i've been into Forteanism, philosophy, and comparative religion since maybe 10 years old. it started small but was always present. so, through an emotional void, i tended to sedate myself with drugs and either party with others or read extensively by myself. I gobbled up things like John Keel, Jung, Manly P Hall, Viktor Frankl, and just traditional religious texts of various kinds. I also eventually looked into Peter Carroll and chaos magick, et cetera.

but see, when you're building a house-of-cards-of-drugs in order "stay straight", you dont have much faith in anything at all. and when you have no faith in anything, not even yourself, you will stumble into your own inner demons like a blind man walking in a dead-end alley.

but i was sedating myself to a point beyond any real reconciliation with the things i was avoiding. so i started receiving recurring dreams that would serve to be premonitions. precisely, i had one dream that became a major turning point for the rest of my life. it happened two months after i dreamt it, and it was a very positive thing. from then on, for the next few years, i had varying degrees of this same dream over and over and over. it eventually became the only dream i had. what was first positive was becoming an obstacle. it was here that I began researching dream analysis extensively, and beginning to work with the divination arts like tarot, numerology, and auto-hypnosis to begin probing this dream because it was beginning to serve as a roadblock in my personal development. it was like an unsolvable riddle and it mocked me at times. it was urging me to grow, but i didn't know how, and i wasn't used to the growing pains. these dreams were to eventually be what would pull me out of self-destructive path and find faith in something.

and this is how I was altered. I had no faith in myself or the world around me, I only had faith in sedation. so my psyche granted me soil to unconsciously plant my seeds of growth into--the dreams. ultimately, i found faith in order out of chaos i.e. chaos theory. I have found a great deal of use out of Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, Buddhism and Hermeticism overall. I have made a heaven out of a real hell, order out of chaos. i'm not saying i live a lavish life, but i have peace, whereas I never felt like i was born with much peace at all. i made my own peace. oh and these days i just smoke a little bit of weed sometimes. its been that ways for years now.

but remember this idea of my suspended-belief with these dreams and divination when i discuss Point Pleasant and the Mothman.

I have investigated alchemy primarily with reference to two main thinkers/writers in the area. The first is Jabir ibn Hayyan also known as Geber, and the other is Jan Baptist Van Helmont. Geber is hard to read, as he constantly uses poetic aphorisms to describe what is going on, so you have to also become a bit of an expert in Sufi poetry to get a clue, which detracts from the chemistry somewhat. Assuming I have understood him, Geber seems to have been an early practical chemist, as his work involves the manufacture of a number of medicines and dyes and other routine chemical products that would have seemed like magic in their day. I think his "creation" of gold, likely involved methods of precipitating gold out of a mercury solution which is still used in mining today as an extraction process from crushed ore.

As for Van Helmont, he is the fellow who proved scientifically that plants breathe. I didn't replicate his experiments, but I did sort of decode them. He did an interesting experiment in transmuting mercury into gold via the "philosopher's stone". This he described as a pink crystal. Interestingly, in India there was a naturally occurring deposit of Americanium crystals that were pink in color. As the crystals release neutrons (and are frantically dangerous radioactive material), they can bombard mercury and shift it on the periodic table. This is sometimes called "nuclear gold" and was used to prop up the Soviet economy. Apparently there was also a lot of gold bearing alchemical seals in the royal treasury of Sweden that apparently lost purity over the centuries, as one would expect from radioactive decay, suggesting that some form of radioactive neutron transfer was performed.
I was literally giggling with wonder at your descriptions of these alchemical studies. I am blown away, I love it! Through degrees of separation, I can relate to your use of symbolism to deduce scientific processes, but the chemical lengths you have deduced them to are extremely fascinating. Real alchemy, my friend! Lovely. I think we may be having many future discussions, haha.

While I have certainly read people using Jungian theories on this forum before, you seem pretty convinced that this is the best explanation for most of them. Is that correct? If so I hope you can help me get my head around this question with reference to the mothman.

Now Jung refers to the collective unconscious in much the same way that Buddhists refer to the "storehouse consciousness", so for all these different people to experience the mothman in Point Pleasant is clearly coming from the collective unconscious (which we all share), but what is setting such a phenomenon off? Other towns in the USA have had bizarre mass sightings of local "monster" phenomena without a disaster like the Silver Bridge collapse to act as a geographically local "psychic trigger". It is also unusual for the mothman to be pre-collapse rather than post, if we are arguing for a causal relationship (not going to dwell on it overmuch). I could ask, how do we know we are dealing with a Jungian archetypal vision and not a cryptid, but I am more concerned with what triggers a community to have visions? The only thing I can guess at is a local release of hallucinogenic toxins in the environment. I really look forwards to reading how you approach this question.

You are asking all the right questions! I think that Jungian psychology provides an eloquent explanation for Fortean phenomena, but here's the caveat: I don't think it is the only way to explain Forteanism. i would not be so arrogant! haha. but here is my basic personal pitch of the phenomenological evidence: science has without question demonstrated that symbols can project themselves beyond the inner psyche, into the physical life. this in basic terms is hypnotic suggestions, it is the purpose of dreams, and is the basic idea in neurolinguistic programming, et cetera. it is adaptation propelled by the imagination. it is also the basic idea behind Jungian synchronicities. i always found the idea of synchronicity to be specifically Fortean. Synchronicity in practical terms means that the unconscious mind is recognizing a meaningful sequence of symbols within the conscious state of mind. SOOO what if cryptozoology and cryptids, aliens, angels, demons, etc, are all unconscious projections that are stirred so deeply within the unconscious mind that they in effect physically manifest and take on a life of their own. even Jung himself considered the psychological archetypes as being autonomous.

Now I understand I am getting pretty far-out-there. this is all just philosophical conjecture for fun. but i think there is weight to its implications. but what if, say, a bigfoot hunter is not hunting a physical creature, but conjuring a spirit ie interacting with the electromagnetic phenomena. by the bigfoot hunter researching the history of the data, the location sites, and bringing all the equipment and focusing on the hunt, are they not projecting their desires, faiths, aspirations, and even suspending their belief through hopes that they might come face to face with a sasquatch?

as a case study, i propose the shadow people of sleep paralysis for consideration. the sucubus and incubus of sleep paralysis have been around since Babylon, and they are in a literal sense the initial antagonists of humanity. From Babylon to modern society, these episodes of sleep paralysis describe the exact same thing throughout virtually any and all spirituality. and sure, science has found reasons for why it "Feels" like a sucubus is kneeling on your chest and strangling you, but they still haven't explained why people have hallucinated this very same thing since Babylon. of course, nowadays it is a whole host of encounters. I personally think that most alien abductions can be explained through the shadow people of sleep paralysis. Soooooo many common people experience sleep paralysis on a recurring basis, and they see these sinister shadows, often with red eyes, always doing nefarious things. some people talk about how they've heard the shadows discussing ways to abduct them or torture them, i've heard dozens of these same types of different stories firsthand, and read a countless amount of them online. i actually only experienced sleep paralysis twice as a kid, and it scared the piss out of me but never affected me since. i became interested in it as a case study.

here's where i tie it together: these shadow people leave physical marks. and i think this explains a great deal of poltergeist experiences. but even if they don't leave intense physical marks they leave marks on the patient in this way: fear, insomnia, suppression of the immune system, depression, anxiety, even PTSD. the marks are seen in the terror on the faces of these people as they recount their stories, and sometimes even struggle to hold their lives together.

before he died, I have some brief communication with cryptid researcher and former exorcist JC Johnson of Crypto Four Corners. Not sure if you all are familiar with them, but Johnson documented cryptid phenomena for a very long time, and i once heard in an interview that he was willing to share firsthand footage with people who inquired. so i inquired, and he sent some footage to me. it was footage of Skinwalkers, and interviews with eyewitnesses. the footage, like any footage, was ultimately inconclusive as to what EXACTLY it was, but with heat-vision footage, you can make out the shape and movements of the creature for a very long time, and it is not a hoax. it was so bizarre, it completely blew my mind. i may still have that footage... i will look. also, to make the point shorter, the faces of the witnesses of the Skinwalkers seemed identical to the faces of witnesses of shadow people in sleep paralysis.

is this all starting to come together somewhat?

angels and demons; dreams and nightmares; wonder and horror; it is all human adaptation. alchemy is adaptation of the mind. Richard Dawkins crudely stabbed at it with memetics. Inner symbols create the world around us through using the imagination to use science, mathematics, all the arts, et cetera. it all begins in the mind. this is a very Freemasonic idea. why should it be different with the extraordinary, the unexplainable, the Fortean? all of this can as well be seen in the classical examples of hallucinations on "good trips" and "bad trips" of psychedelics.

