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Fahrenheit 9/11

I agree with jima that the scene of the kids flying kites, folk getting married, et al, was a bit on the precious side. I'll just counter that for many Americans "Iraqis" remained an abstraction, rather than actual living, breathing human beings. It was a cheap heartstrings-manipulating part of the movie, but it took up all of what, one minute. Removing it (or showing how awful Saddam was, since that was only a post-facto reason given for the war) wouldn't especially alter the basic arc or narrative impact of the film.

I do find it puzzling when MM is attatcked for being a publicity hound or somesuch. Getting as many people as possible to see his film(s) is his, y'know, job. He makes his living by creating movies and convincing people to plunk down $6-7 of their hard earned cash to see it. What would Mark Kermode and others think MM should do to promote his film? Not tell anyone about F 9/11 and screen it in his own living room?

:confused:
 
McAvennie said:
Again a diatribe that doesn't actually answer any of the points raised in the film, rather deflects the debate onto whether Moore is a money-grabbing egotistical twat.
So what if he is - like everyone else in Hollywood isn't as well. The whole article barely mentions the actual content of the film.

Mark Kermode was reviewing the film, not it's content (he is no lover of Bush or supporter of the invasion of Iraq). He is however, particularly incensed by the way that Moore played the censorship card in order to pre-publicise his movie (as if Disney are the only distrubuter out there) while other film makers from various South American and far eastern countries who really do suffer under the gag of censorship are ignored.
I value his opinion more than that of Tarantino (who recently pronounced the U.K. film industry "dead") and his cronies.
I'll see if I can dig up a more complete review.
 
All Blunderbuss and Bile

All blunderbuss and bile

In seeking to damn George W Bush, Michael Moore succeeds mostly in damning himself

Mark Kermode
Sunday July 11, 2004
The Observer

Fahrenheit 9/11
(112 mins, 15)
Directed by Michael Moore
Two elements must be considered in relation to Michael Moore's controversial documentary, Fahrenheit 9/11: the merits of the film itself, and the manner in which it has been sold to the public. While we'd all like to pretend that the former is more important, Moore has made so much of the alleged attempted suppression of his movie, now being marketed as 'The Film They Didn't Want You To See', that it is necessary to address this first.

For the record, there was never any doubt that Fahrenheit 9/11 would receive uncensored distribution, even when Disney decided to wash its hands of it. In fact, Moore's protestations at the time of the Cannes Film Festival were a cynical ploy to increase the profile of his movie. That Fahrenheit 9/11 would never have been a contender for the coveted Palme d'Or had the Cannes jury not believed that it was somehow standing up for freedom of speech by handing Moore the prize seems obvious.

Politically, playing the censorship card was a masterstroke, proving that whatever else he may be, Moore is an accomplished spin doctor. Yet such flagrant chicanery also raises serious questions about his integrity as a documentary maker, even for those like myself who are predisposed to embrace anything which savages the repulsive Bush and his dreadful adventures in Iraq.

To the movie, then. The first stanza of Fahrenheit 9/11 is vintage Moore, with George W Bush's hijacking of the 2000 election being evoked in a fashion which provokes heartbreaking laughter. 'Was it all a dream?' drawls Moore in his driest tones, as the media first hail Al Gore triumphant, then change their minds when 'something called Fox News' hands Florida to Bush.

A parade of righteous indignation follows as representatives of the disenfranchised black community are thwarted in their attempts to contest the results, and the new President's limousine is pelted with eggs. With his eye for the tragicomic news clip and ear for the quotable soundbite, Moore evokes a genuine air of catastrophe as Al Gore concedes defeat, something of a miracle considering what a useless lunk Al always was.

He also invests shots of Bush and his cohorts preparing themselves for a TV broadcast (brushing hair, straightening ties) with an almost demoniacal air of manipulation. The fact that the real manipulator here is Moore, filching footage which would make anyone look shifty, seems somehow irrelevant. From a dramatic point of view, it's a tremendous opening: grim, comic, ominous and heavy with the promise of dark revelations to come.

Sadly, the film doesn't deliver. Yes, there is biting humour in the montage of Dubya playing golf while America stumbles toward disaster, driving home the legitimate suggestion that Bush failed to respond to information indicating that al-Qaeda was planning to attack. Equally intriguing for budding conspiracy theorists is the unravelling of Saudi oil interests in various Bush family businesses, although the revelations of their ties to the extended bin Laden family will be old news to anyone who's read Moore's book Dude, Where's My Country?.

