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Cleopatra

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KeyserXSoze

Gone But Not Forgotten
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Not just a saucy seductress in a rug, then. :D
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20041213/cleopatra.html
Cleopatra: Scientist, Not Seductress?
By Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News

Dec. 14, 2004 —Medieval Arabic texts suggest that Egyptian queen Cleopatra VII was a brilliant early mathematician, chemist and philosopher who wrote science books and met weekly with a team of scientific experts, according to a forthcoming book.

If historians can verify the medieval accounts, then the real Cleopatra likely bore little resemblance to the sexy seductress described by Greek and Roman scholars.

The book, "Egyptology: The Missing Millennium, Ancient Egypt in Medieval Arabic Writings," will be published in January by the University College London Press. For the book, author Okasha El Daly, an Egyptologist at the Petrie Museum of Egyptian Archaeology at University College London, found previously undiscovered medieval Arabic texts, translated them, and analyzed the texts based on his knowledge of early Egyptian history.

El Daly believes the Arab writers had access to first-hand accounts of Cleopatra, and perhaps even books authored by the famous queen herself. He thinks many of these texts no longer exist.

A library at Alexandria was said to have been burned in ancient times, possibly by a Muslim general who wished to destroy texts written before the Koran, according to Lisa Schwappach, curator of the Rosicrucian Egyptian Museum in California.

El Daly attributes the first Arab account of Cleopatra as a scientist to Al-Masudi, who died in 956 A.D. In his book "Muruj," Al-Masudi wrote of Cleopatra, "She was a sage, a philosopher who elevated the ranks of scholars and enjoyed their company. She also wrote books on medicine, charms and cosmetics, in addition to many other books ascribed to her which are known to those who practice medicine."

Medieval Arab writers such as Al-Bakri, Yaqut, Ibn Al-Ibri, Ibn Duqmaq and Al-Maqrizi also wrote how impressed they were by the queen's building projects. In fact, El Daly believes the earliest Arabic book to mention Cleopatra, a history of Egypt by the Egyptian bishop John of Nikiou, says the queen's building projects in Alexandria were "the like of which had never been seen before."

Yet another Arab historian, Ibn Ab Al-Hakam, credits one of the greatest structures of the ancient world, the Lighthouse of Alexandria, to Cleopatra.

In an interview with Radio Netherlands, El Daly said, "It was not just a lighthouse to guide ships, it was a magnificent telescope and it had a huge lens that could burn the oncoming ships of enemies that were going to attack Egypt."

Other early Arabic sources say Cleopatra created a recipe for a hair loss treatment and even studied gynecology. Writers Ibn Fatik and Ibn Usaybiah indicate that she conducted experiments to determine development stages of the human fetus in the womb.

"Above all, Cleopatra was an alchemist," El Daly told Discovery News. "She invented a tool to analyze liquids. Also, she was not working in a vacuum. There is ample evidence that many women in ancient Egypt served as doctors and were educated in the sciences."

He added, "All of our current knowledge about Cleopatra comes from enemy sources. The Romans were scornful of her and wanted to portray her as this little sexy thing."

El Daly pointed out that coins depicted her as actually being a very plain woman who was not a beauty "in any conventional sense."

Mary Lefkowitz, Andrew W. Mellon professor in the Humanities at the Department of Classical Studies at Wellesley College, disagreed that Romans negatively described Cleopatra.

"Actually, the Romans admired Cleopatra, although they were afraid of her power while it lasted," Lefkowitz told Discovery News.

Lefkowitz added that Cleopatra was a royal name in the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt, so the Arabic texts could have been referring to more than one queen with the same name.

Schwappach, however, believes it is possible that the most famous Cleopatra, Cleopatra VII, was more of a scientist than a seductress.

"That Cleopatra was at least concerned with medicine is evident from her support of the Temple of Hathor at Dendera," Schwappach told Discovery News. "Women, in particular, came to this temple for healing, both physical and mental."