thus i bring us to the Jungian shadow archetype. the shadow being everything about the psyche that is unrecognized, unknown, or unable to be processed. when these things are unable to be processed, they build pressure and begin symbolically manifesting themselves in a variety of ways. depending on your personal nature, it could either be a cathartic experience or a traumatic one. it is usually always uncomfortable at first since it means becoming acquainted with the unknown. this is what happened to me through me recurring dream and premonitions, and my work with divination. i stumbled into a confrontation and reconciliation with my shadow, which meant reconciling my opposites and coming to terms with the things in my mind for the better. this is what the hallucinations of sleep paralysis also explain--but to these people with an exceptionally nervous and depressed temperament, the dissonance is far greater and thus more terrifying.

so I don't think that Jungian psychology explains the obvious physical manifestations of this phenomena--but it DOES explain how the human mind interprets this phenomena and becomes readily capable of experiencing this phenomena through an altered state of consciousness. I really hope that all makes sense! I'm trying to summarize the complexities as concisely as possible. The nature of the experience depends on the individual, but that does not mean that it alone stems from the individual or is a mere hallucination alone. it is at this informational threshold that I submit to surrealism and Forteanism overall. If I am being candid, I am open to both the ideas of psychological manifestation to the physical, and the idea of ultra-terrestrial beings in highly special cases.
 

altered_boy

your friendly neighborhood alchemist
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#6
NOW with all that in mind, allow me to tackle Point Pleasant as concisely as possible. Keel was focused on reporting the phenomena more so than he ever was focused on explaining it or interpreting it. although he did philosophize about it and consider scientific data. but he was so personally invested in the phenomena in Point Pleasant. in fact, the whole book does wonders for explaining the total and utter confusion and suspension of disbelief that hung over the people of Point Pleasant, they were all emotionally invested. the nearby case of Indrid Cold is especially interesting for consideration here. my point firstly is that it appears that Keel's best guest overall was that mothman was a prophecy of the emotional resonance and tragedy that was to come, and i've heard people say that mothman was found on the bridge earlier that night of the collapse, but i can't remember where i heard that one.


with all of my points thus far lined up together, it would APPEAR that Point Pleasant was experiencing an intensive state of suspended-disbelief that eliminated inhibition of the unconscious mind and thus the shadow, and left them open for all sorts of unexplainable phenomena.


usually, whether with Fortean encounters or psychotherapy, the analysis is often done in retrospect. meaning that dreams may often help a person cope with something that has already happened, for example. but there are always exceptions to the rule! and sometimes dreams warn people of things to come--this really happens more often than many of us would like to think.


as for how such an intensive, extensive collective hallucination could occur in Point Pleasant? I think it is obvious that there was some sort of government activity in Point Pleasant. So many men in black sightings, some of these surely had to be CIA. i think it is highly likely that Point Pleasant was the testing site of some sort of hallucinogenic gas or something of this nature, relating to psychological warfare. that's the only real explanation i can draw from this. otherwise it is truly explainable currently. maybe some sort of MKULTRA derivative was attempting to investigate the lengths of prolonged exposure to vaporous hallucinogens and inevitably stumbled onto something greater than they ever expected. its certainly only a theory.


HOWEVER, ultimately what I draw from everything I have written here is this: Jungian analysis provides models of explanation for what is undergone in the human psyche during these types of paranormal, Fortean experiences, even mystical or religious experiences. but it only explains one side of the phenomena. so basically, there is a certain altered state of consciousness that is a prerequisite for the paranormal/Fortean phenomena. this is overall called the mystical experience. I often cite psychologist William James as evidence and explanation of the mystical experience. voila!


PS: many of these points can be found with expanded analysis in my book, Dive Manual. I've released the entire first part so far. Here's chapter five, which is the last chapter i will be releasing for a month or two. it's about the divination arts. http://www.thelastamericanvagabond....modern-science-dive-submergence-chapter-five/


Cheers!
 

AlchoPwn

Public Service is my Motto.
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#7
Sweet Jesus Altered Boy, when are you publishing the abridged version of the novel? :freak:

I'm betting you normally post on the Tolstoy appreciation forum. Don't worry, I won't just TLDNR, but that is a lot of info to process. LOL sheesh, I thought my posts were long! Nevertheless it is interesting stuff, so let's dig in.
...(T)his is how I was altered. I had no faith in myself or the world around me, I only had faith in sedation. so my psyche granted me soil to unconsciously plant my seeds of growth into--the dreams. ultimately, i found faith in order out of chaos i.e. chaos theory.
I have read somewhere that the Philosopher's stone can be treated as the "solid place", the "fact" upon which a philosopher can build knowledge. At some point, in the absence of the meaning most people crave in their lives, the brain will create that meaning. For you, this was your healing process, and your sublimation out of the nigredo. As for living a lavish life, please consider, it could be worse, you could be multi-millionairess but be a soft porn star married to Kanye West, and be constantly hounded by the media FFS. As for smoking a bit of weed now and again, I think we will both live to see the decriminalization of it across the globe. For my own part, I prefer mental clarity, but I have certainly had some fun with weed in my younger days, and am not such a hypocrite as to pass any judgement on any soul who does likewise.

I was literally giggling with wonder at your descriptions of these alchemical studies. I am blown away, I love it! Through degrees of separation, I can relate to your use of symbolism to deduce scientific processes, but the chemical lengths you have deduced them to are extremely fascinating. Real alchemy, my friend! Lovely. I think we may be having many future discussions, haha.
Admittedly I had help from family and friends in the endeavor. My dad is quite a chemist, and one of his friends is a long time member of AMORC, so I picked their brains while poisoning myself in my shed for a couple of months. I suspect that some of the mystical experiences the Alchemists may have experienced are a direct result of getting poisoned. On the other hand, to paraphrase Jung, just because you poisoned yourself in your shed and had a vision doesn't mean it wasn't a real vision. I really only gave you the edited highlights of my investigations. For example I discovered that Paracelsus invented zinc cream and was one of the first doctors in Europe who used opium as an anesthetic, and countless other little bits of trivia on the subject.

You are asking all the right questions! I think that Jungian psychology provides an eloquent explanation for Fortean phenomena, but here's the caveat: I don't think it is the only way to explain Forteanism. i would not be so arrogant! haha.
Great, that's a healthy attitude. I personally think there's a good chance that sasquatches are tangible physical animals. Of course the lack of physical evidence is a hurdle, and I certainly haven't ruled out the possibility that they may be wild man archetypes.

but here is my basic personal pitch of the phenomenological evidence: science has without question demonstrated that symbols can project themselves beyond the inner psyche, into the physical life. this in basic terms is hypnotic suggestions, it is the purpose of dreams, and is the basic idea in neurolinguistic programming, et cetera. it is adaptation propelled by the imagination.
Yes, that is unequivocally true. I have even duplicated some of the findings at university back in the day.

Even Jung himself considered the psychological archetypes as being autonomous.
Okay, now that is interesting. I won't pretend I have a fixed opinion on that. I can see arguments both ways. Is it genuine autonomy or merely the appearance of autonomy. Is the autonomy of archetypes genuine or another projection? I concur with the rest of your analysis of angels and demons as being potentially viewed as archetypes though. There is no reason not to analyse them through that theoretical lens, especially when it provides valuable insights.

Now I understand I am getting pretty far-out-there. this is all just philosophical conjecture for fun. but i think there is weight to its implications. but what if, say, a bigfoot hunter is not hunting a physical creature, but conjuring a spirit ie interacting with the electromagnetic phenomena. by the bigfoot hunter researching the history of the data, the location sites, and bringing all the equipment and focusing on the hunt, are they not projecting their desires, faiths, aspirations, and even suspending their belief through hopes that they might come face to face with a sasquatch?
Fear not, it's good conjecture. I enjoyed it. In psychology the term for the ritual process you are alluding to is called "priming" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_(psychology). As you correctly identify, you can view the whole bigfoot hunting expedition as a ritual, and the entire thing is also an exercise in priming. The whole thing works better for ghosts though, as ghosts can take on a variety of odd forms, including complete invisibility, and most people creeping though an old house in the dark will get their adrenaline fix when the wind changes and the house creaks. It is also worth pointing out that the temporal lobe, which is responsible for face recognition will often produce false positives (faces where there are no faces) which are called Simulacra, and which Fortean Times does a regular article on. I sometimes wonder how many cryptid sightings are actually simulacra. I once saw a really F***ed up simulacra that looked for all the world like a crouched malignant crone, but was just light reflecting off a pile of black garbage bags from a particular angle. My blood ran cold, but thankfully I didn't need to change my pants. As a side note, I was listening to a Sasquatch podcast that suggested that some sasquatch have displayed the ability to play havoc with motion sensitive cameras, possibly via electromagnetic interference.

as a case study, i propose the shadow people of sleep paralysis for consideration... I personally think that most alien abductions can be explained through the shadow people of sleep paralysis. Soooooo many common people experience sleep paralysis on a recurring basis, and they see these sinister shadows, often with red eyes, always doing nefarious things. some people talk about how they've heard the shadows discussing ways to abduct them or torture them....
A good choice. Very Jungian, assuming it isn't actually horrid interdimensional monsters etc. :hide::freak::abduct::dalien:
I assume that you are familiar with the work of Michael Persinger on the subject of Sleep Paralysis? Here is a link to the topic of what has jokingly been called Neurotheology in cause someone wants to know:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_religion
Pay particular attention to the magnetic stimulation section. In a documentary on the subject (I think it was this one) https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/god-on-the-brain/
they explained how they managed to track sleep paralysis to those nasty old red LED electric alarm clocks with the fake woodgrain finishes that used to be everywhere. They develop electrical faults, and if they are in proximity to the brain (because someone is sleeping next to one), the brain gets caught in the leaking electromagnetic field and is interfered with leading to sleep paralysis, which often triggers suppressed memories of surgery. Is it the whole picture? Dunno, but I hope it might help some folks sleep better. As I mentioned elsewhere, just because you hallucinated because of a faulty alarm clock doesn't mean it wasn't a real hallucination though, right?

