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Christianity - A Failing Religion?

lopaka said:
Not to make sweeping generalizations, or anything, right?
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Those who take the trouble to learn about the teachings and history that a religion has would, quite rightly, understand that what I wrote WAS a sweeping statement. But i don't think it's inaccurate with regard to the 'Failing Religion' question. Your 'regular joe' will likely consider what he sees and hears in the media, thus, for most, it is how i suggested - scandal, perversions, lies and irrelevance.

Whether this is the fault of the Church or the media, i don't know - i would imagine neither are blameless, but it is certainly a human problem.
 
Buddhism and Taoism, though not as dependent on the written word, have problems of relevance.
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I really fail to see how. Buddhism is 100% relevant for me, at all times. There's still a lot of misunderstanding of it in the west, mainly due to it having been known about here for only the past 100 years or so, and also due to people trying to force it into the round hole of Western philosophical thought when it's really a square peg.
 
I would agree with Robot there, but for me the Dao answers more of the 'big' questions, and allows for an entirely irreverent sense of humour :)
 
No offence Hugo - but you need to go WAY deeper on the christian history. Constantine was but one in a LONG line of manipulators. King James, anyone? Not only did he provide a sever rewrite, he was also responsible for the mass destruction of many previous latin and greek bibles. And what about the spanish inquisition? What about the thousands of tribals converted, relics destroyed, scrolls burned, etc. etc. There are countless examples of political machinations in the name of christianity. Early on, it became a very effective smokescreen for warmongers and domain expansion.
 
Erm, Contantine was the first big one, the council of Alexandria started the trend of destroying document's that didn't fit, TBH King James was something of a Johnny-come-lately, who other than supression of 'errant' texts and some interesting alterations in the texts, didn't really alter the basic marketing strategy set up by Constantine. Admittedly the sales methods had been altered by successive Catholic Popes and Missionaries, in ways that made the Nazis look like boyscouts when it came to mass extermination (allowing for the fact that they didn't use factory methods, but each one was crafted by hand)

Doesn't take a lot of depth, since its all pretty well documented. Problem is most folks don't read...

However, how does this overly contribute to a decline in 'organised' Christianity? There does seem to be a concomitant growth in a Christian Philosophy where people practice the tenets of christianity without the personal saviour superstitious nonsense. Unfortunately, the personal saviour stuff is the type that gets the most press...
 
I was addressing your "reasonably shallow agreement" that 90% of christianity was nothing but mind control and politics. I dont see why it would need to be a shallow agreement considering the massive bulk of evidence, and the 2000 years of its execution.

As far as failing or not - I could care less, but the core principals of willful ignorance and hypocracy will live on regardless of the outside trappings. Its a simple exploit of human nature.
 
I meant it didn't take a huge amount of mentation to agree with it, due to the bulk of evidence, from Constantine forward, that it is largely politics and mind control.

Since the thread is about the fall of Christianity(organised) and whether its happening or not, I thought you were making an abstruse point. Sorry, for the confusion. If it does fail, it will doubtless be replaced by an organised mass relgion equally bereft of spirituality and equally obsessed by material and worldly Empire as the first (RC) church was, and subsequent ones largely have been unto the present day of Pat thingummy and his jack-booted. born again, Steptford-Wifed ilk.

[edit] one day I'll get the punctuation at least close to right on the first attempt....
 
I've heard of "Rice Bowl Christians," But This T

BBC News Online: Sweet temptation back to church
Sunday, 26 September, 2004

The Church of England is launching a pilot scheme to attract people back to church - by offering a bar of chocolate to every worshipper.

The aim of the "Back to Church Sunday" scheme is to attract people who have given up attending to return.

The campaign focuses on those over the age of 50 who, the church says, have shown the biggest drop in attendance.

Up to 70,000 invitations have been sent out to former church goers in Manchester.

Sunday's services will have a harvest festival or thanks giving theme and goodie bags with bars of chocolate will be handed out.

The Church of England wants to see greater flexibility with more services taking place in the week.

It is also asking people who have given up the church to suggest what might encourage them back.

The campaign is being studied by researchers at The University of Wolverhampton, to find out how effective it is.
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:rofl:
 
Not going to work, is it? :rolleyes:
 
Mythopoeika said:
Not going to work, is it? :rolleyes:
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These days you're going to get a lot of people demanding trade and environmentally friendly varieties, as well as carob and sugar free options for those allergic, or with diabetes.

