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Distance viewing something scary

tilly50

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
312
Ever since I can remember I have "known" stuff without being told. It hasn't been a useful talent and has got me into trouble on more than one occasion, so I have never had the inclination to develop it further.
Things don't come in dreams but rather in little snatches throughout the day while I'm awake. They are rather like seeing some film running in your minds eye.
The thing that is worrying me is that for years off and on I have had the "sight" of this same person in the same type of location (lake/river surrounded by coniferous woodland). The experience is very real and includes a sense of smell associated with this man. He is paddling a type of canoe with things tried to it that float around the canoe bobbing up and down. He is gaunt looking with long greasy straggling hair, his hands are long and thin and sinewy. He is dressed in a mish-mash of clothes. It is what he does that worries me, I've seen him talking to young people on the bank of the water, he somehow lures them into the water and then he drowns them. He has done this loads of times and the floats around his canoe are trophies.
I have always dismissed these "scenes" when they happen but I have seen another just recently and I worry that somehow I am seeing a serial killer in action. I know that the authorities could not take any action if I told them, as these things appear to be happening far away from where I live (I get the idea that they are occuring in Canada/America) and anyway they are weird for me to come to terms with never mind anyone else believing them. You all probably think (quite rightly) that I am way off on the weird scale by now but does anyone know anything that could help.
 
tilly50 said:
Ever since I can remember I have "known" stuff without being told. It hasn't been a useful talent and has got me into trouble on more than one occasion, so I have never had the inclination to develop it further.
Things don't come in dreams but rather in little snatches throughout the day while I'm awake. They are rather like seeing some film running in your minds eye.
The thing that is worrying me is that for years off and on I have had the "sight" of this same person in the same type of location (lake/river surrounded by coniferous woodland). The experience is very real and includes a sense of smell associated with this man. He is paddling a type of canoe with things tried to it that float around the canoe bobbing up and down. He is gaunt looking with long greasy straggling hair, his hands are long and thin and sinewy. He is dressed in a mish-mash of clothes. It is what he does that worries me, I've seen him talking to young people on the bank of the water, he somehow lures them into the water and then he drowns them. He has done this loads of times and the floats around his canoe are trophies.
I have always dismissed these "scenes" when they happen but I have seen another just recently and I worry that somehow I am seeing a serial killer in action. I know that the authorities could not take any action if I told them, as these things appear to be happening far away from where I live (I get the idea that they are occuring in Canada/America) and anyway they are weird for me to come to terms with never mind anyone else believing them. You all probably think (quite rightly) that I am way off on the weird scale by now but does anyone know anything that could help.

I know exactly how you feel, the same thing used to happen to me quite regularly. I say used to as it hasn't happened for quite a while now.

As you described, I used to see scenes in my minds eye, most of them made absolutely no sense at all to me.
I gave up telling people in the end as they thought I was either insane or just talking rubbish.

The most disturbing occurance of this was when I was back at Uni. I had a vision of a big concrete staircase outside and a chap walking down the steps.
This first chap was walking when another person appeared and began to walk upto the first chap in a very aggressive manner. He started an argument and that's where my 'vision' ended, I thought maybe I should go and have a look on the Uni grounds as the library had a big concrete staircase.
I decided it was nothing and forgot about it.
The next morning I found out that a chap had been attacked by someone on the library stairs at the same time as my 'vision' :shock:

I learnt to live with it, there's probably not much you can do really, unless you know exactly where the event is happening and when.
 
That's the problem. These things are not precognitive, they have happened, usually quite recently. So I couldn't stop them happening even if I knew where they were happening (or even if they were happening)
You're right too about peoples response, if you tell them about something they hadn't told anyone, you get queer looks and they can be a bit angry about you knowing something they hadn't told you :oops: :oops: . It took me a while to learn the difference between what I had been told and what I had seen in my minds eye when I was a child because I thought tht everyone could see things like I did
 
Have you kept a close watch on the news to see if there are any mystery disappearances in your area since these visions started?
 
zoltan_g said:
I know exactly how you feel, the same thing used to happen to me quite regularly. I say used to as it hasn't happened for quite a while now.

Yes, it's clairvoyance, not precognition. I've had it, too, and can, sometimes, turn it on at will, but only for hopelessly mundane events (like what colors of envelopes are in this morning's mail -- who cares?). Big events escape me entirely.
 
Fascinating story, Tilly!

Is the action in the present time, do you think?
What sort of canoe is it: Canadian, kayak, other?
Plastic/fibreglass, wood, or even birch-bark?
How about the paddle - wood or metal/plastic? Single or double bladed?
He is dressed in a mish-mash of clothes.
Are these clothes just old rags, or are some of them noticeably modern, such as a nylon jacket, for example?

Just trying to firm up the picture here, but whether that will solve the puzzle I don't know!
 
I think that what I "see" is recent, ie:has happened or is happening in the current time.
I'm sorry but I don't know anything about canoes, but the one I see is open, goes to a point at both front and back, is a dirty beige colour on top and dark brown/grey near the water. It does not look like it is plastic or fibreglass.
The man has one paddle and the bit that goes in the water is painted red.
The mans clothes look shabby and dirty, he wears a lot of layers, shirts and stuff. His trousers are dark blue (denim jeans?) and he has them tucked into boots.
He sits in the canoe on a seat in the middle and around him a bags of stuff. There is no sound accompanying these scenes (I usually can hear things as well as see them) but there is a distinct musty, foetid smell about the man.
I get the idea that this is in a wilderness area as I cannot see any sign of a road or housing, the only tracks in the woodland are narrow dirt paths. He never seems to go far from the water. The water is either a lake or slow moving river. The trees are huge and not a plantation (they are not in rows like you see in Wales and Scotland). I have never been to North America but what I see looks very much like the pictures of there.
He goes for people on their own, not often, men or women. He waits and then speaks to them, lures them near the water. I feel that he has done this for a long time. When I see this man it scares me, it happens out of the blue with no reason. Seeing these things doesn't help me or anyone else and I wish that I didn't.
 
Have you though of looking at the FBI missing persons website to see if you recognise anybody, this might give you an idea of area.
 
When I see this man it scares me, it happens out of the blue with no reason. Seeing these things doesn't help me or anyone else and I wish that I didn't.

I really sympathise with your situation. It must be very frightening and I imagine it makes you quite depressed. There are very few people (I certainly don't know any) who could remain unaffected by what you're going through.

Is there someone you can share these experiences with; someone you trust? They don't have to be a close friend or colleague or family member. For instance the person in whom I confided when I was going through a similar situation to yours was a woman who ran a second-hand book shop. We'd clicked the moment we met, a couple of years before, and even though I didn't see her all that frequently, we could talk about anything -- no judgement, no agendas -- and she was a tower of strength when I told her about the visions I was having. She didn't have any answers, but she helped a lot. It's great that you have people here in the forums, but nothing beats a face to face chat with someone whose eyes, smile and pat on the hand can restore your equilibrium.

As Zoltan and others have said, you're not alone in what you're going through, so I imagine their posts will have reassured you a great deal.

It's perfectly normal to wish you weren't having these visions. Unfortunately, you are and they're tormenting you. At the moment, you must feel as if you're at the mercy of a situation you're powerless to prevent. So you're experiencing some very powerful emotions. It's no fun feeling powerless before something so unpleasant.

Maybe if you do seemingly small things, you'll feel less 'controlled' by the situation. For example you could begin a journal in which you note the date and details of the visions. At the front you could note the visions as they occur and at the back of the journal, you could note down every detail you remember of the visions you've already had. That way, you'll feel you're doing something constructive and this will help remove the sense of being controlled by an external force.

Psychologically it will help by removing the contents of the visions from inside your head and transferring them elsewhere. Instead of you having to carry those awful visions around, they'll now be in a journal and separate from you. You'll feel lighter.

As well, by organising your memories of the visions and setting them down in the journal, you'll be creating a record that you (or others perhaps at some time) can refer to. After a while, you'll be able to compare new visions with details of the old. This might reveal important clues. Writing things down often brings out details that you're not aware of. Try to empty your mind when you write and just let it flow. You might be surprised by the wealth of detail that is currently jumbled up and repressed inside your head, once you've seen it on a page.

Once you've written in the journal, put it away in a special place until next time. Then walk away from it. What you will have done will be the equivalent of throwing out the trash. It should help you to get on with your everyday life, free from the visions, or far more free of them than you are currently.

