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Britain: Police State?

Quake42 said:
...

Horrible though it is, it's hardly new is it? ...

I don't agree with what Israel is doing in Lebanon, but it's hardly unique.
What is new is that it appears to have become included as part of 'The War Against Terror'.

This is also different from the investment in safer rail infrastructure. The destruction of large parts of Lebanese infrastructure, particuliarily the setting up of the present 'free fire zone' in the South, appears to be part of the Israelis concept of 'Defensible Boundaries'.
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
There may be reasons why the Government sets up Departments and systems which train the Public to expect less. Look at the National Curriculum and OFSTED. This may be a process which has been planned and carried out over many years.

Oh, so govts of recent years have some colluded and planned to be inept just so that they can have more nefarious controls over us? Doesn't that strike you as being a somewhat paranoid appraisal of the situation? It seems to me that the fact that they seem unable to set up anything., let alone anything long-term, points to their lack of any ideas of a police state. Frankly, I don't give the current govt. any credit for being able to orgainse anything so involved.
 
Jerry_B said:
...

Oh, so govts of recent years have some colluded and planned to be inept just so that they can have more nefarious controls over us? Doesn't that strike you as being a somewhat paranoid appraisal of the situation? It seems to me that the fact that they seem unable to set up anything., let alone anything long-term, points to their lack of any ideas of a police state. Frankly, I don't give the current govt. any credit for being able to orgainse anything so involved.
I can only judge by results, Jerry. :(
 
Jerry_B said:
Frankly, I don't give the current govt. any credit for being able to orgainse anything so involved.
Or anything much at all.

Hospitals? Full of MRSA, and financial problems that lead to masive job losses and even closures of well-loved and efficient local hospitals...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/5173916.stm

Iraq?

Afghanistan?

Why are we there? What good do we do?

Why does Blair have a brown nose?

etc, etc..... :evil:
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
I can only judge by results, Jerry. :(

A series of screw-ups covered by spin? You should worry more about your taxes being wasted on various dead-end schemes, not about anything as abstract a police state. The former is a constant, the latter is a paranoid fantasy. They can't even make the bloody trains run on time ;)
 
Jerry_B said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
I can only judge by results, Jerry. :(

A series of screw-ups covered by spin? You should worry more about your taxes being wasted on various dead-end schemes, not about anything as abstract a police state. the former is a constant, the latter is a paranoid fantasy. They can't even make the bloody trains run on time ;)
The point is to keep control, not to make everything run better.

How many CCTV cameras, ID cards, biometric profiles and federalized police agencies does that take?
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Quake42 said:
...

Horrible though it is, it's hardly new is it? ...

I don't agree with what Israel is doing in Lebanon, but it's hardly unique.
What is new is that it appears to have become included as part of 'The War Against Terror'.

well that would rather suggest that the war could not have been conducted without the backing, or at least the docility, of a british public drip-fed pro-israeli propaganda. alternatively it might suggest that the media and/or governmental spin on the story would influence people in their views. the results of this poll, conducted even before qana, would appear to suggest otherwise.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphic ... d27big.gif

this one - http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 35,00.html - was conducted before the recent events in lebanon got underway. according to this britons are actually less likely to be supportive of israel than their european counterparts (even those surveyed in countries with governments critical of the war on terror) and, unlike our european counterparts, more likely to support palestine than israel.
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Jerry_B said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
I can only judge by results, Jerry. :(

A series of screw-ups covered by spin? You should worry more about your taxes being wasted on various dead-end schemes, not about anything as abstract a police state. the former is a constant, the latter is a paranoid fantasy. They can't even make the bloody trains run on time ;)
The point is to keep control, not to make everything run better.

How many CCTV cameras, ID cards, biometric profiles and federalized police agencies does that take?

I think a lot of the policies are reactionary in nature. Rather than tackling the root causes of the problems (crime etc.) the thinking is still to cure the symptoms only. I don't think the government is actively seeking control of our lives, rather its getting control as a result of poor policies.

The answer? No idea, some kind of long term set of policies to solve poverty, homelessness, lack of decent jobs, poor education and whatever other woes exist in our societ would be beneficial. Unlikely because this would be very expensive, a CCTV system is cheap.
 
