Black-Eyed Kids

[Anonymous]

Jerry, if the BEKs were just the work of his mind, how do you account for the fact that three other people saw these same archetypes - albeit one saw them in a dream?

I'd account for it, by pointing out that Mr Bethel is the conduit for all of these stories.

They're 'tales' he says and 'true,' but I do declare, I detect a sort of shaggy dog vagueness round the edges.

The fact that the all black eyes 'SFX' have a sort of up to the minute, hippness about them makes me very supicious. A bit too much of a mixture of 'Buffy' vamp of evil and 'X Files' alien grey, for my liking.

"I am a professional journalist and I am telling the truth." And don't journalists always tell the truth?

Well, I'm an amateur consulting cynic, with a degree in semiotic studies. It's my job to detect bollox, it's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.

Campfire Tales for car dependent yuppies, frightened of the alien environs of the decaying inner city (and it's even more alien Wild Boy style youth) and hot wired for the Internet Age.

 

[Jerry_B]

Jerry, if the BEKs were just the work of his mind, how do you account for the fact that three other people saw these same archetypes - albeit one saw them in a dream?

I agree with what Androman says above.

And just because other people claimed to have seen something similar doesn't make it true, of course.

 

[ginoide]

especially because, as andro points out, <Mr Bethel is the conduit for all of these stories>. there is no <independent source> for these stories, the only source is mr. bethel. plus, he uses the word <tales> himself...

 

[Bannik]

And just because other people claimed to have seen something similar doesn't make it true, of course.

That this whole thing could be an internet hoax perpetrated by Mr. Bethel with a little help from his chatroom buddy was not lost to me. I find your theory interesting which is why I keep coming back to it - not because I think its lame or anything like that. I got the impression that it was your opinion that this was not a fabrication, and I wanted to see how you accounted for the other claims (assuming they're true) according to your theory. Does the same thing apply to them - that they were seeing subconscious projections of their own phobias?

I also find it curious that Mr. Bethel seems to be the center for all this. I've never read stories involving BEKs before, and then in one sitting I read three, all of which happened either to Mr. Bethel, or to a friend or associate of his.

 

[Jerry_B]

I think the originator of this story may have some psychological problems, or stresses. Not that he's mad or anything like that, but it seems as if there is something coming out from his subconcious. And I'm not saying there's anything actually 'wrong' with him mentally, but it sounds to me as if something is being thrown up by his subconcious. For what reasons, one can only guess.

As to the other 'witnesses', that doesn't really add anything to his story in the long run. People may also claim similar experiences for their own reasons, which may or may not be as 'real' as the original experience claimed by Mr. Bethel.

 

[Imperial_Call]

I read both versions of the BEK stories yesterday and didn't give it much thought till I was going to bed, all of a sudden I got a bad case of the heebeegeebees, I was in the bathroom and I was too scared leave there and go to my bedroom (all of 15 feet away), all the lights were on, but I just couldn't make myself step over the threashold of the bathroom door. I stood there for ages utterly caking myself, I was only eventually able to persuade myself to move because I didn't fancy having to explain myself the next morning. I ran, ran I tell you, to my room, pausing only long enough to switch lights off en route. Once I was in bed I lay there wide-eyed, rigid with fear, staring at the mirror (which is at rightangles to the bed). I did fall asleep (clutching a torch in my sweaty hands) eventually, but kept waking up and staring at the mirror (it's not near enough to the bed for me to see into it) ... Now that creepy feeling is something I associate with my teenage "alien abduction" years, something about the story obviously caused a "flashback", so I'm wondering are the children, described in the stories, a mask memory - i.e. something the brain conjures up to "cover" the real memory - of alien abduction?

 

[Anonymous]

Call me little miss cynical but the fact that the writer of these stories uses this....

S E E K E R * O F * W I S D O M
S E A R C H E R * O F * T R U T H
S P I N N E R * O F * S T O R I E S

(italics mine)

....as a sig kinda sets alarm bells ringing in my mind.

 

[Jerry_B]

Now that creepy feeling is something I associate with my teenage "alien abduction" years, something about the story obviously caused a "flashback", so I'm wondering are the children, described in the stories, a mask memory - i.e. something the brain conjures up to "cover" the real memory - of alien abduction?

Hmm, that may simply add another layer of obscurity. I mean, are the 'abduction memories' that may lie underneath 'real' in any way either? I don't get the impression that this is the case in this instance.

 

[Imperial_Call]

Dunno Jerry, are "alien abductions" mask memories of something else? I have no idea what my "alien abduction" is masking, and if my psyche is maskign it then maybe I don't want to know ...