It's possible that hypnosis would reveal much that you're not consciously aware of. You may not wish to take this step of course, or not at present. If not, that's fine. Whatever you decide is fine.

It may be that you're picking up events which occurred several years ago. When you unload the visions into the journal, you might discover clues to the timing of the events, in things such as hairstyles or clothing or other detail of the victims. This may eventually be of help to you, because if you discover that these events occurred ten years ago it will be clear to you that there was/is nothing you could have done.

Also, over time, it might be possible for you to halt the visions, if that's what you want. Most of us have the ability to awaken moments before our alarm clocks go off in the morning. In the same way, you could learn to 'turn off' the visions just before they begin. Usually, this is accomplished by repeating to yourself that your brain will turn the 'OFF' switch when the visions start. It would be helpful if you could visualise your brain doing this and by envisaging a knob or touch pad marked 'OFF' or STOP. You might even be able to incorporate a little mental radio that will play your favourite relaxing piece of music in place of the visions.

Others here might be able to assist with other suggestions that are effective in this regard.

Best Wishes :)
 
Hi Tilly

Great post - sorry to make light of your experience but your cognition would make a great basis for a book - sort of Deliverance with a 180 degree twist. All its needs is a hero :D

As far as location goes, your assessment sounds pretty good. A serial killer kayaking through an American national park / wilderness. (If it was a salt water estuary in New Guinea it would be pretty obvious ;) )
I wonder if anyone in the US has ever reported being attacked by a waterborne hobo? Could it be worth dropping the authorities an anonymous line?

BTW not all woodland in Scotland and Wales are planted rows - there are plenty of natural areas too.

An indelicate question, but what are the floating trophies?
 
tilly50 said:
I'm sorry but I don't know anything about canoes, but the one I see is open, goes to a point at both front and back, is a dirty beige colour on top and dark brown/grey near the water. It does not look like it is plastic or fibreglass.
The man has one paddle and the bit that goes in the water is painted red.
Sounds like a Canadian canoe rather than a kayak. (That's a type, though, doesn't mean it's necessarily in Canada.) Native North American style canoe, in other words, originally made of birch bark or elm bark, now made of anything that can be moulded - fibreglass, plastic, double-diagonal wood veneers, aluminium, canvas, etc.
All the lightness of the birch tree,
All the toughness of the cedar,
All the larch's supple sinews;
And it floated on the river
Like a yellow leaf in Autumn,
Like a yellow water-lily.
(The Song of Hiawatha -- Longfellow)
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/natbltn/400-499/nb463.htm

Some open canoes advertised here:
http://www.kayaksandpaddles.co.uk/canoe ... canoes.htm

May be worth searching the web to see if you can find a picture matching your vision...?
 
rynner said:
Sounds like a Canadian canoe rather than a kayak. (That's a type, though, doesn't mean it's necessarily in Canada.) Native North American style canoe, in other words, originally made of birch bark or elm bark, now made of anything that can be moulded - fibreglass, plastic, double-diagonal wood veneers, aluminium, canvas, etc.
And a given that the 'fashion' element could date the orginal purchase of the canoe or accessories pretty well.
Last time I was in the North of North America open 'indian' canoes seemed to me to be out of widespread fashion. May have changed by now though.

Tilly - any detail you perceive would be interesting - is the canoe metal (sound of it hitting the bank / bottom) is it wood etc? What are the victims wearing? Are they lone females? What is their hair like?
 
Tilly, I just thought of something. IF you decide to 'replay' the visions in order to obtain information and detail, it might be wise if you adopted the viewpoint of a viewer, rather than attempt to re-live or enter the visions.

For example, you could say a brief, simple prayer for protection, to commence. Then you could create a frame or screen in your mind, similar to a tv set. Then turn on a mental switch and view the scene as you would a movie.

That way, you would be able to remove yourself; detach (distance) yourself. It would be less traumatic that way, and safer for you and your state of mind.

Afterwards, you would turn off the 'screen'. Or you could close little imaginary curtains by making a sweeping movement (from outside edges towards the centre) with your index fingers, just like drawing the curtains of a doll's house. You could repeat the simple prayer at that point, thanking for the protection you've been provided, and wash your hands. Then step outside into the fresh air and give yourself a good shake. All best done in daylight or any other time when you feel safe and secure.

It's a precautionary technique used by others in your situation, also by hypnotists, regression therapists, etc.

You clearly have the ability to create a mental screen and OFF and ON switches.

By doing the above, you will be in control of things. That's important.

When those possessing wild-talents attempt to consciously tune-into or revisit their visions, they are sometimes pulled-into them with terrifying swiftness, far deeper than they'd intended to go & with traumatic results.

You don't want to create a mental-link with the canoe-man ... whether or not he exists or existed in 'reality'.

Safer to put a screen between you and he. That way, you will be able to observe and collect detail in the same way as you can watch a documentary on tv. If it becomes too upsetting, you simply end the connection via means of an OFF switch that you control.

Using the screen technique though should provide you a feeling of safe-from-a-distance and this in turn would leave you free enough from anxiety that you could at your leisure, collect much information & detail that previously may have evaded you.
 
Sounds like good advice from again.
 
Thank you, Rynner :)

Tilly, it's always possible that you're picking up on someone's daydreams/fantasies.

Still unpleasant, but preferable to the visions being connected to actual murders.

Several years ago, I experienced something similar, involving a small group of men who lived in the hinterlands behind a major coastal city.

The visions were so incredibly real and detailed. Absolutely no fantasy elements at all. Everything was realistic; the vegetation, atmosphere, the behaviour of all those involved, even the dirt tracks with strips of weeds down the centre where car-wheels don't touch. In short, it was as if I'd been transported to an actual place, surrounded by ordinary people.

In the visions, the men had contrived a scheme whereby they were able to divert specific vehicles from an isolated country road to an even more isolated (though scenic) two-rut track. Thick, lush vegetation with high moutains surrounding.

The conditions created by the men ensured that the target vehicles became stuck. The men would appear in the guise of passing farm labourers. They behaved naturally and offered to try to get the stuck vehicle back on the road again. They had a mini-crane thing on the back of their own truck. They seemed like perfectly equipped Good Samaritans. They were courteous, concerned. Not too chatty; just right. Nothing at all that would arouse suspicion.

The location they'd chosen was perfect for their scheme. Very few vehicles would travel in such a location. No homesteads nearby. They had little danger of being spotted and later identified. The time they chose was mid to late afternoon. They obviously knew the area like the backs of their hands.

In the visions however, I saw the swift little glances and flickers of smiles that passed between them as they went through the charade of setting up their lifting gear. When I saw the glances, I was shocked to the bone.

The people they were pretending to assist were completely taken in by them.

Then I saw a rusted, late model small car a short distance away, tipped crazily in the air, but already half covered by vegetation. Inside the car, on the seat, was a woman's handbag, tipped open. Lying there were credit cards and other identification. I realised no woman would leave behind such essential items.

It occurred to me in an instant that these men were killing and robbing their target victims. I felt ill. It really does hit you in the solar plexus. Made worse by the fact that these Good Samaritans were experienced in their charade, while their actual intentions were foul.

It upset me for a long time and would return to mind at unexpected times. I fretted that while I was going about my daily business, these men might be trapping and murdering people. The visions were so real, it was difficult to find any explanation, other than these things were actually happening.

Finally though I realised that if people were being murdered in this way, then some of them at least would be in the media. I know people do go missing and remain unreported for one reason or another, but surely some would be subject of well-publiced police searches. I lived within 20 to 40 kilometres approx. from the scene of the crimes in the visions, yet I had read or heard nothing about missing people in the area.

The only explanation I've managed to come up with is that I must have been picking up on someone's fantasy.

People spend a lot of time daydreaming, some more than others.
Unfortunately, there are some sick, anti-social fantasies in the air.
Depending on the mind of the fantasiser and the energy he/she invests in his/her fantasy; the stronger/weaker the fantasy.
For all we know, there may be band-widths for fantasies in the same way there are for police and emergency broadcasts and commercial radio and tv, or ham-radio, etc.
There may even be 'types' of thought-channels, similar to blood-types.
If you needed a blood transfusion, you would be given blood from someone who's blood type was compatible with yours. Similarly, you may be able to pick-up fantasies emitted by people who also share your 'band width'. It's feasible. Good and bad people share Blood Type O. But their blood is still compatible.

Most of us have somehow 'known' when someone was going to phone or write. We're all familiar with that.

