• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Derren Brown: Master Mind-Manipulator

I watched the Secrets of Street Magic Revealed and was very disappointed as he relied on camera tricks.
Yup Emps, that's exactly what I think upset the BF, that camera tricks were involved. There was also some chicanery with a watch in a shop window and he was equally annoyed about the doings of that one too.
 
The issue is one of pretending to be able to do something that you can't.

Paul Daniels never pretends to be anything other than an illusionist - using slight of hand and method to fool people. As with many people, when I find out how he performs those tricks - I am impressed by his abilities and cunning.

Uri Geller performs similar tricks - but claims to have special powers. Suffice to say that I dislike Uri Geller. He is a fraud and a cheat and has become rich from that.

Derren Brown falls in the middle. He performs great tricks - but tells us that he can do these things through a highly developed understanding of pyschology. If, in fact, Derren relies on manual trickery of the Paul Daniels variety - is it really fair to say that finding that out is the same as finding out how Paul Daniels chops Debbie McGhee in half?

So, where would Derren lie on the Daniels/Geller scale?

P.S. It has been stated that his greyhound track trick is through switching the tickets for a winning one. If you watch the trick - he passes over the ticket to the woman and she puts it through and says it is a losing ticket. The ticket is by now on the other side of the glass - there is nothing he can do to it physically - yet when he asks her to check again - it is a winning ticket. So, now that that subtlety of the trick is not lost - can anyone still explain how it works on a purely mechanical level?
 
can anyone still explain how it works on a purely mechanical level?
Well it's magic, innit, Mate? :rolleyes:

I think that's why DB is so entertaining- we can't pin him down!
I'm a fan, if only for the same reasons that I'm not a Geller fan.
 
So what's the story, now?

I've accepted Channel 4's statement, but I'm surprised there's been no repudiation from Derren himself, despite the fact that the stunt is now being universally derided as a fake.

Derren's Web-site was down for 24 hours and is now back up, but with no reference to anything post-roulette.

Apparently he was defending himself on the XFM breakfast show this morning. Anyone a listener?
 
Well, I've seen Derren Brown live, and he genuinely did appear to read my friend's mind, who wasn't a plant, etc etc. I'll take the liberty of quoting myself:
originally posted by me, here
I've seen Derren Brown on stage (he's from round here, and used to perform in pub theatre a lot and so on) - he's brilliant. A mate of mine volunteered once, genuinely had never met him, and Brown accurately named the song he was thinking of, completely at random.

He does maintain it's all about body language and subtle cues, but it's so freaky just how accurate and consistent he is.

He was a conjuror before getting into hypnotism, so my guess is he did the Russian Roulette trick relying primarily on his psychological prowess, but with the safeguard of using illusion techniques to back it up: it may not have been fatal, but he would have lost a great deal of kudos, not to mention looking pretty silly, had he fired even a harmless stage blank into his head :).
 
I do listen to XFM but didn't catch the Breakfast Show. XFM have hardly mentioned it but there are reports:

Brown refuses to answer 'live bullet' question

Derren Brown has refused to say if he used blanks in his Russian roulette TV stunt, as he spoke for the first time about the show.

Police in Jersey, where the stunt took place, have dismissed Brown's attempt as a fake which did not involve a live bullet.

Asked today if that was the case, Brown gave a series of rambling replies on radio station 104.9 Xfm and said all the issues were addressed in the show. Until yesterday Channel 4 was claiming on its website that a live bullet was used.

Brown himself - prior to the stunt - said: "It's a real gun, it's a real bullet. I'm really putting the real gun to my head and really firing it."

Asked today if the ammunition was real, he said: "All of that is answered on the show, and those are things we go into because we wanted to make a responsible show.

"Issues like the question of blanks and so on are all answered there, coming back to all this is terrific because as a performer and when you want to create a piece of riveting television and something people will talk about and have lots to say about."

Brown, 32, who also calls himself a master mentalist, added: "As I've said, coming back after the weekend and seeing this press question of was it real or was it not real, I couldn't have hoped for a better response, because for me, if it comes down to it, if it's real then it was just reckless and if it's a hoax then he's just a waste of time.

"Those aren't interesting questions to me, but to actually have this question now, was the whole thing real was it not real? Is it a hoax? for me that is great, any magic performer in the country would give their right arm."