Are the Israeli's labeling this conflict as "war on terror" ?
I havent come across them saying that.

It a nice easy way for our Government and Bush to sit on the sidelines and say

Its all part of the grand plan against terrorists.

in the meantime another million innocent civilians are in the line of fire.

who fired the first missile in this conflict ?

I do love the way you dismiss actual things that work already Jerry with a quick reference to the CSA and the techinical problems they had.

heres a break down of all the "police state activity" that works just fine by the way.



TONY Blair has put the entire population of the UK on trial, without telling us, has found us all extremely guilty and has placed us in permanent incarceration on a hi-tech prison island.
Although this doesn't seem to have been reported on the news, we reckon this must be what has happened. How else can you explain the great tide of freedom-stealing measures currently being imposed on us?

Let's begin with the chilling news that "Britain is to become the first country in the world where the movements of all vehicles on the roads are recorded" (Independent, December 22). Said the report: "Using a network of cameras that can automatically read every passing number plate, the plan is to build a huge database of vehicle movements so that the police and security services can analyse any journey a driver has made over several years. "The network will incorporate thousands of existing CCTV cameras which are being converted to read number plates automatically night and day to provide 24/7 coverage of all motorways and main roads, as well as towns, cities, ports and petrol-station forecourts."

Frank Whiteley of the Association of Chief Police Officers confirmed that it would not just be the Boys in Blue that would be using the technology, but also the likes of MI5: "The security services will use it for purposes that I frankly don't have access to," he admitted.

And it's not just cars. The Guardian reported on January 24: "The police are being given access to advanced travel details on more than 40 million passengers a year who travel on domestic flights and ferries within Britain."

So far it seems that the only way to avoid the prying eyes of the police state is to stay at home. But you're not even safe there. The Independent on Sunday revealed on January 1 (Happy New Year, folks!) that "John Prescott has told tax inspectors to use satellites to snoop on householders' attempts to improve their homes." It added: "Even minor improvements, invisible from the road, will be caught by 'spy in the sky' technology that uses a mix of aerial and satellite images taken over time to spot changes. The Government is planning to compile a database of every home in Britain, which will include details of how many bedrooms each house has and what kind of roof it has. Inspectors will look at whether garden sheds have been converted into offices or studios and whether kitchens or porches have been extended."

Now let's turn to communications where, reported The Guardian on January 12, a new EU directive "requires every telephone company and internet service provider (ISP) to save call records and internet logs up to two years", supposedly in order to "aid law enforcement". The information that will be stored includes details of numbers dialled, call duration and location, websites visited and header information on emails.

Then the Independent on Sunday reported on January 15 that Tony Blair was set to allow MI5 to bug MPs' phones. Hang on, aren't MI5 supposed to be "civil servants" working for MPs and Parliament? And if the politicians aren't safe from the police state, where does that leave the rest of us?

We haven't even mentioned ID cards yet. The Daily Telegraph revealed on January 8 that all those government promises about the cards being "voluntary" are a load of hogwash. The revelation, no surprise to cynics like us lot, came from a trawl through "an obscure Whitehall consultation paper", the report explained. The small print revealed that town hall officials will be asked to police the scheme by using the Electoral Register to identify homes and individuals without cards. "The register will be cross-checked against the proposed Identity Card Database. Those who fail to register for a card or to keep their details up to date when, for example, they change address, face fines of up to £2,500."

Then on January 28, the Daily Telegraph reported: "Anti-ID cards campaigners accused the Home Office yesterday of misleading parliament and the public over plans to include radio tracking devices in ID cards. "Only last month, Andy Burnham, the Home Office minister, said in a parliamentary written answer that there were 'no plans to use radio frequency identification (RFID) tags in ID cards'. However, a leaked letter from Mr Burnham indicates that the chips will use radio frequencies to allow "contactless" reading of the card by special scanners." Phil Booth, co-ordinator of the No2ID campaign, said this would allow anyone carrying the card to be tracked in the street or entering a building.