She added, "Cleopatra was educated in the sciences, and no doubt encouraged scientists and discussed their findings and thoughts with them. She would have been an equal among them, not because of her social standing, but because of her intelligence and education."
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He added, "All of our current knowledge about Cleopatra comes from enemy sources. The Romans were scornful of her and wanted to portray her as this little sexy thing."
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Hmm, surely not all our knowledge?
I seem to remember, also, that there were contemporary documents using the idea that she had been usurped by the older 'mannish' Cleopatra to belittle Mark Anthony's wife for political reasons.

edited to add

Um. I've just realised that the 'contemporary document' I was thinking of was 'I Claudius'. My brain has clearly given up for winter.
 
They forgot to include she invented powered flight, the ATM system, an early version of the internet, she was a plasterer for a hobby, she could juggle six grown, living lions and her shoe-size was 3 1/2.

The further back in time you go, the easier it is to speculate on achievements.

She could however speak, read and write eight (IIRC) languages and was trained in many different arts. A smart cookie indeed!
 
Criticisms over depiction of Cleopatra in new documentary film.


Netflix launched the trailer for its documentary film “Queen Cleopatra”, directed by Jada Pinkett Smith, wife of the famous US star Will Smith, depicting Queen Cleopatra as a black woman, which former Egyptian Antiquities Minister Zahi Hawass described as “falsifying facts.”

The trailer was released by Netflix on Thursday. The film will start showing on the platform officially on May 10, where actress Adele James will play the role of the Queen.

Queen Cleopatra, the last ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty, was born in 69 BC and died in 30 BC in Alexandria.

Hawass commented on the movie, which sparked public criticism in Egypt for portraying the Ptolemaic Queen as black-skinned, saying: “This is completely fake. Cleopatra was Greek, meaning that she was blonde, not black.”

Hawass added that in recent years a trend emerged, led by black Americans and blacks in South America, claiming that the Egyptian civilization is of black origin. He stressed that such claims were completely false. The black civilization has no connection with the Egyptian civilization, Hawass said, pointing out that the black civilization did not rule Egypt except in the twenty-fifth dynasty during the era of the Kingdom of Kush, i.e. at the end of the ancient Egyptian civilization.

Hawass pointed out that Egyptian temples contain drawings of Egyptian kings. These sketches are depictions of men striking their enemies. The enemies are depicted as either African, Nubian, Libyan or Asian, and all of them look very different in nationality from the Egyptian kings.

“Netflix is trying to stir up confusion to spread false information that the origin of Egyptian civilization is black,” Hawass continued.

Hawass is calling to take a stand against Netflix platform.

https://egyptindependent.com/hawass-criticizes-depicting-cleopatra-as-black-in-netflix-film/

From Jason Colavito's Email Newsletter • Vol. 22 • Issue 16 • April 16, 2023 •

Archaeologist Zahi Hawass accused a new Netflix documentary about Cleopatra of “falsifying facts” by depicting the Macedonian Greek-descended Ptolemaic queen of Egypt as a Black African woman. The upcoming documentary, directed by Jada Pinkett Smith, debuts May 10 and features actress Adele James as Cleopatra VII. Hawass said that Netflix was engaging in the promotion of Afrocentric pseudohistory by endorsing claims that the Egyptian pharaohs were Black: “Cleopatra was Greek, meaning that she was blonde, not Black. […] Netflix is trying to stir up confusion to spread false information that the origin of Egyptian civilization is Black.” Historical Roman depictions of Cleopatra roughly contemporary with the queen show her with red hair. The Ptolemaic dynasty originated in Macedonia and are generally thought to be of Mediterranean look, based on existing depictions in ancient art.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ramonmercado said:
Criticisms over depiction of Cleopatra in new documentary film.


Netflix launched the trailer for its documentary film “Queen Cleopatra”, directed by Jada Pinkett Smith, wife of the famous US star Will Smith, depicting Queen Cleopatra as a black woman, which former Egyptian Antiquities Minister Zahi Hawass described as “falsifying facts.”

The trailer was released by Netflix on Thursday. The film will start showing on the platform officially on May 10, where actress Adele James will play the role of the Queen.

Queen Cleopatra, the last ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty, was born in 69 BC and died in 30 BC in Alexandria.

Hawass commented on the movie, which sparked public criticism in Egypt for portraying the Ptolemaic Queen as black-skinned, saying: “This is completely fake. Cleopatra was Greek, meaning that she was blonde, not black.”