... Richard Dawkins crudely stabbed at it with memetics...
I don't think I agree with you on this point. Memetics is about ideas that perpetuate themselves like viruses i.e. against the survival interests of the host. While memes and archetypes apparently share some common ground, I think they are very different phenomena. Feel free to disagree, of course, you may have a novel spin on the matter I haven't considered, in which case I wanna know plz.
this is a very Freemasonic idea
Pardon me, but I'm not a Freemason, could you elaborate plz? Unless someone is gonna hang you from a bridge at low tide if you do, lol...
 
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AlchoPwn

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#8
so i inquired, and he sent some footage to me. it was footage of Skinwalkers, and interviews with eyewitnesses. the footage, like any footage, was ultimately inconclusive as to what EXACTLY it was, but with heat-vision footage, you can make out the shape and movements of the creature for a very long time, and it is not a hoax. it was so bizarre, it completely blew my mind. i may still have that footage... i will look. also, to make the point shorter, the faces of the witnesses of the Skinwalkers seemed identical to the faces of witnesses of shadow people in sleep paralysis.
I honestly don't know what to make of skinwalkers. On the other hand, that freaked out people look freaked out I don't doubt for a second. I am also prepared to accept that people viewing them may be experiencing a form of sleep paralysis. It has been suggested that schizophrenia may be a form of sleep disorder wherein the dreaming mind superimposes dream images onto the waking world. Now the point when the observer needs to freak out is when both audio and visual hallucinations start up together, because then it isn't an hallucination, they never share both senses.
My best working guess about skinwalkers is that they are some sort of tulpa, i.e. a visually available projection of someone's psyche taking a form designed to induce fear and loathing as part of a program of harassment. You say shadow archetype? You say that Jung offers a good working model of how people react to these things? On the first count I plead ignorance, I just don't know, and on the second I must agree, as it is a useful model.

so I don't think that Jungian psychology explains the obvious physical manifestations of this phenomena--but it DOES explain how the human mind interprets this phenomena and becomes readily capable of experiencing this phenomena through an altered state of consciousness. I really hope that all makes sense!
Don't worry, you make sense to me. In fact I think it is an interesting and valid point that I agree with. Of course the $64 Question is to explain the physical manifestations.
Personally, I blame C'thulhu. :fhtagn: Dozy fucker can't keep his dreams to himself. (jk)

NOW with all that in mind, allow me to tackle Point Pleasant as concisely as possible... the nearby case of Indrid Cold is especially interesting for consideration here.
Ah yes, that Indrid Cold. FFS what was that all about? The infamous grinning man. All in all, given the history of West Virginia, I am inclined to think that Chief Cornstalk didn't so much curse the place as tell the settlers what they were in for.https://www.prairieghosts.com/cornstalk.html I bet even Cornstalk didn't foresee the prescription medication epidemic though. Oh yeas, then there is the Flatwoods monster http://www.science-rumors.com/20-facts-about-the-flatwoods-monster-to-know-what-it-is/.West Virginia is so scenically beautiful, the state is like a beautiful woman with a tragic past living with her completely horrible family in a haunted house. You wish she'd catch a break, but it never happens. As to Indrid Cold, I don't accept the MiB theory, or the alien theory. If anything I would class him as a faerie, and a faerie might as well be an archetype, but an archetype of what? Surely not the shadow again?

my point firstly is that it appears that Keel's best guest overall was that mothman was a prophecy of the emotional resonance and tragedy that was to come, and i've heard people say that mothman was found on the bridge earlier that night of the collapse, but i can't remember where i heard that one.
I don't think even Keel was really satisfied with his conclusions. As to the mothman being on the bridge, here's a purported photo: http://www.science-rumors.com/top-10-mothman-sightings-with-pictures-proved-it-is-real/ voila, hanging off the bridge. I am coming around to thinking mothman may have been the ghost of John Edwin Greiner, who couldn't rest in peace knowing what he knew about Silver Bridge and its shocking state of repair. Apparently it was something of an open secret that the bridge was in trouble but the state govt was skimping on the funds to repair it.

So many men in black sightings, some of these surely had to be CIA. i think it is highly likely that Point Pleasant was the testing site of some sort of hallucinogenic gas or something of this nature, relating to psychological warfare. that's the only real explanation i can draw from this. otherwise it is truly explainable currently. maybe some sort of MKULTRA derivative was attempting to investigate the lengths of prolonged exposure to vaporous hallucinogens and inevitably stumbled onto something greater than they ever expected. its certainly only a theory.
Well, 1968 is well within the time frame for MKUltra or related projects, and the project was active in Kentucky, so it is possible, but without supporting docs, it is mere heresay. I did a bit of combing the CIA declassified archive on MKUltra, but got nothing other than the fact that one of the Congressmen involved in okaying things came from West Virginia. Heh, those were the days, back when the CIA gave out free drugs. Now they charge for them.

I often cite psychologist William James as evidence and explanation of the mystical experience. voila!
LOL I was supposed to read William James back in Uni, but I didn't have time due to GF that week so I only skimmed him. What did I miss? Something good apparently?
 

altered_boy

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#9
Sweet Jesus Altered Boy, when are you publishing the abridged version of the novel? :freak:

I'm betting you normally post on the Tolstoy appreciation forum. Don't worry, I won't just TLDNR, but that is a lot of info to process. LOL sheesh, I thought my posts were long!
Wow! You gave me a great, lengthy laugh this time. I totally earned that Tolstoy comment, lmao. I got the feeling that you ACTUALLY wanted to hear my answers, so I figured I would just write until i felt the points were made thoroughly.

to be 100% honest, i found myself midway through writing those last posts thinking, "jesus christ, how did this get so long? i can't back out now, i've already invested over an hour into this reply" lol. my posts won't normally be that long, but you asked me sooo many questions that I have been dying to share with other Forteans.

i'm really enjoying your thoughts and critiques. I'll reply to your specific points very soon! But I'm still burnt out from the last reply hahahaha
 

altered_boy

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#10
I have read somewhere that the Philosopher's stone can be treated as the "solid place", the "fact" upon which a philosopher can build knowledge. At some point, in the absence of the meaning most people crave in their lives, the brain will create that meaning. For you, this was your healing process, and your sublimation out of the nigredo. As for living a lavish life, please consider, it could be worse, you could be multi-millionairess but be a soft porn star married to Kanye West, and be constantly hounded by the media FFS. As for smoking a bit of weed now and again, I think we will both live to see the decriminalization of it across the globe. For my own part, I prefer mental clarity, but I have certainly had some fun with weed in my younger days, and am not such a hypocrite as to pass any judgement on any soul who does likewise.
lol, i firstly would agree with the sentiment that lavishness is not what it is cracked up to be. as for getting high nowadays, i am only really able to smoke when I write. otherwise, that clarity of mind you speak of is totally lost. once you are sober for long enough you see all clarity that you were muddying and then it just makes it unappealing to degrade such clarity. but cannabis and writing is a different story for me. The "solid place" which which the philosopher can build knowledge upon is another extremely Freemasonic idea, definitely indicative of building the allegorical temple or planting the allegorical seed. I'll get to that in a moment...

Admittedly I had help from family and friends in the endeavor. My dad is quite a chemist, and one of his friends is a long time member of AMORC, so I picked their brains while poisoning myself in my shed for a couple of months. I suspect that some of the mystical experiences the Alchemists may have experienced are a direct result of getting poisoned. On the other hand, to paraphrase Jung, just because you poisoned yourself in your shed and had a vision doesn't mean it wasn't a real vision. I really only gave you the edited highlights of my investigations. For example I discovered that Paracelsus invented zinc cream and was one of the first doctors in Europe who used opium as an anesthetic, and countless other little bits of trivia on the subject.
Hats off to you! Seriously a great story that I'm glad you shared, and I couldn't agree more with your statements. Again i feel like i can relate to you here allegorically.