Loud warning bells should begin to ring, however, when Bush is shown apparently stupefied as he first learns of the attacks on the World Trade Centre, continuing to read My Pet Goat with a classroom of schoolchildren even as the Twin Towers burn. 'What on earth was he thinking?' asks Moore in voiceover, going on to suggest a mixture of panic, guilt and conniving deception as the minutes tick by.

While my political prejudices inclined me to agree, sober reflection demands that one consider the possibility that Bush was demonstrating an air of calm to rival Francis Drake, finishing his game of bowls before addressing himself to the Armada. We cannot know what went on in the President's head, but we can recognise the manner in which Moore manipulates an ambiguous image for his own ends.

From here, things go badly wrong, with the invasion of Iraq signalling a change of tone from dry, biting satire to woolly, emotional blackmail. Gradually, Moore's persona as a wry satirist gives way to his irritating alter-ego as a hectoring, self-righteous blunderbuss.

This is nothing new. In the final act of the otherwise excellent Bowling for Columbine, Moore shot himself in the foot by first ambushing a doddering Charlton Heston with demands for an apology for the high-school massacre, and then sanctimoniously laying a photograph of a deceased child outside Heston's house with all the pantomime panache of a shameless carnival huckster.

In Fahrenheit 9/11, he not only repeats but aggravates this error. Having first established Saddam's Iraq as a placid country in whose streets children gaily played (an image which even those who opposed the invasion would find hard to swallow), Moore batters us with a series of near pornographic shots of the carnage of war, images which are always awful, regardless of the justification (or otherwise) of military action.

Back in Flint, Michigan, Moore descends upon Lila Lipscomb, mother of a US soldier killed in Iraq, whose grief the film-maker milks without mercy. It's hard not to cringe at the spectacle of Moore, who elsewhere depicted the US troops as murderous heavy-metal fans, heartlessly recording Lipscomb's anguish as she weeps in front of the White House. It's not the honesty of her tears that is in question, it's Moore's editorial judgment. As I watched, my contempt for Bush was rivalled only by my growing revulsion for a film-maker who would resort to such tactics.

And, of course, there are the obligatory grandstanding stunts, such as Moore attempting to get Congressmen to enlist their kids for military service. Again, the problem lies not in the revealing fact that only one of them has a child serving in Iraq, but that Moore feels the need to upstage this bold statistic with the spectacle of his own campaigning presence.

Elsewhere, even the 'facts' seem shaky. Much is made of the Bush Administration allowing a number of Saudis to fly out of the country in the wake of the twin towers attacks, even though all air traffic had been grounded. 'No one could fly,' says Moore, 'not even Ricky Martin', getting a hearty laugh out of the plight of the stranded Latino popstar.

Yet the independent 11 September commission reported that there was no credible evidence that any Saudis had flown out of the United States while national air space was closed. I don't know which version is true, but in light of Moore's willingness to elaborate tales of his battles against the forces of censorship, I'm disinclined to take his word for it.

In the end and, perhaps most damningly, all the emotive huffing and puffing tends toward tedium, an absolute disaster for a film which relies on its crowd-pleasing potential to popularise a political message. As someone who was utterly opposed to the Iraq war and who believes wholeheartedly that Bush should not just be toppled but tried, I was surprised at how little empathy I felt for the polemical rhetoric of Fahrenheit 9/11.

Clearly, it wasn't designed to win my support, as the absence of all but one reference to Tony Blair's role in this debacle proves (Moore here seems even less interested in world politics than Bush). But on the level of satirical documentary film-making, Fahrenheit 9/11 frequently falls so far short of journalistic adequacy as to become risible.

If you want truly entertaining insights into the realities of American imperialism, check out Errol Morris's superb documentary, The Fog of War. As for Michael Moore, ask yourself this question: would you buy a used car from this man?
Exactly.
 
Mark Kermode never begins to amaze me.

Anyone know what Tom Paulin had to say about it? I remember when they reviewed Amelie on the late review he started grumbling about it in true Tom Paulin style that it was an anti-afghanistan film or words to that effect. Cheerful fella.
 