Brown was seen choosing an assistant in the programme on Sunday night who placed a bullet in the chamber of his choice in a pistol. The volunteer then counted from one to six and Brown was said to read his voice to work out which one contained the bullet.

Story filed: 12:21 Wednesday 8th October 2003

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_826947.html

I suppose he is going for the any publicity is good publicity but......

Another report in the Garudian gives his side of the story (for what its worth):

A spokesman for Brown last night issued a less than robust defence of the stunt, saying only that if the illusionist had used a blank bullet, as the police alleged, and if it had fired as the gun were pointed at his head, then "he would have died anyway"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1058276,00.html

Emps
 
thanks for the info Emperor - that's the kind of thing I've been trying and failing to get hold of for the past couple of days.

So we know Derren is loving all the attention, but it's starting to seem as though the scene where they demonstrated the power of a blank was a subtle way of justifying their use of one.

So I was wrong and all you cynics were right.
 
Some interesting reports in the Garudian today with some differnt interpretations of events (and look at NLP):

Was Derren Brown really playing Russian roulette - or was it just a trick?

Alok Jha
Thursday October 9, 2003
The Guardian

Sorry to ruin it for you, but the odds are that it was just a magic trick. It was pretty convincing, I'll grant you, but there are lots of reasons to believe that Brown was never in any danger.

Setting aside the fact that C4 lawyers and the police are highly unlikely to have allowed him to proceed if there was any risk at all of his shooting himself, it must be remembered that Brown is, as he describes it, a "mentalist" - an illusionist who relies on psychological manipulation to help mask his tricks.

For this stunt, psychologists believe he could have used one of several ways to guide viewers away from what was actually happening.

As he selected the person to load the gun, for example, he repeatedly told viewers that he needed someone suggestible. "Magicians... pretend they are mind reading and so on when, in fact, the trick would be much more simple than that when you analysed it closely," says Glenn Wilson, a psychologist at King's College London.

Wilson thinks the five men picked from the 100 finalists were stooges. He says Brown could have easily manipulated the selection tests to ensure only these men got through. "It had nothing to do with special mind-reading powers or seeking people of particular personality types," he says.


Those who want to believe Brown's stunt was more than a common magic trick, have suggested he may be an expert in neurolinguistic programming (NLP), a technique developed in the US during the mid-70s. "NLP is a communications technology based on cognitive and behavioural psychotherapy," says Rachel Hott, co-director of the NLP training centre in New York. "The goal is to affect change through thoughts, feelings and behaviours."

So if there really was no trickery involved, perhaps Brown was able to somehow persuade his contestant to put the bullet into a specific chamber? Certain radio stations have been re-running sections where Brown said the number "one" several times (the bullet turned out to be in the first chamber of the gun). Was he planting something in the contestant's mind?

Hott says there is no reason why NLP could not be used in this way but is sceptical that it could be so targeted.

Wilson says he is sceptical of NLP. "It's a pseudo-science but it picks up on little bits and pieces of legitimate body language and other such research," he says. "Nobody has that much mind control over others or the capability of reading them that they'd risk a live bullet."


However it was done, no one denies that Brown is a master showman. "He presents it as a loaded gun, the test conditions appear to be fair and, I think you'll agree, he made a very dramatic programme," says David Beckley of the Magic Circle.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/thisweek/story/0,12977,1058573,00.html

and:

The great pretender

Far from damaging his reputation, Derren Brown's controversial Russian roulette stunt was a magical masterstroke that confirms him as a showman of considerable talent

Mark Borkowski
Thursday October 9, 2003



Urbane, charming, sophisticated, charismatic, magnetic, entertaining, intriguing. These are the kind of words a significant majority of the viewing public would use to describe to the dashing Derren Brown. You can now add charlatan to that, if you like.

If we had given it a moment's dispassionate consideration, we'd have realised only a psychotic programme controller would commission a snuff magic show as a career-furthering move.

To my knowledge - and he's welcome to saw off my head with Fred West's rusty razorblade if I'm wrong - Channel 4 chief Mark Thompson is not psychotic.

Even if the odds against a Jersey barn being splattered with bits of Brown were a trillion to one, no producer on earth would have taken the risk. In retrospect, we should have known it was always going to be rigged.