Okay, now that is interesting. I won't pretend I have a fixed opinion on that. I can see arguments both ways. Is it genuine autonomy or merely the appearance of autonomy. Is the autonomy of archetypes genuine or another projection? I concur with the rest of your analysis of angels and demons as being potentially viewed as archetypes though. There is no reason not to analyse them through that theoretical lens, especially when it provides valuable insights.

See, this is what I love about Jung and his work. He didn't pretend to have a fixed opinion either, and neither do I for that matter. there's a great quote by Jung that i'll paraphrase where he said that the belief proves the need for that belief to be met in some way or another, but it does not actually prove the content of the belief. But Jung stated that their autonomous was entirely self-contained, like he thought they were actual entities. BUT he basically proposed that actual entities and self-imposed projections have no distinguishable differences in the current scientific paradigm and said that this needed more investigation over time. Jung was always very articulate when explaining the differences between his personal philosophy and his scientific research. These days, the two have blurred together.

In psychology the term for the ritual process you are alluding to is called "priming" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_(psychology). As you correctly identify, you can view the whole bigfoot hunting expedition as a ritual, and the entire thing is also an exercise in priming. The whole thing works better for ghosts though, as ghosts can take on a variety of odd forms, including complete invisibility, and most people creeping though an old house in the dark will get their adrenaline fix when the wind changes and the house creaks. It is also worth pointing out that the temporal lobe, which is responsible for face recognition will often produce false positives (faces where there are no faces) which are called Simulacra, and which Fortean Times does a regular article on. I sometimes wonder how many cryptid sightings are actually simulacra. I once saw a really F***ed up simulacra that looked for all the world like a crouched malignant crone, but was just light reflecting off a pile of black garbage bags from a particular angle. My blood ran cold, but thankfully I didn't need to change my pants. As a side note, I was listening to a Sasquatch podcast that suggested that some sasquatch have displayed the ability to play havoc with motion sensitive cameras, possibly via electromagnetic interference.
Thank you for sharing the concept of priming, this is especially a concept that I should be familiar with so I am glad to be informed! All very interesting points that I would concur with, and things that I am quite familiar with. Didn't know the actual term for "simulacra" though, so that's interesting... this is very much getting close to exactly the types of concepts I am speaking of when I say that Forteanism and Jungian psychology/esoterica go hand in hand. Another great connection!

A good choice. Very Jungian, assuming it isn't actually horrid interdimensional monsters etc. :hide::freak::abduct::dalien:
I assume that you are familiar with the work of Michael Persinger on the subject of Sleep Paralysis? Here is a link to the topic of what has jokingly been called Neurotheology in cause someone wants to know...
they explained how they managed to track sleep paralysis to those nasty old red LED electric alarm clocks with the fake woodgrain finishes that used to be everywhere. They develop electrical faults, and if they are in proximity to the brain (because someone is sleeping next to one), the brain gets caught in the leaking electromagnetic field and is interfered with leading to sleep paralysis, which often triggers suppressed memories of surgery. Is it the whole picture? Dunno, but I hope it might help some folks sleep better. As I mentioned elsewhere, just because you hallucinated because of a faulty alarm clock doesn't mean it wasn't a real hallucination though, right?
Very familiar with Persiginer's work, and I very much appreciate it. as or the old LED electric clocks, i used to abhor those things, stopped using them a long time ago, i've never heard of their connection to sleep paralysis but it makes perfect sense. the only thing I would add to that is that this clock is definitely not the source of sleep paralysis activity, but clearly it is some sort of heavy trigger for SP activity. and in the long run you hit the nail on the head, the entire point of the psychological analysis is interpret how the hallucination is manifesting unto the individual. the physical mundane aspects are an essential secondary.

I don't think I agree with you on this point. Memetics is about ideas that perpetuate themselves like viruses i.e. against the survival interests of the host. While memes and archetypes apparently share some common ground, I think they are very different phenomena. Feel free to disagree, of course, you may have a novel spin on the matter I haven't considered, in which case I wanna know plz.
Pardon me, but I'm not a Freemason, could you elaborate plz? Unless someone is gonna hang you from a bridge at low tide if you do, lol...
you only have half the story on this one, my friend. so firstly, i have read a good deal of scientific research about memetics, but full disclosure i have not actually read Dawkins book The Selfish Gene. memetics as a field of study really took on a life of its own that went far beyond that book, and that's what I have read into. a "meme" is a unit of culture that is passed psychologically from person to person like a virus is passed. it actually proposes that a meme has an expressive effect on the gene pool and thus directly contributes to the adaptation principle. in fact, memetic theory suggests that the memetic structure of the mind was a crucial advantage that was necessary for human adaptation. memetic structure allowed for humans to begin working with the archetypes and categorizing them--allowed for humans to begin cataloguing things, like medicines and poisons, and which plants were best to look for, et cetera. those who research memetics propose that memetic structure was the aforementioned "solid place" of the philosopher's mind. it can even be described as the Akashic Records. HOWEVER, i think Dawkins always had more of a negative connotation to the theory, since he looks at religion like a psychological crutch, et cetera. of course, memetics has contributed to all human social maladaptations and have in this way polluted the gene pool. it's no longer so simple as moving forward anymore--we all have to make sure we don't move backwards either. see what I mean?

LMAO to my hanging under a bridge. I am not a Freemason, but I don't talk about masonry lightly. Full disclosure, my great grandfather was a 32nd degree of the scottish rite, a real shriner! I still have his leather masonic belt buckle. his son, my grandfather, is also a mason of the regular branch of blue lodges. didn't take it as far as great grandpa. but both of them had long careers in military engineering. they were both honorable men, but they likely helped with research to make some horrific military weapons. who knows? i've also come across another 32nd degree Freemason and a member of the AMORC over time that I developed friendships with. that's kind of a different story, but it kinda reminds me of you picking the brains of your dad and his friend and experimenting. I can relate to that, like i said, haha.

So i have a working history with it, and have talked with real masons about it. some take the symbolism more seriously than others, but if a person becomes a freemason of the scottish rite, then they simply by default must appreciate the philosophical heritage of freemasonry. ANYWAYS, i'll pitch this basic allegory to you: the legend of the third degree, Hiram Abiff, the original master mason. it states in the Bible that he was the son of a widow, and was the grand architect that designed King Solomon's Temple. As you probably know, the magickal arts of Goetia are the acts of using Solomon's Greater and Lesser Symbolic Keys i.e. theurgy. it is the act of summoning with and communicating with angels, gods, and demons. That Abiff was the son of a widow describes how he was borne of the unconscious mind, represented by the Divine Mother archetype. the Bible also said that Abiff's father was a worker of brass... a metalurgist... and the ultimate meaning of the masonic allegory is that we are all borne of the unconscious mind, and it is up to us to develop our relationship with the conscious world ie the Divine Father archetype. this is symbolized by Hiram's construction of the temple and his dedication to his craft. each mason believes that his mind, body, and spirit coalesce to build the temple of his existence with which he pays tribute to the cosmos. a man's body is his temple. 33 degrees of freemasonry, 33 vertebrae in the spine, the spine signifies the pillar of the temple. as for summoning demons, there is a bit split in masonry. some of them are just evil and enjoy hedonism and spiritual dominance. others propose that demons are meant to be summoned so that they can be banished for ever, because we all have demons like a "monkey on the back". and then there are others who say that proper communication with the gods and angels is all you need to heal. i agree with the last statement, with a healthy consideration of the middle statement as well.

so order out of chaos? this is a classical Freemasonic adage. it is the act of Hiram Abiff created from the chaos of his raw, unfiltered unconscious mind and creating the order of Solomon's temple. it is the hegelian dialectic: thesis + antithesis = synthesis. this means, idea + limitations = planned action. by learning the ways we construct our temple, we learn order out of chaos. we find the philosopher's solid space, the alchemical elixir of the psyche. it is the proper soil, seeds, and the tools and knowledge to grow them.

i think this stems from the unconscious mind's need to communicate its needs. Are you familiar with Julian Jaynes and the BiCameral Mind? it is suggested that when humanity first began developing the brain power to communicate the unconscious mind, that the unconscious came across like an entirely different voice in the mind of a human. thus, one voice ordered, and the other followed.... do you see what I am getting at here? i think that if the unconscious mind has a natural inclination to communicate itself, that Fortean phenomena might actually be an unprecedented byproduct of this state of mind.

I'll leave it at that for now. But suffice it to say I thoroughly enjoyed the rest of your statements and would agree with you. And William James was essential investigating how and why the mystical experience was a literal neurological process that aided people in their adaptation. He was a man that heavily inspired Jung himself.
 