Is it just me or does Mr Kermode's sympathy for the devil really ring quite hollow and more than a little cynical itself... the vague undertone of 'of course, that sort of manipulation could NEVER happen here...' Excrement! Moore is a journalist, so is Kermode. For one to imply the other would sell his mother for glue if it was a good story is rather like the pot calling over to the kettle with the observation,, 'My! But you're a dusky fellow...'
 
Mark Kermode ... I value his opinion more than that of Tarantino ... and his cronies.
What?

Quentin Tarantino has made some fantastic movies.

I don't particularly "value" Mark Kermode's opinions. And I think he writes very poorly. Reminds me of a student pub bore.

Of course Michael Moore is going to say things like " the film they tried to ban " .... he's promoting a movie, for goodness sakes. He wants maximum publicity. And he wants us to watch it. Films are always promoted with extravagant claims. Mark Kermode is an idiot if he doesn't recognise that.

Nothing inherently pejorative about propaganda. We're subjected to propaganda every day of the week.

Anyhow - I see that a proper telecine version of Fahrenheit 9/11 has finally arrived online. And apparently Michael Moore is encouraging piracy of the movie. I look forward to being able to watch it roughly 41 hours from now. No chance of it being screened in this town.
 
alb said:
What?

Quentin Tarantino has made some fantastic movies.

Kill Bill :confused:

alb said:
Of course Michael Moore is going to say things like " the film they tried to ban " .... he's promoting a movie, for goodness sakes. He wants maximum publicity. And he wants us to watch it. Films are always promoted with extravagant claims. Mark Kermode is an idiot if he doesn't recognise that.

Nothing inherently pejorative about propaganda. We're subjected to propaganda every day of the week.

Michael Moore is a propagandist masquerading as a documentary maker, and that's dishonest.

Most dictionaries define the word "documentary" as:
Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.
Where's the objectivity in his latest offering?

IMHO he's a leech who senses a popular groundswell of public opinion and milks it for both profit and self aggrandisement.

I'd rather have a beer with Mark Kermode than the loathsome Moore any day.
 
At the risk of being pejorative, I would sooner plunge red hot needles into my eyes than seek the society of either... however, having done my own research, I would suggest the MM is slightly less hypocritical than Kermode, since if it suited him Kemode would use the same tactics that he castigates Moore for. Reality ended in 1998 with 'Contact'... to assume that any Journo is doing anything except selling by the word is to assume a morality that the breed is wholly incapable of, despite their best efforts to persuade one otherwise. It is a job, albeit trading in misery and corruption, like any other. They pick it up at the start of the day and put it down at the end. Morally, they are little better than intestinal parasites. To say one is 'better' than the other is to make the judgement that its better to be shot in the left foot rather than the right.
 
I agree Hugo. Much better to stay in a state of total ignorance about what might be happening in the world than think that some writers might be trying to awaken the masses to what is going on. Its well known that as soon as they put pen paper all writers become twisted, immoral self-seeking liars. After all, the truth is usually stranger than fiction.
 
Hugo Cornwall said:
Is it just me or does Mr Kermode's sympathy for the devil really ring quite hollow and more than a little cynical itself... the vague undertone of 'of course, that sort of manipulation could NEVER happen here...' Excrement! Moore is a journalist, so is Kermode. For one to imply the other would sell his mother for glue if it was a good story is rather like the pot calling over to the kettle with the observation,, 'My! But you're a dusky fellow...'

I've never valued his opinion on anything much from this film to Lord of the Rings for example, because when something's popular or has the majority of public approval, Kermode has a tendency with his reviews to be contrary...a perfect example is given when he expresses his own political views and how he may well be betraying them (that's quite a popular motif in Kermodes reviews and it's also symptomatic of this need to have a contrary view. I'm sure he only does it to films he knows are going to do well at the box office regardless of what he says).

Bad reviews are the best reviews in my mind but this one really isn't great. What other ones have their been?
 
"The Film They Didn't Want You To See"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/3817993.stm

18th June 2004

US groups want Moore film banned

US conservative groups have launched a campaign to have Michael Moore's "misleading and grotesque" film Fahrenheit 9/11 banned from cinemas.

The film alleges connections between President George Bush and top Saudi families, including the Bin Ladens.

Move America Forward has begun a letter-writing campaign, while Citizens United is making TV and internet adverts which criticise Moore.

The documentary film will be shown around the US from 25 June.