But we got caught up in the drama, the excitement, the expectation, the revelations about the three-second delay, the anti-gun lobby up in arms (ha ha) and all the rest of the ballyhoo.

Ballyhoo that spread itself across every paper in the land: perfect pre-publicity. We were suckered. Or, more honestly, we suckered ourselves, and that's the best kind of suckering there is.

We kind of knew Brown would not die. Then again, we couldn't be absolutely certain.

There was always a chance he would blast himself all over his Ant-from-the-Royle-Family lookalike assistant, which would be terrible and not something you'd want to admit to even wanting to watch.

But (like porn) the fact there's some stigma attached, lends it an extra frisson, thrill and allure.

The upshot? We wanted to see Derren Brown Plays Russian Roulette Live. Or at least 3.3 million of us did. That's the showman's trick: first pull in your audience. (David Blaine please note: a sympathetic audience that wants you to succeed).

The next showman's trick is to build the tension, which Brown did superbly through the process of selecting his assistant.

It was entertaining in its own right: it created a platform to showcase the man's undoubted talent and to emphasise the sense that the guy is for real: he knows what he's doing.

The denouement was consummately managed, right down to his mis-selection of the fifth barrel. Note, of course, that the stunt went right to the wire. If the first barrel had held the bullet, in some way we'd have felt conned.

The conclusion was a triumph. Brown confirmed his status as the master risk-taker, mind-reader and magician. Fantastic. Brilliant. He did it.

Then, in the finest tradition of investigative journalism, a hack makes one simple call to a Jersey plod and unravels the fix. The bullet was a blank. Which explains a slightly curious insertion in the show. Remember when our weapons expert revealed even a blank can drill a hole in a plastic bottle? Hmmm.

Where does all this take Brown? Banished to the outer darkness as a cheat, rogue and charlatan, doomed to scrape a living in fifth-rate pantos and dodgy downmarket clubs for the rest of his derailed performing career before he dies a lonely, alcohol-sodden death in a down-at-heel seaside boarding house?

Not at all. The majority response an informal straw poll has elicited is interesting. It's a three-point defence that runs as follows:

1: Of course he was never going to die - I knew that. (Yeah well, you didn't say that before the event. Not many of us did.)

2: Anyway, that's not the point - he was right about the barrel so, if it had been a live bullet, he'd not be dead.

3: Didn't you see the bit about how blanks can cause real damage if you fire them into your head?

Brown's continuing celebrity is assured. This has been a PR triumph of pre- and post-show media frenzy par excellence. He engaged us and made us complicit in the event and we went all the way with him.

At the end, a substantial majority has emerged from the experience thinking it's largely irrelevant whether it was a real bullet or not. That's some trick. The real bullet was the big sell. So it wasn't real? What the hell - it was pure entertainment, anyway.

It's a bit like the Iraq war. We were promised weapons of mass destruction, we went to war and, in the end, it emerged the weapons weren't there in the first place. The only problem being that, unlike Brown, the stars of this production weren't genuine showmen and they never courted their public properly.

This takes us, ineluctably, to David Blaine (again). If Blaine had pulled the Russian roulette stunt, and the bullet was revealed to be a blank, he'd have been hung drawn and quartered. Which doesn't seem altogether fair. But if you're utterly unlikeable and lack the essential component of true showmanship - an ability to relate to your audience - what can you do?

http://media.guardian.co.uk/columnists/story/0,7550,1058771,00.html

Its an interesting interpretation - basically that rather than claim it is magic covering up a cunning conjunction of props, sleight of hand, plants, etc. his routine is that he is actually using well known psychological techniques to cover his use of the same tricks.

It is cunning as he provides people like me with some nice "well how did he do that??" type of tricks while allowing me to also be a smartarse and go around saying "well these are the techniques he uses and he is up front about it". In some ways if anyone is at fault it is me for reading too much into things what looks to be a modern twist on an old art.

This still doesn't make my chips taste any better but I now realise that it wasn't Derren Brown pissing on them it was me - now there is a mind control trick he can be proud of ;)

Emps
 
I guess the NLP aspect and mindreading emphasis is a variation on the classic case of the traditional magician's "Redirection" of method rather than basic attention with slight of hand. The poilce statement not only implied that live ammo was not used but explictly that "no one was at risk" That would also include the possible dangers from "blank" rounds implied in the programme.

