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"Astrology Isn't Bullsh*t!"

Hi GD,

I know what you mean - I was expecting it so I noticed it when otherwise I wouldn't have etc. etc. Fact is when you experience it for yourself you know what actually happened. What happened as far as I am concerned does not have an explanation other than astrolgy (at least as practised by that arologer works).
 
Have there been any studies of whether people who use astrology (or other forms of divination) have better or worse lives than people who don't? By better/worse I mean measurable things like financial gain/loss as well as more subjective things like happiness etc.

I ask this because most people who use astrology etc. do so because they think it makes their lives better (even if that just means "more fun"), so a sociological-type study might be more appropriate than a physics-type "does astrology give predictable results" sort of thing.
 
a psychological study would be more appropriate. This way we try to examine cognition, environment and social factors, while taking the care to apply scientific method. But, once you have taken out all the bs, you will find that astrology is no better than cold reading. Look up the barnum effect and if they give the health or life examples of question, apply them to some friends under the guise of 'something psychic'... :twisted:
 
Your assumption seems to be that astrology would have to meet some standard of accuracy (compared to what?) to be useful. But what if (say) the mental effort of applying the astrological statement to your personal situation causes you to see things in a new light? Might this not be of help? My contention is that it's quite possible you're right about astrology's accuracy, but that it (or even cold reading) might none the less be of some measurable benefit to people. That's why I proposed the type of study I did.
 
If I had experienced what plusk reports happened to him, I would be convinced too. I would probably not start making financial decisions based on astrology but I would share in the statement that "there's something to it...". I'm all for healthy skpticism and applying critical reasoning, but c'mon, these are some pretty specific predictions. They should be enough to AT LEAST make a skeptic start entertaining a few questions.

Arguing just for a second that there IS something to astrology after all, I think the interesting question would become: what SORTS of events in one's life does it predict, and does it predict all, most, or just a few of them? Did plunsk have many other significant events in his life that the astrologer didn't predict? Is this like the Keel-ian and Ouija-board-like phenomena that give us a spooky taste of "something out there" without really giving us anything useful or verifiable, or is it something that one could apply in some practical way?

I think it would be possible to devise an experiment around this question and the question of prediction accuracy. Get a top notch astrologer (who issues the credentials for these folks....?) to make predictions for 100 specific different birthdates over a duration of one year. Unknown to the astrologer, half of those 100 birthdates are bogus, and half belong to 50 actual people. Get those 50 people to keep journals for a year, making brief descriptive entries on significant events of each day and rating their "significance", but without letting them see the predictions. Randomly assign each of the 50 people one of the bogus birthdates as well. At the end of the year, perform an analysis of the degree to which the predictions for each person's actual birthdate and the predictions for their bogus birthdate correlate to events in their journals. One should be able to devise a uniform scale for assigning a degree of correlation, and quantify the rate of positive and negative correlations, including both predictions that didn't come true and actual events that weren't predicted.

I'll start writing the grant proposal this weekend.

If after a year I was not convinced, she would buy me dinner and vv.
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Uh, what's vv? And where can I find a gorgeous astrologer to buy me some?
If she was that gorgeous, I'd have been checking in frequently on the progress of the experiment and continuing to discuss exploration of non-rationalist paradigms. The hell with scientific detachment....
 
Sri Lanka astrologers see better times after vote

Sri Lanka astrologers see better times after vote
Sun Nov 13,11:28 AM ET



Sri Lankan astrologers have predicted their fortunes will rise after Thursday's presidential election and see the opposition leader as the candidate with the stronger horoscope.

The Association for the Propagation of Vedic Astrology said Sunday that former Premier Ranil Wickremesinghe was the rising star according to his horoscope. His manifesto may have also helped.

The seers had also pored over the election pledges of candidates and found only Wickremesinghe had promised an "Astrological Council" to boost the fortunes of the practitioners.

"Yes, we will have a better time if the opposition leader wins the election," the association's leader Ananda Seneviratne told AFP. "But our calculations show he is winning."

The soothsayers, who had remained unusually quiet during the campaign, made the surprise announcement after a private opinion poll put Wickremesinghe six percentage points ahead in approval ratings.

"What is dead sure is that it is going to be a close fight," said Seneviratne. "But looking at the birth charts and the country's horoscope, we clearly see Ranil (Wickremesinghe) winning."

The association has a membership of up to 7,000 and meets every Sunday to compare notes, Seneviratne said, adding that the consensus was Wickremesinghe was leading.

Political analysts have steered clear of making any predictions, saying the election was too close to call. Prime Minister Mahinda Rajapakse is seen as Wickremesinghe's only serious challenger.

Seneviratne said 85 percent of the country's 19.5 million people believe in horoscopes and politicians are known often to be guided by their personnel fortune-tellers.

