Dyatlov Pass Incident (1959)

[feinman]

From Wikipedia: Cattle Mutilations:

"The removal of eyes, udders and sexual organs very cleanly with surgical precision"
"The removal of the lips and/or tongue deeply cut out from the throat"
(Dubinina's tongue was gone to the floor of the mouth)
"Unexplained damage to remaining organs, but no sign of damage to the surrounding area."
"A lack of predation signs (including teethmarks, tearing of the skin or flesh, or animal footprints) on or around the carcass."
"The animal's bones found to be fractured with injuries consistent with being dropped."

"Transcript of an official interrogation of medical doctor B.A. Vozrojdenny by L.N. Ivanov about injuries of Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle.
Question: "What could have caused injuries that Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle suffered?"
Answer: "He could have been thrown down from a height of a grown man. He might have slipped and fell. However veer deep fracture of the skull base suggests that his injuries are similar to a victim that was dropped with a great speed and strength from a quickly moving car." Hmmmm....


"Eyewitness reports of aerial objects in the vicinity of cattle at the time of an animal going missing"

Suspiciously similar, to my mind.

Also:
"According to a later survey taken by the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS), mutilation of the eye occurred in 59 percent of cases, mutilation of the tongue in 42 percent of cases, the genitals in 85 percent of cases, and the rectum in 76 percent of cases.[9]"
Folks had clothing on, unlike cows. Holes found in the seat if Dubinina's pants, though.

"Yury Doroshenko is one of the two tourists that were found under a cedar at the Dyatlov Pass. He was most sturdy and tallest member of the group at a height of 180 cm. He was wearing a vest and a shirt, short sleeve shirt, knit pants and shorts over pants. His pants were badly ripped with one large hole (23 cm in length) on the right side and smaller on the left (13 cm in length). On his feet a pair of wool socks. Pants had tears inside of the thighs." Why??

 

[EnolaGaia]

can someone map it out ?

What do you mean? Plot the locations on a map? There are multiple such maps to be found online, but they vary with respect to precise locations.

 

[feinman]

You can type: Dyatlov Pass Map into google and see some simplistic ones. EnolaGaia might take issue with their slant. That reminds me that the footprints supposedly ended (went into air?) Though there is no proof of that, and might not be the case. Maybe the two in the tree were climbing towards folks held in the air? Crazy thought. But had to get as fortean as possible. :? <too crazy>..

 

[philomath]

Pants had tears inside of the thighs." Why??

because of climbing the cedar tree

 

[feinman]

Pants had tears inside of the thighs." Why??

because of climbing the cedar tree

On the outside and inside of his thighs? Maybe.

 

[henry]

can someone map it out ?

What do you mean? Plot the locations on a map? There are multiple such maps to be found online, but they vary with respect to precise locations.

any favourites, or one of your own making ?

 

[feinman]

can someone map it out ?

What do you mean? Plot the locations on a map? There are multiple such maps to be found online, but they vary with respect to precise locations.

any favourites, or one of your own making ?

Seems like they are all pretty slanted to the flying spheres hypothesis, so you could take your pick, if you can still get at them. Many of the Russian sites have had their accounts suspended, or access is now verboten. You could prabably use the Wayback Machine, though. No Russian control over that.

 

[feinman]

I've read that there was a mysterious envelope that the Russian goverment refused to let investigators look into. Wouldn't it be amazing if a few pictures were salvaged from that "water damaged" film in the mysterious camera? Would love to see those... Did Lev Ivanov get a look at them and that is why he was so certain that "glowing spheres" was the cause of the disaster?

 

[feinman]

There was also a UFO wave in 1959... Some of the objects are flying spheres, some jerk around the military. Mt. Kholat was near a military area IIRC.
Link: http://www.nicap.org/waves/1959fullrep.htm
Some if these buzzed civilian aircraft and vehicles. I've wondered in the back of my mind, if the incident wasn't some sort of retaliation for a "Shoot 'em down" approach by the militaries at this time.

 

[EnolaGaia]

... any favourites, or one of your own making ?

The majority of maps are labeled in Russian and are found on Russian sites.

