• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Britain: Police State?

To be honest among certain age groups the police lost any respect a long time ago, and it would it appear that very little has been done to rebuild that respect and trust.

As for the tasers, well I'd prefer they use a taser than a gun, however I'd far rather they (the government) also tried to sort out WHY things seem to be turning to shit (or so we're told anyway). If they don't sort out the root causes then nothing will change.
 
ted_bloody_maul said:
jefflovestone said:
ted_bloody_maul said:
If police officers start using them inappropriately they will most likely face censure.

In my opinion, they already have.

Are there any particular examples of this having happened?

Well, how about the bloke mentioned a couple of days ago? Tasered, shot at with rubber bullets, then tasered again? In the dark? Action as extreme as that in less than optimal circumstances seems fairly inappropriate to me.
 
jefflovestone said:
Well, how about the bloke mentioned a couple of days ago? Tasered, shot at with rubber bullets, then tasered again? In the dark? Action as extreme as that in less than optimal circumstances seems fairly inappropriate to me.

You mean Brian Loan, I take it? He died three days after being tasered which doesn't seem to fit with the proven health consequences of their use ie immediate cardiac arrest, so it's far from proven that the tasering was the cause. He also appears to have been badly beaten at some point close to or during the police custody as well as having being shot with a rubber bullet - would that not be a possible cause?

Bearing in mind that he'd been reported to the police for an axe attack and was apparently capable of withstanding a tasering and being shot with a rubber bullet before being subdued how would you approach such an individual? Remember that the darkness also renders rubber bullets and any other weapon non-functional. Also, would you not describe resistance to arrest by a man suspected of having an axe (amongst other weapons) as rendering the concept of optimal circumstances somewhat obsolete?
 
ted_bloody_maul said:
You mean Brian Loan, I take it? He died three days after being tasered which doesn't seem to fit with the proven health consequences of their use ie immediate cardiac arrest, so it's far from proven that the tasering was the cause. He also appears to have been badly beaten at some point close to or during the police custody as well as having being shot with a rubber bullet - would that not be a possible cause?

Bearing in mind that he'd been reported to the police for an axe attack and was apparently capable of withstanding a tasering and being shot with a rubber bullet before being subdued how would you approach such an individual? Remember that the darkness also renders rubber bullets and any other weapon non-functional. Also, would you not describe resistance to arrest by a man suspected of having an axe (amongst other weapons) as rendering the concept of optimal circumstances somewhat obsolete?

With this particular point, it's not so much the fact he died. Although that's an obvious point of concern. It's the fact that whether he was tooled up like a Viking raider or not, the incident happened in "the dark". I think shooting anyone with rubber bullets or a taser "in the dark" is in appropriate. I'm not disputing the fact he was armed and dangerous or even that he needed subduing, it's the fact that fairly extreme/significant action was taken in less-than-optimal circumstances. It's that element specifically that suggests to me the incident was inappropriate.
 
jefflovestone said:
With this particular point, it's not so much the fact he died. Although that's an obvious point of concern. It's the fact that whether he was tooled up like a Viking raider or not, the incident happened in "the dark". I think shooting anyone with rubber bullets or a taser "in the dark" is in appropriate. I'm not disputing the fact he was armed and dangerous or even that he needed subduing, it's the fact that fairly extreme/significant action was taken in less-than-optimal circumstances. It's that element specifically that suggests to me the incident was inappropriate.

But what response would be appropriate then?
 
ted_bloody_maul said:
jefflovestone said:
With this particular point, it's not so much the fact he died. Although that's an obvious point of concern. It's the fact that whether he was tooled up like a Viking raider or not, the incident happened in "the dark". I think shooting anyone with rubber bullets or a taser "in the dark" is in appropriate. I'm not disputing the fact he was armed and dangerous or even that he needed subduing, it's the fact that fairly extreme/significant action was taken in less-than-optimal circumstances. It's that element specifically that suggests to me the incident was inappropriate.

But what response would be appropriate then?

