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Britain: Police State?

lupinwick said:
Didn't Arthur C Clarke in 1 of his novels have the government selected from the pool of people qualified to do the job? It was a fixed term thing and selection for positions were staggered so there was never a gap between new folks stepping in.

Or was I dreaming it? Hmmm.
I think I recall a short story called "Election Day" or something similar, where just one "voter" was selected at random, asked a lot of questions by official pollsters, and then the results were extrapolated to choose the government. IIRC, it was in an Isaac Asimov collection.
 
barfing_pumpkin said:
I take your point, Jerry_B - that's it's all really down to political short-termism. But even so - it does appear as if the foundations of totalitarianism are being slowly put into place. Now, I'm not (yet) cynical enough to believe that Tony Blair has a genuine disdain for the democratic process...but it may be that one day we'll have someone at number ten who thinks differently, and who also has the instruments of repression ready and waiting.

But that means that all parties in the UK are aiming to make sure that a totalitarian state is the aim in some point in the future. After all, TB won't be in power for ever, let alone the Labour party, and I very much doubt that they're somehow co-operating with all of the other parties behind the scenes. I really can't see them all getting to gether planning ahead that so that, whoever is in charge at some point in the future, they all make sure that a totalitarian state is in place. All of this suggests that they all have one common consensus, which seems very unlikely.
 
He does not like to have public enquiries tho does he ?

Britain: Blair government refuses public inquiry into biggest fire in Europe
By Marcus Morgan and Paul Mitchell
9 January 2006
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The Blair government has rejected calls for a public inquiry into what Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott admitted was “the biggest fire in Europe” since World War Two.

On December 11, 2005 a huge explosion ripped through the Buncefield oil storage depot at Hemel Hempstead in Hertfordshire, northwest of London, decimating the depot and surrounding houses and offices. The depot stores 16 million litres of petrol, diesel, kerosene and aviation fuel. It took 650 firefighters four days to bring the raging inferno, burning in 20 different storage tanks, under control. (See: Buncefield Oil Depot ‘Big Fire’ Page)

The blast was heard over 100 miles away and produced a huge plume of thick smoke that drifted over the capital in a matter of hours and spread across the entire southeast of England. By chance, the weather conditions meant the thick cloud stayed thousands of metres in the air and did not drift down to the ground affecting people’s health.

Also by chance the blast occurred early on a Sunday morning, so that only two people were seriously hurt and 40 people were injured. Considering that a large part of the depot and nearby buildings were completely demolished by the blasts, authorities described it as a miracle that there were no fatalities. If the incident had occurred during the week casualties could easily have numbered in the hundreds.

Up to 20,000 workers are employed on the Maylands Avenue Estate which lies alongside the depot. It is eastern England’s largest business park and has become a centre for companies involved in the IT and retail distribution trade. Offices belonging to over 30 of the 400 companies were entirely destroyed and many of the others suffered damage calculated at £50 million, according to David Way, director at the London-based insurance brokers Alexander Forbes. Way also estimates up to £100 million worth of damage at the oil depot itself and that £20 million worth of fuel went up in flames. The blast also damaged houses, some of which lie on the Woodhall Farm housing estate half a mile from the depot and are built on the site of the former Brock’s fireworks factory in the 1970s. Some 2,000 people were evacuated from their homes following the explosion.

The BBC reported that up to 5,000 people were unemployed for Christmas as a direct result of the explosion. The long-term consequences could be far greater. A number of businesses, including Fujifilm, have threatened not to re-open unless something is done about the oil depot.

One worker explained, “My wife is a full-time self-employed admin worker for one of the big companies on Maylands Avenue. She has no other clients and has not worked since the Buncefield explosion. It appears that she will be paid up to the event, but after this she is on her own. Her employers have not indicated if and when she will be working again, but have clearly said that they would not pay her in the interim period between the incident and the restart of work.”

Residents living near the oil depot sent a petition to Home Secretary Charles Clarke on January 3 calling for a full public inquiry into the explosion and fire. Their solicitor, Des Collins, said: “No one seems to understand that this community has been destroyed.... We feel that the Home Office is the only possible government department that will look at the issues and order a public inquiry.”

