Black People Hanging From Trees = Suicides?

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Spookdaddy

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A noose knot - with 8, 9 or 13 turns (depending on which tradition you hold to) - is a very particular thing; a specific traditional design for the specific purpose of killing people, beyond which it has little practical value. Granted, the extra turns ensure the knot will not 'let go', but the number involved in a traditional noose is technically superfluous; any properly tied slip knot could be used to strangle someone under their own weight, and I can only assume that the several turns involved are symbolic (nine lives, unlucky thirteen...not sure about the eight*), or are maybe a practical process involved in ensuring the knot will stand firmly behind and below the left ear, in the traditional manner.

A fixed loop is not the same as a slip knot. A noose is a slip knot. Fixed loops and slip knots are not at all designed for the same purposes and are not interchangeable - suggesting loops might be taken for nooses just shows technical ignorance, whichever side of the argument it comes from.

That said, it's impossible to tell from the garage photo whether the knot in question is actually a noose. The relatively long thicker section above the loop certainly gives the appearance of one - but, although I might place a modest bet on it, I maybe wouldn't swear to it in a court of law.

However - speaking theoretically - if I were to walk into a garage and see an actual noose hanging by a door then I really would assume that some form of offensive symbolism was involved. A proper noose knot is more difficult to tie than much more practical alternatives, it uses more line than is necessary, and - probably most importantly - it will automatically close up around the fingers of anyone pulling on the loop, quite severely so if used to lift anything of any weight. As a supposed 'garage door pull' such a thing would be not only be ridiculously over complex for the job in hand, but really quite painful to use. (I would also add that what I see is a rope with some form of loop on it hanging by a door; the garage door pull thing is just as much an assumption as anything else - in my experience with sizeable industrial unit doors like this one they tend to be continuous loops, and formed of chain, rather than rope.)

I doubt the symbolism of a noose knot has the impact anywhere else in the world that it does in the southern states of the US, and in any situation beyond hanging a man, a properly tied noose knot is technically pointless - therefore, if you do come across one, it's perfectly valid to ask what the point actually is.

*In my time I've been a climber, a hemp house flyman and a rigger - and have had to learn a lot of rope work along the way. I own the bible of knots (yes, there is one - and it is about the size of a substantial religious epic), Clifford W Ashley's, The Ashley Book of Knots. Ashley mentions the traditions of nine and thirteen in regard to the number of turns on a noose, but states that he learned the knot using eight turns. There is a lot of symbolism in traditional knot work - and I wonder if eight turns actually could refer to nine lives, the ninth being the one temporarily contained within the loop.

Incidentally I’m pretty sure that noose knots of this type were not employed in England for an awful long time, if they ever were. The English method - at least from the early 1800's - seems to have relied on a rope passing through a metal ring.

Edit: On a technical point (yeah, okay - I'm a knot nerd) adjustable loops are often described as slipknots, slipped knots, nooses, running knots etc. Confusingly though, although often used as generic descriptions, in some cases the terms also refer to specific individual knots. Where I’ve used ‘slip knot’ I’ve used it in its more modern general sense of an adjustable loop – whereas, back in the day, Ashley insisted the term referred to only one specific type of adjustable loop.
 
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Yithian

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A noose knot - with 8, 9 or 13 turns (depending on which tradition you hold to) - is a very particular thing; a specific traditional design for the specific purpose of killing people, beyond which it has little practical value. The extra turns ensure the knot will not 'let go', but the number involved in a traditional noose is technically superfluous; any properly tied slip knot could be used to strangle someone under their own weight, and I can only assume that the several turns involved are symbolic (nine lives, unlucky thirteen...not sure about the eight*), or are maybe a practical process involved in ensuring the knot will stand firmly behind and below the left ear, in the traditional manner.

A fixed loop is not the same as a slip knot. A noose is a slip knot. Fixed loops and slip knots are not at all designed for the same purposes and are not interchangeable - suggesting loops might be taken for nooses just shows technical ignorance, whichever side of the argument it comes from.

That said, it's impossible to tell from the garage photo whether the knot in question is actually a noose; the relatively long thicker section above the loop certainly gives the appearance of one - I might place a modest bet on it, but I maybe wouldn't swear to it in a court of law.

However - speaking theoretically - if I were to walk into a garage and see an actual noose hanging by a door then I really would assume that some form of offensive symbolism was involved. A proper noose knot is more difficult to tie than much more practical alternatives, it uses more line than is necessary, and - probably most importantly - it will automatically close up around the fingers of anyone pulling on the loop, quite severely so if used to lift anything of any weight. As a supposed 'garage door pull' such a thing would be not only be ridiculously over complex for the job in hand, but really quite painful to use. (I would also add that what I see is a rope with some form of loop on it hanging by a door; the garage door pull thing is just as much an assumption as anything else - in my experience with sizeable industrial unit doors like this one they tend to be continuous loops, and formed of chain, rather than rope.)