AlchoPwn

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#12
I enjoyed the early part of your post and pretty much agreed with it all, so I guess I'll reserve my comments for the rest of it.

you only have half the story on this one, my friend. so firstly, i have read a good deal of scientific research about memetics, but full disclosure i have not actually read Dawkins book The Selfish Gene. memetics as a field of study really took on a life of its own that went far beyond that book, and that's what I have read into. a "meme" is a unit of culture that is passed psychologically from person to person like a virus is passed. it actually proposes that a meme has an expressive effect on the gene pool and thus directly contributes to the adaptation principle. in fact, memetic theory suggests that the memetic structure of the mind was a crucial advantage that was necessary for human adaptation. memetic structure allowed for humans to begin working with the archetypes and categorizing them--allowed for humans to begin cataloguing things, like medicines and poisons, and which plants were best to look for, et cetera. those who research memetics propose that memetic structure was the aforementioned "solid place" of the philosopher's mind. it can even be described as the Akashic Records. HOWEVER, i think Dawkins always had more of a negative connotation to the theory, since he looks at religion like a psychological crutch, et cetera. of course, memetics has contributed to all human social maladaptations and have in this way polluted the gene pool. it's no longer so simple as moving forward anymore--we all have to make sure we don't move backwards either. see what I mean?
I'm sure that Dawkins would spit blood if you mentioned the Akashic Records. I confess to being pretty skeptical of Edgar Cayce and Mme Blavatsky who brought us the notion of the Akashic Records. I think the Buddhists refer to this phenomenon as the "Storehouse Consciousness", but dressed up with imagery to make it seem august and holy. Your critique of Dawkins is fair. I don't think his theory includes anything about the possibility that memes could be a successful co-adaptation by us to the meme AND the meme to us, so both parties come out ahead. Humans have a working symbiosis with other parasites, e.g. the tapeworm. The tapeworm would consume quite a lot of our nutrition, but it also protected the host from poisons, especially waterborne toxins, and kept humans trim enough to stay healthy and not get obese. It is likely that many of our ancestors survived due to their tapeworms and the protection they provided. The same might be true of memes if we think about it (and think of all the joy "I can has cheezburger?" brought the world)

So i have a working history with it, and have talked with real masons about it. some take the symbolism more seriously than others, but if a person becomes a freemason of the scottish rite, then they simply by default must appreciate the philosophical heritage of freemasonry. ANYWAYS, i'll pitch this basic allegory to you: the legend of the third degree, Hiram Abiff, the original master mason. it states in the Bible that he was the son of a widow, and was the grand architect that designed King Solomon's Temple. As you probably know, the magickal arts of Goetia are the acts of using Solomon's Greater and Lesser Symbolic Keys i.e. theurgy. it is the act of summoning with and communicating with angels, gods, and demons. That Abiff was the son of a widow describes how he was borne of the unconscious mind, represented by the Divine Mother archetype. the Bible also said that Abiff's father was a worker of brass... a metallurgist... and the ultimate meaning of the masonic allegory is that we are all borne of the unconscious mind, and it is up to us to develop our relationship with the conscious world ie the Divine Father archetype. this is symbolized by Hiram's construction of the temple and his dedication to his craft. each mason believes that his mind, body, and spirit coalesce to build the temple of his existence with which he pays tribute to the cosmos. a man's body is his temple. 33 degrees of freemasonry, 33 vertebrae in the spine, the spine signifies the pillar of the temple. as for summoning demons, there is a bit split in masonry. some of them are just evil and enjoy hedonism and spiritual dominance. others propose that demons are meant to be summoned so that they can be banished for ever, because we all have demons like a "monkey on the back". and then there are others who say that proper communication with the gods and angels is all you need to heal. i agree with the last statement, with a healthy consideration of the middle statement as well.
That is an interesting synthesis of a number of ideas. I have always been interested in Freemasonry, but I don't believe in a deity, so I can't really join. I read Iamblichus "On the Mysteries" earlier this year, and it covers a lot of information non-Christian and pre-Christian teachings about Daimons from the Egyptian perspective. What Christian theology teaches about Daimons is in notable contradiction to what was previously taught. Daimons can be evil, and selfish etc, in Greco-Egyptian theology, but they can also be good and helpful. What sets the voices of Gods apart from Daimons is solely this single point... Gods can foretell the future because they see it, while Daimons cannot. This is the art of Divination and where we get the word "Divine" and"Divinity" from. Based on that critereon, one might be hard pressed to assess Jehovah as a divinity at all, given the woeful standard of Christian prophecy. I am always struck with how Jesus foretold that "all the stars in heaven will fall from the sky... within this generation". Not only physically impossible, but it never happened, making Jesus a false prophet, lol.

so order out of chaos? this is a classical Freemasonic adage. it is the act of Hiram Abiff created from the chaos of his raw, unfiltered unconscious mind and creating the order of Solomon's temple. it is the hegelian dialectic: thesis + antithesis = synthesis. this means, idea + limitations = planned action. by learning the ways we construct our temple, we learn order out of chaos. we find the philosopher's solid space, the alchemical elixir of the psyche. it is the proper soil, seeds, and the tools and knowledge to grow them.
An interesting synthesis of the two traditions. Hope to hear more about it. Now I will watch all about those skinwalkers. :)



i think this stems from the unconscious mind's need to communicate its needs. Are you familiar with Julian Jaynes and the BiCameral Mind? it is suggested that when humanity first began developing the brain power to communicate the unconscious mind, that the unconscious came across like an entirely different voice in the mind of a human. thus, one voice ordered, and the other followed.... do you see what I am getting at here? i think that if the unconscious mind has a natural inclination to communicate itself, that Fortean phenomena might actually be an unprecedented byproduct of this state of mind.
From what little I know of Jaynes, I worry he put the cart before the horse a bit theoretically. On the other hand, if we read Homer, the Gods he refers to often come across as being the voices of powerful emotions informing the other characters.

I'll leave it at that for now. But suffice it to say I thoroughly enjoyed the rest of your statements and would agree with you. And William James was essential investigating how and why the mystical experience was a literal neurological process that aided people in their adaptation. He was a man that heavily inspired Jung himself.
I find James as dry as a packet of desiccant you might find in a pill bottle, but I respect his intellect all the same.
 

altered_boy

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#13
I'm sure that Dawkins would spit blood if you mentioned the Akashic Records. I confess to being pretty skeptical of Edgar Cayce and Mme Blavatsky who brought us the notion of the Akashic Records. I think the Buddhists refer to this phenomenon as the "Storehouse Consciousness", but dressed up with imagery to make it seem august and holy. Your critique of Dawkins is fair. I don't think his theory includes anything about the possibility that memes could be a successful co-adaptation by us to the meme AND the meme to us, so both parties come out ahead. Humans have a working symbiosis with other parasites, e.g. the tapeworm. The tapeworm would consume quite a lot of our nutrition, but it also protected the host from poisons, especially waterborne toxins, and kept humans trim enough to stay healthy and not get obese. It is likely that many of our ancestors survived due to their tapeworms and the protection they provided. The same might be true of memes if we think about it (and think of all the joy "I can has cheezburger?" brought the world) .
Edgar Cayce was a probably a short of charlatan. Blavatasky is kinda interesting though. I just use the term Akashic records to be archetypall descriptive. Dawkins could spit out a lot more than blood for all i care, haha. And I have to be persistent here and say that I have done quite a bit of study into memes. Dawkins theories definitely allow room for a successful co-adaptation of the meme AND us. i assure you. i have heard meme theory scientists like Dr. Susan Blackmore and Dawkins mention this sentiment before. They just don't think it happens very often.


From what little I know of Jaynes, I worry he put the cart before the horse a bit theoretically. On the other hand, if we read Homer, the Gods he refers to often come across as being the voices of powerful emotions informing the other characters.
Sounds like you should read more Jaynes ;)
 

altered_boy

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#14
If you are interested. Here's a recent discussion between Susan Blackmore and Jordan Peterson discussing the differences and compatibility of memes with archetypes. They started chatting about it at 11:00. And the only thing that is really meant to be implied by a meme being a "virus" is that it is contagious. Not even Dawkins stated that all contagions are disastrous--just that most are.
 

altered_boy

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#15
Quote from Dr Susan Blackmore's paper "Evidence for a Memetic Drive?"

"Once human ancestors could imitate, memes appeared and began competing to be copied, their success depending on the type of meme and the preferences and abilities of the people doing the copying. Given that at least some of the memes would provide survival benefits, this means an advantage to genes for the ability to copy those memes… As imitation ability increases, more memes will appear and their evolution will take off in various directions, perhaps including the creation of rituals, clothes, body decoration or music, including behaviors that are of more advantage to those memes themselves than to the genes of the people copying them… In this way genes would be expected to track the direction taken by purely memetic evolution and thus we humans have ended up with brains that are not only much larger, but are specially designed to be good at music, ritual, art and, of course, language…”
 
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#16
If you are interested. Here's a recent discussion between Susan Blackmore and Jordan Peterson discussing the differences and compatibility of memes with archetypes. They started chatting about it at 11:00. And the only thing that is really meant to be implied by a meme being a "virus" is that it is contagious. Not even Dawkins stated that all contagions are disastrous--just that most are.
Thanks! I'll watch that later.
 

altered_boy

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#17
Thanks! I'll watch that later.
Glad you found interest! Peterson and Blackmore had this discussion on a Christian talk show of all places… lol. Great conversation though, even the host was fairly cogent.