How about using them big torches coppers like to dangle from their belts or something?
 
Was protocol followed? The report is unclear on this, the protocol for firearms offices seems to be fairly rigorous. Bear in mind the taser training is apparently only 3 days + additional coaching. Were these officers firearm trained, taser trained or untrained? Does the protocol allows for "shooting in the dark"? What would have happened if they'd hit someone else?

How about stresses on the body as a result of being tasered? Are there any? Have they been quantified? Have they been independently verified? Do we know for sure that the effect on the human body is minimal? Do the various deaths in Canada and the US bear this out?
 
jefflovestone said:
How about using them big torches coppers like to dangle from their belts or something?

To what end? It obviously wasn't so dark that they couldn't see what they were doing only that they couldn't see whether the barbs had attached. Irrespective of whether they had they would have had to fire again given that he wasn't subdued so what difference would this have made to the outcome?
 
'Put the entire UK population on DNA database' urges top judge

A senior judge today called for the whole population and every visitor to Britain to be added to the national DNA database.

Lord Justice Sedley said the database which holds DNA from crime suspects and scenes is "indefensible" because it is unfair and inconsistent.

He also said an expanded database would aid crime prevention.

Critics say those who commit certain offences should have their details removed after a set period.

The DNA database - which is 12 years old and, with four million profiles, the largest in the world - grows by 30,000 samples a month taken from suspects or recovered from crime scenes.

The data of everyone arrested for a recordable offence - all but the most minor offences - remain on the system regardless of age, seriousness of alleged offence, and whether or not they were prosecuted.

It includes some 24,000 samples from young people between 10 and 17 years old, who were arrested but never convicted.


Sir Stephen Sedley, who is one of England's most experienced appeal court judges, told the BBC: "Where we are at the moment is indefensible.

"We have a situation where if you happen to have been in the hands of the police, then your DNA is on permanent record. If you haven't, it isn't... that's broadly the picture.

"It means that people who have been arrested but acquitted - some because they are innocent, some because they are just lucky - all stay on the database.

"It also means that a great many people who are walking the streets and whose DNA would show them guilty of crimes, go free."

He said reducing the database would be a mistake because he knew of cases where an offender who had escaped conviction had ultimately been brought to justice by DNA evidence.

He said the only option was to expand the database to cover the whole population and all those who visit the UK.

"Going forwards has very serious but manageable implications. It means that everybody guilty or innocent should expect their DNA to be on file for the absolutely rigorously restricted purpose of crime detection."

But Professor Stephen Bain, a member of the national DNA database strategy board, warned expansion would be expensive and make mistakes more likely. "The DNA genie can't be put back in the bottle," he said.

"If the information about you is exposed due to illegal or perhaps even legalised use of the database, in a way that is not currently anticipated, then it's a very difficult situation."

A Home Office spokeswoman said: "The DNA database has revolutionised the way the police can protect the public through identifying offenders and securing more convictions. It provides the police on average with around 3,500 matches each month."

She said there are no Government plans to introduce a universal compulsory, or voluntary, national DNA database, but that the Home Office is currently undertaking a review of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (Pace) 1984, which sets out the powers to take and retain biometric data.

Home Office Minister Tony McNulty told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme: "I think we are broadly sympathetic to the thrust of what he has said. There is no Government plans to go to a compulsory database now or in the foreseeable future.

"There is a logic to what Sir Stephen is saying. I have said that myself in the past, that there is a real logic and cohesion to the point that says 'Well, put everybody on'.

"But I think he probably does under-estimate the practicalities, logistics and huge civil liberties and ethics issue around that."

Last month it emerged that a new profile is added to the national DNA database every 45 seconds. Current thresholds allow only for samples to be taken from individuals arrested for a "recordable" offence, usually a crime punishable by imprisonment.

Anyone picked up for a non-recordable offence cannot have a sample taken without their consent to confirm or disprove their involvement in that offence, or to create a record in a national searchable database.