I doubt the symbolism of a noose knot has the impact anywhere else in the world that it does in the southern states of the US, and in any situation beyond hanging a man, a properly tied noose knot is technically pointless - therefore, if you do come across one, it's perfectly valid to ask what the point actually is.

*In my time I've been a climber, a hemp house flyman and a rigger - and had to learn a lot of rope work along the way. I own the bible of knots (yes, there is one - and it is about the size of a substantial religious epic), Clifford W Ashley's, The Ashley's Book of Knots. Ashley mentions the traditions of nine and thirteen in regard to the number of loops on a noose, but states that he learned the knot using eight turns. There is a lot of symbolism in traditional knot work - and I wonder if eight turns actually could refer to nine lives, the ninth being the one temporarily contained within the loop.
Function: I have (inexpertly, but following instruction, and didn't bother with as many loops) tied a noose for a non-murderous purpose.

Several chaps and I hauled half a tree up a 35⁰ slope to chop up and use as timber atop a plateau, and a knot that didn't slip and could be tightened was precisely what we wanted (so we could get it over the nubs of the hacked off branches and then snugly around the trunk).

But I don't live in the States.
 

Spookdaddy

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Function: I have (inexpertly, but following instruction, and didn't bother with as many loops) tied a noose for a non-murderous purpose.

Several chaps and I hauled half a tree up a 35⁰ slope to chop up and use as timber atop a plateau, and a knot that didn't slip and could be tightened was precisely what we wanted (so we could get it over the nubs of the hacked off branches and then snugly around the trunk).

But I don't live in the States.
Timber hitch - much more practical.

Effectively, though - what you tied was some form of adjustable loop. The symbolism of the actual noose knot is, essentially, in the impractical and unnecessary number of turns. If you didn't do the turns, you didn't tie a noose knot. It's all about the symbolism.
 
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blessmycottonsocks

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Just remembered we had this collection of nautical knots, that my wife brought back from St Malo, hanging in a bathroom.

A few of them could suffice as loops for pulling something.

The hate crime "le noeud du pendu" is at the lower right.

knots2.jpg
 

Naughty_Felid

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Just remembered we had this collection of nautical knots, that my wife brought back from St Malo, hanging in a bathroom.

A few of them could suffice as loops for pulling something.

The hate crime "le noeud du pendu" is at the lower right.

View attachment 27526
"Nascar asked officials at every track to check their garages this week. Nascar said out of 1,684 garage stalls at 29 tracks, only 11 had a garage door pull-down rope tied in a knot. The only one fashioned in a noose was the one discovered Sunday by a crew member in Wallace’s No. 43 garage stall."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/25/nascar-noose-photo-talladega-bubba-wallace

 

blessmycottonsocks

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"Nascar asked officials at every track to check their garages this week. Nascar said out of 1,684 garage stalls at 29 tracks, only 11 had a garage door pull-down rope tied in a knot. The only one fashioned in a noose was the one discovered Sunday by a crew member in Wallace’s No. 43 garage stall."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/25/nascar-noose-photo-talladega-bubba-wallace

Not the first time that The Guardian has spouted fake news.

That cord loop was photographed in 2019 - before that particular garage was even allocated to Wallace.

Also, NASCAR garagecam videos from 2017 (click on the link in the NY Times article below) show multiple similar cord loops used as door pulls.

These date from before Wallace even started with NASCAR.

I really don't get why you (and presumably Ramon) seem so desperate to turn this non-story into a "hate crime" when it clearly is not.

We seem to be living in febrile times, with an unhealthy obsession with skin colour. Fake news stories such as this, spread by those with a dangerous agenda and disseminated by an increasingly irresponsible press merely add to the air of toxicity.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/24/nascar-videos-show-multiple-nooses-before-bubba-wallace-incident/

IMG_1039.JPG
 

Naughty_Felid

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Not the first time that The Guardian has spouted fake news.

That cord loop was photographed in 2019 - before that particular garage was even allocated to Wallace.

Also, NASCAR garagecam videos from 2017 (click on the link in the NY Times article below) show multiple similar cord loops used as door pulls.

These date from before Wallace even started with NASCAR.

I really don't get why you (and presumably Ramon) seem so desperate to turn this non-story into a "hate crime" when it clearly is not.

We seem to be living in febrile times, with an unhealthy obsession with skin colour. Fake news stories such as this, spread by those with a dangerous agenda and disseminated by an increasingly irresponsible press merely add to the air of toxicity.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/24/nascar-videos-show-multiple-nooses-before-bubba-wallace-incident/

View attachment 27561
So you've no idea what the noose means - me neither until I fucking took a look. If you have no contact with black people then I'm guessing then you've no idea. Any idea of context? - Why people might be freaked out about it? I love people saying it was just "a noose" - amazing.

