Celtic Myths & Legends

[oll_lewis]

Iron Age cultures across Western Europe were not some homogneous lump thinking and feeling the same thing. Whilst it's true they shared some common interests and ideas (as if the case with the US and UK today), this doesn't mean that they shared the same outlook on a variety of subjects. Hence, the idea of 'Celtic' culture is defunct. One might as well say that culture in the UK is ostensibly American, (which is obviously not true). Don't make the same mistakes that some modern pagan schools have made about their imagined forbears.

I really don't see what this has celtic mythology, and I do find the sugestion that the Roman historans were all lieing about the shared celtic culture strange in the extreame.

I must also point out that a heck of a lot is known about the Celts of England and Wales from the Romans and belive it or not there is this thing called achaeology...

if anyone wants to know real facts about the celts look at this site http://www.roman-britain.org/tribes.htm

 

[Jerry_B]

Lord_Flashheart - I wasn't saying that the Roman sources were lying, etc.. All I'm saying was that it would be an error to think that a very large area of Western Europe had one homogenous culture, as some sort of Celtic super-state.

 

[stonedog3]

When I was doing my degree (admittedly many moons ago!) we used the uk tribes/cultures/peoples of this period as an eg of how the archeological evidence and the historical evidence reinforce and contradict each other.

I'd read the roman historical sources in the same way as I'd read much later european takes on, say, africa. A necessary attempt to rationalise and report on a huge and confusing situation, complete with political bias etc etc etc.

Maybe compare and contrast the roman view of druids, the archeological view of druids and the current popular view of druids?

It has to do with celtic myth because to define a particular set of myths/legends/stories/whatever as celtic is a bit like lumping pharonic egypt, great zimbabwe and the yoruba together as african.

Completely true but it doesn't really get you anywhere.

Personally I'm interested in the Old Mysterious and Eldritch use of the word celtic - what humans seem to need to create and use.

Kath

Kath

 

[stu neville]

All I'm saying was that it would be an error to think that a very large area of Western Europe had one homogenous culture, as some sort of Celtic super-state.

Exactly - give you an example, Flash - Carole, JerryB, Ethelred and I are all English. Jerry and I both come from the West Country, whereas Ethelred and Carole come from the North East - culturally and (in particular) linguistically there will be differences (quite minor owing to mass media, communication, etc, but a couple of thousand years ago the differences would have been far more pronounced). Point is, we're all still English, as the Celts were all Celtic, but within that umbrella title there were a diverse a set of cultures (which is why Welsh, Cornish and Breton have more similarities of structure with one another than they do with Manx, Gaelic and Erse - all Celtic languages, with a common base, but as distinct from one another as Modern French and Italian).

Side-bar: Richard Burton, whilst appearing on Broadway, was pursued into the lobby of the Waldorf-Astoria by a burly man in his forties who kept saying, in a thick Brooklyn accent, "Mr Burton! Mr Burton! You and me is the same! My name's MacDonald (or similar), which makes me a Selt! You and me are both Selts!" To which Burton riposted "No. I am a Selt. You, sir, are a Sunt."

.

 

[rynner2]

To which Burton riposted "No. I am a Selt. You, sir, are a Sunt."

I must admit I get annoyed by the sports news every time they mention Glasgow Seltic!

The Celtic languages have no soft 'c' - it is always pronounced as 'k'.

 

[stonedog3]

the footie club is def seltic.... thereby /proving/ it has zip to do with the celts! LOL

Kath

 

[Anonymous]

I must admit I get annoyed by the sports news every time they mention Glasgow Seltic!

The Celtic languages have no soft 'c' - it is always pronounced as 'k'.

Definitely, it's always been 'Glasgow Seltic.'

Celt (not 'Glasgow Celtic'), can also be spelled, kelt.

And a celt, pronounced kelt, is also a type of stone, or metal chisel, or axe .

 

[Jerry_B]

Must remember that the next time I go to Sardiff...

 

[rynner2]

I know the footie club is pronounced Seltic. The word Celtic presumably reflects what the club considers to be its roots, but mispronouncing it just totally undermines the idea!

 

[Anonymous]

Anyone know anything about acnient celtic myths and legends? Also does anyone have any ideas, theories, etc on where these 'stories' originated?

