Engineered Shortages

[Mythopoeika]

Well, no but I'm guessing that the gist of the article was about moving away from farming animals to vegetables with a greater yield per acre, but it was badly written and perhaps deliberately sensationalist hence my comment about being dubious about the source.

The Dutch government is trying to restrict the use of nitrogen-based fertilisers, so I would say they are also trying to stop fruit and veg being farmed as well. Not just meat.

 

[Ascalon]

The Dutch government is trying to restrict the use of nitrogen-based fertilisers, so I would say they are also trying to stop fruit and veg being farmed as well. Not just meat.

I think it is due to a wider issue than that.
According to the Soil Association:
"Nitrogen pollution causes nitrogen-tolerant species to thrive and outcompete more sensitive wild plants and fungi. This reduces wildlife diversity and damages plant health. Excessive application of synthetic fertilisers has been shown to acidify soils too, damaging soil health and reducing the productivity of soils."

 

[Frideswide]

The Dutch government is trying to restrict the use of nitrogen-based fertilisers, so I would say they are also trying to stop fruit and veg being farmed as well. Not just meat.

woah! that's a huge jump there @Mythopoeika !

restricting one form of artificial fertiliser equals a complete ban on fruit and vegetable farming? You could as well say that they are acting to secure the future of fruit and vegetable farming because they know that

Excessive application of synthetic fertilisers has been shown to acidify soils too, damaging soil health and reducing the productivity of soils."

as @Ascalon says above.

 

[Mythopoeika]

woah! that's a huge jump there @Mythopoeika !

restricting one form of artificial fertiliser equals a complete ban on fruit and vegetable farming? You could as well say that they are acting to secure the future of fruit and vegetable farming because they know that...

Well, OK - they could ban fertilisers and go over to organic farming.
But without any form of fertiliser (i.e. no animal poop to be available), this will be unsustainable. Also, Holland would slip from being the world's number 2 exporter of food, leading to an economic crash. Their usual customers would experience food shortages and the cost of organic food would force prices up.

 

[Mythopoeika]

I think it is due to a wider issue than that.
According to the Soil Association:
"Nitrogen pollution causes nitrogen-tolerant species to thrive and outcompete more sensitive wild plants and fungi. This reduces wildlife diversity and damages plant health. Excessive application of synthetic fertilisers has been shown to acidify soils too, damaging soil health and reducing the productivity of soils."

Yes, I know. Farmers and the government should work together to find a technological solution to that.

 

[Tunn11]

Well if they kept farting next to the volcanic activity it may have caused the wildfires.

 

[ramonmercado]

Well if they kept farting next to the volcanic activity it may have caused the wildfires.

That's the reason why I call for a cull of farting farmers. To ass to it, farmers burning gorse etc cause a lot of wildfires. Something has to be done about these crazed pyromaniacs.

 

[Tunn11]

Yes, I know. Farmers and the government should work together to find a technological solution to that.

Certain crops will fix nitrogen IIRC my O level biology. Legumes -peas, beans, peanuts, etc. fix nitrogen using symbiotic bacteria. If they are ploughed into the soil after cropping they increase the nitrogen content. That will also help soil structure. Organic farming needn't only use animal products.

I doubt the plants care where the nitrogen comes from, the main benefit of organic gardening (if not farming) is the improvement of soil structure.

The old system of leaving fields fallow will help and that needn't mean no income from them, free range chickens etc. will also nourish the soil. It's about crop rotation and allowing the soil a chance to rest every few years but I guess that eats into profits if someone is growing thousands of acres of wheat every year? It's easier just to spray a chemical on the lot.

 

[RaM]

When I see something like this, it's live air traffic Europe is somewhere under this lot,
I will take my chance with a load of cows with windy poos, or is it the farmers with
windy poos? any way I will take my chance with them.

 

[Mythopoeika]

The old system of leaving fields fallow will help and that needn't mean no income from them, free range chickens etc. will also nourish the soil.

Will even that be allowed?

 

[RaM]

Now I am not 100% on this by any means.
A few years ago the EU had a scheme to reduce things like food mountains, remember them?
and so on, farmers could take fields out of production and would be paid for it, but the plot
thickens, nothing is ever straight up n down with the EU, you could still grow crops on these
fields but only certain ones, known as set aside crops, and sill be paid for set aside and the crop
you have grown, this is likely why we have fields of oil seed rape and more hay fever.