Perhaps Its not so much what you do but the way you do it. Of course when a magician says something is real or no stooges are used etc and then procceds to attempt the impossible - Nothing is what it seems to be but in a very entertaining way - If you don't know exactly how it's done. Geller has crossed that line - He says his "powers" come from the planet Hoova. Now regardless of any of the various exposes from Randi etc he should have kept his mouth shut. When the explanation is more absurd that the trick you have a credibilty problem to say the least. Derren B's explanation at least seems initially credible even if it turns out to be psuedo science - a little better than Geller's Science fantasy explanation. Yet Geller has been able to reinvent himself for so long to the general public and remain relative untouchable- he is a remarkable phenomena but not in the way he perhaps intended..
 
Seems to me that the majority of people who are now miffed about the possibility of the round being a blank are simply embarrassed because they were stupid enough to believe it was real in the first place ..
 
Can we go one level further and ponder - did Derren mindcontrol the audience at home? (now that'd be cool!)

By the way, did he do a trick at the beginning where he wanted you to think of a jungle animal and you were supposed to say 'lion'? I was in the kitchen at the time and my 'yeti' asked me just as I was letting the cat in, so I said 'tiger'. Why would we be supposed to say 'lion' - because of the repetition of 'L' in 'jungle animal'? (I won't capitalise those Ls for fear of ONE taking the piss again!) Hmmm.... maybe I should stop going the linguistic route....

How about this for a trick? Tell someone their hair looks nice, and most of the time, they'll pat or stroke their hair.

Did anyone see the magic tv programmes after Derren? There was a pretty poor show with 2 young chaps who looked lke Marilyn Manson fans doing old tricks (the 'look I'm cutting my arm with a knife' trick - where were the anti-knife lobby?)

Anyway, Frank Skinner made me laugh the other nght - he said all magicians were trying to get in on the Blaine act, and produced a plastic lunch box with Sooty in it!
 
Dansette said:
By the way, did he do a trick at the beginning where he wanted you to think of a jungle animal and you were supposed to say 'lion'? I was in the kitchen at the time and my 'yeti' asked me just as I was letting the cat in, so I said 'tiger'. Why would we be supposed to say 'lion' - because of the repetition of 'L' in 'jungle animal'? (I won't capitalise those Ls for fear of ONE taking the piss again!) Hmmm.... maybe I should stop going the linguistic route....

I said tiger as weLL. I think my immediate gut instinct was to say Lion - but being a sad pedant I am aware that Lions do not Live in the jungle but tigers do.

ONE would not even contempLate mentioning any capital L's:D
 
Dansette said:
Did anyone see the magic tv programmes after Derren? There was a pretty poor show with 2 young chaps who looked lke Marilyn Manson fans doing old tricks (the 'look I'm cutting my arm with a knife' trick - where were the anti-knife lobby?)
They were dreadful, weren't they?
 
Mayby Derren Brown manipulated Ch4 and the Jersey police to let him do the trick.

"Is there any real danger?"
"There is no real danger! These are not the live rounds you are looking for."
"Oh, that's alright then."
 
whizzer said:
They were dreadful, weren't they?

YES!!!! So rubbish after dear ol' Derren!

They may as well have shown an episode of 'Whizz Bit' (anyone remember that - Paul Daniels dressed as a yellow cone-shaped turd doing naff magic tricks on children's tv with the help of a 6ft rabbit).
 
They may as well have shown an episode of 'Whizz Bit' (anyone remember that - Paul Daniels dressed as a yellow cone-shaped turd doing naff magic tricks on children's tv with the help of a 6ft rabbit).

Ha ha thisaway
Ha ha thataway
Ha ha thisaway
My oh my

I so wish that you'd never mentioned that :(

Emps
 
foxybox: I'm not going to thank you - I did download it though (it goes in the folder with the A Team, Dangermouse and Count Duckula themes) :)

[edit: Damn its exactly how I remember it - bloody awful. And I'm grinning like a fool :( ]

Emps
 
Paul Daniels dressed as a yellow cone-shaped turd
He just put on a hat and a splash of colour then!;)

This egregious crap, along eith 'Jimbo' (Jimbo! JImbo! JIMBO! JIMBOOOOOOOOOOOOO!) was on TV the evening I went into hospital to have my fourth child. The other 3 were glued to t'box, eating chips and singing 'haha thisaway....' etc.