An interesting synthesis of the two traditions.
BTW sorry for the sprawled-out answers, I’m answering in between working lol.

I'll comment on this a bit more, because I concur with everything else you have said about Christianity, and Iamblichus, etc. I read a bit of Iamblichus a couple years ago when i was studying hypnosis and hypnotic suggestion. I found him to be a wealth of info! It is understood that Freemasonry is essentially a survival of the old Gnostic-Luciferian doctrines—which were the pagans adapting to the post-Christian environment. Roughly speaking of course. The Gnostic idea of Lucifer was that he operated in conjunction with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If anything, Lucifer was somewhat interchangeable with said Holy Spirit. Lucifer here is Promethean, not Satanic. Lucifer and Satan are not interchangeable in any esoteric doctrines aside from Christianity. I’m even inclined to think that Hiram’s father being a metallurgist is a bit of an homage in this sense.

Freemasonry of course deals with the multi-faceted symbolism of “illumination”, archetypally symbolized by Lucifer i.e. light bringer. Same principles in Voodoo rites, and even the pre-Voodoo African rites.

What I’m getting at here is that the Promethean archetype, that of bringing fire to man i.e. innovation/novelty/intellect/self-awareness, etc. is essentially the same motif as that of Hermes bringing forth the messages of the Gods unto man. It is why the Gnostics considered the snake in the garden to be a genuine aid to Adam and Eve that would begin them on their journey towards the Holy Trinity. This whole sentiment is why texts like the Book of Enoch were left out of canonical scripture—Christians tried to scrub out the differences between Lucifer and Satan.

I never personally understood why Luciferianism has seemed to increase in modern popularity over Hermeticism. I always thought Hermes what a much better, more cogent and sophisticated personification of this archetype.

So Freemasonry and Hermeticism have always had a close allegorical similarity. And as far as I have researched, the Hermetic and Masonic organizations have often had a somewhat revolving door between members.

Additionally, the idea of thesis + antithesis = synthesis is not only basic philosophy and simplified alchemy, it is essentially brain science as well. Consider the Right and Left Hemisphere, and their corpus callosum connectivity. Left Hemisphere imposes order onto the word through information structures, and the Right Hemisphere creates novelty. It has even been supposed that through dreams and artwork, information is moved from the right hemisphere to the left hemisphere.

In occultism, the Right Handed Path is the path of order and structure (thesis), and the Left is that of novelty and chaos (antithesis). This is the opposite of how the brain seems to be set up at first… but generally speaking, the Right Hemisphere dominates the left side of the body and vice versa so… it all seems to wash after considering that haha and I find that very interesting. The synthesis occurs between the two. Classical occultism often said that a person had to pick the Right or Left Hand path, but I think synthesis occurs through more of a Buddhistic “Middle Path”.

Anyways I know I’m speaking a bit general with some of the comparisons I am making, but I am trying to be brief with a lot of intertwined threads at once! Lol. And I don't think the generality makes the comparisons suffer.

Cheers!
 

AlchoPwn

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#18
Yes, it was a good interview. Nothing like stories of Skinwalker Ranch to get me ready for a good night's sleep. :)

I am quite interested what you managed to glean about hypnosis from Iamblichus. I agree he is a wealth of info, but I am interested what relevance he has to hypnosis, because it eluded me, but not you apparently. What did I miss?

As to the Gnostic/Luciferian doctrines, I think most Christians would have a complete apoplectic fit if they heard you compare Lucifer to the Holy Spirit. After all, Jesus himself says that you can take his name in vain, but to sin against the holy spirit is unforgivable. The whole area is theologically "fraught".

It is interesting that you head for Voodoo when referring to illumination. I have traced it back to the Allumbrados of Spain, then via other schools of Gnosticism to the Stoics of the Roman Empire, who drew their inspiration from Buddhist missionaries to the Roman Empire, who had been arriving since the time of Alexander the Great. There was lots of traffic between India and Egypt via the Indian Ocean/Red Sea trade route.

As to Luciferianism vs Hermeticism, I think that people felt more antipathy towards the Church in recent years, hence the more anti-Christian Lucifer is preferred. These things come and go.

As to the middle way, I see what you mean, negotiating a path between ideological extremes, but imo that isn't quite what Buddhism means by a middle path. Buddhism is hyper-moral and all about avoiding attachment and performing virtuous acts to avoid bad karma (as good karma isn't a problem). Very right hand path imo.

Now as a treat, in response to your left brain/right brain investigation, here's an article about "alien hand syndrome". It is about what can happen as a side effect when a person with violent epilepsy has their brain surgically split to contain the effect. Very Fortean fun, presuming you aren't the poor soul living with the complaint:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-12225163
 

altered_boy

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#19
Lol to Skinwalker Ranch. i don't know what all think of that but it sure is fascinating and horrific.

I am quite interested what you managed to glean about hypnosis from Iamblichus. I agree he is a wealth of info, but I am interested what relevance he has to hypnosis, because it eluded me, but not you apparently. What did I miss?
You didn't really miss anything, it's just more of an inference on my part. Even if Jaynes isn't entirely correct (not saying he is for that matter, idk), I think the evidence suggests at least some variation of Jaynes' ideas. that being said, extrapolate that evolutionary process and consider it within other disciplines, it seems almost inarguable that concepts of any theurgy, whether it be orthodox or unorthodox, are activating hypnotic, subliminal mechanisms in the mind. Practicing theurgy seems to very literally be a form of hypnosis and hypnotic suggestion, combined with other tactics of course. AND THAT BEING SAID, i don't think this is the whole story... i just think that hypnosis is part of the overall explanation--and it is one of the primary concepts that opens theurgy up to real scientific consideration. i suppose actual manifestations are speculatively possible--especially when considering the whole "transphysical" idea about Forteana that I and others toss around--but I think 99% of magick doesn't have anything to do with these types of manifestations beyond the mind. if they are manifestations, I would say they are "hallucinations", but only for lack of better term. meaning the mind is the activity. like the shadow people and sleep paralysis, for example.

As to the Gnostic/Luciferian doctrines, I think most Christians would have a complete apoplectic fit if they heard you compare Lucifer to the Holy Spirit. After all, Jesus himself says that you can take his name in vain, but to sin against the holy spirit is unforgivable. The whole area is theologically "fraught".
Hahaha believe me they don't like it. I grew up in a southern baptist home, parents from Georgia so I'm fairly well versed in Christian theology. Christian symbolism makes a lot more sense if you drop the "Christian" dogma and just read the symbolism from the esoteric stand point. Christianity has quite a bit to say about alchemy especially when considering the early Christian influences of hermeticism, etc. And I'm not necessarily saying that Lucifer and the Holy Spirit are equivalent by modern standards. But I do think it is fair to say that their original quality stems from the same overall archetype.

So what is your overall take on Rosicrucianism and its symbolism? etc. I found it to really be a key in understanding the esoteric implications of christianity. i used to actually be very offput by the whole Christ thing, but studying symbolism more and more has helped me appreciate it as just one of many useful stories. its not my top pick my any means.

It is interesting that you head for Voodoo when referring to illumination. I have traced it back to the Allumbrados of Spain, then via other schools of Gnosticism to the Stoics of the Roman Empire, who drew their inspiration from Buddhist missionaries to the Roman Empire, who had been arriving since the time of Alexander the Great. There was lots of traffic between India and Egypt via the Indian Ocean/Red Sea trade route.
Voodoo is just the first example that came to my mind, but there are many others. I would be interested in you telling me more! I have looked into such trade routes enough to know that they were happening but I don't know much of the details.

As to the middle way, I see what you mean, negotiating a path between ideological extremes, but imo that isn't quite what Buddhism means by a middle path. Buddhism is hyper-moral and all about avoiding attachment and performing virtuous acts to avoid bad karma (as good karma isn't a problem). Very right hand path imo.
Well when you put it like that I really can't disagree :) i'm glad you got the overall point though!

Now as a treat, in response to your left brain/right brain investigation, here's an article about "alien hand syndrome". It is about what can happen as a side effect when a person with violent epilepsy has their brain surgically split to contain the effect. Very Fortean fun, presuming you aren't the poor soul living with the complain
Well well well, the ol alien hand! I have looked into this some before. You are right on point, these are the kinda things that have helped me formulate my ideas that much more. I also find phantom limb syndrome to be very interesting and fairly similar. Almost like they are inversions each other.
 