I seem to remember reading somewhere that "Abductees" will often have nightmares of owls, or large birds, or animals that have large dark eyes - the animal being "placed" over the actual image the brain is hiding ... so why not have a mask image of kids?

 

[Jerry_B]

IIRC, there is some doubt that the 'mask memories' that are claimed to be covers for abduction aren't embellishments themselves. Whether 'alien abductions' are a cover for memories of something else is another subject altogether. But IMHO it's perhaps not healthy to assume that because they're frightening they actually cover up something significantly bad within your subconcious. What may have frightened when you were very young and which subsequently got thrown back into your subconcious (as it was still itself being formed) wouldn't necessarily scare you now. The behaviour may act in the same way as phobias do to one's concious and subconcious mind.

 

[Imperial_Call]

Uh, OK ....

 

[Jerry_B]

I hope I haven't offended you. It's just that there could be a more mundane reason for abduction experiences, which lies within the subconcious as a result of certain things. But this doesn't mean that those things are necessarily bad. The whole subject has become muddled by the whole 'alien abduction' industry. Very few of us can rememeber how our minds worked when we were children or very young, which is probably why phobias can seem to spring from 'nowhere', even though they probably have their root in some past event that can't be conciously recalled.

 

[TulipTree]

I'm interested in the idea that young people are the villains in this story. What makes the 8-14 age range scary? Is it the random, unthinking, sometimes dangerous things younglings do? Some of our worst fears being: petty vandalism, having pockets picked, mean words, or even having a child cry wolf (a sure fear in some professions these days)? Not voicing a personal prejudice here. I was a kid myself, once, and a terror too.

Since kids can be a little unnerving, you'd think it would be a common theme in folklore. I searched a few books on folk, fairy and spirit creatures looking specifically for malevelant beings that mimic young humans, with or without black eyes. I am by no means an expert on folklore, but the closest I could find were the Buachailleen (Book-a-leen) also known as The Herding Boys. They are known to be tricksters and can be cruel (to 4 legged, barn dwellers).

Are there more examples of frightening children in folklore than I know of? Or are we watching new folklore being born.

 

[Bannik]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that "Abductees" will often have nightmares of owls, or large birds, or animals that have large dark eyes - the animal being "placed" over the actual image the brain is hiding ... so why not have a mask image of kids?

Do "abductees" ever have nightmares of Praying Mantises (note they have black eyes)? I've always had a fear of them (I don't think its strong enough to be called a phobia) yet a sense of familiarity with them as well. When I look into their eyes, I feel as though I'm looking into the face of something from my early childhood, but what I can't recall. They seem like the most 'alien' thing on Earth to me, yet they seem 'familiar' at the same time.:hmm:

 

[wembley8]

"So this strange man gave you some money 'for a movie' - even though you had missed the movie - and he invited both of you pre-teen boys into his car."

Am I the only one who thinks that people are missing something here??

(and I hardly need to mention the connection with dilated pupils, but you can get your black contact lenses here - http://www.lensesbymail.com/black_contact_lenses_-_non-prescription.htm
The old fashioned way was to use something called Belladonna for the same effect)

 

[TulipTree]

Yeah, I'm afraid I was thinking the same thing Wembley. Some elements and turns of phrase in both his stories and the story of his friend, jump out as though highlighted in boldface. I wasn't sure how to say it nicely, though. Nicely done, by the way. If he does have those types of problems, may children frighten him into catatonia forevermore.

Even with that, people have responded to the story with interest. When I was a pre-teen, kids weren't considered scary. Anyone could scold us, and if my mother found out someone else had to scold me for something, I got yelled at again more thoroughly. Today, a parent is more likely to defend her child's right to pull up someone elses flowers. "How dare you interfere with my child's happiness!". Do people feel more helpless around children today? Is that making children a new source of fear?

 

[LeapingEri]

Do people feel more helpless around children today? Is that making children a new source of fear?

Well, I can't help thinking of the classic 1960 movie Village of the Damned. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054443/ Highly intelligent weird kids who grow too fast - very creepy! You just don't expect kids to be supernaturally powerful. And the movie The Bad Seed, featuring an evil and dangerous little girl, came out in the 50s. These movies can either be taken as expressions of the fear of children OR the fear that children - so innocent and non-threatening - might turn into something else.

 

[Bannik]

As to the other 'witnesses', that doesn't really add anything to his story in the long run. People may also claim similar experiences for their own reasons, which may or may not be as 'real' as the original experience claimed by Mr. Bethel.