So ... Unless you can read Cyrillic, there's little or nothing to recommend.

I do have a collection of images and maps, but it's fragmentary. It represents the backup files from my main workstation - lost when my apartment was destroyed in a fire last year. I have the bits and pieces, but none of the context or references (links, etc.).

If you're still game ...

Go to Google and input the following string (Dyatlov Pass map)

??????? ??????? ?????

... then switch to Images.

I recommend you download at least one of the large topological maps of the area, such as the one at:

http://www.kp.ru/f/4/image/19/67/646719.jpg

or:

http://tomovl.ru/images_topographic_map ... ic_map.jpg

A close-up featuring the pass can be accessed at:

http://elena-elk.narod.ru/Strange-stori ... agment.jpg

(In Russian 'Dyatlov Pass' looks like the first two words in the search string above.)

Maps and diagrams showing the locations of the cedar, the den, the tent, and the bodies vary quite a bit, and I can't say there's one that's clearly more accurate than any other. I've never seen one that completely correlated with other facts, records, etc.

The (English-labeled) diagram at:

http://dyatlov.looo.ch/files/library/ba ... b6map3.gif

... provides a decent (but only relativistic; not to any scale) overview of these reference points' positions.

If you avoid believing the distance markings (which are questionable), the annotated topo map at:

http://infodjatlov.narod.ru/Disp_Kedr_Sar.jpg

... gives a decent overview of the scene and the cited locations.

The 3 main labels to look for on the Russian maps are:

??????? = tent
???? = cedar
?????? ('decking') is a label often used to denote the 'den'.

Once I got oriented to the area via the topo maps (years ago) I found it more informative to rely on photos rather than the maps.

 

[EnolaGaia]

Well, crap ...

The Cyrillic text I entered was translated into question marks. Sorry ...

You can see the Cyrillic equivalents by going to Google Translate and entering:

- tent
- cedar
- decking
- Dyatlov Pass map

 

[EnolaGaia]

I've read that there was a mysterious envelope that the Russian goverment refused to let investigators look into. Wouldn't it be amazing if a few pictures were salvaged from that "water damaged" film in the mysterious camera? Would love to see those...

The envelope was examined by XXXXXX (I forget the name) some years ago. It contains nothing but administrative correspondence about the search activities and subsequent hearings.

No pictures were salvaged from the water-damaged camera because it had literally been sitting in water for 3 months. More illustration to follow ...

 

[EnolaGaia]

The photo at:

http://i073.radikal.ru/1001/96/25431fc03bd4.jpg

... shows the excavated 'den' (typically cited in Russian as 'decking').

It had been dug into a snowbank at some distance from the cedar tree site (some claim as little as 50m; the official record claims 70 - 75m). Cedar branches had been laid out to provide a place to sit / lie. Some articles of clothing, at least some of which is apparently trace-able to the dead at the cedar tree, can be seen lying on the branches.

The final four bodies were found only a few feet from this den.

 

[feinman]

Wow!! Thanks for all of your work. Too bad about the envelope! And that camera. Are you preparing to write a book about the event, EnolaGaia?

 

[EnolaGaia]

Earlier I posted a link to an overview photo of the den site.

I finally salvaged another photo (probably snagged from a Russian forum) annotated to show what's what on that overview photo. It can be seen at:

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4007/nlp ... 7d9_XL.jpg

This is 'the ravine' and den site.

The yellow arrow shows the south / north axis ('C' = 'North').

Item #1 (outlined in blue) is the excavated den (see above).

The unlabeled blue area to the right of #1 is another excavated pit into which the four retrieved bodies were placed.

The most commonly seen photos of the final four bodies show them in pairs lying in this pit. This pit is _not_ where the bodies had come to rest - it was where they were laid out after retrieval.

The reason for digging a pit for storing the bodies was ...

Item #2 (a few feet from the den and at least a couple of meters down) is the actual site where the last four bodies were found (all together). It's the stream bed.

There's a photo of the four bodies in their original location (down in the stream, at a drop-off or minor waterfall, where they all apparently fell).

Warning: Not for the squeamish ...

