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Does Magick Work?

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carole

Gone But Not Forgotten
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The other day, in need of something to read while having a solitary coffee in a cafe, instead of buying a magazine, I got a little book of Pocket Spells. Some of them sound rather useful. Does anyone on this board practise magick? Do any of these spells actually work?

Carole
 
I think magick is a bit more complicated than to be something you can fit into a little book. You may be better off reading Crowley's 'Magick In Theory and Practice' to get to the source.
 
Or Dr. I.E. Bonewits' (who is a Dr. of Thaumaturgy :rolleyes: )"Real Magic". Although he has a burr up his butt over psi...

Niles "If Magic is Spelt Magick should Occult be spelt Ockult?" Calder
 
Reading Magick in theory and practice will probably just confuse you if you don't know anything about the subject. You should maybe sneak up on it from the side by reading stuff by Robert Anton Wilson et al. I reckon the most important thing is to read enough stuff to convince yourself that it's actually a real possibility and then work from there. I suppose it depends which type of magic(k?) you mean.
 
Hi Carole
A really useful and informative book (yet one that's easy to understand) is Scott Cunningham's 'Wicca - a guide for the solitary practitioner'.

In my experience, yes Magick does work, but it's a pretty unremarkable thing in general - the things your little book professes to be able to do is just tinsel for people who don't ask the sort of question you have IMHO.

Magick tends to need a focus or a trigger to help it along, which is why so many religions use it in whatever form.

Good topic.
 
Ah, but does Wicca actually contain any 'Magick'? As I understand, the term 'Magick' has been appropriated to mean many things, rather than the stuff Crowley came up with.
 
well, yes it does.
Wicca is a Pagan religion, the practitioners of which use Magick in it's natural low form (not high ceremonial Magick as per Crowley etc.) for the good of all, although some may use it more than others and it is always used as a last resort, when normal methods can't be applied, but all Wiccans have the belief and knowledge of Magick.
 
So in essence they have appropriated the word for their own belief system?
 
not really.....just chosen to practice that which most feel comfortable with and left the other stuff for other people. :)
 
How can you tell if it works, if all it can do is pretty unremarkable?
Most of us like to be convinced by something obvious, but it seems that the effects of magick are not obvious.
Religious people have the same problem - they can't prove God exists because God doesn't regularly demonstrate his power in an obvious way.
I'm still not convinced, even though I've tried a bit of magick myself.
 
Well, Crowley claimed to have summoned up a partial materialisation of his guardian angle, IIRC. That's quite remarkable - if true.........
 
According to Crowley summoning up your Guardian Angel is the only true purpose for magick. Magick could be considered as a method for advancing or evolving yourself, bringing yourself closer to your inherent divine nature. Therefore whether it works or not is subjective, really. When you get into it you could find that the lines between reality and fantasy blur slightly and your whole concept of reality can change.
 
I would recommend reading and performing the exercises from
The Magician's Workbook by Donald Tyson
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0738700002/
followed by
Modern Magick by Donald M Kraig
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875423248/
to anyone who is interested in beginning the study/practice of magic(k) of whatever flavour (wicca, ceremonial blah blah)
Books from Llewellyn are often disparaged by "serious occultists" but these two titles in particular are a great place to start if you know very little .....
.... oh and of course magic works!!!!

[Emp edit: tidying up Amazon URLs.]
 
The thing is, magick is pretty much an exercise for self-enlightenment, or at least heightened self-awareness. (Despite his faults, I think Crowley was aware of this). I'd argue that this is not what people commonly think 'magick' is. Alot of modern books on the subject seem to be very materialistic, trying to bring the whole subject back into the scope of Medieval magic (spells for love, money, etc..).
 