If all this makes you want to go up to London and tell Mr Blair what you think of his Big Brother state, watch out! Milan Rai, a Sussex peace campaigner, was on January 19 formally charged with organising a protest outside Downing Street. Never mind that this amounted to just him and one other person - quite a feat of "organisation"! And never mind that all they did was ring a handbell and read out the names of victims of the Iraq war. None of that is allowed any more, under the new Serious Organised Crime and Police Act which bans "unauthorised" free speech within a one-mile radius of Westminster. The maximum penalty for this heinous crime is a week short of a year in prison. (To support Milan go to www.j-n-v.org or write to Justice Not Vengeance, 29 Gensing Road, St Leonards on Sea, East Sussex TN38 0HE).


And it doesn’t end there. Did you know that more than five per cent of the UK population are now registered on the DNA database - just by being arrested, though not necessarily charged, let alone found guilty? This figure will now shoot up as the good old Serious Organised Crime and Police Act also means you can be arrested for any minor alleged offence, even something like dropping litter.

Did you also know that a fifth of the world's CCTV cameras are in the UK and the average person is caught on film 300 times a day? Or that the NHS is building a database of everyone's medical history to which, it is believed, MI5 will have access? Or that body scanners are being installed at mainline stations, which will probably include Brighton, using mobile phone technology to create a virtual image of people minus their clothing.

Things are not looking too good in the future. Victor Keegan wrote in The Guardian (January 5): "If you think surveillance in Britain has reached the limits of acceptability, then think again. Last week's successful launch of Europe's Galileo global satellite navigation system will take surveillance into a whole new era. When it is fully operational in 2010 it will be able to locate people, cars, mobile phones, planes, trains, goods in transit, front door keys and maybe even footballs, to within a metre of where they are."

With the "threat of terrorism" now being used as a cover-all excuse to strip away the last vestiges of English freedom, it is essential as many of us as possible stand up and make our opposition known.

We can't pretend we don't know what's happening. As Henry Porter wrote in The Observer on January 23: "Make no mistake – we are wiring up for the police state".
http://www.fredriley.org.uk/weblog/2006 ... te_23.html

Gradual removal of civil rights with changes to the laws
Many of them not covered in the "mainstream media"
24 hour 7 day a week observation and logging of our normal lives
freedom of speech curtailed
stop and search laws uprated to the degree that the police can take a sample of your DNA on a whim and retain it forever- are we guilty already?
detailed databases on each and every one of us
we are being treated like we are guilty even when we are innocent
A high tech prison with all the people of the uk safely watched and monitored.
Even under 12's being DNA screened and added to the database for crimes they commit when they have any sort of responsibilty to make their own decisions.
Virtual Chains around everyones foot and the guards don't even have to look at the screens its all logged and stored.

sure sounds like a machine driven police state to me.

They may not have the policemen nowadays but they are sure as hell making up for it with technology.
 
ted_bloody_maul said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Quake42 said:
...

Horrible though it is, it's hardly new is it? ...

I don't agree with what Israel is doing in Lebanon, but it's hardly unique.
What is new is that it appears to have become included as part of 'The War Against Terror'.

well that would rather suggest that the war could not have been conducted without the backing, or at least the docility, of a british public drip-fed pro-israeli propaganda. alternatively it might suggest that the media and/or governmental spin on the story would influence people in their views. the results of this poll, conducted even before qana, would appear to suggest otherwise.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphic ... d27big.gif

this one - http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 35,00.html - was conducted before the recent events in lebanon got underway. according to this britons are actually less likely to be supportive of israel than their european counterparts (even those surveyed in countries with governments critical of the war on terror) and, unlike our european counterparts, more likely to support palestine than israel.
What Brits, or Europeans think about the Israel/Palestine question hardly matters. It's what the US thinks and how much it's prepared to support Israel's position that counts. In the US, the Palestinians are somewhere out there with Osama Bin Laden and Sitting Bull, in what passes for 'The Public Conciousness.'