Hawass added that in recent years a trend emerged, led by black Americans and blacks in South America, claiming that the Egyptian civilization is of black origin. He stressed that such claims were completely false. The black civilization has no connection with the Egyptian civilization, Hawass said, pointing out that the black civilization did not rule Egypt except in the twenty-fifth dynasty during the era of the Kingdom of Kush, i.e. at the end of the ancient Egyptian civilization.

Hawass pointed out that Egyptian temples contain drawings of Egyptian kings. These sketches are depictions of men striking their enemies. The enemies are depicted as either African, Nubian, Libyan or Asian, and all of them look very different in nationality from the Egyptian kings.

“Netflix is trying to stir up confusion to spread false information that the origin of Egyptian civilization is black,” Hawass continued.

Hawass is calling to take a stand against Netflix platform.

https://egyptindependent.com/hawass-criticizes-depicting-cleopatra-as-black-in-netflix-film/

From Jason Colavito's Email Newsletter • Vol. 22 • Issue 16 • April 16, 2023 •

Archaeologist Zahi Hawass accused a new Netflix documentary about Cleopatra of “falsifying facts” by depicting the Macedonian Greek-descended Ptolemaic queen of Egypt as a Black African woman. The upcoming documentary, directed by Jada Pinkett Smith, debuts May 10 and features actress Adele James as Cleopatra VII. Hawass said that Netflix was engaging in the promotion of Afrocentric pseudohistory by endorsing claims that the Egyptian pharaohs were Black: “Cleopatra was Greek, meaning that she was blonde, not Black. […] Netflix is trying to stir up confusion to spread false information that the origin of Egyptian civilization is Black.” Historical Roman depictions of Cleopatra roughly contemporary with the queen show her with red hair. The Ptolemaic dynasty originated in Macedonia and are generally thought to be of Mediterranean look, based on existing depictions in ancient art.
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Don't always agree with Hawass but he's right here. Depicting a Greco-Egyptian as a sub-Saharan African is as bonkers as a black Anne Boleyn.
 
Not knowing anything about Cleopatra, a quick few minutes read told me that age 10 she married her two brothers and they ruled powerfully.

Cleopatra’s beauty is questionable, but Cleopatra was a genius and well educated.

People today wonder why Julius Caesar and Mark Anthony was spellbound by her.

Cleopatra was a mix Greek, Persian, and Iranian.

Cleopatra body has never been found.
 
It's fun to speculate how she may have looked in real life and, judging from her profile on coinage, Cleopatra had the typical long, straight Greek nose and a markedly pointy chin.
A quick Google for Greek noses came up with this potential lookalike:

Cleo2.png
Cleo1.png


As for her famous lover Mark Anthony, as mentioned elsewhere, I reckon he was a dead ringer for ex-boxer Joe Bugner:

Mark1.png
Mark2.png
 
Egyptian lawyer Mahmoud al-Semary files a suit against Netflix over the depiction of Cleopatra as black.
When it's British history that is misrepresented, like a black Anne Boleyn, all that happens is maybe a bit of tut-tutting and a sad shaking of heads, but it looks like the Egyptians get more upset about such matters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-65322821
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Egyptian lawyer Mahmoud al-Semary files a suit against Netflix over the depiction of Cleopatra as black.
When it's British history that is misrepresented, like a black Anne Boleyn, all that happens is maybe a bit of tut-tutting and a sad shaking of heads, but it looks like the Egyptians get more upset about such matters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-65322821
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Well, Anne Boleyn (afaiaa) has onlt been portrayed as being black in historical dramas. A bit different when it's a documentary with dramatised bits.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Egyptian lawyer Mahmoud al-Semary files a suit against Netflix over the depiction of Cleopatra as black.
When it's British history that is misrepresented, like a black Anne Boleyn, all that happens is maybe a bit of tut-tutting and a sad shaking of heads, but it looks like the Egyptians get more upset about such matters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-65322821
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I'm very surprised at this because Egyptians don't even obey (or know) the rules of lane discipline on roads, have any idea what a red traffic light means or could care less that ten year olds are working on building sites. Very strange.
 
Floyd1 said:
I'm very surprised at this because Egyptians don't even obey (or know) the rules of lane discipline on roads, have any idea what a red traffic light means or could care less that ten year olds are working on building sites. Very strange.
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I see you've taken a Taxi in Cairo...