Ole'Scratch was a dark figure who comes knocking at your door when death comes. Watch out for 3 knocks at your door.

Ole'Scratch is also a mythical figure who can be seen at anytime,especially,when evil abounds. He carries away the children and sends death upon those who pursue wrongdoing.

Our Easter eggs and decor come from the Pagans. Churches in the Southern U.S.still hold Sunrise services on the claimed Easter holiday. Mixed with Christianity many of the ancient Celtic beliefs are practiced in ignorance around the world including the Southern U.S. Prior to any given Easter in the Spring (of course)
the Churches here begin their usual invitations and post it on their church marques: "Come to Sunrise Services". And it is always on a Sunday morning around 5:30 or 6:00 am. The mix comes in the form of the rhetoric the minister's give: i.e. "The sunrise services represent the resurrection of Christ",they say. Little do they know the connection of worshiping the Sun God of ancient
times in the U.K.,and their practice.

Christmas on Dec.25 is Pagan and of the Celts.
The shortest day of the year,and in the dead of the winter Solstice.

Evergreens of all types: Pines,Firs,Cedars,Sequoias,and other greens that never turn color,regardless the weather. Evergreens scattered around the house or other places represent the promise that life will again return.
Ironic, how the season associated with death is now practiced in the form of Christmas and Everlasting Life. Strange but True.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: Celtic Myths & Legends

Ole'Scratch was a dark figure who comes knocking at your door when death comes. Watch out for 3 knocks at your door.

Ole'Scratch is also a mythical figure who can be seen at anytime,especially,when evil abounds. He carries away the children and sends death upon those who pursue wrongdoing.

Our Easter eggs and decor come from the Pagans. Churches in the Southern U.S.still hold Sunrise services on the claimed Easter holiday. Mixed with Christianity many of the ancient Celtic beliefs are practiced in ignorance around the world including the Southern U.S. Prior to any given Easter in the Spring (of course)
the Churches here begin their usual invitations and post it on their church marques: "Come to Sunrise Services". And it is always on a Sunday morning around 5:30 or 6:00 am. The mix comes in the form of the rhetoric the minister's give: i.e. "The sunrise services represent the resurrection of Christ",they say. Little do they know the connection of worshiping the Sun God of ancient
times in the U.K.,and their practice.

Christmas on Dec.25 is Pagan and of the Celts.
The shortest day of the year,and in the dead of the winter Solstice.

Evergreens of all types: Pines,Firs,Cedars,Sequoias,and other greens that never turn color,regardless the weather. Evergreens scattered around the house or other places represent the promise that life will again return.
Ironic, how the season associated with death is now practiced in the form of Christmas and Everlasting Life. Strange but True.

Much of this must have come from the time of Christian persecution,when most went underground with their Christian beliefs i.e. the symbol of the fish, instead of the cross and so on.

 

[Jerry_B]

The 25th of December isn't 'Celtic' in anyway, nor does it have it's origin in the UK, as a pagan religious event. Instead, it comes from the Middle East, via the Romans and the cult of Mithras. He was known to them as 'The Undefeated Sun' and the 25th was known as 'The birthday of the the undefeated sun' (in Latin, IIRC, 'Dies natali invicti solis'). Mithras shares some elements with Jesus (i.e. virgin birth). Greenery and plants as decoration on the 25th stems from Roman custom, as does anything to do with fire. The 25th is also the birthday of the god Attis, who also originates from the Middle East.

 

[Yithian]

Don't mistake the incorporation of Pagan deities, rituals and beliefs into early Christianity with Celtic legends myths and tales. As JerryB says, some will be middle eastern in origin, some northern african (including egyptian) others will belong to europe, but will not necessarily be Celtic.

 

[Jerry_B]

Forgot to mention - giving presents on Dec. 25th is also an old Roman custom.

 

[Anonymous]

You could try reading the Mabinogion.