That is certainly true of a lot of what is commonly called "the western esoteric tradition", which generally has something to do with what the Golden Dawn etc were up to .... but this is far from the only type of magic(k) ..... it's that old thaumaturgy v. theurgy thing .... there's magic(k) for becoming / becoming closer to etc "god" in some form, the goal of spiritual advancement etc and there's magic(k) for getting a new car etc ... it is all about the raising and directing of energies (be they states of consciousness, facets of the personality or "spirits" depending on how you look at it and what you are doing).
I agree when Quicksilver says "it's a pretty unremarkable thing" ... if you perform an operation to get a new car you do NOT generally wake up the next morning to find a new car on your driveway ping out of thin air .... but you may get that new job that pays more that you just applied for and so be able to afford a new car, or, if you are not careful with your magic(kal) operation, you may pile your existing motor into a wall at 60 mph and so get a new one from the insurance ... once you get out of traction etc.
It is easy to say that neither of these events were directly caused by magic(k) ..... but that isn't how the magician thinks .... (s)he knows it works.
For obvious reasons of ethics and desire for self-preservation, not to mention the fact that you probably won't be able to create enough ooomph to get the job done, this sort of "sorcery" (as some like to call the practical side of magic(k)) is not something you just decide to knock up and have a go at .... it is something that requires a great deal of study and discipline ... so much so that once you have achieved the level of competence necessary to achieve it, often you no longer wish to expend your energies on such lowly material matters ......
My apologies for such a long post ... it is nice to see something going on in the esoterica section anyway.
 
JerryB said:
The thing is, magick is pretty much an exercise for self-enlightenment, or at least heightened self-awareness.
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly with that as most Pagans would, but the trouble is that it's not just Pagans who practice Magick, as you'll be aware and for some people the only point of Magick is to gain or get the power to gain materialistic wealth and create negativity by gaining power over someone or a situation.

That's the trouble with Carole's little spell book; it may be charming (scuse the pun) but it portrays the typical attitude that Mr Bloggs in the street has about Magick and keeps the misconceptions going - which though entertaining to the masses (?) can be a tad frustrating at times.

Lizard23 - what a fantastic post - how I wish I were as eloquent :p
 
Mythopoeika said:
How can you tell if it works, if all it can do is pretty unremarkable?
Click to expand...

Unremarkable, yes but not ineffective - as Lizard23 says so well the results can be obtained by pretty convoluted routes, some with much hilarity.

The first step essentially to be able to have an effect with Magick is to believe in it, if you don't then it's quite likely that you'll be firing blanks.

But it is a long process of study and practice, trial and error, it doesn't come easily.
 
If it's just a tool for self-development in a broad sense, is there much point? What's the advantage over zen meditation or yoga? Don't mean to come across as snide or cynical but there are an awful lot of paths to enlightenment, self-knowledge and all that that seem a great deal 'cleaner' - less ideological/metaphysical baggage, less likely to distract exponents with false dreams of finding riches and power. Perhaps some people just like the aesthetics? But really it seems like most of those into magick don't think of it only in these work-on-self terms - they do think it's effective at changing at least some things outside one's own head. I don't know. Can any magicians out there comment?
 
Crikey, i guess all of this largely depends on what your definition of Magick is.
Personally I think of Yoga and Meditation and the physiological and mental effects it has on a person as pretty Magickal - the state of mind used in these self improvent techniques are very similar to the state that the mage uses at varying levels.

What's the point? - Surely if you find feel that something helps you to attain self improvement; Yoga/Ritual/Tibetan Pulsing/Going to the Gym ;) there is a point in practising it?
 
Thank you for those kind words Quicksilver! :D

As a pagan do you do much ritual work on a regular basis?
Perhaps in the name of clearing up some of the confusion about what magic(k) is and isn't, we practicioners could give some idea of what it is we get up to ....

Tomsk ..... so much of it depends on how you look at it .... and how I look at it, for example, changes from minute to minute.

For example, every day I perform the lbrp (lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram). This is one of the simplest most fundamental rituals in a lot of magic(k)al systems. I personally do not consider myself as a follower of any one specific path (er except of course my own ;) ) nor can I really tell you if the purpose of the lbrp is to clear my headspace and my workspace of unwanted external influences - demons and spirits, or to bring upon me the favour of and instill in me the qualities of real exist-in-heaven Judo-Christian Archangels, or natural forces represented by/synchretised with them, or whether it is just a kind of positive thinking exercise or a meditation, a kind of psychology crossed with dance that helps clear my mind ..... or a combination of all the above and much more.

But I know it works.
:p
 
Personally, I think the whole process is aimed at expanding one's conciousness, or at least training it to become more expansive (what Colin Wilson calls 'Faculty X'). That is, that human beings aren't completely self-aware, and such exercises can help bring about the initial stages of this awareness. Yogic exercises WRT to Magick are really more like warm-ups, to put you in a certain calmed state of mind. The rituals and evocations are not the be all and end all of such things - they're more as stimlants for the imagination. And the stimulated imagination is key to the whole thing, because it fires off other things in the concious and unconcious mind, which in turn could spark off a heightened sense of awareness. The theory is that, once these forces are summoned up and brought out, they can be used to have effect upon the material world, but IMHO that's secondary to the whole process (i.e. it's materialism).