BTW Gal Gadot would be a better fit facially for Cleopatra. I know she's Israeli, but she's got a Mediterranean face.
 
Gal Gadot has been in talks about playing Cleopatra. People were not happy about that either.
 
eziofan said:
Wonder what the feedback would be like if Netflix did a docu-drama of the life of Muhammad Ali with Tyson Fury playing Ali?
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Feedback probably negative.

Because he's not an actor, and at 6 foot 9 and 18 stone has a substantially different physique from the 6 foot 3 and 15 1/2 stone (at his heaviest) Ali.
 
Timble2 said:
I see you've taken a Taxi in Cairo...
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Three friends and I found ourselves very late and likely to miss the train from Cairo to Luxor. We jumped into a battered old taxi and told the driver that if he could get us across the city, we'd pay double the fare. His expression suggested that he'd been waiting thirty years for somebody to say precisely those words.

The journey that ensued was memorable.

Cleopatra: storm in a teacup. Wildly inaccurate depictions of historical characters are ten a penny. Did anybody really expect Netflix to do anything other that target carefully analysed demographics to maximise the audience?

It's a key part of the firm's current business model.
 
Yithian said:
target carefully analysed demographics
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More like "jump on a bandwagon". I doubt that any amount of careful analysis of demographics would lead to some of the incredibly wildly inaccurate depictions that occur.
 
Floyd1 said:
I'm very surprised at this because Egyptians don't even obey (or know) the rules of lane discipline on roads, have any idea what a red traffic light means or could care less that ten year olds are working on building sites. Very strange.
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One lawyer files a suit and suddenly you can describe an entire nation in this sentence?
 
Frideswide said:
One lawyer files a suit and suddenly you can describe an entire nation in this sentence?
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Yes. It starts with one and before you know it they're all at it. Got to nip it in the bud now!
They need to get their priorities right. This is Egypt!

Before long they'll be saying that putting 7 teaspoons of sugar in your tea, fitting 4 people and a ladder on a motorbike and smoking 40 Cleopatra's a day is 'wrong' too.
It's how it starts, mark my words.
 
Yithian said:
Three friends and I found ourselves very late and likely to miss the train from Cairo to Luxor. We jumped into a battered old taxi and told the driver that if he could get us across the city, we'd pay double the fare. His expression suggested that he'd been waiting thirty years for somebody to say precisely those words.

The journey that ensued was memorable.
Click to expand...

I have just managed to recover a seventeen-year-old online album to find the photo I took one-handed while running away from his cab and into the terminal. He couldn't believe we'd made it either!

995566339_c9a938b7fc_o.jpg


Nostalgia rush.
 
Tipping point reached.
 
Perhaps a little lighter on the broad-brush generalisations, please.

And a reminder that as far as is possible we don't engage in culture war spats here; they simply sow dissension.
 
Willing to bet this is seeking more of the controversy pr that got more eyeballs on the Anceitn Apocalypse series as well.
 
Variety has picked up the story, and Zahi weighs in:
https://variety.com/2023/film/news/black-cleopatra-netflix-egypt-adele-james-1235589497/

Regarding the choice of casting Adele James as Cleopatra, Netflix’s promotional website Tudum in February quoted Jada Pinkett Smith, who is the show’s executive producer, as saying that since the queen’s heritage has been debated, it was “a nod to the centuries-long conversation about the ruler’s race.”

“We don’t often get to see or hear stories about Black queens, and that was really important for me, as well as for my daughter, and just for my community to be able to know those stories because there are tons of them!,” she noted.

There is no doubt among scholars that Cleopatra was Macedonian-Greek on her father Ptolemy XII’s side. But since the ethnic origin of her mother is not known, some historians say it’s possible that the Egyptian ruler’s mother was African and, therefore, that she could have been of mixed heritage.

Last week’s trailer drop for “Queen Cleopatra” has caused a stir in Egypt where Zahi Hawass, a prominent Egyptologist, was quoted by the al-Masry al-Youm newspaper as strongly disputing the possibility that Cleopatra was of mixed race. “This is completely fake. Cleopatra was Greek, meaning that she was light-skinned, not Black,” he said.
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