Is it right, I asked myself, to bring another innocent child intoa world such as this?:rolleyes:
 
Too somber

I know things are a bit theme songy at the moment, but I had a thought while doing the washing up...

Given you can tell alot about a person from the plate they leave behind, greens left etc etc. Do you reckon thats how the old tea leaf readers really worked? They would look at the really obvious evidence in and around the tea cup, rather than the leaves.

If so, does all this lead me to think Derren is a new age Sherlock??! Opium roulette perhaps. Sorry.
 
Well done DD! And I would also like to apologise for reminding everyone about Wizbit. It might be the case that those naff magicians I mentioned, who are quite young, may well have grown up watching Wizbit, thus inspired to reek magic mayhem across our screens. :eek!!!!:
 
Interesting thoughts here. Nothing really to add, just wondered if anyone saw the Derren Brown the Waiter cartoon in Viz? Couple walk into the restaurant and Derren says "Good afternoon, table for....TWO???"
Couple: "Oooh Spooky"

Amused me anyway :)
 
Derren Brown on TV Awards

Did anyone else see it? How did he do that?
For those who didn't watch it, he was presenting an award for some nonsense or other, and he asked the 5 nominees to stand up and claimed he'd been trying to implant a word into their heads since he came on stage. He asked all the nominees to give the word they first thought of, and they all gave a different word. The words were Dyslexic, Ocean, Dawn, Sausage and Love. he also said the one that was incorrect would be the winner of the award. He had previously given the words in a sealed envelope to Trevor McDonald, and blow me down but they were correct! (Well, there was a choice of two for each, but they were correct) apart from dyslexic, who won the award.
How could he possibly have done that?
 
I had to reply to this, as I really like Derren Brown.

Whether the Russian Roullette thing was fake or not, it still created a damn good piece of television. A whole lot better than, 'man sits in glass box for a month or so'.

I'm not saying that Derren is an all seeing all knowing psychological marvel, but he does produce some odd stuff, that appears to be simple suggestion.

My favourite 'trick', was the one he pulled on the tube train, by getting a guy to forget the name of his stop.

That seemed to be done using a 'hidden' phrase during his conversation, something like:

"What was the name of your stop, thinking about it now what was the name of your stop?"

Well, I thought it was good.
 
There's a sort of DB marathon on CH4 now so I'm stuck with him all night as the BF is a fan.

Well actually, when DB was on last week we had a sort of puzzling argument about what constitutes 'magic'. I seem to remember that the BF believes that DB is either

a. a charlatan who has stooges everywhere he goes to make himself look like a REAL magician
or
b. in league with the Prince of Darkness Himself.

:confused:


Those things seem somehow more likely to him than a bit of psychology and informed guesswork.:D
 
Hahahahaha

The BF just complained, 'I don't know how he does that. He must be in league with the devil!'
To which I replied, 'Funny you should say that. Take a look at this message board..........'

:devil:
:rofl:
 
escargot: I'm watching those on E4 now too and it is very interesting indeed because if we keep in mind what his Russian Roulette 'illusion' has taught us (that he is basically covering up old psychic's/magician's tricks with the pretence that it is all down to psychological techniques - I'm sure with some genuine psychological stuff mixed in) it all becomes clearer.

The trick with the second hand care dealer (doing the human lie detector) and the one with the blind athlete (some kind of mind reading trick) seen in that light are quite easily explained - he used researchers to pump them for information without there knowing.

His schtick means that people are probably not as wary as wehn they go on stage with a magician but once you start interpretting things as relying on tried and tested tricks then what he does is perfectly easily explained. I do still feel slightly cheated as I did hold him up as an example of what could actually be done with some psychological techniques but its still a good show and in the end isn't that what you want?

This really made me wonder about what he was doing with the RR trick. He must have known that he would be exposed - was it his equivalent of doing a masked magician on himself or did he just mess up and over reach himself.

Ah well, whatever his actual motives he gets firmly put back into second place behind Penn & Teller as far as I'm concerned.

Emps
 
Back
Top