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Business / Corporate Complicity In The Holocaust

"Hiroshima and Nagasaki"

Which brought the war to an end.
Better 150,000 Japanese deaths than at least that number of allied troops, fighting island by island to defeat such an fanatic and indescribably evil enemy.

Do some research on the atrocities perpetrated by the Japs, from the rape of Nanking onwards, and you may start to reevaluate where your sympathies ought to lie.
The greatest crime was that Hirohito was not executed for his crimes, which are certainly up there with Hitler's and Stalin's.
 
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And you have carefully avoided the subject (again).
 
Plus you do not appear to know why Hirohito was not executed.
 
INT21 said:
Not at all.

It's just part of history. We move on.

How any American companies would need to be blackballed if every one of them who participated in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Building the planes, the bombs the support etc) destruction and in the incineration of hundreds of thousands of civilians. ?
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The US made a calculation that dropping the A-bombs and forcing the Japanese surrender would actually save lives, both Allies and Japanese. That seems to me quite different to aiding and abetting deliberate genocide.

The bombing of civilians is a different moral issue, but as both sides did it it's really a debate for the future conduct of wars rather than condemning people with hindsight.
 
Agreed, but this thread is about businesses that were involved in the production of materials used.

Hence my reference to the obvious fact that some companies on the allied side are also still in business today.

And one should consider that, some day, some nation may consider the complete annihilation of a few of our cities a reasonable price to pay for a victory. That is a very real possibility.
 
INT21 said:
I understood that IBM has always been the sole supplier of cards for their machines. That is how the money kept coming in.
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Nope - at least not by the time WW2 broke out.

Both IBM and Remington Rand tied punched card purchases to machine leases, a violation of the 1914 Clayton Antitrust Act. In 1932, the US government took both to court on this issue. Remington Rand settled quickly. IBM viewed its business as providing a service and that the cards were part of the machine. IBM fought all the way to the Supreme Court and lost in 1936; the court ruled that IBM could only set card specifications.
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SOURCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card

I don't know whether, or for how long, the Germans continued to source their punch cards from IBM following IBM's loss of their exclusive franchise to sell the cards.
 
I doubt a small thing like patent would have stopped them for very long.
 
Cochise said:
The US made a calculation that dropping the A-bombs and forcing the Japanese surrender would actually save lives, both Allies and Japanese. That seems to me quite different to aiding and abetting deliberate genocide.

The bombing of civilians is a different moral issue, but as both sides did it it's really a debate for the future conduct of wars rather than condemning people with hindsight.
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It also kept Russia out of the pacific theater, after victory in Europe Russia started sending troops east in the hope that they could grab a big piece of main land japan.
 
tuco said:
It also kept Russia out of the pacific theater, after victory in Europe Russia started sending troops east in the hope that they could grab a big piece of main land japan.
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It also demonstrated to Stalin that the US had mastered the technology and was capable of manufacturing and delivering multiple examples.
blessmycottonsocks said:
the Japs
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You know we don't still have to use the same language as 70 years ago, don't you?
 
Mythopoeika said:
Yes and yes!
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Surely the responsibility of what a company does lies with the people who are running it at any chosen moment.

To not buy a product today because of very questionable morality due to decisions made in boardrooms by small groups of people 70 odd years ago... well, that's down to personal choice.

It's important to know about these past associations but for me it's what a company gets up to today that's really important.
 
pandacracker said:
Surely the responsibility of what a company does lies with the people who are running it at any chosen moment.

To not buy a product today because of very questionable morality due to decisions made in boardrooms by small groups of people 70 odd years ago... well, that's down to personal choice.

It's important to know about these past associations but for me it's what a company gets up to today that's really important.
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It's an interesting question, this. Perhaps a company only exists today due to profits from deals made with dubious regimes in the past.

The parallel that springs to my mind is the conclusions drawn from medical experiments conducted on concentration camp inmates. Doctors today refuse to use any of the findings, because the methods were so unethical. In this case, the ends do not remotely justify the means.

Can anyone argue that medicine is a less important endeavour than making money? If not, why would we forgive companies their unethical dealings?

And all of that said, the only company which I actively boycott is Nestle. (I'm discounting fast food companies on the grounds that I wouldn't otherwise patronise them anyway...)
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
"Hiroshima and Nagasaki"

Which brought the war to an end.
Better 150,000 Japanese deaths than at least that number of allied troops, fighting island by island to defeat such an fanatic...enemy.
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Okinawa was the stepping stone from which the US would launch Operation Downfall, the invasion of the Japanese home islands. The Japs knew this.

It took a massive invasion force, seven weeks of brutal combat and over 107,000 dead (95,000 of them Japs) to take a 466 square mile island.

Okinawa is roughly as far from Tokyo as London is from the Orkneys, yet the IJA defended it with great determination and savagery. How do we think that they would have reacted when Allied troops set foot on the sacred homelands?

“Approximately 500,000 Purple Heart medals (awarded to those wounded or killed while serving with the US military) were manufactured in anticipation of the invasion.”

The Joint Chiefs of Staff casualty estimates for the two phases of Operation Downfall (US/Allied casualties alone):

Operation Olympic Wounded: 347,000
Operation Olympic Dead/Missing: 109,000

Operation Coronet Wounded: 744,000
Operation Coronet Dead/Missing: 158,000

TOTAL: 1,200,000

http://www.operationolympic.com/p1_casualties.php

maximus otter
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
I guess this thread raises the question that, should companies like Volkswagen, BMW, Nestlé, Siemens, Hugo Boss and all the others in the hall of shame be cursed and shunned forever?
Are we, as consumers, being complicit in whitewashing their tarnished legacies by buying their products?
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You would have to include Rolls Royce and Bentley in that list as well though being German owned with BMW engines. The same BMW that produced the 42 litre engine that powered the Focke Wulf 190 which is a bit silly imo. You can't blame today's Germans for the sins of their grandparents and great grand parents
 
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Min Bannister said:
Yeah, unfortunately some British people who themselves weren't even born at the time think you can. :rolleyes:
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I don't think we should be blaming the current Germans for what their forefathers did, no. But that hardly seems to be the general principle people are adopting with regard to other issues such as slavery and empire. If you are going to get upset about the one then it is inconsistent not to to be upset by the other.