That Tony Blair seems to support Bush and the US position on Israel so whole heartedly and that, apparently, the British Cabinet and the Parliamentary Labour Party are totally unable to stop Blair dictating the direction of British foreign policy, is truly abysmal.
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
That Tony Blair seems to support Bush and the US position on Israel so whole heartedly and that, apparently, the British Cabinet and the Parliamentary Labour Party are totally unable to stop Blair dictating the direction of British foreign policy, is truly abysmal.

Well said. In this mornings Indy the head politics columnist reckons that bliar will resign before xmass hence the superb speechifying an lying he's been doing in the US, sort of an advert for his new career. Lets hope neither Brown or the bliarite rival wins the subsequent election presuming there isn't an emergency that precludes an election.
 
crunchy5 said:
... In this mornings Indy the head politics columnist reckons that bliar will resign before xmass hence the superb speechifying an lying he's been doing in the US, sort of an advert for his new career. Lets hope neither Brown or the bliarite rival wins the subsequent election presuming there isn't an emergency that precludes an election.
The lucrative Overseas Lecture circuit beckons. And, didn't John Major find himself on the Board of the The Carlyle Group?

Tony's rewards can only be greater... Good doggie! :roll:
 
Good Moloch, Major was made head of Europe for the Mob, he did nowt, bliars bum must be quivering when he thinks of the rewards his masters will give him for his sterling efforts. I reckon dubya must secretly hate him though for always showing him up in public, embarrassing the dubsta with his fine European word use and thinking on his feet in the Q an A sessions. It would be such a laugh if because of this hatred bliar gets nowt. Head of the mob in Chad. :lol: :lol: No I can't wish that on poor Chad. :roll:
 
The UK Police National DNA Database
GeneWatch UK is calling on people to 'Reclaim your DNA' from the police if they are on the DNA database but have not been charged or convicted of a serious offence. The call is backed by the civil liberties groups Liberty and Privacy International. A new investigation by GeneWatch and the Observer newspaper has revealed that stored DNA samples are being used for controversial genetic studies of the male Y-chromosome, without the consent of the people involved.

http://www.genewatch.org/


and this is the sort of thing that goes on in a police state
 
Just been on a domestic flight and was a little nonplussed to note that as you show your boarding pass to get to the xray/bag probe they take your picture.How police state is that? It'll be buses and trains next.....

It's true as techybloke says that we have been tried in absentia and found guilty. :furious:
 
Many buses and trains already have CCTV. Smile. :D
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
What Brits, or Europeans think about the Israel/Palestine question hardly matters. It's what the US thinks and how much it's prepared to support Israel's position that counts. In the US, the Palestinians are somewhere out there with Osama Bin Laden and Sitting Bull, in what passes for 'The Public Conciousness.'

That Tony Blair seems to support Bush and the US position on Israel so whole heartedly and that, apparently, the British Cabinet and the Parliamentary Labour Party are totally unable to stop Blair dictating the direction of British foreign policy, is truly abysmal.

so what you're saying is is that theories of britain becoming a police state, although apparently supported by events in south lebanon, and the dissemination of pro-israeli propaganda are of no consequence to the actions taken in lebanon. i'm still confused as to what this interjection has to do with the subject of the thread.
 
On R4 now, Talking Politics is about the national child database. However, this isn't the programme that's advertised on the BBC R4 site.

Conspiracy! ;)
 
Join Genewatch and help to get the Law changed on DNA storage.

http://www.genewatch.org/sub.shtml?als[cid]=539488


Points you might want to make in your letter
Remind the Chief Constables that it is their discretion/choice and not that of the Government or of ACPO and that they do not have to keep you on the National DNA Database.
If you have not been charged or convicted of any offence, you may wish to argue that:

Keeping innocent people's DNA profiles on a Database permanently is an infringement of fundamental human rights.

There was little discussion in Parliament prior to a vote on this law and it was proposed and adopted without public debate during the first week of the Iraq war.

Keeping innocent people permanently on the database has not noticably increased the likelihood of a crime being successfully detected.