But a summary of responses to the Home Office review of Pace said that a number of respondents "welcomed the ability to reduce the threshold, including to the extent of allowing for the taking of fingerprints, DNA and footwear impressions for non-recordable offences for the purpose of offender identification and searching databases".

Also last month, the Human Genetics Commission (HGC), the Government's advisory body on new developments in human genetics, launched a Citizens' Inquiry into the use of DNA and genetic information to fight crime.

Baroness Helena Kennedy QC, the HGC's chair, said: "The police in England and Wales have powers, unrivalled internationally, to take a DNA sample from any arrested individual, without their consent.

"We want to ensure that the public voice is heard on issues that people think are relevant.

"The Citizens' Inquiry is likely to grapple with issues such as whether storing the DNA profiles of victims and suspects who are not charged, or who are subsequently acquitted of any wrongdoing, is justified by the need to fight crime."

She said that the current database stored a preponderance of samples from young men, including the samples of one third of British black males, and that under current law it is very difficult to have your sample removed.

But she added that the database was helping to bring people to justice over a "steadily increasing" number of serious crimes, including murders and rapes.

According to statistics released in June, the DNA fingerprints of 108 children aged under 10 have been stored and there were a further 883,888 records of people aged between 10 and 17.

Article link
 
This is an appalling suggestion and typical of the current way of thinking.

It is "racist" that there are more black people than white people on the DNA database. The answer is, therefore, not to delete records of people who were not convicted, but to force everyone to put their DNA on the database.

The fact that the Home Office has not rejected this out of hand sickens me.
 
The core argument will be (as usual), if you have done nothing illegal then you have nothing to fear. Of course, as soon as the first false positive comes in and some poor bugger is hauled off for questioning, then eyebrows will be raised, as soon as the first person of note is hauled in on a false positive then the whole thing will be quietly shelved.

The accuracy of the DNA database is piss-poor at the moment and unlikely to improve unless the wheels are greased.
 
I'd be all in favour if the following points were adhered to:

a) 100% foolproof testing method
b) Zero posibility of mix-ups or deliberate interference with samples or results
c) 100% faith that those in power, now and in the future, couldn't abuse the power they would have with access to such a database


So I guess it's unlikely to happen then? ;)
 
This is an appalling suggestion and typical of the current way of thinking.

my thoughts exactly... why correct an inequality by improving things for those who are being poorly treated when you can have equality by dragging every bugger down to the same level :(
 
Quake42 said:
This is an appalling suggestion and typical of the current way of thinking.

It is "racist" that there are more black people than white people on the DNA database. The answer is, therefore, not to delete records of people who were not convicted, but to force everyone to put their DNA on the database.

The fact that the Home Office has not rejected this out of hand sickens me.

Yeah, I have no idea why they come out with this 'racism' tosh.
It's really quite simple - perhaps there are more black people on the database because there are more of them who commit crimes? This daft lefty government won't let us speak the truth now.
Channel 4 news this evening was an example of crap journalism - they wheeled out 2 'experts' to talk about this DNA database issue, and neither of them came out with any mention of civil liberties. They both thought it was a good idea. There was no balanced view. Perhaps Channel 4's journalists think it's a good idea too, and want to persuade us all?
 
Channel 4 news this evening was an example of crap journalism - they wheeled out 2 'experts' to talk about this DNA database issue, and neither of them came out with any mention of civil liberties. They both thought it was a good idea. There was no balanced view. Perhaps Channel 4's journalists think it's a good idea too, and want to persuade us all?

I'm surprised how craven the media is being about this. The Evening Standard tonight had a leader on the issue, pointing out some practical problems but essentially concluding that it might be a decent idea if some of these problems were ironed out. No mention of civil liberties as you say. It's hard to imagine such a suggestion being seriously mooted even five years ago, let alone ten or fifteen.

Yeah, I have no idea why they come out with this 'racism' tosh.
It's really quite simple - perhaps there are more black people on the database because there are more of them who commit crimes? This daft lefty government won't let us speak the truth now.