Resenting organisations that were involved, well that's a matter of degree, and in my case tied up with economic and other ideas of, i suppose 'fairness'. I'd never by a modern so-called Mini, but that's not just because they are made by BMW. In fact, and getting off topic, if I could I'd avoid virtually all multinationals, simply because I don't like the ethics behind them.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
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That was funny to start with then it just got weird.

Cochise said:
Resenting organisations that were involved, well that's a matter of degree, and in my case tied up with economic and other ideas of, i suppose 'fairness'. I'd never by a modern so-called Mini, but that's not just because they are made by BMW. In fact, and getting off topic, if I could I'd avoid virtually all multinationals, simply because I don't like the ethics behind them.
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I know what you mean and the chemical companies in particular make me feel a bit queasy but they really ought to have been boycotted then (or at least after) when it might have made a difference. Boycotting companies is quite a personal thing and I avoid several myself but due to the way multinationals work, it is such a rabbithole to try and make it a proper crusade. As you say, if you are going to get upset about one thing, you have to get upset about them all and then there is nothing left but to go totally off grid where no-one can tell you are boycotting anything anyway as you can't tell them all about it.:crazy:

I personally find it quite a curiosity that many of these companies are still in business but perhaps it is not so surprising. A big military/governmental contract, especially during a time of war must have been excellent for business. They survived and the ones that refused the contracts did not.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
I guess this thread raises the question that, should companies like Volkswagen, BMW, Nestlé, Siemens, Hugo Boss and all the others in the hall of shame be cursed and shunned forever?
Are we, as consumers, being complicit in whitewashing their tarnished legacies by buying their products?
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I tend to judge companies who had dodgy pasts on how they treat it now. If they have paid their dues, admitted it was wrong and done what they can do show this, I would be more willing to forgive. Companies that refuse to admit their part in past evil doings are more likely to end up on my evil scum list. Nestle definitely falls under this category because of their ongoing evil deeds.
 
Little_grey_lady said:
I tend to judge companies who had dodgy pasts on how they treat it now. If they have paid their dues, admitted it was wrong and done what they can do show this, I would be more willing to forgive. Companies that refuse to admit their part in past evil doings are more likely to end up on my evil scum list. Nestle definitely falls under this category because of their ongoing evil deeds.
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I must admit that, before participating in this thread, I had no idea that Nestlé had such a sinister past (and indeed present) .
So, much kudos to Cochise, Krepostnoi and you for making me look at my Nespresso machine and coffee pods in a very different light.
I knew that BMW and VW had whole catacombs of skeletons in their cupboards, but was utterly unaware of Nestlé's culpability.
 
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I thought Nestle was Swiss. Ah well, can't win them all.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
It is.
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As is Sulzer. But by my own personal profit-and-loss scale i can cope with their reaction.

From Wikipedia:

Out of political and personal considerations, Sulzer decided to sell its subsidiaries in Germany by the beginning of the war.[4]

Sulzer was blacklisted by the Allies during World War II due to an increase in trade with Axis countries. Sulzer refused to sign an agreement to limit the future sale of marine diesel engines to the Axis countries, and was blacklisted by the Allies as a result.
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I presume from this they were not involved in the Holocaust, and were blacklisted because of supplying engines for submarines. Which all of the combatants with a coast used.
 
With regard to von Braun, I think the trial of Albert Speer informed many a subsequent effort to get the scientists gathered up the allies in the closing stages and afterwards in front of a court. Many saw it as a bit pointless, and after the fact.

But if you look at what we now know, there were many SS officers coopted to stay behind in post war Germany to act as agents and agitators against Soviet rule. These were often the worst of the worst, in terms of their war records. Few were ever charged for their actions.

Unfortunately, the allies showed themselves, on many occasions, to be uninterested in justice to further their strategic aims.
 
Ascalon said:
With regard to von Braun, I think the trial of Albert Speer informed many a subsequent effort to get the scientists gathered up the allies in the closing stages and afterwards in front of a court. Many saw it as a bit pointless, and after the fact.

But if you look at what we now know, there were many SS officers coopted to stay behind in post war Germany to act as agents and agitators against Soviet rule. These were often the worst of the worst, in terms of their war records. Few were ever charged for their actions.

Unfortunately, the allies showed themselves, on many occasions, to be uninterested in justice to further their strategic aims.
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And of course significant numbers of Nazi war criminals lived out long and presumably reasonably happy lives in Argentina and other like-minded fascist states, who welcomed them with open legs. I know Mossad agents managed to track down some of the worst offenders though, so one can but hope that the others, until the end of their days, would shit themselves whenever the doorbell rang.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
And of course significant numbers of Nazi war criminals lived out long and presumably reasonably happy lives in Argentina and other like-minded fascist states, who welcomed them with open legs. I know Mossad agents managed to track down some of the worst offenders though, so one can but hope that the others, until the end of their days, would shit themselves whenever the doorbell rang.
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It looks as if Mengele drowned in 1979 but he might have faked that. Simon Wiesenthal believed that he was still alive in 1985. A DNA test suggests that the corpse of the drowned man was Mengele. Or maybe it was his twin ...
 
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