Also, school children are often instructed to stare at the back of another student's head, as an experiment. Usually, the person being stared at will suddenly swing around in the direction of the starer.

So we're mostly aware that a large proportion of us are able to pick up and transmit thoughts. Like human radio receivers/transmitters.

Therefore, you may be receiving someone's fantasies regarding an isolated location, canoe, victims, trophies, etc.

The more detailed the fantasy, the more detailed your vision.

People often fantasise in order to relieve tensions, hostilities, resentments, etc. Some of the fantasies are highly detailed, lurid, violent, cruel. People don't wear little signs on their heads alerting others to the fact that inside that head, some very unhealthy stuff is being obsessed over.

Fortunately, the fantasies, though shocking in their content, DO serve to release emotions that otherwise could propel people into actual acts of violence.

This may explain the visions you're having. May. It would be nice if it were the case.

Perhaps somewhere in a city lives an anonymous person employed in a job he hates, married to a spouse he hates, in a neighbourhood he hates. He may be utterly frustrated and angry about his circumstances. Rather than change his circumstances, he may be venting his considerable anger via a fantasy in which he is the controller, rather than the controlled. When his boss shouts at him in real-life, the fantasiser may release his fury by returning to his favourite fantasy in which he is utterly free from the constraints of his real life, paddling around in a wilderness and selecting strangers at random in order to murder them in his private fantasy lake, afterwards trailing their possessions (the tropies you see) behind him as a further act of contempt.

Anyway, it's a possibility.

Another possibility is that you may be picking up on someone's theme for a book or movie. There are millions of unfinished novels out there, their creators tossing them around in their minds virtually all the time. They'd be made more powerful (energetically transmitted) if the would-be authors were motivated by fame and all those millions of dollars they hoped to earn.

So that's another possibility.
 
Thanks Again. I feel a lot less like a loony now that I have read of others experiences. Thankfully I do have a confidante, my long suffering husband, who listens carefully and helps me put whatever I've seen into a "box".
I hope that what I've seen is only (only?) somebody else's fantasy (it is cetainly not mine :nooo: :nooo: :nooo:)
 
I don't mean to come on like the uber-skeptic here, but if these unpleasant 'visions' aren't bona fide remote viewing or precognition there is really no need for them to come from outside at all. The idea of remotely receiving someone else's sick daydream or film plot is intriguing, but, in my opinion, seems less likely than you simply having your own unpleasant fantasy.

I don't normally do this personal type stuff on here, but I used to be plagued almost constantly by images of violent injury and death as part of my anxiety problems. I honestly don't think they were being beamed in from the minds of psychopathic serial killers, and nor am I a psychopathic serial killer myself, but my mind was still capable of manufacturing these scenes of horror it seemed pretty much specifically to torture itself. I'll be honest it never occured to me to wonder if the things I was 'seeing' were actually happening somewhere. In the end I was able to learn to trace the train of thought that had been completely invisible to me that led to these unpleasant thoughts and eventually to address the causes, and the grim and bloody visions stopped. It always seemed to me that I would be sitting there minding my own business when suddenly my head was full of knife rape and god knows what else, but in fact this was not the case. What was actually happening was that I would begin by thinking about a current problem or issue in my life, see that I was dealing with it badly and begin castigating myself for it and then tumble through this disfunctional reasoning into a state of extreme self-doubt that ended up with me experiencing what felt like involuntary thoughts of vivid horror that were actually just a kind of psychological self-harm.

By owning and understanding this mechanism I was able to stop it. This required self-work. I will not go so far as to say that I believe it is unhealthy to externalise the cause of something like this, but assuming, just for one moment, that this isn't telepathy (and without daring to invoke Occam), then perhaps it might be just a teensy bit more helpful to consider the occasions when these visions occur and your state of mind beforehand etc than to write it off as S.E.P.

Anyone who experiences ideation that they feel their own mind is incapable of creating is doing their mind a serious disservice, and you don't have to be 'loony', or a frustrated office worker with a dead end life, or some sort of psychic to experience extremely vivid and unpleasant mental imagery. We all have nightmares, and while I do not completely discount the possibility of the supernatural or paranormal, I don't have much problem in saying that 99% of nightmares are caused by the everyday stuff of brain chemistry and worry etc etc.

Even if they happen while you are awake.
 
Lizard said:
We all have nightmares, and while I do not completely discount the possibility of the supernatural or paranormal, I don't have much problem in saying that 99% of nightmares are caused by the everyday stuff of brain chemistry and worry etc etc.

HI Lizard : well, here we have the interesting situation whereby two posters have almost diametrically opposed points of view.

I readily accept your theory of " 99% of nightmares are caused by the everyday stuff of brain chemistry and worry etc etc " as it applies to you. It's great when people know themselves as well as you apparently do, because it assists (in theory) their understanding of others.

You say: " while I do not completely discount the possibility of the supernatural or paranormal ... "

Once again, we differ. You see I do not discount the possibility of the supernatural or paranormal anywhere near as largely as do you. But then, I've clearly experienced the paranormal far more often than you have.

So has Tilly. As is stated clearly in her original post, she has, since early childhood, known things which she could not have learned in the normal manner and these knowings have been accurate enough for others to find them disconcerting. Therefore, she has reason (past experience of the phenomenon) for concern re: her visions concerning the canoe-man.

Those with experience of precognition, clairvoyance, etc. no doubt have the same normal daydreams, fantasies, dreams, nightmares etc. as anyone else. I certainly do. Then there are the 'other' dreams, nightmares, etc. and visions. They have a distinct flavour, for want of a better word. Those who experience it know what I mean. No doubt each peson has his/her way of recognising the sensation or flavour. This recognition, of course, results from experience, in the same way we learn to distinguish between strawberry and vanilla ice-creams.

People have tried to describe and explain the manner in which paranormal-type dreams and visions differ from the mundane, but of course, it's as difficult as trying to explain how we know we're eating strawberry ice-cream rather than vanilla.

The proof of the pudding, of course, is in the eating (mmm, very dessert oriented post I'm composing here .. must be snack-time ). For some, the herald of a paranormal-type dream/daydream/vision/nightmare etc. is a certain, indefinable atmosphere, while for others it may be a specific clarity or the fact the dream or whatever does not fade in the way of ordinary dreams. Or it could be a combination or something other.

When the contents of the dream or envisaged scenario afterwards occur in reality, the individual learns to distinguish a paranormal experience from the mundane ... in the same way a child's taste-buds register certain effects associated with strawberry ice-cream. As soon as it tastes strawberry ice-cream again, even a year later, it experiences recognition ... even if it can't remember the word 'strawberry'. Most would simply say (regarding paranormal dreams/visions or precogntion): ' It's a feeling ... '. The more sophisticated might describe it as an aura. Most would claim the sensation is unmistakable. Thus we have mothers saying worriedly: ' Something bad's coming, I can feel it '. After the dreaded event has occurred, the mother will repeat to anyone who will listen: ' I knew it. I knew it. I could feel it in the air ... it started a week ago.'

Surprisingly, considering the alleged interest in the paranormal, a great many people do not like witnessing proof of hunches, intuition and the like. Oh, they'll chase ghosties all over the countryside, but present them with proof of precognition, hunches, intuition, clairvoyance, presentiment -- whatever you like to call it -- and people often react very dismissively and often become quite hostile. With regard to their wife or mother and her sensing that a family calamity was on the way, they'll say: ' Oh, pay no attention to her, she's barmy'. Quite often, if the mother says to them: ' I told you last Wednesday that this was in the air -- remember ?' ... the son or husband will reply falsely with: ' No. When did you say that? I don't remember.'

It didn't surprise me at all to learn that it was often friends and family who pointed the accusing finger at an alleged 'witch', years ago. There is a definite hostility towards those with what's termed sixth-sense. Whether it's due to jealousy or fear, who can say? Possibly both and more. After all, if someone's capable of knowing (a special kind of knowing) that John will/did steal Jack's cow, then what else do they know; what else can they see? Most people have secrets -- and they'd like them to remain secrets.

No-one particularly minds Nostradamus' or Mother Shipton's alleged prophetic visions but it's an entirely different matter when grandma or the old biddy down the road possesses the 'sight'. Too close to home and for comfort.

As well, the paranormal disturbs people. The more an individual is disturbed by it, the more precarious their own sense of security and hold on reality. Those who appreciate that there actually is no such thing as security and/or reality, accept the paranormal with far greater equanimity, I find.