If you are racist - just admit you are racist.
 

Yithian

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We seem to be living in febrile times, with an unhealthy obsession with skin colour. Fake news stories such as this, spread by those with a dangerous agenda and disseminated by an increasingly irresponsible press merely add to the air of toxicity.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/24/nascar-videos-show-multiple-nooses-before-bubba-wallace-incident/
You've expressed this opinion multiple times now.

Perhaps a focus on the precise facts of the case would be more helpful.

Edit: this discussion is--quite predictably--deteriorating in quality. It won't continue if that trend is not rectified.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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So you've no idea what the noose means - me neither until I fucking took a look. If you have no contact with black people then I'm guessing then you've no idea. Any idea of context? - Why people might be freaked out about it? I love people saying it was just "a noose" - amazing.

If you are racist - just admit you are racist.
I insist on being colour-blind.

Why are you so obsessed with skin-colour?
 
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blessmycottonsocks

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You've expressed this opinion multiple times now.

Perhaps a focus on the precise facts of the case would be more helpful.

Edit: this discussion is--quite predictably--deteriorating in quality. It won't continue if that trend is not rectified.
Yith.

Have a look at the garagecam videos.
The use of cord loops as door-pulls clearly predates Wallace's participation in NASCAR. The motives behind such things I cannot say for certain, but may well be another affectation in keeping with the whole macho, daredevil atmosphere of NASCAR (possibly like lurid paint jobs or skull gear-shifts).

I find all this pouring of fuel on the flames irresponsible in the extreme.
 

Krepostnoi

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I insist on being colour-blind.

Why are you so obsessed with skin-colour?
Have you paid any attention at all to what people of colour have been saying about being colour-blind?

As I understand it - and I don't claim to have all the answers, although I am trying to listen and learn - one of the big problems with white people refusing to see race/skin colour is that it dismisses the lived experience of being a person of colour. It assumes a structural equality which, while lovely in theory, does not exist in reality. It effectively negates the possibility of examining structural racism and privilege. These things, among others, have tangible impacts, up to and including the difference between life and death (see e.g. the comparative mortality rates from Covid-19 among different ethnicities). Somewhat down the list of importance, but - note - not at the bottom, It means being able to say straight-facedly "it's just a noose".
 

Spookdaddy

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That cord loop was photographed in 2019 - before that particular garage was even allocated to Wallace.

Also, NASCAR garagecam videos from 2017 (click on the link in the NY Times article below) show multiple similar cord loops used as door pulls...
It's actually the New York Post, who also in a linked article show a photograph of the actual thing that all the fuss is about:

Noose.jpg


That's a noose knot - no ifs, no buts, no argument.

As has already been stated by myself and Frasier Buddolph (sorry Frasier, I basically repeated what you said - but in a far more long winded way) this is a very, very specific thing.

Outwith the details of the original story, you are still conflating the generic with the specific. The historical symbolism involved may be somewhat particular to the region, but the continued insistence that an actual noose knot is just like any other rope loop is a bit like insisting that a swastika is just like any other geometrical symbol. (I generally try to avoid situations where Godwin's Law might be applied - in this case, I think the comparison is fair enough.)

This is Alabama - that's a noose; I can just about entertain the idea that some dick with a bit too much time on his hands did it without really thinking, but I can also see why it's a big problem for some. And to be honest, if it was tied deliberately - with full knowledge of the symbolism involved - it doesn't really matter whether Wallace was the intended target of that symbolism or not.

Not the first time that The Guardian has spouted fake news...

A bit unfair, in this case - they basically seem to be reporting a story NASCAR broke themselves.
 
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blessmycottonsocks

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Have you paid any attention at all to what people of colour have been saying about being colour-blind?

As I understand it - and I don't claim to have all the answers, although I am trying to listen and learn - one of the big problems with white people refusing to see race/skin colour is that it dismisses the lived experience of being a person of colour. It assumes a structural equality which, while lovely in theory, does not exist in reality. It effectively negates the possibility of examining structural racism and privilege. These things, among others, have tangible impacts, up to and including the difference between life and death (see e.g. the comparative mortality rates from Covid-19 among different ethnicities). Somewhat down the list of importance, but - note - not at the bottom, It means being able to say straight-facedly "it's just a noose".
I don't claim to have the answers either, Krepostnoi.
I do believe though, that rather than focus on a troubled history, looking to go forward into a future where people of whatever ethnicity are treated absolutely equally, has to be the best policy.

It may take several more generations, but I suspect our descendants will look back at today's obsession with skin colour with bemusement.
 