'Support'

Move America Forward members were behind a letter-writing campaign that led US channel CBS to drop TV movie The Reagans last November, claiming the film distorted history.

The group has received several thousand e-mails of support for its Fahrenheit 9/11 campaign, said executive director Siobhan Guiney, a former Republican Party lobbyist.

"Since we are the customers of the American movie theatres it is important for us to speak up loudly and tell the industry executives that we don't want this misleading and grotesque movie being shown at our local cinema," the group said on its website, listing contact details for various US cinemas.

It seems to be left to us to make sure that the media is educated, as well as the American people are educated, as to just what they're up to
David Bossie, Citizens United
Ms Guiney said: "(Moore) is critical of what's happening right now, and there's no problem with being critical - but his movie is not a documentary, it's a piece of propaganda."

Citizens United is headed by former Republican congressional aide David Bossie, who is also targeting George Soros, a billionaire who donated nearly m (£7m) to groups seeking to defeat President Bush.

Mr Bossie said: "Look, this guy (Moore) is simply producing and advertising this movie at this time to try to affect the election."

Despite the campaign by the two independent groups, US cinema chain Regal Entertainment Group said it intended to go ahead and screen the film as planned.

And US liberal advocacy group MoveOn.org has asked its supporters to write to cinemas on Move America Forward's list, urging them not to give in to pressure to block the film.

Fahrenheit 9/11's US distributor Lions Gate Films believes the plan to have the film banned will fail.

"My guess is that their efforts will backfire and only rally support for the film, which will be terrific as far as I'm concerned," said president Tom Ortenberg.

"We need less censorship in this country, not more."

Fahrenheit 9/11 won the Palme d'Or at this year's Cannes Film Festival, and will be released in the UK on 9 July.
 
Meanderer said:
I agree Hugo. Much better to stay in a state of total ignorance about what might be happening in the world than think that some writers might be trying to awaken the masses to what is going on. Its well known that as soon as they put pen paper all writers become twisted, immoral self-seeking liars. After all, the truth is usually stranger than fiction.

Intruding on an individual's grief is morally reprehensible, but it makes good copy, and I don't see that slowing up many news media types. If it does, they usually leave the game altogether. Developing some form of conscience when it comes to the general public is bad news for the career journalist.Taking a pop at corrupt politicians, representatives of lobby bodies etc. is fine, since they chose to be public figures and claim some form of moral high ground.
 
The recognition that Michael Moores "documentary" is subjective is healthy, it makes people consider its content. People tend to swallow the political content of fictional films of historical events much less critically (think of anything with Mel Gibson).

To paraphrase something someone emailed me:

M.M. - Michael Moore or Marylin Monroe, Democrat Presidents aren't advised to get into bed with either of them.
 
Fahrenheit 9/11 breaks UK record

Charlotte Higgins, arts correspondent
Tuesday July 13, 2004
The Guardian

Fahrenheit 9/11, director Michael Moore's unflinching satire on George Bush's administration and the American right, has broken box office records in the UK.

It had the best ever opening weekend for a documentary, grossing more than £1.3m. Its nearest rival is Moore's earlier documentary, Bowling for Columbine, which took £157,898 in the equivalent period.

In the US Fahrenheit 9/11 has become the first documentary to reach the number one box office spot. Moore said after its first week in cinemas that he was "knocked for a loop". Whether the film fulfils his ambition of toppling the Bush administration is another question.

The film traces alleged business links between the Bin Laden and Bush families and contains some particularly biting and witty material on Mr Bush's apparently casual attitude to his presidential responsibilities before September 11 2001.

At its emotional heart lies the bleak notion that the Iraq war saw the ruthless exploitation of the American working class, particularly its ethnic-minority working class, as cannon fodder.

The film was the surprise winner of the Palme D'Or at the Cannes film festival in May, but even before then had been controversial, with Disney - parent company of Miramax, which made the film - saying it was too political for it to distribute in the US.

Harvey and Bob Weinstein, the brothers behind Miramax, bought back the rights and a distributor was found at the 11th hour.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1259784,00.html
 
Aparently the 'heart and soul' film was released on the 2nd of july. funny I didn't see it breaking any records at the box office, I supose a blind bloke that climbs mountains, although being a good accomplishment, pales into insignificance compared to a country being lied to in order for a madman with a blood lust to settal his score with another madman with a blood lust.