The main issue seems to be that, once your DNA is on the database, it never comes off. Again this is a recent development - historically, if you were arrested but released without charge, or were acquitted at trial, your fingerprints, photographs and any other material would be destroyed. This is no longer the case so a lot of people, especially young black men, fiund themselves on the database despite having no convictions.

The obvious answer is to revert to the previous position and destroy the DNA samples, fingerprints etc of anyone who is not convicted of an offence. Instead, the approach seems to be that everyone will go on the system as this wil make it "fairer".

And I agree the "racism" thing is a smokescreen - it is generally brought into a discussion purely to make it difficult to argue against the proposition lest one be labelled "racist" which, as I have said before, has become the 21st century equivalent of "witch".
 
ted_bloody_maul said:
jefflovestone said:
How about using them big torches coppers like to dangle from their belts or something?

To what end? It obviously wasn't so dark that they couldn't see what they were doing only that they couldn't see whether the barbs had attached. Irrespective of whether they had they would have had to fire again given that he wasn't subdued so what difference would this have made to the outcome?

I'd have thought it being too dark to see whether the barbs had have attached - i.e. the taser had actually hit the target and worked as intended - is a fairly crucial point in this.

Is the point of using a taser to just fire repeatedly until the target goes down? WTF? I'm no doctor but how is repeatedly tasering someone safe?
 
jefflovestone said:
I'd have thought it being too dark to see whether the barbs had have attached - i.e. the taser had actually hit the target and worked as intended - is a fairly crucial point in this.

Well that rather defeats the purpose of having a taser. What's the point in having a weapon that you'd have to be up close to a suspect to see if it's worked or not? That hardly increases the security of the police officer. Clearly it hadn't worked since the suspect was still in place to receive a plastic bullet and a second tasering. Unless this happened in rapid succession (in which case the point about checking to see whether the barbs had attached is an irrelevance) it would have surely been apparent that the first tasering was ineffectual irrespective of its accuracy.

jefflovestone said:
Is the point of using a taser to just fire repeatedly until the target goes down? WTF? I'm no doctor but how is repeatedly tasering someone safe?

Why would it be less safe than allowing time and opportunity to someone who is suspected of being armed? Especially given that either you didn't hit them first time round or the first hit was not enough to subdue them. Of course it's not safe but against someone who is violent and potentially armed what effective method of restraint is?
 
lupinwick said:
Was protocol followed? The report is unclear on this, the protocol for firearms offices seems to be fairly rigorous. Bear in mind the taser training is apparently only 3 days + additional coaching.
Three days sounds to me like ample time to train a Police Officer in the use of a Taser. Officers are already trained to assess and deal with potentially dangerous situations (even us humble PCSOs have this excellent and comprehensive training). The preferred option is ALWAYS to avoid confrontation wherever possible. A taser is a short-range weapon that requires minimal maintenance, and thus far is issued only to those Officers who are already firearms trained.
As for protocol, sometimes it will be down to the Officer's individual assssment of the immediate threat, and a desicion must be made quickly if lives are in danger.
It's easy to criticise from the safety and comfort of one's PC terminal, but the luxury of time for sober consideration of all possible outcomes and alternatives may not be afforded to the Offier at the "sharp end" who may only have a few seconds to react in a life or death situation. IMHO it's remarkable how consistently Officers get it right (that doesn't often headline in the Media though).
 
Quake42 said:
...

Yeah, I have no idea why they come out with this 'racism' tosh.
It's really quite simple - perhaps there are more black people on the database because there are more of them who commit crimes? This daft lefty government won't let us speak the truth now.

...

And I agree the "racism" thing is a smokescreen - it is generally brought into a discussion purely to make it difficult to argue against the proposition lest one be labelled "racist" which, as I have said before, has become the 21st century equivalent of "witch".
I'll tell you what's "tosh".

Since many of those pulled up and had DNA samples taken are either innocent, or not charged with any crime, then all the DNA database seems to prove, at the moment, is that a disproportionate number of black people are being pulled up and having their DNA sampled, not that more black people commit crimes. Which would appear to be one of the points that Lord Justice Sedley is trying to make.