Yes, the mind is infinitely inventive; I don't think too many would argue with you about that. It's a trickster. Our mind has a mind (at least one) of its own, very often. And we're just as often the last to know.

However, those with 'paranormal leanings or abilities' (for want of better term) have additional mysteries with which to contend. They have the usual imagination, dreams, nightmares, fantasies --- and they have the other stuff. There are no maps or traffic lights to guide them. Many are not particularly introspective or articulate and most do not enjoy this added complication to their lives. Many are confused and frightened. Some seek help or assistance or comfort. They're very often ridiculed, ostracised, avoided.

To be remembered is that there are many who have accurately described past and future events about which they can demonstrate they had no knowledge apart from dreams, visions, feelings or contact with non-living or non-human entities. There are those (small in number, admittedly) who have spoken in what for them was an unknown and foreign tongue. There are those who have suddenly chosen not to board a boat or plane or train which later met misfortune. There are individuals who've been visited by ghosts or spirits of the dead when the individual was unaware the person had died.

In fact, there is so much paranormal activity occuring at any one time that it's evident the paranormal is a normal component of reality !

All that glitters is not gold however, just as all claimed paranormal experiences are not the real deal.

But --- genuine gold exists in relative abundance; almost everyone has at some time worn a gold wedding band or signet ring or necklace. And ... almost everyone has at some time experienced the paranormal. In fact it would be a rare person who has not, whether or not they realised or acknowledged it as such at the time or afterwards.
 
Again is so right on all points.
I have had 50 years of learning the hard way to keep my mouth shut when I "know something without being told". I have lost friends because they could not understand how I knew what I knew.
There is a huge difference in fantasies and imaginings from my own head, and believe me I can have strong emotional fantasies just like anyone else, and the experiences of "seeing". They happen at anytime and have on occasion occurred at very inoportune (spelling?) moments. They feel like nothing else and are often so mundane as to be laughable (I mean who cares if I see someone I don't know pulling washing out of a machine?). The canoe man is only a fraction of what I do see, most of it totally banal, which is why, on the whole, I wish that my mind was closed to "seeing".
Now if I could predict something...
 
Sorry that you lost friends, Tilly. It's happened to me too. Sad, but never mind -- we make new ones, don't we. And your husband sounds lovely.

Years ago, when young, I shared a house with my boyfriend's two sisters. To be honest, I didn't get my feelings hurt when they had locks installed on their bedroom doors. I wasn't even miffed by the fact they hadn't told me they'd arranged it or by the fact they'd failed to ask me if I wanted to have one installed on my room at the same time. I couldn't afford it anyway. And their explanations about fear of break-ins sounded perfectly reasonable.

It was only after we all parted company, that one of them told me she couldn't believe I hadn't known why (at the time) they'd had the locks installed. It was because they thought I was a witch, she said. Well, it had been a long time (since childhood stories in fact) that I'd heard anyone mention witches. I laughed, thinking she was joking. But she wasn't. So then I was hurt and insulted (I was a little wuss back then)to the point I wouldn't even ask her why she was saying these things.

But she told me anyway.

Apparently, back when we were sharing a house, I used to get up in the middle of conversation around the kitchen table, and begin making the speical hot drink that my boyfriend liked. At other times, I'd light the gas under his meal, which was still warm from cooking, but covered and set to the side. Then there were the times I'd stop whatever I was doing and dash outside (night or day) and wrench open the old garage doors. Moments later, my boyfriend (their brother) would drive up the driveway and into the garage and then enter the house and look around for his meal or hot drink or whatever.

Pretty simple stuff, but it convinced them I was a witch, when we realise now that I was simply tuned-in to my boyfriend ( then the entire reason, I believed, for my existence).

Many years later, I was wooed by a lovely-seeming man. He had two young sons and in an attempt to persuade me to marry him, he would leap and bound up the street to my house with a rose between his teeth, a big box of chocolates in his hand, humming ballet music, and dressed only in a pair of football shorts in the middle of winter. Alongside him, roses in their teeth too, were his young sons, dressed in matching shorts. Together they would prance and pirouhette up the darkened street, twirling under the street lights and calling: ' Oh lovely lay -deeeee, lovely lay-deeeee, will you marry us --- pleeeeeeese '. You had to be there, I guess, but it was pretty charming, funny and different.

He was highly intelligent, hilariously funny, attractive and sexy, daring, courageous, interesting, great communicator, etc. Perfect, and I was swept away, to be honest. His sons were cute as buttons; big warm eyes, lovely little smiles, always taking my hand shyly or giving me a hug.

The reason I wouldn't marry him was entirely because of one of those dreams I'd had. It was short and to the point. In the dream, the man's children and my own two were playing together around a little grassy mound which actually existed a short way from his property. In the dream, I called to my children, as I had a hundred times, to say we had to go home now. When they didn't appear, I went to find them. As I approached the little mound, I saw my son's face (and that of the man's younger son) numb with shock. My son simply stared at me, unable to speak.

I climbed up the side of the mound, calling for my daughter. When I reached the top, there she lay, a gaping wound in her head and heavy, dark blood matted in her hair. She was lying there, pale and unmoving. My eyes rose to the man's oldest son. He stood there, an expression of satisfaction on his face and a cricket wicket in his hand.

End of dream. I awoke immediately. I knew that was it. Come hell or high water, I would not be putting my children in the kind of danger I'd been shown.

After that, whenever I went to the man's home, I watched my children like a hawk. It annoyed the man. Too bad. I refused to marry him. He insisted he'd convince me, nevertheless.

Time went by. Life would have been much easier for my children and me if I'd simply married him. But no.

I told a few close friends about my dream. They were incredulous. How could I base such an important decision on something as meaningless as a dream, they asked. You're being stupid, they said. You're going to lose him, they warned. It's just a dream, they insisted. They had dreams every night, they added. That's all they were -- dreams. They meant nothing.

Sure, I had lots of dreams that meant nothing too. But I also had other dreams and I'd learned to heed them.

Several years later, and the boy in the dream was in his teens. He'd been in a lot of trouble already, despite his angelic appearance. He'd set fire to a wild-life reserve. This was beyond dispute; the boys with him testified to precisely how he'd started the fire, then lit several others around the perimeter. He was found with petrol in a can next to his bike. He had matches in his pockets. He finally admitted it.

However, once he was sure the fire was well alight, he'd run home and called the fire brigade. He gave his name. Then, when fire-fighters arrived, he'd jumped into the thick of the carnage, screaming and wailing in distress about " all the poor little animals ". He'd made a big impression on the fire-fighters, initially; they said what a brave little guy he was and how he'd be welcome to join them when he was older; they needed decent guys like him.

Next, he'd set a homeless man's shack alight --- while the homeless man was still in it. It was in a semi-rural location, but he'd been spotted by several people who later identified him by the unusual T-shirt he'd been wearing. Once again, he called the fire-fighters and dashed around, under the pretence of helping them and the 'poor old man'. Only later did it come out that he'd been hanging around the shack for days, as witnessed by locals. And he'd boasted to school mates before and after the fact, about 'burning the old slob alive'.

He was big and heavy for his age. He became notorious as a bully of smaller children. He was a proven thief. He always denied everything, wailing piteously to his father, who used to become livid at the mere suggestion his sons would do anything wrong.

In the end, the boy became too much of an embarrassment to his father, who sent him to live with his mother. She threw in the towel after only a few weeks. The boy was then sent to a boarding school which had a reputation for straightening troublesome boys out. He was accepted mid-term. By term's end, he'd been expelled. During that time, he'd run the gamut of his usual crimes, bullying and theft being the most prevalent. One bullied boy apparently hung himself from a shed roof. There had been unexplained fires.

My male-friend's son was put to work scrubbing the empty school swimming pool with a toothbrush during the holidays and after his father refused to let him come home.

The father continued to press me to marry him, claiming his sons would turn over a new leaf if provided a happy combined family. He was extremely persuasive.

But nothing he could possible say had the power of that simple dream.

The dream didn't come true; I refused to let it.

However, if I hadn't had that dream, I may well have given in, after which the dream events may have occurred in reality.

After being kicked out of boarding school, the boy was then sent to his grandmother; a high-school teacher. Within four months, she'd had the shingles and a stroke. The boy was implicated in drug issues, theft, fires, bullying etc. He ran away to a southern city. He's still out there and I do not for a second regret my decision to protect my daughter from him. My daughter is alive and well. People can think whatever they like about it.