The army is known to have launched offensives against Tamil Tigers at auspicious times decided by astrologers rather than military strategists.

Even code-names for military operations have been decided by seers.

Sri Lanka
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Astrology unscientific

SCIENTIFIC researchers investigating astrology have concluded there is no evidence to support a link between personality, intelligence and birth dates.

The study of more than 15,000 people found "in no cases did date of birth relate to individual differences in personality or general intelligence".

The authors, from universities in Germany and Denmark, wanted to further examine a link between date of birth and sun signs in astrology, but found "no support".

Writing in the May edition of Personality and Individual Differences, the authors said: "We conclude that the present large-scale study provides no evidence for the existence of relevant relationships between date of birth and individual differences in personality and general intelligence."

". . . if there is some truth to astrology then some general effects of prominent astrological factors like sun signs should be detectable using large enough samples.

"The present large-scale study certainly found no independent effects of sun signs, elements, or gender, and thus yields no support for the common claims of astrology."

TV astrologer Russell Grant said the survey needed to distinguish between the "pop" astrology and "proper" astrology.

"We all know that the sun signs are used in newspapers and magazines as a form of entertainment because we cannot sum up all people in terms of 12 signs," he said.

"But proper astrology is based on where all the planets are at the exact time of someone's birth, and that has been used for thousands of years."

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story ... 22,00.html
 
Excellent ted. I also love the distinction between pop and proper astrology. I nearly spat out my tea :lol:
 
"But proper astrology is based on where all the planets are at the exact time of someone's birth, and that has been used for thousands of years."
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What about all the 'extra' planets that have been discovered during those "thousands of years"? Did Pluto, for example, only start to affect the course of our lives once we knew it was actually there? And what about all the new planetoids that seem to be discovered every week these days? Is Mr Grant planning to include all those in his 'proper' birth charts?
 
I have to be honest, I have heard all the crap related both to (my stepdad is an astrologer) and against (I personally do not believe in astrology) Astrology.

I have skipped most of the posts on this board. I really don't care for "scientific" reasoning. Most scientists will tell you that Forteana doesn't exist.
That's right, Bigfoot is a fallacy, Nessie is bunk, and if you even mention UFO's you should be condemned to a lunatic asylum.

Henceforth, here is my "unbiased" experience....

There are certain correlations between Mercury being direct and it being retrograde. That's right, I don't even know what the difference is, but I'm aware of how it affects us. Mercury being retrograde is a good time for planning, but a bad time for action; vice-versa, it being direct indicates opportunity for action and likewise a bad time for planning.
 
Hi TBM,
Although it's hugely politically incorrect to say so, there's a line in Shakespeare which I suspect has more truth in it than one might suspect.

"When beggars die, there are no comets seen, the heavens themselves blaze forth the death of princes".

Michel Gauquelin's study concluded that astrology worked (slightly) for the most famous athletes, general etc. not for the hoi polloi.

In my own humdrum life I have noticed that at times of emotional peaks, financial crises etc. newspaper astrologers seem to be a bit more relevant than during ordinary times.

So a mas study of ordinary people at random times in their lives is likely not to show up anything significant.
 
Indian court considers astrology a science
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/short ... -indi.html
17:30 4 February 2011
Science In Society

Priya Shetty, correspondent, Mumbai

Go on, admit it, you probably take a sneaky peak at your horoscope in the newspaper now and then, out of idle curiosity of course.

In India, a country legendarily associated with mysticism, millions live their daily life by what the stars dictate. Rituals to commemorate births and deaths - the bookmarks of our lives - only take place at auspicious times of the day and month. Marriages are often nixed, no matter how in love a couple may be, if the horoscopes don't match.

Even so, the news that on February 3, the Bombay High Court threw out a case questioning the validity of astrology and related practices such as reiki, feng shui, and tarot cards, is worrying.

astrology-science.jpgA travelling astrologer in Ooty Bazaar, Ootacamund, Tamil Nadu, India (Image: David Beatty / Robert Harding/Rex Features)

According to The Times of India, an Indian NGO called Janhit Manch had filed the public interest litigation. But as the Supreme Court of India has already ruled that astrology is a science, the High Court dismissed the case:

So far as prayer related to astrology is concerned, the Supreme Court has already considered the issue and ruled that astrology is a science. The Court had in 2004 also directed the universities to consider if astrology science can be added to the syllabus. The decision of the apex court is binding on this court

The judges' decision comes at a precarious time for India. The nation is investing heavily in positioning itself as a global scientific superpower. But its science academies are sometimes less than rigorous and its science community can be disappointingly silent on key issues.

Astrology's scientific credentials have popped up in the ferocious debates over religion versus evolution in the US. In 2005, during the landmark court case in which parents of children taught Intelligent Design (ID) in a Pennsylvania school sued their school board, ID proponent and witness Michael Behe admitted his definition of a "theory" was so broad that astrology would qualify.