This photo is at:

http://s54.radikal.ru/i144/1001/00/a769d18b2f4d.jpg

It's an annotated composite created from 3 photos.

The photo in the upper left is the original search team photo of the bodies in the stream. You can't tell much about them; they're in shadow.

The two photos on the right are close-ups showing the bodies of 3 men (upper) and Dubinina (lower) where they fell and were found - face-down in a rocky creek. These close-ups were taken at different points during excavation.

The photo in the lower left is a mash-up in which the close-up body images have been scaled and pasted into their relative positions on the dark overview photo.

The circles and arrows illustrate the reference points used to correlate the close-up shots with the overview photo.

This photo:

http://s56.radikal.ru/i152/1001/77/04ad3f074889.jpg

... was posted on a Russian forum in early 2010 and supposedly shows the stream bed location without the snow.

 

[feinman]

That den looks much larger and well conceived than I would have thought!! I can't imagine that Zolotarev helped build that after he was injured. Something must have happened to he and Dubinina perhaps at nearly the same time?

 

[EnolaGaia]

That den looks much larger and well conceived than I would have thought!! I can't imagine that Zolotarev helped build that after he was injured. Something must have happened to he and Dubinina perhaps at nearly the same time?

Basically, yes ... I think all four people at the den / ravine site probably died at or near the same time. They all tumbled into the stream bed ('ravine') in the same place, as the photos indicate.

The fact that cedar site deceased's clothing was found in the den means the clothing was put there _after_ the ill-dressed contingent had spent time at the cedar tree. I don't think Zolotarev and Thibeaux-Brignolle (no matter how well-clothed) would have been able to get Dubinina and Kolevatov to another location 70 - 75m from the cedar tree and then construct the den.

As I've mentioned, there's no evidence Z and T-B were at the cedar tree with the others. I've come to think Z and T-B were operating separately from the ill-dressed group - quite possibly to the extent of having descended into the valley at a different time.

Another factoid supporting a separate descent for Z and T-B ... The search party reported they had located footprints (the path from the tent into the valley), but they only claimed the number of people represented was 6 to 8 (not the full 9). They noted that all the footprints indicated the people represented were not wearing boots. They specifically opined that all the footprints had been made by stocking feet. There was one exception (which I'd forgotten until I ran across it tonight during my rummaging). At the inquest / hearing they claimed the set of footprints that seemed to have been in the lead position (i.e., the set most over-trodden by others) was wearing _one boot_. Slobodin was the one found wearing a single valenki.

In other words - no footprints were identified in the 'main path' that correlate with Z and T-B (who each wore a pair of boots).

Z and T-B therefore weren't coordinated with the others in terms of the path taken down-slope. There's therefore no reason to presume they were coordinated with the others in terms of timeframe (for their descent) either.

I've come to think (for the time being, at least ...) that Z and T-B were already in the valley. Maybe they went to look for firewood (which could have been a desperate need). Maybe Z (a WWII army veteran, and much older than the others) argued that Dyatlov's leadership should be questioned for having stuck them in such a vulnerable position, and he and T-B stormed out in a huff. In any case, they left reasonably well-dressed (if not well-equipped).

They ended up constructing a den farther away from the tent than the cedar tree to which all the others came. I think the others came off the mountain later and failed to sustain a fire at the cedar tree. Dyatlov and two others set out for the tent (which they never reached). Two were dead at the cedar tree, and their clothing was re-distributed. Dubinina and Kolevatov didn't head back up-slope. Maybe they couldn't, and were deliberately left behind.

I think Z and T-B either:

(a) came on the cedar tree scene after the deaths and departures to find Dubinina and Kolevatov alone and in dire need, or ...

(b) were tucked away in their separate den, oblivious to the cedar tree happenings until Dubinina and Kolevatov blundered by ...

I think the re-distributed clothing found in the den was brought by D and K, or brought along when Z and T-B moved D and K to their den site. At some point (perhaps even before getting everyone into the den at all) they all tumbled into the stream bed ('ravine') a few feet away and died there.