So don't worry about other people's opinions, Tilly. The only ones that matter are those whose opinions you respect and for that to occur, they'd have previously demonstrated respect for you and everything that makes you You :)
 
"Hat off" to you!
Glad you stuck with your decision. I can not foretell [sp?] any events but very often I can "see" or "feel" what has happened already [without knowing about it obviously...duh!].
Whta interested me was that two people here have been "accused" of being witches. The same happened to me and friends were lost. Completely normal [as it seems] people, who drive cars, work for mobile phone companies, smoke fags, go to the pub etc. suddenly actually really believe that you are a witch!!!?
Of course there are always precursors to their fears. Mine was pretty drastic.
As well as sometimes picking up on things happeneing at the same time elsewhere, I seem to be able to "do" stuff to others or their posessions etc.
Don't want to go into too much detail but it works best when I feel extreme emotions.
In this case my head, a car bonnet and a very violent bloke were involved[not a friend of ours], who loved his car more than anything else. When I was able to, I promised him that his car would not be for much longer. He laughed...
After a week, it came off a roundabout, ended on its back and was a total write-off.
He was just badly shaken, just what I wanted.

Well after that we noticed a certain friend of ours who knew this person, stopped contacting us. Later I found out that he blamed the difficulties in his relationship on ME!!!!
Truth is, I couldn't have cared less about his relationship and if anything I had tried to talk to both in order for them to stay TOGETHER.
Tsss...
Never mind. He had spread the stupid idea that I was a witch!

"I'm not a witch"
"What's with your nose then?"
"Its a false one."
"What?"
"Its a false one, they put it on me..."
[Monty Python - Holy Grail]
 
Well, of course, my experience of the paranormal is an unknown quantity to you, again6, unless, naturally, you've got the measure of me through your own abilities. I am not afraid of those abilities, if you have them, I don't feel the need to debunk your or Tilly's stories in order to impose order on my universe. I too find it interesting that many people who profess to be complete skeptics are sometimes uncomfortable with these things, but there are clearly many possible reasons for this, including, of course, the concept that their skepticism is a method for controlling their own irrational fears, among others.

I'm really not discounting the possibility that you and others have a 'special gift', nor that being special has its downside. I am just questioning, in, I hope, the friendliest possible way, how far you are prepared to go to defend that specialness through increasingly baroque supernatural explanations when there are perfectly acceptable non-supernatural ones just going begging.

I mean if something with the 'flavour'of a clairvoyant event turns out not to be vision of real events, then it is a telepathic reading of a fantasy ... but what if it's not that? Why not a vision of a parallel universe, or an alternate time line, or another planet? Why not CIA mind control, or an experiment by aliens? Perhaps there is a war in heaven being played out down the centuries in the minds of men. Or it could be Owlman and Mothman having a bet to see who can freak out the most sensitives.

It could, afterall, be a symbolic message of personal relevance from the slumbering lunar brain, as dreams often are.

Or it could just be unpleasant, involuntary ideation.

In actual fact, as the OP has expressed the desire to not have these experiences, whatever the cause of them, I imagine they can be better controlled with psychological work than by heaping speculation upon speculation in reinforcing their questionable validity.
 
I don't think anyone sets out to be clairvoyant or similar. It usually happens that they think their thoughts are exactly as you say either from within or some sort of daydream. However, as was previously explained, lets say one of those visions happens to become real. Sure at first it is taken as coincidence and further visions are still classed as daydreams but then it happens again and again. Now you start to learn the subtle differences between those pesky little brain activities and something that feels/ looks completely different. Now you know when you have one again that it could well be something more.
Lets say it happens once more and the event is following. You have confirmation.

This is not just a thought idea, this is happening to many people. Surely they can't all be complete naive morons who mistake simple fantasies with an experience that is so different you can only understand it when you had it?
Some may be but not all!
 
Lizard said:
I don't have much problem in saying that 99% of nightmares are caused by the everyday stuff of brain chemistry and worry etc etc
.

You may not have much problem in saying it, as long as you remember to restrict your 99% figure to your own nightmares and experiences.

You said:
The idea of remotely receiving someone else's sick daydream or film plot is intriguing, but, in my opinion, seems less likely than you simply having your own unpleasant fantasy.

Once again a generalisation that has as its basis your own unpleasant visions. What applies to you is not necessarily true of others, however.

while I do not completely discount the possibility of the supernatural or paranormal ....

Hi Lizard ! No, your experience of the paranormal is not an 'unknown quantity' to me or to anyone who reads your above statement. A re-reading of it will enable you to see that you have defined your limited experience of the paranormal, when you state you do not completely discount the possibility of the paranormal/supernatural.

' Not completely' is another way of saying 'almost completely'. So, anyone reading your comment would gather that what you wished to convey was: ' I almost completely discount the possibility/reality of the paranormal/supernatural'.

You prefaced the comment with: '
I don't mean to come on like the uber-skeptic here '
.

But wouldn't someone who almost completely discounts the possibility of the paranormal/supernatural BE a uberskeptic ?


If you'd stated that you do not completely discount the possibility of motor vehicles, the only possible conclusion to be drawn would be that you have very rarely seen, travelled in or experienced motor vehicles. Others, however, have enormous experience of and with motor vehicles.

Or, had you said you do not completely discount the possibility of sexual intercourse, people would be forced to the conclusion you had very limited experience of sex. Others, however, have enormous experience of and with sexual intercourse.

I do not (completely or otherwise) discount the possibility of sky-diving, for instance. But while I have no experience of sky-diving, I nevertheless know that out there in the big wide world there are thousands of people who do regularly sky-dive. For this reason, I do not enter discussions in sky-diving forums and announce I do not completely discount the possibility of sky-diving.

My comment to you was as follows:
Once again, we differ. You see I do not discount the possibility of the supernatural or paranormal anywhere near as largely as do you. But then, I've clearly experienced the paranormal far more often than you have.

Can you see now how I came to make that comment ? If you had experienced the paranormal ------ you could not/would not have stated: 'I do not completely discount the possibility of the paranormal/supernatural ' ..... because such a statement would not make sense.

I on the other hand, have experienced the paranormal/supernatural, therefore I do not (completely or otherwise) discount it ... as you 'almost' do.

Ergo: (as I stated) ' I've clearly experienced the paranormal far more often than you have'. (Because obviously, if you've experienced something, you don't 'almost or 'not completely' discount it ).

Regrettably, you appear to have translated my comment as one-upmanship, when in fact it was simply the logical interpretation of your own declaration.

You go on to say:
I am just questioning ..... how far you are prepared to go to defend that specialness through increasingly baroque supernatural explanations when there are perfectly acceptable non-supernatural ones just going begging

After which you suggest some increasingly baroque supernatural explanations yourself, such as:
Why not a vision of a parallel universe, or an alternate time line, or another planet? Why not CIA mind control, or an experiment by aliens? Perhaps there is a war in heaven being played out down the centuries in the minds of men. Or it could be Owlman and Mothman having a bet to see who can freak out the most sensitives
.

Lizard, do you regard Owlmen and Mothman betting on who can freak out the most sensitives, Wars in Heaven played out through the minds of men, CIA mind-control, Parallel Universes to be
perfectly acceptable non-supernatural explanations just going begging
?

Don't you need to work out which side of the fence you want to be seen as occupying? Particularly before you make pronouncements and nominate percentages, etc. regarding the validity of someone else's experiences and especially when that person stated (at the outset and since) that she (Tilly) has had these experiences most of her life.

You suggest Owlmen, Mothmen, CIA-operatives, Parallel Universes, Heavenly beings playing games with mankind. Is this an example of the almost-complete disbelief in the paranormal which you've claimed?

You suggest:
It could, afterall, be a symbolic message of personal relevance from the slumbering lunar brain, as dreams often are.
.... yet I think I remember Tilly stating at the outset that her visions of canoe-man were not dreams; she was not asleep when she saw him. I can't open another window at the moment, but I'll check it later on.

Scepticism is valid.
Not-knowing is perfectly fine too.
As is believing one does know a thing or two.

So let's not quibble or squabble. We're all on the same side :)
 
/edit/apologies- this was in reply to Dingo's post above:

Once again I am really not questioning this, although I have yet personally to be convinced of it, and I don't think, as far as I can tell, I am calling anyone a moron.

What I *am* questioning is this descent into increasing levels of abstraction to avoid being 'wrong'.