If you don't understand the argument, don't do the Post.
 
ted_bloody_maul said:
jefflovestone said:
I'd have thought it being too dark to see whether the barbs had have attached - i.e. the taser had actually hit the target and worked as intended - is a fairly crucial point in this.

Well that rather defeats the purpose of having a taser. What's the point in having a weapon that you'd have to be up close to a suspect to see if it's worked or not? That hardly increases the security of the police officer. Clearly it hadn't worked since the suspect was still in place to receive a plastic bullet and a second tasering. Unless this happened in rapid succession (in which case the point about checking to see whether the barbs had attached is an irrelevance) it would have surely been apparent that the first tasering was ineffectual irrespective of its accuracy.

According to Wiki, the maximum range of a taser is 30 ft, although I gather from elsewhere the ideal range is around 15 ft. I think if it's too dark to see whether the taser has connected at less than 30 ft, let alone 15ft, the taser shouldn't have been fired at all.

jefflovestone said:
Is the point of using a taser to just fire repeatedly until the target goes down? WTF? I'm no doctor but how is repeatedly tasering someone safe?

Why would it be less safe than allowing time and opportunity to someone who is suspected of being armed? Especially given that either you didn't hit them first time round or the first hit was not enough to subdue them. Of course it's not safe but against someone who is violent and potentially armed what effective method of restraint is?[/quote]

I'm not suggesting anything else is safer and I'm not offering an alternative to tasers generally, although I am making a more general point that, from looking at reports of the taser-related deaths and usage, that there seems to be a lot of inappropriate abuse of the technology as well a worrying amount of people who die from a "non-lethal weapon".

Regarding the 'need' for tasers, Here's an interesting quote:

And the company is quick to tout the devices’ law enforcement benefits. “The field results are extraordinary and dramatic,” says Steve Tuttle, Taser International’s vice president of communications. “We’re reducing officer-related shootings. Here in Phoenix there was a 54-percent drop in officer-related shootings that Phoenix reported as a direct result of Taser technology.”

This would be great, if it weren’t a spin on the facts. A quick call to the Phoenix Police Department revealed this statistic to be highly misleading.

“Tasers were deployed to everybody in the department beginning in 2003,” says Dave Kelly, a Phoenix Police Department lieutenant who works in officer training. “We went from 24 officer-related shootings in 2002 to 12 in 2003. But we didn’t stay there. In 2004, we had 20. It really bounces back and forth. Can we attribute any drop to the implementation of the Taser? I’m not comfortable saying we can.”
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
I'll tell you what's "tosh".

Since many of those pulled up and had DNA samples taken are either innocent, or not charged with any crime, then all the DNA database seems to prove, at the moment, is that a disproportionate number of black people are being pulled up and having their DNA sampled, not that more black people commit crimes. Which would appear to be one of the points that Lord Justice Sedley is trying to make.

If you don't understand the argument, don't do the Post.

I disagree. The reason that there are more black people on the DNA database is because more black people commit crime per head of population, however unpleasant that statistic may be. The reason there are many innocent black people on the register is because they're more likely to be associated with or mistaken for the actual perpetrator. Do you really think, for instance, that police officers are hearing descriptions of an attack by an elderly white woman but deciding to pull up young black men instead or is it more likely that's the description given them by the victim?
 
jefflovestone said:
According to Wiki, the maximum range of a taser is 30 ft, although I gather from elsewhere the ideal range is around 15 ft. I think if it's too dark to see whether the taser has connected at less than 30 ft, let alone 15ft, the taser shouldn't have been fired at all.

Would that apply in circumstances where someone was armed and taking shots at you in the dark? I doubt many would refuse to use a taser in such circumstances and it's the circumstances which are relevant. The safety of a suspect, imo, is of lesser import than that of the police officer or the public otherwise why allow them any weaponry at all?


jefflovestone said:
I'm not suggesting anything else is safer and I'm not offering an alternative to tasers generally, although I am making a more general point that, from looking at reports of the taser-related deaths and usage, that there seems to be a lot of inappropriate abuse of the technology as well a worrying amount of people who die from a "non-lethal weapon".