Rachael Lampey, a local resident, said, “Perhaps a company or individual should be held responsible to ensure it doesn’t happen again. If the site is to stay there—how safe is the area for residents and businesses?”

So far there has been no indication that the disaster will be subject to a public enquiry. Instead, the chairman of the government’s Health and Safety Commission, Bill Callaghan, said an internal inquiry would be held by the Environment Agency (EA) and the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) and a report published. He promised it “would be the most wide-ranging health and safety inquiry since the investigation into the Potters Bar rail crash in 2002.”

The comparison with Potters Bar gives some indication of the direction the enquiry will take. A few days before Callaghan’s statement, the government ruled out a public inquiry into the rail crash at Potters Bar, which claimed seven lives. Last October the Crown Prosecution Service ruled that no criminal charges would be brought against any individual or corporation for gross negligence manslaughter in relation to it.

Instead of a public inquiry into the Buncefield explosion, Callaghan has asked the “competent authorities”—i.e., the EA and HSE—“to examine their own role in regulating the activities at Buncefield under COMAH (Control of Major Accident Hazards) regulations.” The COMAH regulations were introduced after the Flixborough chemical explosion in northern England in 1974 that killed 28 workers and destroyed or damaged 1,800 buildings near the site.

The remit of the joint HSE/EA investigation is “to share any immediate lessons with the wider industry and ... publish a report on the incident, the investigation and implications for the control and mitigation of on and off-site risks.” It is unlikely to enquire how local planners (along with the HSE and EA) allowed housing and workplaces to be built so close to the oil depot in the first place and will not question the commercial decisions that led to the depot’s expansion and drove the building spree in the area around it.

The depot is operated by Total UK, a subsidiary of the French oil giant Total, in a joint venture with Texaco, but is also used by BP and Shell. It is the fifth largest in the UK, loading approximately 400 road tankers a day and connected by pipelines to nearby Heathrow and Luton airports. The depot is said to supply a third of the fuel for Heathrow and has led to shortages at the airport with long-haul flights being forced to make extra refuelling stops.

Total were also owners of the AZF chemical plant in Toulouse, France that exploded on September 21, 2001, killing 30 people and leaving 2,500 with serious injuries. Frederic Arrou, chairman of the Association of Victims of September 21, told the Times that at Buncefield “an explosion of this importance obviously makes me think of what happened in Toulouse.” He added, “The fact is that ordinary people are kept in the dark and never told about the risks of living near a place like this. In France, at least, we are treated like children.”

The cause of the Toulouse blast has never been properly established, but Total has claimed that an electrical spark may have been the reason.

The immediate cause of the Buncefield fire remains uncertain, but the “electrical spark” theory has also surfaced with the media blaming a tanker truck driver for turning on a switch nearby and igniting escaping vapour. However, if there was a large enough leak to reach the truck, it probably would have reached another ignition source sooner or later because fuel vapour is heavier than air and stays on the ground.

Drivers refuelling on site say that a storage tank was leaking just prior to the blast. According to one driver employed by Total at Buncefield, “I saw smoke and vapours escaping from the storage tank another driver was about to load from. I have only worked here for six months so I didn’t know if it was dangerous, so I asked some Tesco drivers who were also waiting to load what they thought. They walked over to the office to report the circumstances and suddenly the tank exploded.”

Hertfordshire Fire Service’s deputy chief Mark Yates stated that escaping petroleum vapour was the most likely cause of the original explosion and fire. Local residents also reported a strong smell of fuel near the entrance on several occasions and claimed to see foam running onto the road near the depot and into nearby fields, suggesting some cleaning-up exercises may have taken place.

There are reports that the two seriously injured workers were part of a maintenance crew working on a vapour recovery unit. This is significant as an important finding from the Flixborough inquiry was the lack of supervision of maintenance workers. Despite this, safety experts told the BBC that a “weekend effect” in industry still exists involving unsafe maintenance work on Saturdays and Sundays. An additional question is: if there was a fuel leak did the detection system pick it up?

Total denies there were any leaks in the run-up to the explosions. According to the government, the site was also subject to an audit just three months previously by the HSE. Justin McCracken, deputy chief executive of the organization, said that “the last inspection was specifically focusing on issues of preparation for dealing with fire” and “nothing came out which caused us undue concern.”