Spookdaddy

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History is part of society's vocabulary - you do not have to let it be your whole dictionary, but you cannot have a conversation without it.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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It's actually the New York Post, who in a linked article show a photograph of the actual thing that all the fuss is about:

View attachment 27562

That's a noose knot - no ifs, no buts, no argument.

As has already been stated by myself and Frasier Biddolph (sorry Frasier, I basically repeated what you said - but in a far more long winded way) this is a very, very specific thing.

Outwith the details of the original story, you are still conflating the generic with the specific. The historical symbolism involved may be somewhat particular to the region, but the continued insistence that an actual noose knot is just like any other rope loop is a bit like insisting that a swastika is just like any other geometrical symbol. (I generally try to avoid situations where Godwin's Law might be applied - in this case, I think the comparison is fair enough.)

This is Alabama - that's a noose; I can just about entertain the idea that some dick with a bit too much time on his hands did it without really thinking, but I can also see why it's a big problem for some. And to be honest, if it was tied deliberately - with full knowledge of the symbolism involved - it doesn't really matter whether Wallace was the intended target of the symbolism or not.




A bit unfair, in this case - they basically seem to be reporting a story NASCAR broke themselves.
Or, as Yith posted in the Political Correctness thread:

IMG_1040.JPG
 

Krepostnoi

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I do believe though, that rather than focus on a troubled history, looking to go forward into a future where people of whatever ethnicity are treated absolutely equally, has to be the best policy.
But how do you get there from here? Like SD says, the course of events that led us to where we are is a vital part of the conversation.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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Really, though? From everything that Spookdaddy said, that's what needs addressing first?
Well no. That was humorous exaggeration, as I had a sudden flashback to Yith's post. For some subjects close to my heart: ecology, vegetarianism, science, the arts and sport, The Guardian is still my go-to read. It clearly does like to promote a racially-motivated agenda at times though. In trumpeting this piece of fake news, The Guardian obviously wanted readers to believe that some malicious person had discovered which NASCAR garage would be allocated to Wallace (they are allocated randomly) and then hung a noose in it to intimidate and/or insult him.
That was clearly bullshit, as the evidence shows that noose door-pulls have been present in many NASCAR garages for several years and even predate Wallace starting in the sport.
The Guardian got its lurid headline and now that the facts have emerged, just may (as has happened several times before) post a tiny erratum, noting the true facts behind this non-story in a minuscule font buried deep in the journal somewhere.
As I said above, these are febrile times and deliberately raising the temperature through inaccurate stories strikes me as a highly irresponsible thing to do.
Similarly, I can fully understand the prohibition on political threads in this forum. Perhaps it is equally unwise to permit threads focusing on skin colour?
 

McAvennie

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It may take several more generations, but I suspect our descendants will look back at today's obsession with skin colour with bemusement.
I was thinking about this earlier, following I think an article that claimed that celebrity chefs should not even be allowed to promote recipes outside of those directly related to their native culture, and wondered how Gen Alpha will view their peers. Might take until Gen Beta, but in the spirit of rebellion against your elders I wonder if we will see in a decade a so a rejection of the 'offended by' culture and the Gen Z proponents mocked for their offence at everything. Or alternatively if the current mood is top of the slope and either the next generation will grow up not doing/saying/thinking things that offend or will continue the 'call out' culture to an ever more extreme level.

Either way Social Studies courses in a decade or two are going to have some great case studies to mull over.
 

Spookdaddy

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Seems to me that there are two things at play here - interconnected, but not interdependent.

One is the underlying issue. The other is the vast cluster of individual stupidities that cling to the hulk of the former like barnacles.

Examples of the latter may well be laughed off by future generations - but it just doesn't follow that they will therefore ever undervalue the monumental nature of the underlying problem.

History doesn't just work one way. I note a correlation between those who appear to believe that people should just pull their socks up and move on - when they view the history involved as somehow not their own - but get all hot under the collar when the history they do feel some connection with is in any way attacked. And this happens very often within the same sentence - quite literally. Before anyone presumes to suggest that others should just shut up and move on, they really need to make sure that their own house is in some sort of order.
 

Yithian

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It may take several more generations, but I suspect our descendants will look back at today's obsession with skin colour with bemusement.
If you are racist - just admit you are racist.
I insist on being colour-blind.

Why are you so obsessed with skin-colour?
I wonder if we will see in a decade a so a rejection of the 'offended by' culture and the Gen Z proponents mocked for their offence at everything.
Etc.

This is a conspiracy thread.

Mystery solved. Topic lost. Reports received. Barbs exchanged. Thread locked.

What's next?

Can we do the gays again?

The Muslims haven't had a virtual outing for a good while...

THIS IS A FORUM FOR THE DISCUSSION OF FORTEAN INVESTIGATION & STRANGE PHENOMENA.
 
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