I am wrong all the time, in my personal and professional and everyday life, even in areas in which I am highly skilled and experienced. I misperceive and I misunderstand and I misjudge, I make mistakes, I get confused and I forget things.

But the message I am getting here is that a 'clairvoyant experience' *can't* be wrong, because you won't let it be. You say 'I see things that have just happened that I can't possibly know about' and then you see one that hasn't happened and you don't say 'oh well, guess I was wrong on this one' you backpedal and squirm out of it by making it telepathy instead of remote viewing, like a stage medium saying 'a name beginning with S ... no P ... no .... E" etc until someone bites.

For all the talk of the victimisation and perturbation these 'special gifts' can bring, there is something very sniffy about the 'you don't agree therefore you are a muggle and a muggle like you will never understand' attitudes I am sensing with my own rather fine abilities here, which, along with the inability to accept ever being wrong, and the fear of persecution smacks very much of a desire to be special.

Dingo's anecdote, wherein she believes she caused someone to have a car accident, but when someone else believes it also they have the 'stupid idea' that she's a witch is the absolute epitome of this air of superiority and paranoia surrounding the whole business.

I can see the powerful attraction of the martyrdom of the superior victim, I really can, it's a very old story. I can see that distancing yourself from grisly imaginings by putting them in someone else's head first might get you through the day. In actual fact I can even see several models of reality I'm prepared, from time to time, to entertain where that would actually be a possibility. But mainly what I'm seeing is a bunch of true believers wallpapering over the cracks in their stories and bigging up their roles and shoring up each others delusions out of mutual need.

I guess this party's not for me.
 
As Dingo said, most people don't seek these experiences. Very often they're spontaneous -- troubling -- unwanted.

The movies often portray psychics as exotic, charismatic, dramatic, etc. But in the real world, psychics are often extremely ordinary. They don't refer to themselves as psychic, as a rule. They don't enjoy attention or scrutiny. Usually, they conceal their experiences. Often they deny them, even to themselves. In most cases, members of their immediate family find the psychic thing irritating and/or embarrassing, for some reason.

Those who're naturally psychic often make extra effort to appear more ordinary, more practical, more down to earth and less complex than those around them, in order to be liked and/or so they won't be rejected.

The following is an example of a typical, spontaneous, 'psychic' experience:

Woman is vacuuming the floor. She lives in the sub-tropics, in Australia. The sun is streaming through the typically open-plan house. Her eyes, naturally, are open. Before her field of vision are the carpet and tiles she is cleaning. At some point, other pictures flood her vision -- whether externally or internally is irrelevant really.

What she sees are what appear to be pieces of photos from a newspaper, cut into irregular shapes. What is imprinted upon them is in black and white. She struggles to understand for only an instant. Then the images of bits of photos are gone and she's back to vacuuming the floor again, as per normal. She forgets about the experience almost immediately.

The following day at roughly the same time, she is again vacuuming the floor. At some point, she again sees the pieces of newspaper, only this time, she glimpses briefly what is on them. They don't make sense. Similar to scattered pieces of a jig-saw in fact. Once again she struggles with confusion for a moment. Then again, the moment is gone and her world returns to normal. She forgets about the incident.

Next day, the situation is repeated. Only this time, some of the bits of black and white jig-saw sort of join together to form a fraction of what must be a picture. For instance, this time she's able to make out a section of bare leg and within another group of joined-bits-of-jig-saw, she sees a bit of an item of furniture. Struggles with this for a second. Then forgets it.

As the days pass, more bits of the black and white jig-saw link up and provide her with larger sections of the overall picture.

More days along, and the joined-bits are getting larger and it's easier for her to make out what they represent. By now, she's remembering all this marginally longer than at first, to the extent she wonders what on earth is going on. Then she forgets it again and gets on with life.

After a couple of weeks, the black and white bits of jig-saw have pretty much joined up. Now she's getting flashes of complete pictures. In content, at that stage, it's all a bit like an old 1940's movie, with everything in black and white, heavily shadowed like a noir film.

A bit later again and the pictures begin to contain a bit of movement. It still doesn't make sense. She doesn't know what it is she's seeing, apart from the fact a man and woman are in the scenes. All pretty ordinary. The man is standing in what looks like a kitchen in some of the scenes. In others, the woman is lying on a sofa, one bare leg dangling. There's a bit of window included. Some old fashioned furniture. She can never see their faces.

Then, as things progress, day by day, the woman begins to see things in colour. More days pass, and now there's sound. The man and woman begin moving and talking. The continuity is poor though. Sometimes there's a bit of a scene in a living room, followed by a brief glimpse of what's going on in a bedroom, and then back to the kitchen, with a curtain blowing in the wind.

She hears laughter between the man and woman in these scenes. All very brief. Then the sounds of their voices arguing. Then just ordinary conversation and so on. Chopped up. Still poor continuity.

By this time, the woman is quite concerned. She's never had this particular experience before. She's worried.
Why is this happening to her?
What is causing it?
Where are these visions coming from?
Who are they about -- who are the man and woman she's seeing and hearing bits of?
Why is this happening to her?

For the first time in her life, she worries that she might be going insane for some reason. Yet it's one of the most stable, contented periods she's ever experienced.
She worries that she might have a brain tumour. She doesn't think she has a brain tumour, but she can't think of any other explanation.

She conceals it from everyone.
Finally, unable to deal with it any longer, she confides in someone she trusts. They haven't heard of anything exactly like it before, but they reassure her that she's not insane and the visions or whatever they are will undoubtedly pass.

The visions continue. She is highly uncomfortable about what she's being shown. She feels as if she's an unwilling fly on the wall, privy to the private lives of the man and woman in the visions. It's their private life. She doesn't want to invade their privacy, doesn't want to participate in all this, but she has no choice. Closing her eyes doesn't make the pictures go away.

Then --- one morning she awakens and knows the identity of the man and woman !

She knows them both, intimately.

This is the background; the cast list:

Bob and Jane are married.
Jack is Bob's colleague. They work at the same company. Jack is single.

Bob and Jane often invite Jack to dinners they hold and sometimes see him at the functions they attend.

One day, Jane's sister Sally comes to visit and attends a party with Bob and Jane. At the party, Sally meets Jack. They immediately form a very strong and strange attachment.

Jane is unhappy about the situation and advises her sister Sally to avoid Jack because he's an alcoholic and 'strange' and considered odd and unusual by most.

Jane is a very dominant, controlling individual. She rules her husband Bob and is extremely manipulative and dishonest.

Sally is naive. She knows Jane has a difficult personality, but she bends with it. She loves her sister Jane a great deal. She also loves Jack. When Jack comes to pick up Sally (at her sister Jane's home) to take her out, Jane always makes sarcastic comments about the relationship and Jack. Sally travels interstate to stay with her sister Jane as often as possible for years, in order to be with Jack.

Jack finally confides to Sally that he dislikes Jane very much; despises her in fact. He sees through Jane, but tolerates her for the sake of his friendship with Jane's husband Bob, who is the world's nicest man.

Throughout 20-odd years, Sally and Jack maintain a unique relationship. Sally has married twice. Jack has not married at all. He tells Sally and anyone else who's interested that if he can't have Sally, he'd prefer to go it alone. At the same time, he's proud and stubborn and has no intention of playing doormat. Instead, he takes himself off to the most remote parts of the world for several years at a stretch, during which he and Sally write to each other infrequently. Very occasionally, they spend a day or so together. Jack has remained a morose and difficult alcoholic, which is why Sally has never married him.

Sally's sister Jane is scathing of Sally and Jack's long-distance relationship. Jane informes Sally that Jack is revolting, useless, a moral coward, despicable. Jane repeatedly tells Sally how much she loathes Jack. Jack speaks similarly about Jane to Sally.

Both Jane and Jack have long since departed the town in which Jane and her ex-husband Bob lived for so many years, and in which Sally met Jack.

Separately, both Jane and Jack tell Sally how much they always hated that town. They say they will never live in that town again. Jack and Jane have had no contact for many years. Their only common ground is Sally, who is in touch with both of them, separately.

During those twenty odd years, Bob and Jane divorced. Bob raised the children. Jane took to the New Age circuit, thanks to Bob's unfailing generosity and continuance to support Jane in the style she demanded.