Buncefield was built in 1968 primarily to provide aviation fuel for Heathrow airport and was situated on the outskirts of Hemel Hempstead, a new town that was largely completed by then. However, the depot has since expanded into a major distribution by the addition of pipelines bringing fuel in from the Humber and Merseyside and taking it to Luton and Gatwick airports, which have mushroomed in size in the last three decades. Over the same period, as the price of land has rocketed, particularly in the southeast of England, the commercial zones of the town have expanded and developers have squeezed in housing estates dangerously close to the storage tanks, loaded with highly flammable fuel.

According to one resident who spoke to the press, the local Dacorum Council’s “greed and corruption” are “to blame for allowing development right up to the edge of the site.” He claims the council were involved in a “debacle” with a local property developer in the 1980s who had “to pay out £550,000 ten years later to underpin, plate the floors and actually put some bolts to hold the floor to ceiling windows” in houses on the Woodhall Farm estate facing Buncefield.

The HSE seeks to justify the close proximity of housing and workplaces to the oil depot, stating, “The UK is a small, densely populated island and such undeveloped areas as do exist are often so remote or of such environmental value as to be unsuitable for industrial use. It also remains the case that, to be economically viable, industries need to be sited where they are accessible to main transport routes and to sources of labour.” It asserts, “A balance has to be struck between the needs of industry, the needs of the community and the interests of safety.”

An unnamed environmental protection expert told the Independent on Sunday that “there were serious flaws in the design of Buncefield that contributed to the intensity of the disaster.” He claimed that the site was too crowded with fuel tanks grouped three or four to a bund (a retaining wall intended to prevent the spread of spillages), whereas in most of Europe sites rarely have more than two tanks to a bund.

Sources in the EA have told the World Socialist Web Site that the bunds were designed to prevent oil spills, but were never properly tested to cope with an explosion that might involve the use of millions of gallons of firewater that could spill over the bunds and flood the site.

Jeff Charlton, a disaster consultant of Disaster Advice Limited, told the media that the bunds were designed to hold the oil tank contents and a firewater lagoon located at the depot can hold 1.4 million litres of water—sufficient to soak all the tanks for a period of 40 minutes. However, the fire lasted for four days and Charlton points out that the firefighters used 15 million litres of water and 250,000 litres of foaming agent, flooding the reservoir and contaminating the site. “As the priority was to extinguish the fire, any consequence may have been felt to be acceptable,” he added.

The resulting pollution could threaten river and groundwater supplies and contaminate the soil. On December 12, the EA said that the fire-waters, combined with oil and petrol, could have a severe impact on surface and ground water quality and aquatic life and that it was working with the fire service “to ensure measures are taken to avoid this situation—with runoff being collected in bunds around the site and pumped to on site storage areas.”

An EA press officer has told the World Socialist Web Site that in fact 24 million litres of fuel, firewater and foam were produced. It has been transported off site and the majority is still being held in tanks at Maple Lodge wastewater treatment works, pending a decision on its future disposal.

There are serious problems associated with the disposal of the fire water and foam, especially in such large quantities, because the foam can knock out the treatment processes and cause the foam and raw sewage to be discharged into the river. Downstream of the Maple Lodge treatment works lay abstraction points that draw water from the River Thames to supply London with its drinking water.

Although scientists have developed better foam concentrates over the years to reduce their environmental impact, they still contain surfactants (the active ingredient in most detergents), solvents such as glycols used in antifreeze and various additives (metals, dyes and preservatives) to improve their effectiveness in extinguishing flames. One key ingredient, a surfactant called PFOS, is now known to be toxic to aquatic life and builds up in the blood of animals and humans. Although the production of PFOS was recently stopped, there are still stocks of the old materials around. Many of the modern foam concentrates have new formulations, but their toxicity and persistency in the environment are unknown and still being investigated.

The Fire Brigades Union (FBU) has accused Hertfordshire Fire Brigade of not having enough foam to deal with the fire. It said, “The brigade has no policy or planning for dealing with any major incident requiring foam. It has no specialist foam vehicles and no large stocks of foam. There are no officers with specialist training to deal with a major oil fire.”