The whole thing about magic that is based on spells to gain things from the material world is, IMHO, the wrong end of the stick. It focuses too much on the trappings and the ritual and ignores the wider objective. And one could argue that the demons, angels, etc. side of things are merely trappings - they exist within the framework of magic as a stimulant to the imagination, but they aren't real forces in any way.
 
lizard23 said:
As a pagan do you do much ritual work on a regular basis?
Perhaps in the name of clearing up some of the confusion about what magic(k) is and isn't, we practicioners could give some idea of what it is we get up to ....
Click to expand...

Hehe - with two young kids and a non-Pagan Wife, I don't seem to have the time or private space these days, although I do tend to do a bit of outdoor work.

My local group meets on the Sabbats and Esbats to celebrate life and nature - if anyone needs to 'feel' what Magick is, the air surrounding these meets (or moots) gets pretty special.

On the whole my path is a spiritual one and the practice of Magick is not the most important part.

.....I know it works too ;)
 
Then again, it's my pet theory that ceremonial magic as we know it today is really just a big conglomeration of various confused bit and pieces of Judeo-Christian/Gnostic/etc. mysticism from the Middle Ages. I'm also sceptical of things like 'covens' or meetings of 'witches' because they stem from the minds of people tried for witchcraft in the past, (and in their turn were inspired by what was deemed 'bad' to Christinanity). There's no evidence that such things went on like that before those times. I personally don't think Margaret Murray and like-minded thinkers had their finger on the pulse.

In fact the only practical thing that could be called 'magic' is wart charming, IMHO ;) All magic may stem from the superstitions arising from what may have been simple cause and effect, chemistry, etc. used by humans waaaaaaay back. It's just that the processes weren't understood and so were deemed to be 'paranormal'.
 
Yes Quicksilver, it can be VERY hard to find the time! Especially with the pressures of work and family and other halves who don't have the same beliefs/questions. I just sneak off and do it, or tell my partner "think what you like, just don't come in the bedroom for the next hour" heh heh.
It can also be very difficult to find other people whose objectives, beliefs and/or practices are compatible with your own, which is why I do not have the benefit of any group-based activities such as you describe ...... it would be nice to get together with other people to do ritual work rather than argue about who knows most about who wrote what first and what they meant by it ....... I have considered doing a working to encourage this, but for now I am content with my solo practice.

I also agree with JerryB that it is all largely to do with states of consciousness.
This is why I perform the lbrp daily, or a version of it, it definitely changes my awareness (it took quite a few months of empty recitation of it for this to happen) and I can use that altered state in a number of ways ....
I can simply enjoy it as a part of my day in which I am aware of the raw power of the universe flowing through me ... it's quite uplifting afterall.
Or I will read tarot (or I Ching) to try to gain some insight into what is going on in my life (I read tarot extremely psychologically - none of that "you will meet a tall dark stranger" nonsense, more "hmmm the high priestess reversed in the in the realm of non-physical influence ..... perhaps issues relating to my understanding of myself as a woman are relevant here".
Or the divination will be like an election to examine the validity of and potential outcome of a magic(k)al operation I am planning ...... a good way of avoiding the car crash scenario mentioned in my previous post .....
..... then if the divination is favourable I may perform the operation, perhaps creating and/or charging a sigil or talisman, building up or directing energy to or against its target, or out into the cosmos, using visualization and appropriate symbolism (be it astrological, elemental etc etc) to achieve my goal, which may be of a "spiritual" or "material" nature ...... (this is the bit that most resembles "spells" ..... ).
I do not currently evoke (e.g. Bardon-esque elemental evocation, goetic "summoning" or chaos magic(k) style servitor/thought-form/egregor evocation) although I am currently reading up on this aspect and may well attempt to "conjure up" e.g. an entity to protect my home, or even seek to parley with some e.g. goetic spirit in the hope of gaining wisdom or favour some time in the near future .......
I am quite aware that a lot of this stuff comes from all sorts of dubious sources ... medieval grimoires claiming ridiculously to have been written by King Solomon himself, or Christ's brother or whoever , sexually predatorial 1920's "visionaries" who did a bit of yoga one time and decided to try start a religion, annoying toothy californians full of new-age self-empowerment rhetoric, cynical money-grubbing misanthropes, tree-hugging drop-outs and acid casualties and lunatics (did I forget to insult anyone's spiritual path?! ;) ) but I hear 'em out, give it a try and maybe adapt it a bit and if it works for me I keep it ...... and I cannot state it often or vehemently enough ..... it does work!