Jane's problematic personality worsened severely. She is violent on occasion and controlling of others to the point of seeming insanity. Her sister Sally is forced to sever all connection with Jane. She does it via legal means. When this occurs, Jane becomes completely irrational. She will not allow anyone to even mention Sally's name. She vows to 'get even' with Sally. Jane's ex-husband and grown children warn Sally that Jane has drifted into an alarming group who fancy themselves modern day magicians/witches. One of Jane's daughters warns Sally that she has witnessed Jane and other members of the group sitting in a circle, with burning candles all around. They are chanting in unison as Jane sticks long pins into a small effigy of Sally. Sally dismisses this as she believes there's nothing she can do.

However, when Sally's parents also warn her that Jane is intent on destroying her, Sally decides to see if she can neutralise Jane's obsessive hatred so that no-one will be harmed. Sally buys a little book about mediation.

Sally has had psychic experiences all her life and has been badly frightened by some of them. She has read that novice meditators are sometimes plagued by unwanted, terrifying entities while they're meditating. Because of her psychic tendencies and general fears, Sally has previously avoided meditation for this reason. She hopes some mild meditation might be able to neutralise her sister Jane's animosity while at the same time evade the terrifying visions which reportedly stalk beginner meditators.

The meditation she chooses is very mild and consists only of breathing to count while transmitting love to her sister Jane and others.

For one or two weeks, each evening, Sally practices this simple meditative routine. During the breathing-to-count, she envisages a big plump pink heart shape, which she attempts to mentally 'beam' to her estranged sister Jane, while pulsing love to her and to the rest of the world generally.

It is shortly afterwards, that Sally begins to experience the first black and white jig-saw visions while she's vacuuming.

When Sally wakes up knowing the identity of the man and woman in the visions, she is distraught at first. For the man and woman are Jack and her sister Jane.

Sally has had numerous highly accurate precognitive dreams and visions during her life.

She senses that what she has seen in the visions is yet to come. In which case, she still has time to prevent Jack (the man with whom she has such a strong, unbreakable bond) from living with her sister Jane.

Sally ponders the ethics of interfering. At the same time, she really does not want Jack to live with her sister Jane. She suspects Jane would deliberately live with Jack simply to hurt her.

Sally cannot understand the visions, for both Jack and Jane have repeatedly claimed to despise each other.

It's a dark night of the soul for Sally. She could successfully interfere and prevent the visions from becoming reality. All she would need to do would be to contact Jack and extract from him a promise that he would not, no matter what, live with Jane. If Jack made a promise to her, he would honour it, she knew. Sally was very tempted to contact Jack.

She didn't do so however. She knew she must respect the rights of Jack and Jane to make their own decisions. It was none of her business.

At around this time, Sally experienced what felt like visitations from a very calm and understanding, yet invisible entity. Sally sensed this person was a woman; a very wise and compassionate one. Nothing exactly like this had ever happened to Sally before. She wondered if she were imagining it. But was forced to the realisation that impossible though it seemed, it was actually happening. The woman was a very subtle, yet powerful presence. Sally never actual saw her. The woman strengthened Sally at this time; gave her courage and in some way, imparted wisdom and acceptance. The woman possessed a very quiet sadness and goodness. Sally believed -- for reasons never understood -- that the woman was her father's aunt, whom Sally of course had never met or seen and about whom she knew virtually nothing. It's highly possible that Sally was receiving information while she slept about which she remembered nothing when she awoke. It's the only explanation she has for her conviction regarding (a) the woman's presence and (b) the woman's identity.

Sally had made her decision, thanks to the woman's wisdom and support. She would not interfere in what she believed would occur.

Having made the decision and prepared herself for the pain it would cause her, Sally decided that something positive should emerge from the experience: it should be used as a means via which others might gain belief in psychic phenomena; in precognition, etc.

Accordingly, Sally organised herself. She telephoned all those who might be affected by the foreseen future events:
Jane's ex-husband Bob
Jane's daughters
Jane's (and Sally's) parents and siblings and other family members

In matter of fact tones, Sally informed the above that Jane and Jack would move in together, would live together most likely in an intimate relationship.

Without exception, all those so informed expressed total disbelief. Jack and Jane didn't like each other, they said. The suggestion was thus ridiculous. They dismissed it out of hand.

Sally replied that despite this, she wanted to establish the fact before it occurred. She asked those she contacted to please make a note of the date of this conversation, and its contents. Then, when the predicted events took place, there could be no disputing the fact that they had learned it in advance. Sally explained she had learned about future events concerning Jack and Jane from a series of highly complex visions delivered over several weeks. She wanted people to know that precognition was real, was accurate. Please note the date upon which I told you this, she asked again. People grumpily agreed to do so, although their remarks and tone implied Sally was a nut case.

Sally was left to wait it out. She beamed love and unconditional acceptance to Jack and Jane as often as she felt able. Then she got on with her life. She would not interfere and that was that.

At the time Sally experienced the visions, Jane was in the United States and Jack was on a South Pacific island. Jane was scheduled to remain in the United States for a minimum of one year and Jack resided on the island permanently. It seemed highly unlikely that the visions would be enacted in reality.

For several months, Sally received no contact from anyone, not even her parents. Sally had now fully accepted the loss of Jack from her life. She consciously wished him well and dealt with her own selfish pain.

Finally, many months after receiving the visions, Sally learned from her sister Jane's ex-husband, by accident, that Jack and Jane had been living together for several months, in the town both had vowed never to return to.

Jane's ex-husband Bob said it was the strangest thing. Jane had gone to the United States with much fanfare. Yet two weeks later, without explanation, she had returned. Shortly afterwards, she had bumped into Jack, who had also -- against all odds -- had recently returned to the same town. Jane had apparently asked Jack for a loan of his house keys. Jack had tossed them to her. When he returned to the house he was renting, it was to discover Jane already in residence.

Sally lost her breath for a moment. In a way, it was as if she was hearing all this for the first time. It did hurt. But she held it down and reminded Bob that she'd forseen this event several months earlier and had informed him of what would occur. Bob mumbled a response and concluded the conversation. This pattern was repeated by the others whom Sally had told. No-one wished to acknowledge Sally's precognition, even though she said several times that she was not responsible for the precognition; that it had been dumped on her. She wasn't seeking credit -- if that's what people thought -- for none was due to her. She simply wished to enrich people's lives by showing them that life is predetermined, although by whom or what she was unable to say.

People didn't want to be 'enriched'; they did not want proof of precognition. They didn't like it and they didn't like Sally for bringing it to their attention. They froze her out. Sally was ostracised at the same time she was described as a weirdo by even her own father and brother.

Sally was quietly amazed by the experience. She was proud of herself for not interfering and for allowing Jack and Jane free will. Most of all, she was thankful for the woman whose presence had added a heavenly dimension to the entire experience and for the gentle, sensitive manner in which the potentially distressing information had been delivered to her, one jig-saw segment at a time, over such a lengthy period.

Sally still cared for Jack, but suspected there was something not entirely healthy in her emotional dependence upon him. She set about freeing herself of his influence, via visualisations she read in a book, consisting of imagining Jack sitting on a little cloud, tethered to a tree in her garden via a rope. Sally envisaged herself in shining armour and taking a magic sword, she severed the rope. Then she envisaged Jack's cloud drifting free, further and further away. She blessed him and waved goodbye.

She repeated this process many times. She didn't know how she'd know it had worked, if it ever did.

Months later, in the new house she'd moved to, Sally was drawing the curtain at dusk one night. Jack was the last thing in her mind. Yet unexpectedly, as she stared at the sunset and closed the curtains, Sally felt a strange sensation -- exactly as if something had been lifted from her shoulders. Then, as if a voice had told her, she knew what it meant. Jack had been removed. Finally ! After more than 25 years ! It felt good ! Sally was her own person again.

The following day, out of the blue, Jack phoned Sally. She shook her head in wonderment at the mechanics of the world. Jack wanted to see her. He must see her, he said. He'd obtained her new phone number in a circuitious way.

Sally agreed to see Jack. She wanted to test if he really had been removed from her life.

Jack was full of convoluted explanations, once he learned Sally knew of his live-in relationship with her estranged sister. Jack was reluctant to hear Sally tell him that it was fine, ok. No harm done. Don't worry.

He wanted to believe that Sally was filled with jealousy and anger. He was very disappointed when he discovered this was not the case. Sally felt sorry for him in a way. He truly had been removed from her life. She could see him clearly now. She never had before. She felt nothing for him. In fact, she didn't like him at all. Incredible after all those years of emotional enslavement.