I do not choose,nor wish to offend anyone in my postings, simply because I am American. I realize, I occupy a very young and currently very screwed up country,however I cannot deny my roots,or the inclusive traditions,that have been passed down to me,and very much a part of me. Old tales,myths,songs and folklore, etc. of my truly genuine Scotch/Irish and English heritage. Believe it, or not many American's roots are not from a mix of peoples. The Southern U.S.,especially in the Appalachian Mountains have not strayed from their old cultures,and traditions. We do not marry cousins or relatives just our own kind. Our dialects speak for itself. We have often been referred to as the gaelic,or those who are different among many other things, including derrogatory names. So be it! I look out my window at a chain of smaller mountains called the Dublin's,we say narry and yonder--reckon,kindly,dandy,cubbards for cabinets,
dowdy,highlands etc.to name a few. We do not fall forward we pitch forward. I also, am not suggesting that the culture of the Appalachian's is original. I know it is not. And a festival is held annually in tribute to the Emerald Isle.
But the culture is there me friend. Heard any country music, lately??? I cannot apologize for my roots, nor will I. It goes against the grain.
I do know a thing or two about the folklore from the old country.
How could I not??? with all the Grandmothers,g-fathers,aunts and uncles that pass it on. I know that the Celt's and Druids were considered the back to nature clan...The type ye see in the woods... the today tree huggers...
They saw(in ancient times) God in nature, so to speak. That is all that they knew. They worshiped the sun,because the sun gave life to crops and meant renewal. Simply put they worshiped nature,since nothing else was in place,and Christianity was yet unknown.It made perfect sense to them. What shall I say??? I'm only an American. Well, Hell cousin you need to jump in the lake! My name is Janet Johnston Lynch by the way.

 

[TheQuixote]

Ummm NetSlave I don't think anyone was referring to your roots when querying your posts.
Celtic mythology is a vast subject and a lot of Christian Celebrations encompass not only the Celtic Calendar which is; Imbolc- 1st Feb.
Beltane- 1st May.
Lugnasad- 1st May.
Samhain- 1st Nov.
and as JerryB and Caroline have both said, Roman and Middle Eastern 'older' religions.

Celts weren't just 'tree-huggers', they believed that trees held spirits, yes, but a lot of their religous worship is confused with other traditions such as the modern 'pagans' who hold Midsummer rituals at Stonehenge.

To post as you did, meant that people would stand to correct you, this is a forum after all.

Saturnalia is the Roman feasting period that the Christians replaced with Christmas and I'm not even going to try to explain the Gregorian Calendar and how it changes all the original dates that celebrations would have been held on, the 25th of December being the original birthday of Christ is far from accurate.

Another pagan tradition/tale is that Odin/Woden would ride across the sky distributing presents in his chariot in mid-winter. Christianity found it easier to convert this pagan God from the scandinavian pantheon into St. Nicholas who's saint day is the 6th of December who then delivered the gifts.

Your ancestors took the 'wisdom' of older traditions with them when they settled in the USA and as in Great Britain, the ancient traditions do filter down still, but very few would be able to tell you the original meanings. There are many books on the subject though and if you are interested in 'Celtic Mythology' rather than traditions, Caroline's suggestion of 'The Mabignion' is a good starting ground, and other's have also suggested books on this thread that you may like to check out.

 

[Jerry_B]

I know that the Celt's and Druids were considered the back to nature clan...The type ye see in the woods... the today tree huggers...[...]Simply put they worshiped nature,since nothing else was in place,and Christianity was yet unknown.

Well, it's not known if the druids or the 'celts' were indeed 'the back to nature clan' or worshipped nature in a way that was different to other cultures of the time. I think it would be an error to think that they are similar to today's 'tree huggers'. Such people don't carry out human sacrifice and do not have a distinct warrior subculture, for starters

 

[Breakfastologist]

A lot of british traditions have actually endured more strongly in parts of the US than they ever did over here. Many traditional songs that would have been completely lost were collected in the Appalachians and other areas of the eastern US and Nova Scotia. I live in south east England and I can think of nowhere which has so little connection with, or understanding of, it's own roots or traditions.

There is a thread here on the origins of the celtic folklore that we have access to now.

 

[Min Bannister]

I have to say I had always thought that the date for Christmas had come from the winter solstice as well, the fact that that now falls around 21st December just due to calander changes or the fact that our calander doesn't quite fit in with astronomical things.

And the human sacrifices I thought were made up by early Christians as a big smear campaign against the pagans.

