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Buffy Poisoning Young Minds!

Religion, cut to it's basics, requires no proof, only belief.

Surely, as Forteans, we believe nothing without proof?

So why are we arguing about the rights and wrongs of religion?

(Posted with big stick in hand, manically rotating! :rolleyes: )
 
Advocates of Buddhism often argue that it is a philosophy, not a religion. Many pagan religions are similar in thgis respect, and in addition many are derived from so called "Mystery Religions" in which the individual discovers the teachings for themselves by visions or some other personal proof. Unlike organised religon where individuals are expected to believe what they are told by those further up the hierachy.

But why are we arguing about religion? Perhaps because, as forteans, we enjoy new information and discussion? (cynics might say we we enjoy argument ;)
 
.....But why are we arguing about religion? Perhaps because, as forteans, we enjoy new information and discussion? (cynics might say we we enjoy argument ;) ....
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I'm not sure that I believe that. Discuss.....

;)
 
Oh, Puuurrrrlease!

Guys, I'm Wiccan.

I can assure you that most 'newbies' who get entranced by TV and Hollywood's mega buck special effects drop the interest as soon as they realise that there's a heck of a lot more work involved than waving a magick wand.

Insofar as Wicca is concerned, Magick is only a very, very
small part of the whole 'Way of Life' of a Wiccan.

And believe me, it's incredibly unimpressive when something happens. There's no sparkly lights and tinkling bells, no one turns into a frog, no puffs of smoke (unless you count the incense).

It's all about enhancing reality and effecting a subtle nudge to allow a change to occur. All for the good. Nice and gentle, nice and harmless.

Of course, Magick can and is performed by non Wiccans, after all a Witch doesn't have to follow the Wiccan path. The trigger for all magick is belief, so theoretically anyone who believes in anything strongly enough can practice Magick.
But try getting there without a struggle.
By the time you reach a level where you can do something, you'll have reached a higher level of understanding about the Nature of the Universe and life itself.

With that comes the responsibilty of realising the consequences of your actions.

It's a bit like learning Karate: you learn it so that you don't have to use it. You learn to know yourself and your place in soceity/the World.
Who needs Magick when you have that?

Don't worry. Teen Girlies and Boys will soon get tired of things when nothing happens, the shine soon wears off.

Oh, and it's only Evil or Bad if the person is. Magick, the Occult, the Craft (a gun?) is not per se 'wrong'. It's the way that it's used that makes the difference.

Tv is TV, real life is a lot less glitzy. Don't get caught up in that misconception, please.

Here, Here to Moggadon and Lucydru. Thanks for the positive comments.
 
I'm not Wiccan. I'm not evil. I'm not a Sourcerer or what have you, but I do know that magick is a very real, very potent medium with which an individual can alter their life/environment etc.

Now, many people also get Ouija and Magick mixed up, and why?Because of Hollywood!

Ouija isn't necessarily (is that spelt right?) evil, but can be if the spirit that you contact is evil.

However, Magick is actually nothing more than incantations and inscence visually, but a whole lot deeper on the inside. No lightning and flashy lights and mysterious voices (unless you dable in the evil side of things that is! And that whole thing with teleportation, that isn't even magick. That is "Mind over Matter"...
 
stirring a cauldron?

:) I am prepared to believe making up a whacky religion can be an entertaining and sometimes inexpensive hobby: wicca, freemasons, odinists, church of England etc.(have I offended everybody?) and I am also prepared to believe that most can be perfectly harmless. (maybe not the smoking deadly nightshade ones).

What bothers me a bit is the whacky political ideas that seem to go with them.
 
Re: stirring a cauldron?

Dan4v2 said:
What bothers me a bit is the whacky political ideas that seem to go with them.
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Like what? Wicca for a while went hand in hand with femenism, but there are Pagan religions other than Wicca (most of which are less "patchworked".. oops, may have insulted someone - sorry!).
 
Buffy? Buttwipe.