You're right of course. I guess curiosity gets the better of me sometimes and I love to speculate - and hear others' speculation - on such things even when there is nothing to go on but somebody's claim.

Even with that, people have responded to the story with interest. Do people feel more helpless around children today? Is that making children a new source of fear?

Tulip, I have no fear of young or pre-teens that I am aware of - or muppets for that matter. I find both of Brian's stories interesting - especially when taken together - because there are so many ways to look at them (sadly, including Wembley and yours:blah: ). For example, I'm familiar with the theory in demonology that demons often try to disguise themselves as something familiar (kids) and even comforting (muppets), but that there is always something that "gives them away." A common thread in Brian's stories is the giveaway, i.e. black eyes in the former, and fangs and talons in the latter. I'm not saying what Brian actually saw were demons, but that's just one way to look at it. Or, as Jerry said, they could be his subconscious at work. As neither encounter is with anything easily identifiable (a grey or werewolf for example), there is more room for speculation, which is fun.

 

[TulipTree]

Originally posted by Bannik
I guess curiosity gets the better of me sometimes and I love to speculate - and hear others' speculation - on such things even when there is nothing to go on but somebody's claim.

Me too! We could build a whole case for these younglings, easily. I really looked in my books for some reference, some similarity in older lore to add weight to the story and back it up because I wanted to validate it. But I couldn't find anything (not that I have the definitive source books). There are many creature sightings that are both old and new, the incubus / succubus, little gnomey people, wild men of the woods (sasquatch types), lake creatures. But black eyed kids, if real, seem to be new.

I really love a good story and a good urban legend. But it's nice to draw a line, too. This: probably not. This: definitely maybe. This: I believe it wholeheartedly, leave the lights on please.

 

[TulipTree]

Originally posted by Eri
These movies can either be taken as expressions of the fear of children OR the fear that children - so innocent and non-threatening - might turn into something else.

Hmmm. So it's not new in the past few decades, but is it new western civilization 20th century? Am I reaching here? I keep trying to think of folklore that includes evil children who target adults and I just can't remember any.

 

[Jerry_B]

Pixies, faeries, etc. sometimes appear as childlike entities in folklore, so that may be one root.

 

[Anonymous]

I can't think of any folklore warning about evil children. I agree, there's lots of stuff where the demon takes human form but doesn't get it right (like the devil's inability to change his cloven hooves). I admit, these BEK stories scare the bejazus out of me, even now, and I came across them a couple of years ago. But they do have all the ingredients of Urban Legends; they're scary, they're detailed enough to be true; we can picture them happening. Even now, when I lock the front doors at night, I'm scared to look outside just in case. And I know how ridiculous that sounds.

BEK do appear to be a new phenomena. The Muppets sound like a bad nightmare; I'm fairly certain I've had similar ones involving cute little black kittens wanting to come into the house, and when I've opened the front door to let them in, they turn into huge black entities with malice aforethought. Very vivid nightmares, where my mother has found me sitting up in bed, screaming the house down, actually miming the actions of trying to force a door closed with something pushing against me.

There also appears to be touches of Twilight Zone about it all, although I'm not totally familiar with all the stories so I'm not sure if they appear in them.

The other thought that comes to mind - I remember a few years ago now, the story of a woman who reported being chased by demonic bikers through the countryside. The police could find no evidence, but the woman was adamant. What they did find, however, was a leaking can of De-Icer in her car, the fumes from which (it was said) caused her to hallucinate something she was terrified of. Her son had recently bought a motorbike, and she was terrified of Hell's Angels type bikers.

Now pay attention - you see that whacking great conclusion over there? Well, I'm going to jump to it without the aid of a safety net

Both times the BEK's were saw, there were cars running their engines; once in a garage. Perhaps the fumes? Perhaps they had leaking cans of de-Icer? Perhaps they made the whole thing up? One thing is for sure - I would never have a 'Welcome' mat outside my front door, no matter how much I protest I don't believe in vampires (okay, not those kind of vampires, anyway). And I don't believe the guy/guys saw BEK. But that doesn't stop it scaring the hell out of me.

 

[TulipTree]

Originally posted by JerryB
Pixies, faeries, etc. sometimes appear as childlike entities in folklore, so that may be one root.

I thought of them, but they look like little adults. Maybe it's our concept of childhood that's changed. Back then, maybe you were either too young to work (a child) or old enough to work (an adult). A pre-teen would have equaled a young adult.

That would definitely make the connection. Thanks, Jerry.