 

[maximus otter]

I think it is due to a wider issue than that.
According to the Soil Association:
"Nitrogen pollution causes nitrogen-tolerant species to thrive and outcompete more sensitive wild plants and fungi. This reduces wildlife diversity and damages plant health. Excessive application of synthetic fertilisers has been shown to acidify soils too, damaging soil health and reducing the productivity of soils."

maximus otter

 

[Ascalon]

maximus otter

But at what cost?
If the soil is breaking down and the risk to the wider environment is so great, what then?
I'm not saying don't do it, what I'm saying is there are ways beyond pure nitrogen-based fertilisers that do not acidify the soil, kill microbes, poison rivers and lead to costal dead zones. See Gulf of Mexico.

 

[PeteS]

Now I am not 100% on this by any means.
A few years ago the EU had a scheme to reduce things like food mountains, remember them?
and so on, farmers could take fields out of production and would be paid for it, but the plot
thickens, nothing is ever straight up n down with the EU, you could still grow crops on these
fields but only certain ones, known as set aside crops, and sill be paid for set aside and the crop
you have grown, this is likely why we have fields of oil seed rape and more hay fever.

Interestingly though RaM, I've noticed in my neck of the woods(very close to you) there has been a massive reduction in the growing of oil seed rape. Perhaps just as well since very late in life I've become a victim of hay fever.

 

[brownmane]

This article gets a 'WTF' reaction from me:

https://www.eutimes.net/2023/06/13-nations-agree-to-abolish-farming-in-order-to-save-the-planet/

13 nations have agreed to abolish farming!
What effect will that have? Oh yes, mass starvation.

Let's not actually report what these groups are really doing (not you, myth, but the questionable source of unreliable information). I looked up only one of the agencies because sources like this like to make up committees and agencies to prop up their claims.


The Food and Agriculture Organization of United Nations does exist and here is its Key Facts and Findings on the topic:

https://www.fao.org/news/story/en/item/197623/icode/

And here is part of the information regarding how methane gas from ruminants can be decreased (nothing to do with abolishing farming):

Efficient practices key to reducing emissions

There is a direct link between GHG emission intensities and the efficiency with which producers use natural resources, i.e. the amount of natural resources engaged in animal production, per unit of edible or non-edible output. For livestock production systems, nitrous oxide, methane and carbon dioxide emissions are losses of nitrogen, energy and organic matter that undermine efficiency and productivity. Possible interventions to reduce emissions are therefore to a large extent based on technologies and practices that improve production efficiency at animal and herd levels.

While mitigation interventions will need to be tailored to local objectives and conditions, currently available mitigation options discussed in FAO’s assessment include:

For ruminants – cows, mainly -- the greatest promise involves improving animal and herd efficiency. This includes using better feeds and feeding techniques, which can reduce methane (CH4) generated during digestion as well as the amount of CH4 and nitrous oxide (N2O) released by decomposing manure.

Improved breeding and animal health interventions to allow herd sizes to shrink (meaning fewer, more productive animals) will also help. And manure management that ensures recovery and recycling of nutrients and energy, plus the use of energy saving devices, also have a role to play.

Additionally, better management of grazing lands could improve productivity and create carbon sinks with the potential to help offset livestock sector emissions.

In monogastric production – primarily poultry and pig farming –“precision feeding,” breeding, and better animal health care offer ways to reduce emissions due to feed production and manure management. Switching to feed sources whose production is less energy-intensive, and to more sustainable sources of power would allow additional cuts.

 

[brownmane]

Interestingly though RaM, I've noticed in my neck of the woods(very close to you) there has been a massive reduction in the growing of oil seed rape. Perhaps just as well since very late in life I've become a victim of hay fever.

Sorry if it seems like I'm doubting some of people's comments here, but I grew up in an agricultural community and do like people to know some of the facts that get slightly twisted.

Canola/rapeseed that is used in commercial agriculture cannot, in general, cause hay fever because the pollen is too large though "close contact can cause asthma and other symptoms". This usually means if you are working directly with it.

People can have a food allergy to it.

Please see attached link:
https://www.allergyresources.co.uk/Rapeseed-Pollen.php


It reminds me of people who say they are allergic to goldenrod, but it is really ragweed they are allergic to. Both plants flower at the same time, but goldenrod pollen is too large. It is the ragweed pollen that causes the problem.

 

[hunck]

Let's not actually report what these groups are really doing (not you, myth, but the questionable source of unreliable information). I looked up only one of the agencies because sources like this like to make up committees and agencies to prop up their claims.


The Food and Agriculture Organization of United Nations does exist and here is its Key Facts and Findings on the topic:

https://www.fao.org/news/story/en/item/197623/icode/

And here is part of the information regarding how methane gas from ruminants can be decreased (nothing to do with abolishing farming):

Efficient practices key to reducing emissions

There is a direct link between GHG emission intensities and the efficiency with which producers use natural resources, i.e. the amount of natural resources engaged in animal production, per unit of edible or non-edible output. For livestock production systems, nitrous oxide, methane and carbon dioxide emissions are losses of nitrogen, energy and organic matter that undermine efficiency and productivity. Possible interventions to reduce emissions are therefore to a large extent based on technologies and practices that improve production efficiency at animal and herd levels.