Still more will be complaining about the CofE encouraging unhealthy eating practices.

:D
 
Absolutely. A thought about diabetics occurred to me too (I'm type 2 diabetic myself).
 
I'm not so sure that Christianity is dying. Some denominations may be losing popularity but I think that Christianity as a whole is as strong as ever.

For the past month I've been attending Sunday Mass at a local catholic church and bible classes. Most of the time I feel like a big fat fraud because I don't share the belief that Jesus is my saviour. The church is always packed out and lively. ;) Every week I leave feeling uplifted.
The people who lead the bible study group call themselves catechists and they are surprisingly a non-scary bunch of people. They are deeply sincere in their beliefs with no hint of a superiority complex. I'm sure they know what a fraud I am but they don't seem to mind. :eek:
 
The campaign focuses on those over the age of 50 who, the church says, have shown the biggest drop in attendance.
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every one who goes to my Dads chapel is over 50.

The way he speaks they sound a real sad bunch. I would not want to be associated with them.
 
Homo Aves said:
every one who goes to my Dads chapel is over 50.
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Yes, I noticed the same curious wording in the original article myself. i'm not sure if one is supposed to infer that that the under-50 crowd never went in the first place so couldn't show a large attendence drop-off?

Of course the demographics in the two countries aren't exactly the same, but many of the mainline Protestant denominations in the US, particularly those in *older* (using the term loosely) parts of cities and towns are facing some rather vexing questions of how they need to change or adapt to meet the changing population to remain relevant and in some cases, simply keep the doors open.

And as rdiculous and/or superficial as it sounds, the first task at times is merely getting people in the front door in the first place. So services on Saturday afternoon or evenings or Wednesday night or even handing out chocolate ain't going to cause a spiritual awakening in anyone's life, but I can see where they're coming from, despite that it does leave them wide-open to punchlines ("Free toaster-oven with every membership!" ;) ).
 
My Dad never had any spiritual awakening, he does it to please his wife. (and so say improve the afterlife...Im not going there!!)
 
Shades of the legend of W. C. Fields, there H.A.

Fields died on Christmas Day, 1946, at age 67. A few days before Fields passed away, close friend Thomas Mitchell visited Fields, finding the dying, self-avowed agnostic thumbing through a Bible. Mitchell asked what he, of all people, was doing looking at the Bible. Fields replied, "Looking for loopholes."
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Back to church Sunday

I don't get it.:confused:

A couple of questions/points:

- Why would the church want to bribe people into attending church?

- It seems that with this campaign they have resigned themselves to the fact that they are no longer able to attract younger worshipers.

- I wonder if they know WHY the older worshippers are not attending in such numbers.

- Is this more about economics than saving people?

The church are, in my opinion, attempting to use tried and tested marketing tactics in order to attract new/lapsed worshipers back to the pews. THIS WILL NOT WORK, primarily because they are 'discounting' or 'incentivising' something as personal and important as faith. People will attend church because of a chocolate bar, not because of the messages, lessons and comfort that can (potentialy) be taken from a good church service.
 
In some respects, improved and increasingly secular education could be part of the reduction of uptake on the part of younger members, and persistent attempts to make the church seem 'relevant' and 'modern' alienates the older folk and just embarrasses the younger ones!

The educational part of it is that one can begin to see myths and wholesale inaccuracies. In the end, you either have faith in the idea, but not the church, which means you don't need to attend unless you like to. OR you leave your critical faculties at the door, which is something I have to do to attend the various ecclesiastical events of one of my college buddies, or yet another baptismal service....
 
It is probably difficult to define whether Christianity is a failing religion for precisely those reasons Hugo. I think many people may have taken the basic teachings as their guide in life but eschewed the obvious clap-trap of the organised church and its unquestioning belief in the super-natural. I see that it may be difficult for some to split a belief in the teachings of Jesus from the being raised from the dead stories but I think it is what a lot of people do these days. Call me cherry-picking if you like but I think it accounts for falling numbers on the pews alongside an increase in the numbers of people who say they have a belief.
 