Where did you find out about Mithras and stuff Jerry?

 

[Jerry_B]

And the human sacrifices I thought were made up by early Christians as a big smear campaign against the pagans.
Where did you find out about Mithras and stuff Jerry?

WRT human sacrifices - don't forget bog bodies - it's very likely that they are sacrifices of some sort.

As for Mithras, I've picked up info on various things about it over the years, here and there.

 

[Min Bannister]

Yes, I thought about bog bodies but it is kind of hard to tell with stuff that has happened before written memory. Perhaps they had just been very naughty boys?
It is like with monuments or earthworks that are uncovered by archaeologists, they can't really know what they are for so they call them "henges" and say they were probably for religious purposes. Which is why archaeology is both cool and frustrating.

I shall have to look out for info on Mithras.

 

[Jerry_B]

Well, even if the bog bodies aren't sacrifices, I think it would be unwise to pin the whole tree-hugging, sweetness and light thing onto what we call 'the Celts'. After all, there was a strongly distinct warrior tradition within their culture, and various tribes within 'Celtic' Europe showed themselves adept at waging war against each other and against foreign invaders.

WRT Mithras, he was also the god of the Roman legionairies - there is a temple dedicated to him at Hadrians' Wall. There are some fantastic Mithraic artefacts on display at the British Museum, that come from the Walbrook Mithraeum just down the road.

 

[Min Bannister]

Well, even if the bog bodies aren't sacrifices, I think it would be unwise to pin the whole tree-hugging, sweetness and light thing onto what we call 'the Celts'.

No I wouldn't do that! I just have a poor opinion of early and slightly later Christians, after all these are people who would condemn human sacrifice in local tribes and use such allegations (whether true or not) against them but then drown anyone thought to still be practicing pagan rituals.
Or at least to use that excuse to drown them. :hmph:

 

[Yithian]

Anyone know anything about acnient celtic myths and legends? Also does anyone have any ideas, theories, etc on where these 'stories' originated?

Was the post I was answering with the sentence "You could try reading the Mabinogion." It was simply a suggestion, not a criticism.

 

[Anonymous]

WRT human sacrifices - don't forget bog bodies - it's very likely that they are sacrifices of some sort.

And let's not forget the head-hunting. Very fond of collecting heads were certain Celts. According to many of the tales, anyway. And what about those archeologists who keep popping up waving bone shards that they interpret as evidence of (possibly ritual) cannibalism in Ireland as late as -IIRC- the early Roman period?

 

[Jerry_B]

No I wouldn't do that! I just have a poor opinion of early and slightly later Christians, after all these are people who would condemn human sacrifice in local tribes and use such allegations (whether true or not) against them but then drown anyone thought to still be practicing pagan rituals.
Or at least to use that excuse to drown them. :hmph:

The pre-Christian Romans were just as adverse to such things - in fact, they had a similar dim view of early Christianity because it's identification with the body and blood of Christ in their rituals, etc..

WRT the 'celts' and heads - yes, it's said that they kept the heads of vanquished foes preserved and showed them proudly to any visitors.

 

[Yithian]

I think we should have some kind of demarkation between myths, legends and tales OF the Celts, and myths, legends and tales ABOUT the Celts.

 

[Anonymous]

The pre-Christian Romans were just as adverse to such things - in fact, they had a similar dim view of early Christianity because it's identification with the body and blood of Christ in their rituals, etc..

Yeah! Why waste perfectly good amphitheater, or crucifixion fodder? :hmph:

Blood sacrifices aren't always made to Gods, spirits, or demons. Sometimes there made to enforce authority, pursue ambitions and power, or for entertainment purposes.

I wonder how many potential car bombs see themselves, or their victims, as potentially blasphemous human blood sacrifices?

 

[Anonymous]

WRT the 'celts' and heads - yes, it's said that they kept the heads of vanquished foes preserved and showed them proudly to any visitors.

Indeed, IIRC the taking of an enemy's head was a mark of respect for the fallen. So I've read.

 

[Breakfastologist]

Or sometimes taking a friends head was a good way to keep them involved in the conversation long after they had lost it.

Edit: The head, I mean. Lost the head.