AlchoPwn

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#20
Lol to Skinwalker Ranch. i don't know what all think of that but it sure is fascinating and horrific.
The Skinwalkers seem to be a live magical tradition. I have done a little reading on it now, but not enough to claim any expertise. Apparently there are 4 (Navajo) Dine traditions of black magic, and they are taught in a hongan (lodge) facing west to the setting sun not east towards the rising sun. It seems very similar to elements of African black magic where practitioners invert their rituals and their lifestyle to introduce bad elements. For example, they do their circles in the cremated remains of babies (allegedly), as opposed to pollen. The (Navajo) Dine say that the skinwalker is totally evil and they get their power by killing one of their family members. I am never so certain about such things. It is also possible that the skinwalkers serve as a supernatural army defending Dine territory. Consider the evidence of skinwalker ranch in that regard. If the tradition were entirely evil, why is it attacking the Utes in the heart of their territory, when the Utes (from which we get Utah btw) are enemies of the Dine? Surely an entirely evil force would never help the Dine at all, and instead we see the skinwalkers defending Dine land, by making it uninhabitable to the Utes. It is worth noting that the skinwalkers show a decent amount of restraint in not attacking the people on skinwalker ranch directly, but simply try to evict them by making the place freaky and financially disastrous.

You didn't really miss anything, it's just more of an inference on my part. Even if Jaynes isn't entirely correct (not saying he is for that matter, idk), I think the evidence suggests at least some variation of Jaynes' ideas. that being said, extrapolate that evolutionary process and consider it within other disciplines, it seems almost inarguable that concepts of any theurgy, whether it be orthodox or unorthodox, are activating hypnotic, subliminal mechanisms in the mind. Practicing theurgy seems to very literally be a form of hypnosis and hypnotic suggestion, combined with other tactics of course. AND THAT BEING SAID, i don't think this is the whole story... i just think that hypnosis is part of the overall explanation--and it is one of the primary concepts that opens theurgy up to real scientific consideration. i suppose actual manifestations are speculatively possible--especially when considering the whole "transphysical" idea about Forteana that I and others toss around--but I think 99% of magick doesn't have anything to do with these types of manifestations beyond the mind. if they are manifestations, I would say they are "hallucinations", but only for lack of better term. meaning the mind is the activity. like the shadow people and sleep paralysis, for example.
Fair enough. I would have said theurgy was meditative, but I suppose we each bring our assumptions to the mix, lol. It seems perfectly reasonable to view meditation as a form of self hypnosis and vice versa.

Well well well, the ol alien hand! I have looked into this some before. You are right on point, these are the kinda things that have helped me formulate my ideas that much more. I also find phantom limb syndrome to be very interesting and fairly similar. Almost like they are inversions each other.
They are both very unusual conditions, and what they suggest about the human condition is pretty odd. In terms of the phantom limb, many people who experience pain in these severed appendages have been healed by hypnosis, getting them to mentally uncurl their phantom limb and cease feeling pain there. In terms of alien hand syndrome, the notion that different halves of one's brain can get into a fistfight is pretty alarming. We must wonder how much of a "passenger" we really have, lol. You would think one's own brain halves would see the wisdom in cooperating? Apparently when you split them, that need not be the case. I wonder what set the alien hand off to mount an attack like that?
 

skinny

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#21
This has been a fascinating conversation, lads. Long may it continue, quite sincerely. AB, I wholeheartedly support your intent to unify these experiences into a cogent thesis. It isn't easy. Keep on. I'm of a mind that sits with the idea of alchemy being an inward transformative process of the human person in all that they are. That's possible through many means and ways. Physical gold from lead - pish.

I look forward to what you (and anybody else posting) have to say about Hermes Trismegistus. I know nothing.
 

altered_boy

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#22
This has been a fascinating conversation, lads. Long may it continue, quite sincerely. AB, I wholeheartedly support your intent to unify these experiences into a cogent thesis. It isn't easy. Keep on. I'm of a mind that sits with the idea of alchemy being an inward transformative process of the human person in all that they are. That's possible through many means and ways. Physical gold from lead - pish.

I look forward to what you (and anybody else posting) have to say about Hermes Trismegistus. I know nothing.
Much appreciated, skinny. I'm just happy to contribute to thorough conversation with like-minds. I can definitely say that I am no master but I am an ardent student of Hermeticism. the altered_boy name is an old pun of mine, a play on "altered states" and "alter boy" that i thought was very alchemical and humorous. but think it tends to come across trans-gender at times in this current climate? lol. but yeah man long story short you'll always hear me talking about alchemy/Hermeticism. Cheers :joint:

The Skinwalkers seem to be a live magical tradition. I have done a little reading on it now, but not enough to claim any expertise. Apparently there are 4 (Navajo) Dine traditions of black magic, and they are taught in a hongan (lodge) facing west to the setting sun not east towards the rising sun. It seems very similar to elements of African black magic where practitioners invert their rituals and their lifestyle to introduce bad elements. For example, they do their circles in the cremated remains of babies (allegedly), as opposed to pollen. The (Navajo) Dine say that the skinwalker is totally evil and they get their power by killing one of their family members. I am never so certain about such things. It is also possible that the skinwalkers serve as a supernatural army defending Dine territory. Consider the evidence of skinwalker ranch in that regard. If the tradition were entirely evil, why is it attacking the Utes in the heart of their territory, when the Utes (from which we get Utah btw) are enemies of the Dine? Surely an entirely evil force would never help the Dine at all, and instead we see the skinwalkers defending Dine land, by making it uninhabitable to the Utes. It is worth noting that the skinwalkers show a decent amount of restraint in not attacking the people on skinwalker ranch directly, but simply try to evict them by making the place freaky and financially disastrous.
Well that is a helluva way to consider the concept. very concise to. i will have to ponder this a bit more, as I still have some pretty undeveloped ideas about the grand-scheme of the skin walker idea. i like your angles on this!

As to the Gnostic/Luciferian doctrines, I think most Christians would have a complete apoplectic fit if they heard you compare Lucifer to the Holy Spirit. After all, Jesus himself says that you can take his name in vain, but to sin against the holy spirit is unforgivable. The whole area is theologically "fraught".
So I know I already asked you about your rosicrucian ideas to a degree, but the recent i brought it up again in my last post was because I am curious as to what you mean when you say that Christianity is theologically "fraught". mind you, if it is fraught it wouldn't upset me at all, i'm just curious where you find the inconsistencies. certainly there are a lot of throwaway lines but the alchemical and even Hermetic traditions found subtly in the bible are rich when read in context. hence, Rosicrucianism, as far as I see it. do you mean that classic-average-joe Christianity is fraught?

They are both very unusual conditions, and what they suggest about the human condition is pretty odd. In terms of the phantom limb, many people who experience pain in these severed appendages have been healed by hypnosis, getting them to mentally uncurl their phantom limb and cease feeling pain there. In terms of alien hand syndrome, the notion that different halves of one's brain can get into a fistfight is pretty alarming. We must wonder how much of a "passenger" we really have, lol. You would think one's own brain halves would see the wisdom in cooperating? Apparently when you split them, that need not be the case. I wonder what set the alien hand off to mount an attack like that?
I must save a more detailed consideration of these ideas for later, but I think this has to do with the psyche's tendency to highlight negative tendencies like sounding an alarm. why else would something like a shadow person manifest while someone is sleeping, why would people feel guilty about anything or try to get clean from drugs? its because they've attracted ways of life/thought patterns that manifest pretty intense disconnects, like feeding the monkey on your back or the devil on your left shoulder. but by doing so, sometimes we find the allegory of the phoenix ya know? rebirth from the ashes. anyway i think alien hand syndrome may have something to do with this principle, like the unconscious mind saying something like, "hey man, what the fuck do I do with this hand now? we need to address this." lol. but this is my of a stab in the dark for me, idk
 

altered_boy

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#24
Please expand and expound at will.
I'd be happy to! But for now I'll have to sleep. For now I will say that I have a trusted network of adept friends, usually older than me and not associated with each other, who have pointed me in the right directions at times. but i am not associated with any organizations and never have been. when you consider alchemy as a sort of "universal transformation process", especially of the psychological variety, it really makes clear the recurring threads of this transformation processes in basically any given religion. Taoism has actually served to aid me quite a bit as well, i find this to be a sort of eastern Hermeticism. kinda like the Tao is the wings of Hermes or something, but I'll elaborate on that later.

more than anything else, I have come to study Hermeticism simply because of my fascination with writing, and art as an alchemical transformation process. at a fairly early age i stumbled into some very interesting stories, like befriending an Iraqi refugee in Anchorage, meeting these other people I mentioned above, and even hashing out serial killer cases with filmmakers, journalists, and police officers. Through The Last American Vagabond I stumbled into investigating human trafficking and politics long before all this weird controversial stuff like Pizzagate. I'm not trying to bring that shit up--i think it's a distraction. But I came to talk the cops who first worked the Son of Sam case, and the colleagues of Maury Terry who wrote The Ultimate Evil about the Process Church of the Final Judgement. it's a long story, very interesting, especially when considering the people i talked to. officers who worked the case firsthand, Jim Rothstein and Mike Codella, who said that the cases were shut too early and involved cults and human trafficking, etc. the filmmaker was Josh Zeman, known for his documentary Cropsey and his show The Killing Fields. I've also spoken some with private investigator Ed Opperman of the Opperman Report, whose connected with the research of these things.

i had to walk away from all of that eventually. i didn't know what to do with it all, and I am telling you this now briefly because it taught me the power of the written word. i wouldn't have come into contact with nearly any of these people if I had not been so fascinated with writing, and ultimately Hermeticism. it has been the thing that has driven me on my journeys and that is why I will forever remain a student of Hermes.

more to come later!
 

skinny

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#25
I look forward to more.