If Z and T-B had been present at the cedar tree along with the others:

(a) They were the ones best equipped to hike back up to the tent, and should have been the ones to try;

(b) One must wonder why none of their clothing was shared; and

(c) It makes no sense they'd have stayed behind to tend the dying and then set up a shelter from scratch some 70 - 75m farther away from the tent.

 

[feinman]

Thanks! Weird. Strange that they were all injured like that at the same time, with similar injuries to their chests.

 

[philomath]

makes sense but how to explain the 2 most peculiar 'facts'
1) the cut of the tent from the inside
2) the trip down to the valley not properly dressed and especially without boots....paradoxical undressing? but then why later down in the valley they started putting their acts together tryng to get warmer either by starting a fire or by taking pieces of clothes from the 2 Yuris dead by the cedar tree?

One reason to cut the tent might be to force reluctant people to leave...like sinking a boat and leaving no other option to people than to jump into the sea....could have been that Igor took the lead in this way to push the remaining 7 to walk down?

 

[philomath]

May be there was a 'mutiny': Zolotarev and Thibeaux-Brignolle left the campsite with the dark and with one of teh flaslights (and therefore sometime between sunset and dawn) not in order to get fuel and bring back to the tent but because they judged making a den in the valley would have been a more comfortable/safe/sensible way to spend the night...Zolotarev took his 2nd 'secret' camera to take pictures at dawn.....

The 2 objects Zolotarev took with him are useful at different times: a torch when it's dark, a camera when ther eis some light....

But they both left most of their belongings in the tent which means the plan was however to get back there sooner or later....not to split from the other party...

 

[philomath]

why not with the skies?

would have been wiser for Zolotarev and Thibeaux-Brignolle to take the skies with them - maybe dangerous to sky down the hill at night but definitely easier then to climb up on the way back again...

8 of the 9 skies were placed under the tent floor and maybe would have been difficult to slide them out...

 

[philomath]

why didn't take the saw?

the saw would have been useful to cut some wood maybe but even this item was left in the tent....

 

[EnolaGaia]

May be there was a 'mutiny': Zolotarev and Thibeaux-Brignolle left the campsite with the dark and with one of teh flaslights (and therefore sometime between sunset and dawn) not in order to get fuel and bring back to the tent but because they judged making a den in the valley would have been a more comfortable/safe/sensible way to spend the night...Zolotarev took his 2nd 'secret' camera to take pictures at dawn.....

The 2 objects Zolotarev took with him are useful at different times: a torch when it's dark, a camera when ther eis some light....

But they both left most of their belongings in the tent which means the plan was however to get back there sooner or later....not to split from the other party...

Yes - that's one of the possible motivations for Z and T-B descending separately from the others.

As I've mentioned before, I keep coming back to the fact they'd had a disappointing day and the supposition nerves could have been fraying.

IMHO it was Z (clearly the 'outsider' among the group) who was most likely to criticize the situation they'd found themselves in. As a war veteran and experienced backcountry traveler, he might have considered things to be worthy of concern.

By all accounts T-B (though something of an 'outsider' himself) was outgoing, friendly, and helpful. However, it was he who was designated to create one of the group's daily entries for the journal (days earlier), and he didn't do it. His entry basically said he'd tried, but had nothing. This is one of the very few clues that anyone wasn't wholeheartedly 'with the program'.

I agree about Z and T-B being equipped for an extended foray away from the tent, yet not fully equipped to leave the party entirely. A stay overnight to cool off from an argument, or a firewood gathering side-trip, would be consistent with their attire.

 

[EnolaGaia]

Re: why didn't take the saw?

the saw would have been useful to cut some wood maybe but even this item was left in the tent....

True ... The same goes for the ax or axes the group carried (and which were found at the tent) The big problem is that there's no claim the tools found at the tent represented the entire set of tools any of the party's members were carrying.

 

[philomath]

possible sequence of deaths

radioactive sweater and pants belonging to Krivonischenko (one of the two found beneath the cedar tree) were taken by/given to Dubinina.

Zolotariov, although 'well' dressed was found wearing Dubinina's faux fur coat and hat
(although he already had a hat)...
So in sequence Krivonischenko died first, then Dubinina, then Zolotariov.