FBU General Secretary Matt Wrack also pointed out that two local fire stations are threatened with closure, and commented, “Many other brigades are facing threats of significant cuts and station closures. Hertfordshire county council cannot cut their fire service on the basis there will always be others who can help.”

The Hertfordshire planning authorities and Fire Brigade have borne the brunt of the criticism for the fire disaster and the oil companies seem to have escaped unscathed. However, it is the depot owners and management who are ultimately responsible for the safety of the site and prevention of accidents. Despite the size and importance of the site there does not appear to have been sufficient functional firefighting equipment at Buncefield or trained firefighting crews provided by the oil company.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jan20 ... -j09.shtml

will we ever know what started the fire ?
will we ever know the truth about 7/7 ?
does anyone really believe Dr Kelly commited suicide ?

spot the public enquiry in our police state
 
I too would like to see a Public Enquiry into 7/7 but I'm not entirely sure why the lack of one for the Buncefield fire is yet another indicator that we live in a police state. The cost of PE's can be absolutely astronomical and it's the job of whoever says yay or nay to decide whether the setting up of one justifies the expense, not to mention the time involved, and whether there is any possibility that it can answer questions not likely to be answered by all the other investigations made by various bodies after a major incident - I assume in this case they consider that the HSE and Fire Brigade's own investigations might be sufficient. If a Public Enquiry was mounted at huge expense and all it did was duplicate these investigations then everybody would be up in arms about the waste of money involved.
 
Spookdaddy said:
. If a Public Enquiry was mounted at huge expense and all it did was duplicate these investigations then everybody would be up in arms about the waste of money involved.

And certain people would conclude that the similar results clearly showed that a cover up has taken place. :roll:
 
Public enquiries?

Don't confuse me with the facts, I've already made my mind up! :D
 
techybloke666 said:
will we ever know what started the fire ?
will we ever know the truth about 7/7 ?
does anyone really believe Dr Kelly commited suicide ?

spot the public enquiry in our police state

This is hardly evidence of a police state :roll: If we actually lived in a police state, we wouldn't be here having this discussion, for a start. So let's not go overboard with melodramatic statements, hm?

(And you seem to have forgotten again about cutting and pasting huge chunks of text).
 
Jerry Wrote
This is hardly evidence of a police state If we actually lived in a police state, we wouldn't be here having this discussion, for a start. So let's not go overboard with melodramatic statements, hm?

(And you seem to have forgotten again about cutting and pasting huge chunks of text).

Nope havent forgotten at all Jerry
Like I said EMPS pastes large pieces so if a moderator can I can too, If you,ve got a problem with it in general moan at the Mods not me :x

And your view of a budding police state and mine are different, it odes not make you right and me wrong.

In fact just becouse your views differ from mine does not give you free will to use rolling eye icons in every reply post to my posts.

opinions differ !

I,m not the only person bleating about the upcomming police state anyway.
Like I keep saying lots of folk are cowing on about it.

Its a slow march to less civil rights, less human rights , and big brother monitoring us via a vast technology creep.
 
techybloke666 said:
Its a slow march to less civil rights, less human rights , and big brother monitoring us via a vast technology creep.

So who is this Big Brother supposed to be in your opinion?
 
So who is this Big Brother supposed to be in your opinion?

ah good question !

Its not a single person thats for sure.

As to which elements of our government I would hazard a guess at MI6 being an interested party, also the MOD, THe top brass of the police I would imagine are keen to progress the monitoring too.
TBlair seems very keen, as do BUSH and co, and the Auatralian prime minister too.
As to if some one is pulling strings DUNNO.

It could all be being driven for money and not particulary Human rights abuse, but the effect of the creep will effect Human rights.

Certainly the New Satelitte system the EU are placing in orbit will enable massive income at a later date.
 
But that means that all parties in the UK are aiming to make sure that a totalitarian state is the aim in some point in the future...

Well, my issue isn't so much that the groundwork for totalitarianism is being laid by a genuine consenus - it seems more a side-effect of all this political short-termism that's going on. It appears to me, more than anything, that the main political parties in this country are being complacent in ensuring that a totalitarian state doesn't happen.
 
techybloke666 said:
I,m not the only person bleating about the upcomming police state anyway.
Like I keep saying lots of folk are cowing on about it.