Decent comments by Moggadon & Quicksilver - obviously y'all have knowledge about the subject you're commenting on (unlike some - 'tree-hugging hippy bullsh*t?' - man, do a little research! :rolleyes: )

One thing that has been mentioned but can't be overstated is that no matter what esoteric path you follow (and there is a fair old choice), you're not going to get far without a hell of a lot of knowledge and double that much dedication. And by 'get anywhere' I'm talking about a personal journey, not all this Buffy crap which has about as much connection with the occult as the Pope has with the porn industry. Once you embark on a journey you can't just leave off it then pick it up again when the mood suits. That's why a lot of people scorn the esoteric arts - they don't have the discipline to further themselves and therefore dismiss the whole concept as Foolish (pardon the vague pun, for those who know what I mean).
 
Well, here's the majority of my response to a private message from a tree-huggin free thinker. I hope it gives some idea of what got my goat:


Re: If only closed minds came with closed mouths

"closed minds"? That's a good one.
Go back and read what your fellow Wiccan wrote. Someone started the thread wondering if youngsters taking an interest in magick was dangerous. By way of response your no doubt open-minded affiliate imputed Christian beliefs to the thread-starter and attacked them personally on the grounds of these groundlessly attributed beliefs. Well golly, that's reasonable, telling someone what they believe then insulting them for that.

But I find that approach typical; the anyone-who-doesn't-agree-with-me-is-the-mind-slave-of-a-dead-god kind of free thinking seems to be the last refuge and first resort of most atheists, Wiccans, Satanists &c. Just to take Christianity as an example, where do William Blake, Gerard Manley Hopkins, Meister Eckhart, Dr David Jenkins &c fit into the same "regimented" religion as Torquemada? Could it be that there are actually variations in belief among those you don't agree with, and that much as you'd like to believe otherwise They are not all out to get you?

But it's so easy to attack stereotypes isn't it? I just gave it back threefold.
 
I've read through the entire topic again and I'm not sure how it has turned into an argument, but it seems to have done so. Enough already! lets have a serene look at the everything:

fk1121 wondered whether it might be dangerous for teenagers drawn into Wicca and other esoteric subjects by TV shows. Various Pagans and people with experience in such matters gave the general view that many teenagers might not properly understand the religions in question and gain very little, but are actually in no danger of real harm.

Perhaps overeacting slightly, some accused others of labelling occult religions with stereotypes. This is understandable given the history of persecution, and borne out by the reactions of some other people on the forum, but perhaps unwise in the cause of religious tolerance.

So: everyone has their own opinion about the pagan beliefs (valuable way of life or a load of rubbish), but those with actual experience say they are not particularly dangerous.

Anyone with anything to add?
 
DanJW said:
Anyone with anything to add?
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Just this - any belief system that denies others the right to believe what they want is wrong. Taleban, anyone? :(
 
Hurrah, sense at last!

Well said, Dan(JW) & Derek
Religion is one of the most emotive issues to discuss.

There will always be cynics, there will always be bigots.

Open minds and the ability to cut through the dogma shows that most religions are on the same path, the old ones and the newer.

Some comments made by those with closed minds show their ignorance and failure to form their own opinions, but follow the mainstream.
I don't intend that as an insult, it's just a crying shame that the truth is often percieved as the majority decision.

I think we all know that's not the case, right?


;)
 
DerekH said:
Just this - any belief system that denies others the right to believe what they want is wrong. Taleban, anyone? :(
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Christianity in all its forms condemns the participation in other religions as sinful, aetheism too (although this is just a sin, not a Deadly Sin)...

"There is no other god but God... You shall not worship false idols"

It's only 'wrong' if you look at it from an external viewpoint. Otherwise, the religion in question is obviously representative of the truth and therefore the question of wrongness doesn't enter into it.

Probably.
 
I haven't seen any complaints about "Angel" yet...but thats just "Murder the Brooding Vampire Wrote" isn't it!
He only kills Vampires and shows off his longs jacket...
 
Dead Flag

Christianity, whatever the flavour you use, is regimented. There are books telling you what to do and how to do it. There are people ( usually men ) telling you what to do and how to do it. Christianity is a path that some people follow, and that path is straight and narrow, with no room for shorcuts or any sight seeing. You must stay on the straight and narrow path, or else you fall off and you are damned.

Wicca, because there are so many people using it to enhance their lives, is diverse. It's multi faceted, multi lingual, and the best thing of all, there's no right and wrong way of doing it. The one and only hard and fast rule of thum to follow is ' do unto others as you would have done to you.'

Easy innit ?

Moggadon
 
There are books telling you what to do and how to do it.


Moggadon
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Isn't this where we came in?