In Scotland, where there has been more consultation and debate, DNA cannot be kept permanently from innocent people. Most people who are acquitted in Scotland get their DNA removed from the Database straight away. In some serious sexual or violent crime cases, DNA can be retained after acquittal in Scotland, but never for longer than 5 years.
You were arrested, but a crime had not actually taken place; you were mistaken for someone else; you were falsely accused by the real perpetrator of the crime; or the police made a wrongful arrest.
You voluntarily gave your DNA but the form you filled in was not explained to you properly or did not give complete information. You now wish to withdraw your consent.
If you have a past conviction for a minor offence you may want to argue that:

Keeping DNA permanently from people convicted of minor offences is excessive. There is no reason to think you might go on to commit the type of crime where DNA evidence might be relevant.
The offence for which you were convicted is no longer considered a crime.
The offence for which you were convicted involved peaceful protest against the Government and retention of your record on the database could be misused by governments in future.
You are concerned that permanent retention of your record might lead to you being unfairly refused a job or visa in the future, or that it will be used to undermine your privacy, for example by investigating who you are related to.
Whether you have been convicted of an offence or not, you may have concerns that:

The database is being used for research purposes. Under the Human Tissue Act you should have to give your consent to genetic research and it is wrong to remove your right to refuse to take part in controversial research.
Keeping DNA samples, which contain unlimited genetic information, is not necessary and only benefits the companies paid to store them. The Human Genetics Commission, which advises the Government on these issues, has said that the samples should be destroyed once the DNA profiles (the string of numbers used for identification purposes) have been obtained from them.
You were not aware that private companies and others would be given access to the NDNAD for genetic research and you have not given your consent to this.

come on lets get writing
 
Police DNA database 'is spiralling out of control'

Secret emails show private firms store genetic data from innocent victims

Antony Barnett, investigations editor
Sunday July 16, 2006
The Observer


The security of the police National DNA Database is in question following the disclosure of confidential emails which reveal that a private firm has secretly been keeping the genetic samples and personal details of hundreds of thousands of arrested people.
Police forces use the company LGC to analyse DNA samples taken from people they arrest. LGC then supplies the information to the National DNA Database. Yet rather than destroy this afterwards, the firm has kept copies, together with highly personal demographic details of the individuals including their names, ages, skin colour and addresses.

In a separate twist, evidence has emerged that the Home Office has given permission for a controversial genetic study to be undertaken using the DNA samples on the police database to see if it is possible to predict a suspect's ethnic background or skin colour from them. Permission has been given for the DNA being collected on the police database to be used in 20 research studies.

These latest disclosures, which were unearthed following a series of Freedom of Information Act requests by The Observer and the campaign group GeneWatch, will give rise to fears that many DNA samples being collected by police from innocent people could be misused. 'Britain's DNA database is spiralling out of control,' said Dr Helen Wallace, deputy director of GeneWatch. 'Thousands of innocent people, including children and victims of crime, are taking part in controversial genetic research without their knowledge or consent.'

With almost 3 million samples, Britain's DNA database is the largest in the world, as police are allowed to retain DNA from anyone arrested whether or not they are found guilty of a crime. It contains more than 50,000 DNA samples taken from children. As the database has grown, ministers have reassured MPs and civil liberties groups that it is tightly controlled. But emails from LGC to the Home Office, seen by The Observer, suggest this is not the case.

The Home Office emailed LGC with its concerns: 'From a [DNA Database] custodian and Data Protection Act perspective, it is important that there are no demographics linked to these retained profiles. Otherwise, suppliers would be building up subsets of the National DNA Database.' The company admits that is has been doing this. It states: 'All the information is on [our system]. We do in effect have a mini-database.' One of LGC's directors is Lord Stevens, the former Metropolitan Police Commissioner, and it has several contracts with companies in the pharmaceutical, biotech and chemicals industry. Although there is no evidence that the firm has used the DNA records for other commercial purposes, opposition MPs are calling for the Home Office to launch an investigation. Lynne Featherstone, the home affairs spokesman for the Liberal Democrats, said: 'This might be more cock-up than conspiracy, but the Home Office must investigate whether DNA taken from thousands of innocent people has not been abused.'

She also expressed concern that the Home Office is allowing the database to be used for research that aims to try to build a 'genetic Photofit' from DNA samples found at a crime scene. She said: 'Anything that links black and ethnic genetic groups to criminality is potentially dangerous. How long before scientists start looking for a criminal gene?'