I saw f 9/11 today and it was funny, moveing, frightening and interesting in different parts while managing to fit together very well. Moore certinly has done his research he shows closeups of source documents and interveiws so either Mark Kermode did not see the film and made his reveiw up or he was watching an entirely different film to me.

I would recomend that people see this film even if they like George W. Bush as it is not all about Bush and will tell you some interesting things about Army recrutement techneques and comunitys where unemployment is around 50%

I would recomend that Authur watch it too, it dose not critisise Tony Blair and barely even mentions him so even the most ardent fan of Teflon Tony could see the film with a clear conciance or without the fear of David Blunket hitting them with a thunderbolt.
 
Lord_Flashheart said:
I would recomend that Authur watch it too, it dose not critisise Tony Blair and barely even mentions him so even the most ardent fan of Teflon Tony could see the film with a clear conciance or without the fear of David Blunket hitting them with a thunderbolt.

Seen it.

And my opinion of Mark Kermode's review is unchanged. It's typically self-indulgent and shamelessly biased. Not a documentary, but a product, aimed squarely at an audience cleverly targetted by Moore.

To re-state my original point, it's NOT a documentary, it's propaganda.

For goodness sake, try and seperate the content from the presentation, and show me some evidence of the objectivity of a true documentary maker.
 
Whatever good or bad aspects the film may have, it's not having much of an impact overall. It's preaching to the choir, for the most part.

We're not seeing any major jumps or slumps in the polls. And some of the polls are pretty confusing. In a recent Washington Post poll, a slim majority was unhappy with things in Iraq. But a 10% majority thought Bush was the man to push the war on terrorism.

Of course, polls are usually of such small samples (a large sample is something less than 1000 people) as to be statiscally uselss. And then there are the polls that are selective about whom they poll. Bill Clinton taught us that polls are not to be trusted too much.

Point is, the movies is making a splash mostly amongst those who already believe in it's message. Ebert, whatever his credentials as a movie reviewer, is responding from his politics as well as his tastes. I suspect in a short time, like after November, it will be pretty much forgotten.
 
hedgewizard said:
Bill Clinton taught us that polls are not to be trusted too much.

I never did like General Jaruzelski.

;)

I suppose Michael Moores work might be regarded as polemic rather than documentary. I think the designation "documentary" is really being used as the equivalent of "non-fiction" because there isn't another category currently available in the cinema. Film categories aren't as well defined as those for literature.
 
I'd tend to agree with you hegdewizard, but with two caveats: a) To the degree it motivates people who were ready to vote Bush out of office, but not say, give their time or money to do so and now are, it might have an impact. And b) which somewhat relates to a, as we saw in 2000, in an extremely close election, which '04 seems likely to be, swaying millions of people to change their mind isn't necessary to effect the outcome. A few thousand (or even hundreds) in key states can suffice.

To go back to Arthur ASCII's point, could you give me some examples of the "objectivity of a true documentary filmmaker"? You cited Errol Morris, though Fog of War seems problematic to me, to the degree that that designation applies. Even made 35, 40 years on, it still seems obvious that while he wasn't out to "get" McNamara the way MM goes after Bush, he clearly views the Vietnam war to have been a disaster and a quagmire. Did you see Morris' movie Dr. Death ? I suppose it's more *objective* than a number of films that deal with the extermination Jews during WWII in that a guy who was willingly used as a tool of professional holocaust deniers comes across as merely someone's slightly kooky uncle, but to what end?

Every choice a director makes, from the lighting to the soundtrack to what camera angle to use to what and how to edit reveals a point of view. MM is very upfront about revealing his biases, yes. And....????
 
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

59 Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11

2000 Election Night

Deceits 1-2

Fahrenheit 9/11 begins on election night 2000. We are first shown the Al Gore rocking on stage with famous musicians and a high-spirited crowd. The conspicuous sign on stage reads “Florida Victory.” Moore creates the impression that Gore was celebrating his victory in Florida.