I don't want to turn into a full-time apologist for Christianity, but there are as many priestly guides as there are priestly dictators.

Also, I think you're maintaining a very conservative, mainstream Christian attitude by the implicit assumption in your comments on regimentation that "heretics" are not really Christians.

Steady on there!
 
Here we go again ??

Of course the Heretics thought they were Christians. That was the whole point of their hereticisms....They were, and probably still are, just trying to make their own sense out of a bad job. Christianity in all it's flavours, is so watered down, so twisted through misinterpretation, that there's no way what the Catholics, and what the Protestants, or the Methodists or the New Scientists are trying to say, is ever going to get the bottom of the two thousand year debate. I resent being called a tree hugging free thinker, just because I don't want to adhere to some mishmash of a religion that persecutes those that refuse to accept\follow\obey\be individuals. Christianity is the biggest cause of death and destruction this side of the extinction of the dinosaurs, and then there were probably some Christians involved in that ( now there's a conspiracy if ever there was one )

Moggadon
 
Woops !!

:blah:

Apologies to any Christians out there after that last outburst.......

My point really is that teenagers are teenagers, and the teen years are very transient, as is the interest that teenagers have in alot of things. Most of them will never pursue anything that they show a little interest in at that age. I really don't think that books of this type are any more dangerous than a chocolate bar. ie a little short term interest doesn't amount to much or anything, just like a few calories from the chocolate.

Moggadon
 
Re: Woops !!

Moggadon said:
:blah:

Apologies to any Christians out there after that last outburst.......
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I forgive you, my son.
 
To those who believe that Buffy The Vampire Slayer is poisoning young minds, well if it is then it belongs in an extremely long list. A list that will pretty much have to have every single thing possible on the planet in it. My theory is that if BTVS can poison a young mind than anything can because the mind may have something wrong with it already.

Reality check people! I seriously do not think that BTVS will harm any young person in anyway when it comes to magic(k). You say that they way the use of it is shown will get young people using it in a dangerous way. N.B. What about all that fight sences on the show. Isn't trying to learn that dangerous?! No it's not actually as to learn how to fight you really need to go to a proper club.

To copy anything magic(k) or fighting straight from the tv is yes dangerous but it rarely happens, if it does (fighting at least) injury is small.

Young people who become interested in magic(k) will learn by reading from books and from web sites. Some will also ask advice from people who do know what they are doing.

The young ones are safe, resect them for trying to find out more about there true selves and most of all believe in them.

lucydru
 
I don't think Buffy and its ilk is particularly harmful (I'm that much of a firm believer in magick to think they're going to summon Beelzebub up or summat), just annoying when it comes to the formation of young kid's ideas of Forteana. It's irritating when young kids believe what they see on Buffy as a representation of "real" magick.

Saying that, it could be said with any sci fi, fantasy, or horror series in TV history. It's just Buffy seems to have an section of the audience that believe many of its elements to be "real".
 
Magic Hamster

Evilsprout said:
Saying that, it could be said with any sci fi, fantasy, or horror series in TV history. It's just Buffy seems to have an section of the audience that believe many of its elements to be "real".
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It's not just sci-fi & horror, though, it's any work of TV fiction of which our hamster-faced heroine Buffy represents just one. I remember a questionnaire that was done some time ago which said that something like 1 in 25 adults believed that the events depicted in Eastenders or Coronation St. (can't recall which) were real. (They didn't do Buffy - I don't think it was on then) When a character dies in a soap opera, hundreds of people actually send wreathes and messages of commiseration to the studios. I think it was the same survey that showed that 9% of inner city kids between 9 and 13 years old didn't know who Jesus Christ was.
 
Isn't one of the things that's made BtVS so popular the fact that it plays with the ludicrous nature of the events it depicts, in a very knowing, post-modern way? It knows that its fiction, and outrageously far-fetched. In effect, its saying 'yes, you're right, viewer, if you think about this for two minutes, its REALLY SILLY!

At least thats how the people I know who delight in it read it.

This being so, far from poisoning young minds with regard to Magic(k)(TM ), it seems to me its dealing with it in quite an appropriate fashion!
 