There was a shocking moment when, as she looked at him, half of his face appeared like that of a partially decomposed corpse. It was as if the skin had rotted from that half of his face, revealing physical corruption beneath. It sickened her. She didn't know what it signified and it took all her control not to betray her revulsion.

Sally said farewell to Jack. She's never looked back.

So that's a true story of psychic phenomena. As I hope I've made clear, it was completely spontaneous. The recipient, Sally, was not responsible for any of it, at conscious level. She doesn't regard herself as at all 'special' or gifted. She's an ordinary person leading an ordinary life. She doesn't get much opportunity to discuss these experiences, apart from anonymously, in forums such as this -- which I suspect is the case with most who experience psychic/supernatural/paranormal phenomena. Being psychic is as much a choice as is the colour of one's eyes.
 
I'm glad you were able to get the hissy-fit out of your system, Lizard :)

Now that's out of the way, why not come back and leave all those preconceived opinions etc. at the door.

You're here in a Forteana forum. Yet when you come across people discussing their individual items of personal Forteana, your response is to try to have a foot on either side of the fence while you tell them they didn't really have the experience they've just described.

Yes, people do have psychic experiences.

Yes, people are firm in their convictions regarding their own experiences.

From all you've written, you have some sort of personal grudge/resentment against those who've had genuine psychic experience.

But that's your problem, not theirs.

They don't have to change to suit you. This is a Fortean forum. People have come to the right place to discuss their experiences.

If as claimed, you barely credit the reality of psychic phenomena, maybe you'd find discussion more to your liking in a sceptics' forum ?

I mean, what kind of response should I expect to receive if I began recounting my psychic experiences within a sceptics forum?

Your little rant was a bit unfortunate:

But the message I am getting here is that a 'clairvoyant experience' *can't* be wrong, because you won't let it be. You say 'I see things that have just happened that I can't possibly know about' and then you see one that hasn't happened and you don't say 'oh well, guess I was wrong on this one' you backpedal and squirm out of it by making it telepathy instead of remote viewing, like a stage medium saying 'a name beginning with S ... no P ... no .... E" etc until someone bites.

Eh? Where did all that come from? Have you been cut and pasting from someone else's little rant re: Doris Stokes or Edwards, lol ?

What on earth are you talking about? Where in this thread has there been any attempt at stage psychism or anything else referred to in your misdirected diatribe?

For all the talk of the victimisation and perturbation these 'special gifts' can bring, there is something very sniffy about the 'you don't agree therefore you are a muggle and a muggle like you will never understand' attitudes I am sensing with my own rather fine abilities here, which, along with the inability to accept ever being wrong, and the fear of persecution smacks very much of a desire to be special
.

Lizard; you have just described your own attitude to a T, sorry.

Dingo's anecdote, wherein she believes she caused someone to have a car accident, but when someone else believes it also they have the 'stupid idea' that she's a witch is the absolute epitome of this air of superiority and paranoia surrounding the whole business.

And you just did it again.

I can see the powerful attraction of the martyrdom of the superior victim, I really can, it's a very old story. I can see that distancing yourself from grisly imaginings by putting them in someone else's head first might get you through the day. In actual fact I can even see several models of reality I'm prepared, from time to time, to entertain where that would actually be a possibility. But mainly what I'm seeing is a bunch of true believers wallpapering over the cracks in their stories and bigging up their roles and shoring up each others delusions out of mutual need.

Grand mal hissy fit.

Look Lizard, I feel sorry for you, I do. You boxed yourself into a corner with your conflicting stated beliefs and disbeliefs and your grandiose but totally unqualified analyses and pronouncements, complete with dubious statistics. Basically, you were calling people liars. Being polite in such circumstances does not always mean you'll get away with it.

What you're sensing with your self-described 'own rather fine abilities' is simple disagreement on the part of people who do just happen to know what they're talking about when it comes to certain psychic phenomena.

No plots. No cliques. Just some people not particularly keen to suffer fools this time around.

What you tried to do was tell others what to believe and disbelieve --- at the same time you had no clear idea what you believe in.

That was just a bit over-ambitious, considering the company.

But it's all water under the bridge so why not come back when you've cooled down :)
 
Whoa there, people! Aint nuthin' wrong with questioning and testing experiences and/or interpretations. Scepticism can be good for the field of the paranormal, for it filters out the gullible, misleading and poorly-reasoned. However I could claim abso-bally-anything on this message board and it would be as difficult for anyone to say "it didn't happen to you" as it would for me to prove it did. "Uber-scepticism" to my way of thinking is, in fact, the utter denial of anything paranormal despite any proof, witnesses and historical record. It isn't scepticism, it's denial.

Having an open mind doesn't mean accepting everything at face value.
 
Uh huh. Fine. But 'whoa there' what?

The original poster, Tilly, was quite sure of the reality of her experience. She'd experienced many similar.

Subsequent posters were convinced of the reality of Tilly's experience and of their own in similar vein.

The discussion concerned possible sources for Tilly's visions and what might be done regarding intervention of the canoe-man's activities.

Not all threads seek unqualified, sceptical appraisal regarding the validity of a poster's reported experience. This one did not. The validity of Tilly's post was unquestioningly accepted. Still is.

The self-appointed sceptic in this instance came out of left field, in complete discord with the thread thus far. The sceptic-poster recounted a bizarre set of experiences regarding themselves; had diagnosed themselves and apparently believed that his/her own disturbing experiences and self-diagnosis in some way qualified him/her to pronounce Tilly's (up to this stage unquestioned visions) as originating from her own fantasies, mental disturbances, etc. in accordance with the sceptic-poster's own self-analysis.

That's not considered scepticism; it's rank ego.

The sceptic-poster revealed he was unclear in his/her own mind about just about everything under discussion, but he had a great deal to say about it nonetheless and was under the apparent belief his/her pronouncements required to be accorded deference. There was no mutual agreement.

Resultant hissy-fit. Win some, lose some. And the sceptic-poster might possibly win more if he/she had some idea what he/she actually believed prior to telling others what they should believe.

Posters here are under no obligation to humour those who enter discussions merely in order to run against the tide as attention or ego fodder.

Sceptics need to know precisely what their point is, and do a damn good job of articulating and justifying their chosen stance, before trivialising, minimising and straight out denying what another poster has submitted as true.

Or those sceptics can expect to be treated with the same scepticism as they have chosen to mete out to others. I'm sure you agree.





.
 
Again6, there are many things I disagree with in your interpretations of Liz's posts, but just to take the most obvious:
again6 said:
'Not completely' is another way of saying 'almost completely'. So, anyone reading your comment would gather that what you wished to convey was: 'I almost completely discount the possibility/reality of the paranormal/supernatural'.

You prefaced the comment with: '
I don't mean to come on like the uber-skeptic here '

But wouldn't someone who almost completely discounts the possibility of the paranormal/supernatural BE a uberskeptic ?
Firstly, not everyone reads 'not completely' as 'almost completely'. Liz is usually pretty good at expressing her meaning, and I'm sure the subtle difference between the two expressions are not lost on her.

Similarly, someone who almost completely discounts the possibility of the paranormal/supernatural is certainly not an uberskeptic. An uberskeptic would completely discount it. No 'almost' about it. ;)


I also think you completely misunderstood Liz's use of 'increasingly baroque supernatural explanations'. She's not offering them as alternatives to your own explanations, but to illustrate what happen when you shift said explanations - in this case, when you go from "it's a premonition" to "you're tapping into someone else's daydream/plot idea".


As Stormy said, asking questions is part of the Fortean process.

[Edit]
And just to reply to your subsequent post...
again6 said:
Not all threads seek unqualified, sceptical appraisal regarding the validity of a poster's reported experience. This one did not. The validity of Tilly's post was unquestioningly accepted. Still is.
It clearly isn't if at least one poster has emitted some reservations. Whether you agree or not with said reservations doesn't mean they are worthless and can just be disregarded.

Resultant hissy-fit. Win some, lose some. And the sceptic-poster might possibly win more if he/she had some idea what he/she actually believed prior to telling others what they should believe.
IMO, Forteans don't necessarily 'believe' anything. They question. Unquestioning belief is more about faith than Forteanism.

Posters here are under no obligation to humour those who enter discussions merely in order to run against the tide as attention or ego fodder.
Nor are they under any obligation to blindly accept what another poster has said. Liz did not, as far as I see, call anyone a liar - she offered possible alternative explanations. You didn't agree with them, fair enough - but resorting to ad-hominem insults is hardly going to convince anyone.
 
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