(edit: etc... the original post was too long and almost broke the board. See the referenced website for the full text)
 
Current events are raining on Moore's little parade. The Senate Intelligence Oversight Committee's report and Britain's Butler report negate any claims that the intelligence agencies of either country massaged their data for their leaders. Events are also revealing that Joe Wilson's claims that Saddam never tried to get yellowcake uranium (the stuff for nuclear weapons) are lies. We know that Saddam's people had made at least two attempts to obtain yellowcake uranium from Niger. And there's the silly claim that we haven't found any WMDs. In addition to a dozen or so gas shells (mustard and sarin), we've also retrieved botulin (the precursor to botulism toxin) from a microbiologist's home and something like 1.8 tons of low-enriched uranium. Nope, no stockpiles (those are probbaly in Syria). But WMDs and the tools to make them, oh my yes. I've heard unsubstantiated rumors that some WMDs have turned up in Syria and German, in the hands of people who would use them against the West, but I'm not making those claims here and now. Still have to dig up those reports.
 
It's all getting a little out of hand now.

Singer Linda Ronstadt not only got booed, she got the boot after praising filmmaker Michael Moore and his new movie "Fahrenheit 9/11" during a Las Vegas performance.

Before singing "Desperado" for an encore on Saturday night, Ronstadt called Moore a "great American patriot" and "someone who is spreading the truth." She also encouraged the audience at the Aladdin hotel-casino to see the documentary about President George Bush.

Ronstadt's comments drew loud boos, and some of the 4,500 people in attendance stormed out of the theatre. People also tore down concert posters and tossed cocktails into the air.

"It was a very ugly scene," Aladdin President Bill Timmins said. "She praised him and all of a sudden all bedlam broke loose."

Timmins, who is British and was watching the show, said he didn't allow Ronstadt back in her luxury suite afterward and she was escorted off the property.

Ronstadt's antics "spoiled a wonderful evening for our guests and we had to do something about it," Timmins said.

Ronstadt, 58, had been booked to play the Aladdin for only one show.

On Monday, Moore released a letter that he intends to send to Timmins.

"For you to throw Linda Ronstadt off the premises because she dared to say a few words in support of me and my film, is simply stupid and un-American," Moore wrote.

Timmins said Ronstadt would not sing at the Aladdin again: "As long as I'm here, she's not going to play."
 
Sure is. Linda Ronstadt was being paid to sing, not express her political views.
 
I was planning a 3 week trip to the States next year but having read the above and watched a programme last night about the nasty (feet in shackles and denial of food and water for 24 hours) that can happen to you if you even look at an immigration guard the wrong way I've changed my mind. And I don't think I'll be the only one.
 
Meanderer said:
I was planning a 3 week trip to the States next year but having read the above and watched a programme last night about the nasty (feet in shackles and denial of food and water for 24 hours) that can happen to you if you even look at an immigration guard the wrong way I've changed my mind. And I don't think I'll be the only one.

I watched the program (Tonight with Trevor McDonald) too, and while I found myself angered by the stories presented, I told myself to think it through before making rash or sweeping judgements about the demerits of visiting the States in future.

At the end of day, Dunwoody was spot on when she commented that the US Immigration dept, stung by the fact the 19 Saudi hijackers were allowed to carry out their awful plot in 2001, has simply swung too far the other way and started to restrict the personal freedoms of legitimate travellers because it's so scared of something similar happening again. You can kind of understand it. They are now making efforts to reign things in and we should be pleased to hear this.

It seems to me that the blame may well lie with over-zealous individuals rather than policies.

Don't forget that these examples are the worst individual cases. What do you think examples of the worst behaviour by the worst immigration staff in many if not most other countries would be like? Quite possibly a lot worse.

As for the Ronstadt thing, it's worth remembering that even some people opposed to the war object to Michael Moore's new film because of the tactics he employs and his evident lack of professional integrity.
 
Conners said:
As for the Ronstadt thing, it's worth remembering that even some people opposed to the war object to Michael Moore's new film because of the tactics he employs and his evident lack of professional integrity.

Possibly the biggest problem with it...because now, in any discussion with someone pro-war (of the pro-Bush and everything he does and says variety), an anti-war opinion gets associated with Michael Moore's views, providing the pro-war argument with the means to rather messily sidestep any issues they don't feel they would wish to burst their bubble with.

It also means that some rather serious issues brought up in the film get tarred with one giant brush again...something pro-war opinion tends to favour in place of logic and reason.

Which is a tremendous pitty.

The pro-war argument has suddenly become "Yeah well Zoos are stoopid because they've got monkeys in them and monkey's...they look stupid."

Oh and before any pro-war types (of the pro-Bush and everything he does and says variety) leap on me for saying "stupid monkey"...NO, I'm not Anti-Monkey.

:rolleyes:
 
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