I dont think that BTVS is particularly harmful to teenagers, even if it does spark their interest in Wicca/Paganism. If it sparks their interest, all the better. True enough that the "magick" they portay on the show is exceedingly dramatized, but if shows like this open up kids minds to say "hey, maybe its not so bad as everyone always says it is," and it makes them want to look into it deeper, and actually learn what its really all about, then it's definitely a positive thing.

So many people are so close-minded, and even now, say things are soo wrong and soo evil without even knowing anything about it at all. Most teens arent going to start something that they see straight off TV, but instead, look into it and see what its really about. In our society still, there's the stigma to the word "witch," which is, in turn, also attributed to "wicca" or "wiccan." This is ingrained [sp?] into us from a very young age, with the negative stereotypes only aiding it. For kids to see that its not 'evil' as they've been raised to believe, is an excellent way of getting kids to accept others, even though they may be different.

Acceptance of others and others' beliefs is something that, in the 21st century, you'd think we'd have, but unfortunately, we're not all quite there yet. At many (I'm not going to say all, because I've obviously not been to all of them) Christian churches, they insist that their way is the only way and that all others are evil and wrong or blasphemous etc, and yet try to preach acceptance and brotherhood. Is this really teaching acceptance? what about the evangelism, and getting people to convert because their way is "wrong"? is this acceptance? what is this teaching the kids?Teaching children that people who arent the same as them need to change to be like them, is, in essence, teaching kids to not accept people who are different, and to alienate them. How is teaching inacceptance of a difference in beliefs any different than teaching inacceptance of a difference in race or nationality?

Even though the "wicca" portrayed on shows like Buffy and Charmed is extremely over dramatized, showing that its not evil and bad is an excellent thing for kids to see. The characters on these shows are positive figures, rather than negative, and it shows kids that its not so bad, opening up their minds to the idea that maybe they're not wrong or evil, and that maybe it's just as good natured as their own religion, even though its different.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that anyone else's personal beliefs are wrong-- everyone has a right to his or her own beliefs, but I think that even though we should share our beliefs with others, its a better thing to keep an open mind, and just be like "okay, your beliefs are different than mine, but that's okay, and it doesnt make either of us wrong."

-lostgirl
 
Am I the only person in this thread who doesn't believe that any of the things that are mentioned are possible? I don't believe in magic(k), I don't believe in ghosts, I don't belive in Vampires, and I don't believe in realistic robot Buffys, either. Has there ever been any scientific proof of magic? Has there ever, once, been some performed under laboritory conditions? Or is it one of those things where the lab conditions themselves would make the performing of magic impossible?

I also really, really don't believe in heavy metal inspiring murders (in fact there is a large amount of evidence to the contrary).
 
trollface said:
Has there ever been any scientific proof of magic?
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It depends what you call magic. If you call it teleportation, faster-than-light travel, travel into parallel dimensions and dematerialisation then yes, quantum mechanics has proven the existence of all of these things....
 
Er...don't actually watch Buffy or have an opinion either way on Wicca, etc., but something I thought I'd get off my chest in relation to this:
This here vampire-fandom that seems to lead a twilight (no pun intended) existence as a subset of the whole Goth scene. It really disturbs me, not because I think it's wrong or evil or dangerous (although you hear these (urban legends?) about teenage "vampire cults" murdering people in America), but because I think it's (don't want to offend or sound un-Fortean here) really f*cking silly. I mean, I saw these US teens on Ricki Lake once, going on about how cool it is to be a "lapdog of Satan" (to quote _From Dusk Till Dawn_) and I thought, do these people know anything about Eastern European folklore? As far as I remember, folkloric vampires are filthy, pestilent, have halitosis, look (as you'd expect) like walking corpses, and spend much of their time attacking farm animals etc. rather than people. It's some sort of plague-anxiety legend, connected somehow to the Black Death, as far as I know (in actual legend, vampirism seems to occur in "epidemics", like a disease, just underlining the plague metaphor).
Anyway....
 
PiltdownMan said:
[...] although you hear these (urban legends?) about teenage "vampire cults" murdering people in America
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Yup, they are urban legends, and not true.

and I thought, do these people know anything about Eastern European folklore?
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You shouldn't let mere facts get in the way of an unhealthy obsession, now, should you?

As far as I remember, folkloric vampires are filthy, pestilent, have halitosis, look (as you'd expect) like walking corpses[...]
Click to expand...

Sounds like a teenager to me.
 
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