So Niles - you are quite correct - I am sure that I sound completely insane, and I have made myself this way with magic(k)al thinking! But, I feel ..... calmer ... more connected .... it's hard to describe .... it's like the feeling you get the first time the meditation you have been trying to get to grips with actually works for you ... instead of lying there feeling slightly stupid, going through the mental motions, wondering what the hell the point is ... the first time it actually WORKS and you go spinning off into space without bound and time without meaning, formless, ineffable .....
... a hallucination, a delusion, or a revelation? Does it matter, are they any different from one another etc etc .... that old business!
:D
(sorry ... guess i am in verbose mode today ...)
 
Just wanted to say that this is the most fascinating thread I have read on this board. I feel I've been educated this afternoon :)
 
The thing is, it may make you feel better and more 'connected', but is this because of forces outside of yourself or because it is in some way psychosomatic? How do you know it 'works'?
 
JerryB - we could argue this forever. :)
Your position as sceptical enquirer (ho ho) is entirely correct and I would not argue against it for a moment ...

"I feel more connected."
"I know it works."

The verb in the first statement is as wishy-washy unprovable subjective and inexact as anyone could want, and despite the apparent stern confidence of the verb in the second, there is no objective assertion there ... what I know isn't necessarily what you know - or what is "correct".

My point is exactly this I do NOT know whether any of this is to do with external realities or psychosomatic suggestion. I honestly do not know - it's not discursive rhetoric, I really have no idea.

I am open to the possibility that there are external forces at work .... afterall, surely FT and this message-board are mainly about the possibility of such possibilities ......

However it is equally Fortean (and also falls within my world view) to be prepared to accept the possibility that the human mind is capable of amazing things we do not fully understand ......

(I have always been as fascinated with what would make someone decide to perpetrate a hoax, or what shared delusional experiences say about the human species as with the possibility of the objective reality of e.g. aliens ... ghosts ......... magic(k)).

As I have said, my thinking on the subject of the outside/inside possibilities of what is occuring changes from moment to moment.

When I read the tarot do unseen discarnate forces determine what card turns up where, sending me a message across unknowable dimensions ... and if so are we talking collective unconscious, souls of the dead, demons, angels, pixies, god?
or is my souped-up monkey brain seeing the patterns that make most sense to it in a random selection of images with suitably vague meanings arbitrarily attached, like seeing a face in running water? (heh heh cold reading myself!!)

I do not know.

All I know is that it means something to me.
And the more I believe that it will mean something, the more it does.

So I choose to believe that magic(k) works.

Sometimes I believe that I am in the presence of the one all-knowing almighty god(dess) (who I have down more in a buddhist-y oneness-of-everything kind of way, rather than some bad tempered guy with the beard), and sometimes I think I am metaprogramming my mind, trying to instill new patterns of behaviour that will make me happier by a rather elabourate process of self-hypnosis ..... or even just spending some quality time with myself in a quiet room for half an hour a day, doing something no one is making me do (rare enough treat!) and everything else is coincidence and self-delusion.

I really don't know.

All I know is ...... (wait for it) .... it works!

:p
 
lizard23 said:
All I know is that it means something to me.
And the more I believe that it will mean something, the more it does.

So I choose to believe that magic(k) works.
Click to expand...

Indeed, there is a statement to encompass this: "Perception creates reality", which is a bit enigmatic, but isn't everything on this thread? ;)

I feel sometimes that if you over analyse something, you make it less potent or meaningful.
It's human nature to want and need to understand something to the full, but we all know that some things defy explanation, even for the most intelligent or enquiring minds.

Personally I think Magick is one of those things and one of the reasons is that 'it' is such a variable thing - no two people have the same definition or experience and what works for one may not work for another.

Trying to get to grips and understand/dissect Magick is like nailing jelly to a tree - can't be done (unless you freeze it first i guess, but then that only applies to the jelly :p )

How do i know it works?
Well, without wanting to sound pretentious, sometimes stuff happens in accordance with my will. That's it, really.
 
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