Doesn't bode well for them church leader types does it?:( .
improved and increasingly secular education could be part of the reduction of uptake on the part of younger members
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hmmm...
...The more knowledgeable about the world we are, the less likely we are to go to church.
Does going to church have any value and relevance in society today?, apart from ,obviously, Christenings and Weddings...oh and chocolate bars;)
 
For some reason, THIS

Hugo Cornwall said:
In some respects, improved and increasingly secular education could be part of the reduction of uptake on the part of younger members, and persistent attempts to make the church seem 'relevant' and 'modern' alienates the older folk and just embarrasses the younger ones!
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Brought to my mind this:



"The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show"
814 4F12
Original Airdate: 2/09/97

To save the moribund Itchy & Scratchy Show, the producers do extensive market testing to determine exactly how to make the show funnier and more relevant to today's cartoon-watching audience. They decide that a new character, a crazy, hip-hop surfer dog named Poochie is just what the show needs. It falls on Homer Simpson to breathe life into Poochie by supplying him was a voice for his funky catchphrases. Poochie does not go over well with Itchy & Scratchy's fan base and Homer is heartbroken when he finds himself on the verge of being fired. As an act of defiance, Homer rewrites the lines of Poochie's final episode so that the character can live on, but the producers wind up re-cutting the show to kill the wisecracking dog off.

Guest Star: Alex Rocco as Roger Meyers, Jr

:eek!!!!: :p ;)
 
Well, if the church would pay my choc-of-the-month club subscription I might consider attending...

Cadburys alone wont do it.

And on a related note, why is Islam an up and comming religion in this country?

Is it because a lot of the mosque goers are more hip?

And they dont interfere with my car boot attendance??
 
Homo Aves said:
And on a related note, why is Islam an up and comming religion in this country?

Is it because a lot of the mosque goers are more hip?

And they dont interfere with my car boot attendance??
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It's possibly something to do with the massive influx of muslims into this country. And, of course they try to convert as many people as they can, just like the Christians.
Demographics, more than hipness.
 
Two pointettes:

I often heard that Islam is supposed to be a fast growing faith in the UK, but when I was there I saw very little actual evidence of it. It may be that it has become a more visible faith, as more mosques are built, community centres established, and so on.

A great big '?'.

Muslims trying to convert non-Muslims...actually, it tends not to be like that. The Islamic equivalent of evangelical networks tend to devote themselves to reclaiming lapsed practitioners and intensifying commitment within the community. Very little effort is devoted to actually spreading the religion.

As far as I know (and as always, I may be spectacularly wrong, and probably am) the two principle prosetylising religions are Christianity and Buddhism. The other faiths lack a consistent or strong tradition of missionary work.
 
Alexius, how does that fact (that islam is not a 'missionary' religion) sit alongside the professed aims of many muslim fundamentalists that they intend to make all the world Islamic - by whatever means? This view has been aired several times on the BBC by (admittedly extremist) muslims living in this country.
 
There certainly `seem` to be more converts. (compared to, say, 10 years ago) I suppose it like this big popularising of the new age...more are comming out of the closet.
 
The radical notion of an Islamic World is incoherent; often literally in the sense that the agenda makes no sense, and in a deeper sense of it being at odds with the traditions at the heart of the religion.

Certainly, a few advocate the forcible conversion of the world, but they have not the slightest notion as to how to achieve that - it is talk, and nothing else.

Furthermore, not all radicals take that line. Most have a conservative, rather than expansive, outlook.

The situation becomes clear when this is compared with the well-funded, systematic approach to conversion taken by Christian groups; there is no group remotely comparable to the Jesuits, Dominicans or Mormons.

To reiterate: Islam lacks a systematic tradition of evangelism, and those few who advocate it are unrepresentative and ineffective.
 
From the general tenor of this thread then it would appear that, despite being an evangelical religion, Christianity, if it wants to increase its numbers, would be better off taking a leaf out of Islam's book!
 
Islam generally spread through folk buying into the system when they came under an Islamic regime, or adoting it because it appealed to them.

Mass conversions have occurred (the first Turkish tribe to enter Islam apparently did so en bloc), but such instances are seldom found, and don't seem to have been the result of missonary work.

It has been suggested that individual Sufi had operated in India, Central Asia and Africa as missonaries, but on closer examination they seem to have rather brought about conversions through good works and general grooviness, rather than preaching. They also don't seem to have been the norm.

I guess the difference between Islam and Christianity lies in the latter asserting that it is the only path to salvation, while Muslims do acknowledge the validity of other faiths. I guess if you believe that those who do not adhere to your faith will perish in eternal fire, evangelism is an act of altruism.
 
I have seen old men standing on streets in places like Slough, Peterborough, Reading and parts of London, holding leaflets and copies of the Koran - ready to speak to anybody who is interested in Islam.
That seems like evangelism to me.
 
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