Its a slow march to less civil rights, less human rights , and big brother monitoring us via a vast technology creep.

Alot of people are cowing about various other things - aliens landing, for example. That doesn't mean it's going to happen. After all, alot of people can shre the same mistaken outlook - force of numbers doesn't always = being right/correct.

Aside from that, you stated that we already were in a police state, which is hardly the case.
 
barfing_pumpkin said:
Well, my issue isn't so much that the groundwork for totalitarianism is being laid by a genuine consenus - it seems more a side-effect of all this political short-termism that's going on. It appears to me, more than anything, that the main political parties in this country are being complacent in ensuring that a totalitarian state doesn't happen.

How can you create a totalitarian state from short-termism? Short-termism, by it's very definition, is incapable of setting up anything as involved as a totalitarian state.
 
techybloke666 said:
As to which elements of our government I would hazard a guess at MI6 being an interested party, also the MOD, THe top brass of the police I would imagine are keen to progress the monitoring too.
TBlair seems very keen, as do BUSH and co, and the Auatralian prime minister too.
As to if some one is pulling strings DUNNO.

But, as has been explained to you before, totalitarianism is an anethema to capitalism - so somehow we have to believe that these nefarious forces, especially the capitalist elements, are all conspiring to destroy the very system on which their power is based...
 
techybloke666 said:
As to which elements of our government I would hazard a guess at MI6 being an interested party, .

Sorry to be a pedant but I assume you mean MI5 as 6 are more concerned with threats/intelligence to the country from external sources, whereas 5 deal with internal threats from within the country.
 
blackhand2010 said:
I think one of the problems, in this country in particular, is that the general public find it all too easy to let the govt tell them what to do. It saves them from having to be responsible for anything, themselves included. It doesn't help that any form of internal rebellion, whether that be strikes, or riots, seems to have been washed out of the nations psyche by waves of apathy.

I think a huge contributing factor to apathy and this notion of not taking responsibility for oneself is tv. Got a problem with your mum? Let Trisha sort it out for you. Had 17 kids and can't get them to eat their veg? Supernanny will get it down em. There's this constant reinforcement of the idea that we are not capable of handling our own affairs and that problems can only be solved by deferring to someone else. Attempting to tackle your own problems is presented as being simply too much effort, so why would people feel compelled to tackle the government on its crappy legislation.
 
Is that just taking a few TV problems far too seriously and expounding too much from that also? I don't think you can safely use them as a realistic template for society in the UK in general. After all, such shows are made specifically to focus on somewhat unusual situations - if they were to focus more run-of-the-mill situations, people wouldn't watch it ;)
 
techybloke666 said:
Certainly the New Satelitte system the EU are placing in orbit will enable massive income at a later date.

This is a new GPS system. What has that to do with creating a police state?

But this does open up another suspect in the role of Big Brother - The EU - Popular with the American NWO school of conspiricy theory its an organisation we see very little of on FTMB, certainly when compared to the usual suspects Bush/Blair, MI5/6 and BIG OIL

Hmmm.
 
I think the 'idea' is that the EU GPS system, like the US one, will be used at some point to track individuals, in a 'big brother' sense. For more of such 'ideas', see this thread...
 
BRIT BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU
IS UK SATELLITE A LIFE-SAVER OR SPY IN SPACE?
By Damien Fletcher
WHEN the Giove A satellite was blasted into orbit in the early hours of yesterday, it was a triumph for British boffins.

Coming two years after the failure of the Beagle 2 Mars probe, it put this country back at the forefront of the European space effort.

The satellite will form part of the £2.4billion Galileo navigation system - which means we'll no longer have to rely on the Global Positioning System run by the US military.

But Giove A - built in Surrey - is more than just a scientific triumph.

The project's backers say it could change our lives, with low-cost Galileo chips built into everyday devices. For instance, emergency services would be able to instantly pinpoint the location of a mobile phone after a 999 call.

But critics believe it will also allow the government to spy on us, Big Brother-style, and lead to Europe-wide road charging.

Any device with a Galileo chip can be tracked to within 1 metre.

what type of chips have been put into mobile phones made by Nokia for months ?
 
techybloke666 said:
Any device with a Galileo chip can be tracked to within 1 metre.

what type of chips have been put into mobile phones made by Nokia for months ?