While mitigation interventions will need to be tailored to local objectives and conditions, currently available mitigation options discussed in FAO’s assessment include:

For ruminants – cows, mainly -- the greatest promise involves improving animal and herd efficiency. This includes using better feeds and feeding techniques, which can reduce methane (CH4) generated during digestion as well as the amount of CH4 and nitrous oxide (N2O) released by decomposing manure.

Improved breeding and animal health interventions to allow herd sizes to shrink (meaning fewer, more productive animals) will also help. And manure management that ensures recovery and recycling of nutrients and energy, plus the use of energy saving devices, also have a role to play.

Additionally, better management of grazing lands could improve productivity and create carbon sinks with the potential to help offset livestock sector emissions.

In monogastric production – primarily poultry and pig farming –“precision feeding,” breeding, and better animal health care offer ways to reduce emissions due to feed production and manure management. Switching to feed sources whose production is less energy-intensive, and to more sustainable sources of power would allow additional cuts.

I’m adding eutimes to the list. It’s growing.

Katie Hopkins
Wattsupwiththat
Daily sceptic
Orderorder/guidofawkes
Notalotofpeopleknowthat
Hotair
Eutimes

 

[brownmane]

Now I am not 100% on this by any means.
A few years ago the EU had a scheme to reduce things like food mountains, remember them?
and so on, farmers could take fields out of production and would be paid for it, but the plot
thickens, nothing is ever straight up n down with the EU, you could still grow crops on these
fields but only certain ones, known as set aside crops, and sill be paid for set aside and the crop
you have grown, this is likely why we have fields of oil seed rape and more hay fever.

I would think that the crops that they were referring to were plantings that farmers plant to leave a field fallow eg rye grass. If you are a crop farmer, it is good practice to rotate crops yearly and leave one fallow every 7 years (I think it is 7). But it is difficult to have a field fallow and not make any income from it.

It is like gardeners who rotate their crops annually to keep their soil fertile and relatively pest free.

 

[PeteS]

Sorry if it seems like I'm doubting some of people's comments here, but I grew up in an agricultural community and do like people to know some of the facts that get slightly twisted.

Canola/rapeseed that is used in commercial agriculture cannot, in general, cause hay fever because the pollen is too large though "close contact can cause asthma and other symptoms". This usually means if you are working directly with it.

People can have a food allergy to it.

Please see attached link:
https://www.allergyresources.co.uk/Rapeseed-Pollen.php


It reminds me of people who say they are allergic to goldenrod, but it is really ragweed they are allergic to. Both plants flower at the same time, but goldenrod pollen is too large. It is the ragweed pollen that causes the problem.

Interesting that. People living in very close proximity to what were huge fields of rapeseed always complained that that was the cause of their hay fever. Are there different types of rape seed?

 

[RaM]

You can certainly smell it when you pass oilseed rape, a lot now seem to have gone over
to the very tall corn on the cob that doesn't seem to ripen in the uk but like driving down
a green canyon when between fields interesting how things are changing.
One thing I have noticed if you pass a lavender field how it has a blue haze above it.

 

[brownmane]

Interesting that. People living in very close proximity to what were huge fields of rapeseed always complained that that was the cause of their hay fever. Are there different types of rape seed?

According to our friend wiki, there are two kinds cultivated - spring rapeseed and winter rapeseed. It appears, according to this source that Canada and the UK do not use the same one. And interesting that the site states that people are looking for an alternative crop because of decreasing range of cultivation and quality due to climate change.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapeseed

 

[catseye]

You can certainly smell it when you pass oilseed rape, a lot now seem to have gone over
to the very tall corn on the cob that doesn't seem to ripen in the uk but like driving down
a green canyon when between fields interesting how things are changing.
One thing I have noticed if you pass a lavender field how it has a blue haze above it.

Lavender or linseed? Lots of linseed grown in the UK for oil etc, not much lavender...

And I wish they'd hurry up and ban plastic grass and fake lawns in general. I KNOW they mean less maintenance (but do they? Really?) but they are ugly, and barren of any wildlife. Plus, lumps of dog poo dotted around on top just look hideous.

Even gravel gardens or paved spaces with pots dotted around have to be better than that.

 

[RaM]

I used to pass 2 lavender fields in Yorkshire a year or two back did look strange at times.