But to some extent that's because the inappropriate use is being looked for. Also, how many people so far have been found to be killed from taser (aside from the issue of how many lives they might be expected to have saved)? Even where there has been deaths it has been extremely rare and not unsurprising given the nature of the crime they're deployed to deal with. If you believe they're lethal then any associated but unproven deaths will simply reinforce that belief. I dare say there will be some initial over-use but over time, like anything and anybody else, police will learn how to use them responsibly. The initial misuse should not rule out the long-term benefits, imo.

jefflovestone said:
Regarding the 'need' for tasers, Here's an interesting quote:

And the company is quick to tout the devices’ law enforcement benefits. “The field results are extraordinary and dramatic,” says Steve Tuttle, Taser International’s vice president of communications. “We’re reducing officer-related shootings. Here in Phoenix there was a 54-percent drop in officer-related shootings that Phoenix reported as a direct result of Taser technology.”

This would be great, if it weren’t a spin on the facts. A quick call to the Phoenix Police Department revealed this statistic to be highly misleading.

“Tasers were deployed to everybody in the department beginning in 2003,” says Dave Kelly, a Phoenix Police Department lieutenant who works in officer training. “We went from 24 officer-related shootings in 2002 to 12 in 2003. But we didn’t stay there. In 2004, we had 20. It really bounces back and forth. Can we attribute any drop to the implementation of the Taser? I’m not comfortable saying we can.”

Those figures have little context but do, on the face of it, show a decrease. The article goes on immediately to say:

"However, for the sake of balance it must be noted that Kelly, as well as other law enforcement officials I spoke to, say Tasers have an important place in law enforcement when responsibly implemented. Of course, it is only logical that having access to a weapon less lethal than a gun would prevent deaths. This statistical manipulation, though, appears emblematic of how the company handles data related to the safety and effects of its devices."

All that the article really tells us is that Taser has a PR department. I doubt that's the only source police forces and the law consult when deciding whether to use tasers or not. In the abscence of any independent studies showing real operational problems the PR department doesn't really need to be consulted in any case.
 
If you don't understand the argument, don't do the Post.

Of course I understand the argument, please do not insult me.

I happen to think the argument is rubbish - as Ted says, like it or not more young black men commit crimes than other groups. Hence they are more likely to be arrested and more likely to be on the database.

Saying that this is in itself racist is utter nonsense and as I said the word now has a totemic quality and is very often used in arguments solely to make it difficult for opponents to disagree.
 
the anecdotal reports i've heard on the effects of being tasered suggest that you're in a bloody state for quite a while afterwards, and some people have said that they weren't right the next day... i notice on the video link of Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom being zapped that it cuts off real quickly afterwards:

Chief constable zapped by Taser

North Wales Police Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom has been "zapped" with a Taser electronic stun gun.

The 53-year-old offered himself as a target to feel the effects of being shot with 50,000 volts, and was hit for less than two seconds.

Footage on the force's website shows him swearing as he is floored. He warns people who disobey Taser-armed officers they will "not enjoy the consequences".

North Wales Police is expanding the use of Tasers to rural areas.

'Strangulated yell'

Under a heading marked "An interesting experience!", Mr Brunstrom's blog described the force's use of the stun gun since 2003 as "a great success".

"We're prepared to use this on members of the public when we have to. It's right and proper that the head of the organisation tries it out for himself," he says.

Video footage shows him being supported by two officers as he is shot in the back with a Taser by a third officer.

He makes what he described as a "strangulated yell" as he is zapped for 1.5 seconds, and tells his officers: "That was long enough, thanks".

Speaking to camera afterwards, Mr Brunstrom - who recently passed his force's fitness test - said: "What was it like? Not pleasant, is the answer."