Can I ask you, have you had difficulty focusing on one thing at a time since childhood?
What do you consider to be the significance (if any) of the number forty-two?
 

skinny

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#26
....In relation to all you and AP have been discussing, the Title of your thread, etc.
 

AlchoPwn

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#27
Much appreciated, skinny. I'm just happy to contribute to thorough conversation with like-minds. I can definitely say that I am no master but I am an ardent student of Hermeticism. the altered_boy name is an old pun of mine, a play on "altered states" and "alter boy" that i thought was very alchemical and humorous. but think it tends to come across trans-gender at times in this current climate? lol. but yeah man long story short you'll always hear me talking about alchemy/Hermeticism. Cheers :joint:
Thx from me too Skinny. As to altered_boy being transgender, lol, I never considered that, and on the internet where we are just words on a page I am not certain there is an environment where it matters less. I, btw, am not a famous 1920s gangster boss with chronic syphilis either (for the record), so, sry to disappoint. :monty:

Well that is a helluva way to consider the concept. very concise to. i will have to ponder this a bit more, as I still have some pretty undeveloped ideas about the grand-scheme of the skin walker idea. i like your angles on this!
I find it never hurts to actually contextualize the evidence and consider the situation from the eyes of the "bad guy" if you can. I have to say, that as far as magic powers go, I haven't ever really considered the value of turning into an animal as a worthwhile objective.

So I know I already asked you about your rosicrucian ideas to a degree, but the recent i brought it up again in my last post was because I am curious as to what you mean when you say that Christianity is theologically "fraught". mind you, if it is fraught it wouldn't upset me at all, i'm just curious where you find the inconsistencies. certainly there are a lot of throwaway lines but the alchemical and even Hermetic traditions found subtly in the bible are rich when read in context. hence, Rosicrucianism, as far as I see it. do you mean that classic-average-joe Christianity is fraught?
Actually, what I meant by "fraught" is that so few people really know why Jesus was so upset about insulting the Holy Spirit, and most of the ideas they have are wrong. Obviously your garden variety Christian will be appalled at the notion of comparing Lucifer to the Holy Spirit, and would start banging their head on the side cabinet shrieking about how you were "dark sided", and try to get you thrown off the PTA or some-such. So you are certainly right about that. As to Lucifer and Luciferianism vs. the Holy Spirit, the belief slips into gnosticism, which held that Lucifer was a liberator. It really all comes down to the question of the whole Garden of Eden myth, and whether you think Adam and Eve were immortal prior to eating the apple or not. If you don't think they were immortal, then God is a lying bastard and not to be trusted, i.e. you're a gnostic of some stripe, even though you may never have experienced gnosis. If you think they were immortal, then Lucifer is a bad guy (or the snake, anyhow, who may or may not be Lucifer/Satan, or might just be a progenitor of snakes, or just a phallic symbol). As to the notion of the Holy Spirit within the teachings of Jesus, the whole point of what Jesus was teaching was the daily cultivation of the Holy Spirit so you can eventually embody it all the time, which leads to the performance of miracles. Arguably every sin is a sin against the Holy Spirit, as every sin occludes the Holy Spirit within you, and only confession, repentance, penance, and taking the host can restore it. On the other hand, almost no sin is really a sin against the Holy Spirit other than consistently and deliberately living against one's own nature and God. I personally don't think that mere words can be considered a sin within my own interpretation of theology, but that is akin to saying ever sermon ever delivered is bollocks when you develop the idea. As someone who leans more towards Buddhism than Christianity, or any other religion, I have the luxury of treating Christian Theology as a purely theoretical debate about the absurdity of Christian dogma and its applications in philosophy and lifestyle.

I must save a more detailed consideration of these ideas for later, but I think this has to do with the psyche's tendency to highlight negative tendencies like sounding an alarm. why else would something like a shadow person manifest while someone is sleeping, why would people feel guilty about anything or try to get clean from drugs? its because they've attracted ways of life/thought patterns that manifest pretty intense disconnects, like feeding the monkey on your back or the devil on your left shoulder. but by doing so, sometimes we find the allegory of the phoenix ya know? rebirth from the ashes. anyway i think alien hand syndrome may have something to do with this principle, like the unconscious mind saying something like, "hey man, what the fuck do I do with this hand now? we need to address this." lol. but this is my of a stab in the dark for me, idk
Neurologically, the alien hand is super interesting. It means that the two halves of the brain are really all-but separate people. The Left brain is supposedly logical, and the Right is intuitive. This is a gross oversimplification though. The fact is that the Right Brain can't talk, and is often a passenger in life, relegated to the back seat and forced to shut up. The alien hand is when the Right brain is given the opportunity to assert itself. For example, say the alien hand syndrome person is at a football match. They are having a good time and cheering, but the right hand side of their brain doesn't like football since it got its leg broken at age 8, and it also doesn't like loud noises, so it tries to cover the mouth to stop the noise. Of course the left hand side grabs the wrist of the other, and pulls it away, but the right hand side slips the grip and starts choking the neck. Suddenly the poor person is in a punch up with their own inarticulate passenger over something they would otherwise take for granted. It is more than a little amazing.
 
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AlchoPwn

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#28
This has been a fascinating conversation, lads. It isn't easy. Keep on. I'm of a mind that sits with the idea of alchemy being an inward transformative process of the human person in all that they are. That's possible through many means and ways. Physical gold from lead - pish.
Well, the fact is that we are now quite able to turn lead into gold scientifically. You bombard lead with a stream of neutrons and the atomic nucleus starts jumping rows on the periodic table (so to speak), i.e. it gains density and its properties change. I understand that Sweden had a lot of alchemical gold in its treasury from the renaissance, and that has since had its isotope decay back to lead. We also know that the Soviets used to prop up their economy by producing gold this way. Interestingly, there seems to be evidence to suggest that India once had pink americium crystals that Van Helmont used to produce alchemical gold. FFS don't try it though, neutron bombardment if done in anything approaching an amateur fashion is lethal.

I look forward to what you (and anybody else posting) have to say about Hermes Trismegistus. I know nothing.
Hermes Trismegistus is a very interesting subject. There is a lot of reason to suppose that he is a syncretic deity (like Serapis), composed of Thoth aka Tarhuti and Hermes aka Mercury, and quite possibly also Imhotep; and thus a fusion of Egyptian and Greek thought. He is first mentioned in the 1st Century AD in literature from Alexandria. The title "trismegistus" means "thrice great" and is given as he was the author (auctor) i.e. grand-daddy and original producer of... the arts and sciences. Trismegistus is also a title of Thoth, who was often titled "the great, the great the great" in Egyptian literature, as a sign of pious appreciation. The two main works about Hermes Trismegistus are "The Divine Pymander" and "the Emerald Tablet", but the body of literature that survived the destruction of the Great Library of Alexandria and later came to Firenze/Florence via Syria is also called the "Corpus Hermeticum". During the Renaissance as the works came to Firenze/Florence and were translated by Marsilio Ficino and Pico De La Mirandola, there was something of a "New Age Movement" started around the works, which mightily pissed off the Church. The Hermetic literature went increasingly underground and the Rosicrucian movement began as a result. It was a rich man's hobby however, and never gained broad acceptance. Great fortunes were squandered trying to figure out how to turn lead into gold based on the works of Zosimus and Maria the Jewess (Alchemists). Hermes Trismegistus was long hailed as a magician on par with Merlin and Solomon, i.e. one of the big names in the field. Of course, a good deal of what is written and referred to as Hermeticism is in an allegorical form that is hard to understand. This led to one of the early chemists of the scientific age, Robert Boyle, to use the term "Gibberish" to describe the allegories in the alchemical works of of Jabir Ibn Harun, and is a strong contender for the etymological origin for the terms "gibberish", and "jabbering", despite the obvious onomatopoeia.
 
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#29
Good on ya, AP. I've gleaned most of that from online texts.
I'd like to know if you and AB have ever met the triune deities? Tried to summon them? Evocations etc?
 

AlchoPwn

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#30
Good on ya, AP. I've gleaned most of that from online texts.
I'd like to know if you and AB have ever met the triune deities? Tried to summon them? Evocations etc?
That's more Wicca than Hermeticism as far as I am aware. Oh, wait, I suppose technically YHVH is a triune god. :points:
 
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