But we're coming back to the argument we thrashed to death on the RFID thread, yes this is a technology with a potential for abuse within it, but there has to be a reason and a gain from that abuse. On the upside being able to find a mobile phone making a 999 call within a metre is a very positive use of the technology.
 
you don't call tracking every single car even on b roads and chargin by the mile Big brother ?

think about it

a record of every single car journey for starters.

and thats just the transponders in the cars.

then you have mobile/cell phone tracking.

I know

people don't drive
people dont have to have there phones with them.

your living on cloud cookoo land if you think these billion dollar projects are for our benefit.

There all aimed at control and making money from us.

Do you think they are bothered about if you can find a hotel ;)

Thats the sell they want you to buy.

Its all about security
Its all about Taxing
Its all about Money and Control
 
techybloke666 said:
you don't call tracking every single car even on b roads and chargin by the mile Big brother ?

think about it

a record of every single car journey for starters.

and thats just the transponders in the cars.

then you have mobile/cell phone tracking.

I know

people don't drive
people dont have to have there phones with them.

your living on cloud cookoo land if you think these billion dollar projects are for our benefit.

There all aimed at control and making money from us.

Do you think they are bothered about if you can find a hotel ;)

Thats the sell they want you to buy.

Its all about security
Its all about Taxing
Its all about Money and Control

Oh boy here we go again :roll:
 
Oh please yourself Heckler

Don't forget I work in IT security , I go to seminars strictly all about this type of monitoring.

If you think I,m nuts thats fair enough.

But you will see how all this turns out in time.

if we all live long enough to see the finished article.
 
Seeing as here in the UK all of this much lauded technology still hasn't even fixed the Child Benefit cock-ups, I seriously doubt that we have anything to fear from the state bringing anything more nefarious on-line ;) Anything more exotic would probably take even longer to set up, and by then would probably also be obsolete.

As for statements like: Its all about security Its all about Taxing Its all about Money and Control - you haven't qualified why this is at all necessary. As has been explained, a true police state would mean an end to capitalism in this country - are you suggesting that the big plan behind all of this is to that end? And does that mean that all of the major political parties in the UK have bought into this plan, seeing as this is where our society is allegedly being steered?
 
Jerry_B said:
Seeing as here in the UK all of this much lauded technology still hasn't even fixed the Child Benefit cock-ups, I seriously doubt that we have anything to fear from the state bringing anything more nefarious on-line ;)
Good point! I assume you're referring to the CSA, which costs more to run than it recovers from absent parents -
story and other links here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4625228.stm



Still, look on the bright side - just think of all those new jobs the CSA has created! Must have kept hundreds of Civil Servants off the dole! :D

(I'm looking for a job as a spin doctor - any offers? 8) )
 
sonofajoiner said:
I think a huge contributing factor to apathy and this notion of not taking responsibility for oneself is tv.
I can see where you are coming from, though to me, this is more of a sympton than a cause.
IMHO T.V is currently just reflecting what is going on in the country, which, seemingly, is very little. I would say that the reason that we are at the place we are is down to a serious breakdown in society, which has allowed govts/business to take an ever more controlling role. Now I realise that sounds pretty melodramatic, however, Thatcher used to say there is no such thing as society, and I think her perveted dream is now a reality.
I won't rant too much about it on this thread, as it isn't directly related, however I would say that the apathy which allows the govt to become overseers, has been caused by an almost complete destruction of the traditional working class, the people who would, in the past have rebelled against the "nannying".
I'll get down off my soapbox, now...
 
The idea isn't that the police control the state on their own behalf. That would be both rather obvious and a lot of hard work for them. ;)

If you see them as capitalist lackeys (think 'Thatcher's poodles' of nearly a generation ago) who serve the vested interests of globalised business, you're a little closer.
 
blackhand2010 said:
IMHO T.V is currently just reflecting what is going on in the country, which, seemingly, is very little. I would say that the reason that we are at the place we are is down to a serious breakdown in society, which has allowed govts/business to take an ever more controlling role.

Isn't that really just taking poor TV schedules content too seriously? IMHO that hardly points to a breakdown in society.
 
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