He added: "I was completely incapable of movement. I would have fallen if I hadn't been supported by my colleagues.

"I very strongly advise you, if faced by an officer and a Taser, that you follow the instructions of the nice police officer, because you will not enjoy the consequences of disobedience."

Mr Brunstrom's blog said the trial involving the 28 officers in rural areas began last Saturday and the effects of the deployment would be measured "over the next year or so".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6980867.stm
 
Saying that this is in itself racist is utter nonsense and as I said the word now has a totemic quality and is very often used in arguments solely to make it difficult for opponents to disagree.

The problem is that black kids tend to be from the disadvantaged and generally shittier areas of society where crime is endemic.

2.1 There is no compelling evidence to suggest that young black people in the UK commit a disproportionate number of crimes simply because of their ethnic background. Instead, the view of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies is that research evidence shows they are more likely to become caught up in the criminal justice system due to their disadvantaged socio–economic status and position within contemporary British society. There is an extensive literature on the social disadvantages experienced by minority ethnic populations that affect children’s development and education (Amin et al 1997). It is accepted that black young people face increasing challenges as other groups advance more quickly in their educational achievements. Furthermore, minority groups are clustered in areas of deprivation where facilities are known to be few and services inadequate.

Source

Society itself fails these kids.
 
I can see attacks on cops going up massively after the introduction of the tazer, and I don't just mean the lies told to justify its use.
 
lupinwick said:
Saying that this is in itself racist is utter nonsense and as I said the word now has a totemic quality and is very often used in arguments solely to make it difficult for opponents to disagree.

The problem is that black kids tend to be from the disadvantaged and generally shittier areas of society where crime is endemic.

2.1 There is no compelling evidence to suggest that young black people in the UK commit a disproportionate number of crimes simply because of their ethnic background. Instead, the view of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies is that research evidence shows they are more likely to become caught up in the criminal justice system due to their disadvantaged socio–economic status and position within contemporary British society. There is an extensive literature on the social disadvantages experienced by minority ethnic populations that affect children’s development and education (Amin et al 1997). It is accepted that black young people face increasing challenges as other groups advance more quickly in their educational achievements. Furthermore, minority groups are clustered in areas of deprivation where facilities are known to be few and services inadequate.

Source

Society itself fails these kids.

I'm not disagreeing with what you say, but - has anybody compared the rate of offending of white kids from the same kind of disadvantaged background? I think you'll find that the amount of criminality is proportionally smaller, which is why there are fewer of them in jail.
And it's primarily West Indian youths, not black Africans - even though the Africans are from a much poorer background.
Most of the problem is the social breakdown among West Indian families - a very high incidence of single-parent families, soft parenting with no discipline or good male role models, and a willingness to allow young black men to continue to behave, speak and dress like adolescents well into their adulthood. So the black community only has to collectively look in a mirror to find the culprit.
 
I'm not disagreeing with what you say, but - has anybody compared the rate of offending of white kids from the same kind of disadvantaged background? I think you'll find that the amount of criminality is proportionally smaller, which is why there are fewer of them in jail.

I suspect the picture is more complex. From memory I *think* that the lowest level of academic achievement is seen in white working class males. I also understand that black and white males from poorer backgrounds both have relatively high levels of criminality, but the crimes are different - burglaries, for example, are predominantly a "white" crime while street robberies are more associated with black youths.

You are right to say that the crime rate is higher among males of West Indian origin than African, although there are particular issues with certain groups (eg Somalis). Equally, there are fewer offenders amongst young men of Bangladeshi origin, even though they are often seen as being amongst the poorest groups economically.

One point that everyone seems to forget in these discussions, which are inevitably focused around race, is that the one common factor in criminality seems to be that virtually all serious and/or regular offenders are male. Perhaps attempts to reduce crime should focus on that rather than on particular ethnicities,

This is all of interest, but quite why the fact that certain ethnic groups are over-represented on the DNA database should mean that we are all required to submit our details remains unclear to me.
 
Back
Top