 

[Bannik]

We could build a whole case for these younglings, easily. I really looked in my books for some reference, some similarity in older lore to add weight to the story and back it up because I wanted to validate it. But I couldn't find anything (not that I have the definitive source books). There are many creature sightings that are both old and new, the incubus / succubus, little gnomey people, wild men of the woods (sasquatch types), lake creatures. But black eyed kids, if real, seem to be new.

The only thing I've found (before I read the BEK story) was here:

CHAMELEON - Reptilians genetically bred to enable themselves
to appear 'human'. These are allegedly 'infiltrators' which can
look remarkably human outwardly although retaining reptilian or
neosaurian internal organs. Often described as appearing 'bulge-
eyed' with scaly, hairless skin behind their 'disguise'. One
report alleged that the 'Chameleons' may utilize artificial
'lenses' to conceal "slit-pupiled iris'". Some claim they are
genetically bred 'mercenaries' in a planned invasion-takeover of
human society (Draconian).
DRACO-BORGS - Cybernetic forms controlled by reptilian
entities. These would also include those forms which are
animated by fallen supernatural or paraphysical entities, whether
of 'gray,' 'human-like', 'mechanical' or other configuration.
There are some who suggest that human-appearing 'infiltrators' of
this type may exist in our society, and that certain
characteristics might give them away--i.e. the eyes, a slightly
sulfurous smell, unrefined features such as no fingerprints or
ears or other 'body' parts which seem to have a slight
'artificial' appearance (Draconian).

 

[TulipTree]

Originally posted by Helen
I can't think of any folklore warning about evil children.

I think we'd better keep our doors locked for the time being. We might be dealing with evil elves.

Fumes, or even a kind of spontaneous leap in and out of a dream state. Couldn't perfectly ordinary people have a little glitch sometimes resulting in a vivid waking dream hallucination? That only makes me feel slightly better. For all my reaching for mundane explanations, I'm a believer that some paranormal events are objectively real. Therefore, I am sometimes ascared of the dark.

And yes, I do have a paranoia that there are unfriendly little people living in the ground that only come out at twilight. I confess my insanity. So, the black-eyed children frighten me as possible gnomies.

 

[TulipTree]

Good one, Bannik. There are a lot of stories of meeting people who don't look quite right. I think I read a whole thread of them here somewhere. Their appearance, the words they use, their clothing, little giveaways that says all is not quite as it seems. Spooky stuff.

 

[Anonymous]

For all my reaching for mundane explanations, I'm a believer that some paranormal events are objectively real. Therefore, I am sometimes ascared of the dark.

I wholeheartedly agree. Just because sometimes there's a rational explanation doesn't mean there's always a rational explanation. Surely this is the whole thing about Forteana? And, despite some cries to the contrary, it's not so much I want to believe and I want to know

And, for the record, I too am sometimes scared of the dark.

 

[Imperial_Call]

I hope I haven't offended you. It's just that there could be a more mundane reason for abduction experiences, which lies within the subconcious as a result of certain things. But this doesn't mean that those things are necessarily bad. The whole subject has become muddled by the whole 'alien abduction' industry. Very few of us can rememeber how our minds worked when we were children or very young, which is probably why phobias can seem to spring from 'nowhere', even though they probably have their root in some past event that can't be conciously recalled.

No you haven't offended my, you used words of which I have no understanding [bit on the t'ick side me] ...

Before I heard the expression "alien abduction" I'd had a dream as a child, which I'm sure I'll have mentioned elsewhere on the MB, gist of it was I got up one night and went into the living room, there were people there, but they weren't my parents or brothers, they were short squat [nekked!!] tan coloured persons, and I vividly recall they had huge black eyes ... at least I always thought it was a dream ...

 

[Imperial_Call]

Do "abductees" ever have nightmares of Praying Mantises (note they have black eyes)? I've always had a fear of them (I don't think its strong enough to be called a phobia) yet a sense of familiarity with them as well. When I look into their eyes, I feel as though I'm looking into the face of something from my early childhood, but what I can't recall. They seem like the most 'alien' thing on Earth to me, yet they seem 'familiar' at the same time.:hmm:

Dunno about the Mantises, I've never personally had a nightmare about birds, reptiles or other large dark eyed animals, it was something I remember reading somewhere, which might have been Whitley Streibers book - I know the cover of his book Communion (which I have since given away) used to scare the shit out of me, that tan face with the big black eyes that used to follow you around the room ...

 

[Jerry_B]

Some people I know claim to get the same effect from Munch's 'The Scream' - which goes to show that such things are different things to different people.