In that instance, the court room erupted in laughter, and the parents won the case - although the teaching of evolution in US schools remains under threat.

Eager to wow the world, like the US, India has set up its own costly space programme. But confusing astrology with science makes the nation less credible as a scientific superpower.
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I'm currently reading a crime novel (surprise, surprise!). However, it includes lashings of Fortean stuff - a ghost cat, a kitten and a squirrel with messages to impart, a psychic and an astrologer...

Frankly, it's all a bit over the top for me, especially when an old lady says "Mercury is retrograde, and that's especially hard for Leos like you". She adds, "Mercury is the messenger. When he goes retrograde, it doesn't only mean that you may be misunderstood. You may be misunderstanding others as well."
That, I thought, is bullsh*t, because Mercury doesn't go retrograde!

In astronomy, retrograde has two meanings.

1. It denotes a body that orbits around its primary in the opposite direction to the rotation of its primary. In the solar system, some of the outer satellites of Jupiter are retrograde, as is Halley's Comet.

2. It denotes an apparent temporary backwards movement of the outer planets against the stars. This is a line of sight effect caused by the faster Earth 'overtaking' the planet 'on the inside'.

But neither of these conditions apply to Mercury! I wondered if there was a separate definition in astrology, so I looked at the astrology threads here. To my surprise, I found this:
MercuryCrest said:
There are certain correlations between Mercury being direct and it being retrograde. That's right, I don't even know what the difference is, but I'm aware of how it affects us. Mercury being retrograde is a good time for planning, but a bad time for action; vice-versa, it being direct indicates opportunity for action and likewise a bad time for planning.
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But MercuryCrest doesn't seem to know what 'retrograde' actually means! Before I throw the novel down in disgust, does anyone know what the astrological meaning of retrograde is? Are there tables where you can look it up?
 
You're correct, sir! I didn't know what it meant...until just now.

Apparently, it's all down to perception.

Because of the way the Earth and the other planets both rotate and orbit, retrograde is an apparent backwards motion!

That is, the planet isn't actually rotating backwards (or orbiting; see, I still don't know what the hell I'm talking about) but rather, it appears to be.
 
Next I tried a google search, and one of the first sites I found was this:
http://www.cafeastrology.com/mercuryretrograde.html
Although not quite as popular as Sun sign astrology, "Mercury Retrograde" has certainly become a buzzword - or buzz phrase - these days.

What is Mercury Retrograde? Three, and sometimes four, times a year, the planet Mercury appears to be moving backwards in the sky for a period of approximately 3 weeks. "Appears" is the key word here, because, technically speaking, no planet actually moves backwards in their orbits around the Sun. In fact, they don't even slow down. Retrograde-station-direct cycles are essentially illusions that result from our point of view from Earth, simply because the Earth is also orbiting the Sun at a different speed than the other planets. Mercury turns retrograde more frequently than any other planet. It can never be more than 28 degrees from the Sun, and whenever it reaches its furthest distance from the Sun, it changes direction.
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Well, that seems almost clear! (But I could quibble about 'changes direction' - with respect to what? The Sun, yes, but not to the stars - at least, not at the same time.)

But there is another slight problem. Because Mercury is so close to the sun, it only appears in the dawn or dusk skies, when (generally speaking) no stars are visible. So it was never possible, before the modern era, for observers to see this 'retrograde motion'.

This seems to be a case of astrology piggybacking a ride on modern astronomy, aided no doubt by the many computer programs available that show planetary positions at any date. Because nobody has ever seen Mercury going retrograde!

However, this does justify the novel's inclusion of the astrologer, to the extent that some people do believe in the influence of 'retrograde Mercury'. So I won't throw the book away - besides, it's due back at the library next week! ;)
 
MercuryCrest said:
You're correct, sir! I didn't know what it meant...until just now.

Apparently, it's all down to perception.

Because of the way the Earth and the other planets both rotate and orbit, retrograde is an apparent backwards motion!

That is, the planet isn't actually rotating backwards (or orbiting; see, I still don't know what the hell I'm talking about) but rather, it appears to be.
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Gracious of you to admit the limits of your knowledge!

But how did you come to hear about Mercury Retrograde in the first place? How far back does this idea go?
 
The big problem with Astrology and Astronomy is that the names are the wrong way round.

Ology is the study and onomy is the naming.

Frankly, until this is sorted, it's all bolloxed.
 
I think at first astronomy was pretty much limited to naming.
 
But how did you come to hear about Mercury Retrograde in the first place?
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My stepdad was an astrologer and my mom believes in it.

After hearing a few passing comments about Mercury retrograde, I asked about it.

Since then, I've noticed an apparent correlation.