The genetic research is being carried out by Jon Wetton of the Forensic Science Service. An FSS spokesperson said the aim of the research was to reduce the time taken to identify a suspect .'

A spokesperson for LGC denied it had done anything wrong, saying: 'We are required by our police customers to retain the unused or replicate parts of samples in case we are required by them to carry out further analysis.' A Home office spokesman added the DNA samples were held for 'operational reasons'.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/ ... 76,00.html
 
Thanks for the Genewatch link Techy I'l give that a good looking at with a view to joining. :D
 
Joining Techy in the blazing car boot, y'mean? :lol:
 
morningstar667 said:
Just been on a domestic flight and was a little nonplussed to note that as you show your boarding pass to get to the xray/bag probe they take your picture.How police state is that? It'll be buses and trains next.....

It's true as techybloke says that we have been tried in absentia and found guilty. :furious:

i was on a flight yesterday and i never noticed anything but i'm assuming it's done surrepticiously. of course, i was travelling through an airport not far from prestwick...

i don't see what the problem is with getting your picture taken, tbh. i'd expect that they have cctv so they already have your image as well as being able to check your passport (i also have to divulge my bank details over the internet to make a booking, realistically a far greater risk to me than a totalitarian regime at present).
 
escargot1 said:
Joining Techy in the blazing car boot, y'mean? :lol:

the real issue is whether he would he object to dental records being used to identify him.
 
No need, I've had him chipped. The records show that, let me see, hmm...

He spends most of his time on the golf course.

:?

Must be a malfunction.
 
escargot1 said:
No need, I've had him chipped. The records show that, let me see, hmm...

He spends most of his time on the golf course.

:?

Must be a malfunction.

they'll be able to tell him from the state of his molars. he had a hole in one.







coat on, taxi booked.
 
[taxi driver]Would Sir like to travel in... [indicates boot]here?[/indicates boot][/taxi driver]
 
I've already booked in to see the dentist to have my teeth removed , no point in making life easier for THEM :shock: ;)

Does anyone know how to get rid of fingerprints, they keep coming back when you sand them off with a power sander ouch ooo ouch :!:

And does nayone want to take shares in my new company,
C.R.A.T.L

Contact Retinal Alteration Technology Limited.

patent pending

We give a away a free lead lined titanium card wallet with every pair sold ;)
 
enjoy

We are all criminals, if you dig far enough: we've broken the speed limit, forgotten to file official papers in time, made false statements (often because we misremembered some fact), failed to pay for services, and so on. These are minor offenses -- relatively few of us are deliberate criminals. But even if we aren't active felons we are all potential criminals, and a case can be -- and is being -- made for keeping us all under surveillance, all the time.

A Panopticon Singularity is the logical outcome if the burgeoning technologies of the singularity are funneled into automating law enforcement. Previous police states were limited by manpower, but the panopticon singularity substitutes technology, and ultimately replaces human conscience with a brilliant but merciless prosthesis.

If a panopticon singularity emerges, you'd be well advised to stay away from Massachusetts if you and your partner aren't married. Don't think about smoking a joint unless you want to see the inside of one of the labour camps where over 50% of the population sooner or later go. Don't jaywalk, chew gum in public, smoke, exceed the speed limit, stand in front of fire exit routes, or wear clothing that violates the city dress code (passed on the nod in 1892, and never repealed because everybody knew nobody would enforce it and it would take up valuable legislative time). You won't be able to watch those old DVD's of 'Friends' you copied during the naughty oughties because if you stick them in your player it'll call the copyright police on you. You'd better not spend too much time at the bar, or your insurance premiums will rocket and your boss might ask you to undergo therapy. You might be able to read a library book or play a round of a computer game, but your computer will be counting the words you read and monitoring your pulse so that it can bill you for the excitement it has delivered.

And don't think you can escape by going and living in a log cabin in the middle of nowhere. It is in the nature of every police state that the most heinous offense of all is attempting to escape from it. And after all, if you're innocent, why are you trying to hide?

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/rant/pa ... essay.html

lots more on the page to read
 
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