Doroshenko (the other Yuri found dead under the cedar tree) might have died before Igor Dyatlov: the long sleeved shirt found on the body of Igor Dyatlov was Doroshenko's as Yudin (the 10th survivor) testified he gave it to Doroshenko when he was departing.

If so the members of the '3 parties' met wheether dead or alive.

 

[feinman]

May be there was a 'mutiny': Zolotarev and Thibeaux-Brignolle left the campsite with the dark and with one of teh flaslights (and therefore sometime between sunset and dawn) not in order to get fuel and bring back to the tent but because they judged making a den in the valley would have been a more comfortable/safe/sensible way to spend the night...Zolotarev took his 2nd 'secret' camera to take pictures at dawn.....

The 2 objects Zolotarev took with him are useful at different times: a torch when it's dark, a camera when ther eis some light....

But they both left most of their belongings in the tent which means the plan was however to get back there sooner or later....not to split from the other party...

Yes - that's one of the possible motivations for Z and T-B descending separately from the others.

As I've mentioned before, I keep coming back to the fact they'd had a disappointing day and the supposition nerves could have been fraying.

IMHO it was Z (clearly the 'outsider' among the group) who was most likely to criticize the situation they'd found themselves in. As a war veteran and experienced backcountry traveler, he might have considered things to be worthy of concern.

By all accounts T-B (though something of an 'outsider' himself) was outgoing, friendly, and helpful. However, it was he who was designated to create one of the group's daily entries for the journal (days earlier), and he didn't do it. His entry basically said he'd tried, but had nothing. This is one of the very few clues that anyone wasn't wholeheartedly 'with the program'.

I agree about Z and T-B being equipped for an extended foray away from the tent, yet not fully equipped to leave the party entirely. A stay overnight to cool off from an argument, or a firewood gathering side-trip, would be consistent with their attire.

Yeah, a curious foray with that camera, and then had to build a den... Weird.

 

[philomath]

[A stay overnight to cool off from an argument]
the ideal weather to 'cool off' any argument...! [/quote]

 

[EnolaGaia]

makes sense but how to explain the 2 most peculiar 'facts'
1) the cut of the tent from the inside
2) the trip down to the valley not properly dressed and especially without boots....paradoxical undressing? but then why later down in the valley they started putting their acts together tryng to get warmer either by starting a fire or by taking pieces of clothes from the 2 Yuris dead by the cedar tree? ...

As time goes on, I get increasing skeptical about the 'cutting from inside' bit. There were multiple tears or cuts in the tent fabric of different types. The opinion that a cut was made from inside started with outsiders - a tailor and a laundress - who happened to see the tent after it was recovered.

The alleged evidence for cuts having been made from inside consists solely of observations that the frayed fabric around the holes primarily extended outward.

Subsequent examination resulted in diagrams illustrating the difference between fabric around a tear and fabric around a cut. The most formal statements on the holes refer to the distinction between cuts and tears - not which direction the cuts had been made from.

Somewhere along the line these facts blurred into a single claim that _all_ the holes were the result of cutting, and all had been cut from the inside. I've never been able to identify anywhere in the investigators' reports where this global conclusion was claimed.

Multiple persons (most recently and most particularly Eichar) have claimed the first searchers on the scene tore into the collapsed tent. I don't think any of them crawled into the collapsed tent and then cut the tent wall from the inside. It seems to me this means there were at least some holes that weren't made from inside.

I'm not saying nobody cut the tent from the inside. All I'm saying is that I increasingly suspect the 'all cuts made from inside' claim is bogus.

 

[feinman]

EnolaGaia, I am curious, was the door to the tent still zipped or shut? Or did the wrecking crew investigators louse that up too?

 

[philomath]

burns

people with burns:
- Yuri Krivonischenko (one of the 2 under the cedar tree): burn on the left leg
- Yuri Nikolaievich Doroshenko (yhe other under the cedar tree): left foot had burnt socks
- Dubinina (in the 'ravine') pants was badly damaged by fire and subsequently ripped.
- Alexander Kolevatov (in the 'ravine'): left sleeve had burnt edges
His feet protected by home knitted woolen socks have signs of fire damage