Because I'm rather pragmatic (unless it becomes expedient to not be), I don't actually care about the root cause. If it's complete coincidence, but that coincidence stays valid in the future, why not take it into account in my nefarious schemes?
 
I can imagine that being born at different times of the year does have some influence on your character development, certainly in a country with marked seasons. Your experiences in your first few months are likely to be substantially different if you are born in say November compared to an April birth.

It affects you at school as well are you relatively young or old compared to the rest of your class etc.. Maybe doesn't matter so much when you are in your teens, but nearly a years difference at 5 or 6 is quite significant.

I've also wondered if the extremely minor variations in gravitational pull might have an effect on the development of the foetus. Too tiny, I expect. But I'm a Libra and have to consider all possibilities :)
 
Astrologers look to the stars to help Indian businesses
By Rahul Tandon
BBC News, Delhi
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-25971921

astrologer and client

India's astrologers are increasingly advising on more than just auspicious wedding dates

It is another busy day for Abhishek Dhawan in Delhi. His phone has not stopped ringing and he has a series of business meetings.

Many of his business clients want to know when is the best time to release their products.

Abhishek has been studying a number of factors and charts to try to help them. But he is not a marketing guru or an economist - he is an astrologer and he uses the position of the stars and the planets as a guide to help businesses maximise their profits.

Traditionally, astrologers have helped set wedding dates or check if the stars of potential brides and grooms match up.

Continue reading the main story
“
Start Quote

Many businesses in India consult astrologers before launching a product ”

Abhishek Dhawan
Astrologer
It is a multimillion-dollar industry that is part of everyday life in the world's largest democracy.

But now they offer a whole series of different services as well.

Go online and you will find astrologers telling you which shares to buy, while others will help you predict which way the rupee is going to move or the price of gold.

Not everyone is a believer though.

SEBI, the Securities and Exchange Board of India, the organisation that regulates the country's stock market, has warned investors "not to be guided by astrological predictions on share prices and market movements".

'Auspicious date'
But many here are ignoring that advice.

And that is good news for the likes of Abhishek Dhawan. His company, ask.ganesha.com, has seen the number of business clients double in the past year.

Many other online astrology companies have recorded similar growth.

He tells me: "Many businesses in India consult astrologers before launching a product as they need to know an auspicious date."

He pauses for a moment and then smiles as he says: "If the forces of nature are with you, you will have a better life - if they are against you then it will be a struggle."

When I ask Abhishek what his success rate is, he answers immediately. "Eighty per cent - this is like a science and when we make mistakes it is because people do not provide us with the correct information."

A palm reader and posters advertising his services
Many Indian firms will consult an astrologer before launching a product
So how widespread is the use of astrology in the financial sector?

Good luck - or not?
Ramjit Ray runs a corporate communications company in Calcutta and helps some of India's largest companies market their products.

Continue reading the main story
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For me astrology is not a factor - I would rather look at other factors like the market scenario”

Raj
Business student
"Many companies will consult an astrologer before they name a brand," he says.

"They will want to know how many letters it should have and whether the name is going to bring them luck or not.

"Even when we are doing a large event, sometimes we will have to consult an astrologer before deciding where we place a stage."

Ramjit, who is in his early 40s, is an example of the new successful young Indian businessman. So what does he make of the use of astrology in the modern world of Indian business?

"It is an important part of our lives," he tells me unhesitatingly.

"And it is based on a logic which is related to the way that we live our lives through our religion."

'No scientific basis to it'
Not far from Ramjit's office, a group of business students is having a cup of tea.

Astrology is not part of their course, and when I ask them if they would ever use astrology for their business decisions they look at me as if I were mad.

Astrologer Abhishek Dhawan
Abhishek Dhawan says his astrology is 'like a science'
"For me, astrology is not a factor. I would rather look at other factors like the market scenario," says Raj, one of the students.

Before I can ask him another question, his friend Alok stops sipping his tea and adds: "No way would I ever consult an astrologer - it has no scientific base to it at all."

As I walk away I can hear some of his friends murmuring: "Ridiculous, who would ever consult an astrologer on serious financial matters?"

But there is the question of whether these students' views really do reflect a changing attitude towards astrology.

Business analyst Mudar Patherya is sceptical that a new generation of Indian business leaders will turn their backs on this ancient tradition.

"Yes, there are some who think that it is all mumbo-jumbo," he says.

"But there are many others who believe that there is a science to astrology and that if you plan what you do according to the stars or the planets, your investment or product will be profitable."

Astrologer and two clients
Astrology may be unscientific to many, but others are keen to seek guidance from the stars
That is good news for astrologers like Abhishek Dhawan. Every day he gets new requests.

His latest one is what colour a company should use to brand its new product - do the stars recommend blue for success?

He is getting ready to turn his phone off for the day and go home. Before he does - maybe I should get some financial advice.

Now, what time was I born...?
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