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Fluoride & Fluoridation In Our Water Supplies



I say this with all the earnestness and sincerity of a scientist who has spent nearly 20 years` research into the chemistry, biochemistry, physiology and pathology of fluorine--any person who drinks artificially fluorinated water for a period of one year or more will never again be the same person mentally or physically." Charles Perkins

What a terrifically scientific statement.
1) Is "artificially fluorinated " the same as " artificially fluoridated "? How different are either from water that is naturally fluorinated/fluoridated?
2) How much fluorinated/fluoridated water would a person have to consume over a one-year period to "never again be the same person mentally or physically."? And how much fluorine/fluoride would that water have to contain?
3) What exactly does this chap mean by that phrase "never again be the same person mentally or physically."?
4) "Doing research" can consist of merely going to the local public library and reading odd copies of Nature and New Scientist. What are Mr Perkins' scientific qualifications?
This debate has being going on for ages so it's a pity to pitch it
at the level of hysterics.

Flouride in water certainly benefits teeth.

But, once the notion of compulsory medication via water is granted,
where do we stop?

If it's gin, I'll say when. :rolleyes:
James Whitehead said:
This debate has being going on for ages so it's a pity to pitch it
at the level of hysterics.
Flouride in water certainly benefits teeth.
But, once the notion of compulsory medication via water is granted, where do we stop?
My sentiments exactly - this sort of stupid OTT scare-mongering is just helping the "it's for your own good, honest!" brigade.
Eek! I don't believe I wrote "Flouride".

But I'm far too honest to quietly correct it.

Fluoride, Fluoride, Fluoride x 100. :)
...any person who drinks artificially fluorinated water for a period of one year or more will never again be the same person mentally or physically.
Apparently, a great smile can change your life. Count me in for fluoride!

What bothers me is how it feels like one can never get the soap off while using "softened" water. Now that's a mystery!

Sterling Hayden, as General Jack D. Ripper, in `Dr Strangelove. When Captain Lionel Mandrake (Peter Sellers), finally gets the reason out of him, for launching a nuclear attack on Russia. Fluoridation. Oh, and sexual impotence.

Then we finally knew the General had fully flipped his beany. Not just partially, but the full pretzel.

Of course Stanley Kubrick, may just have been a particularily smart lizard, putting us off the track.
IIRC, when the introduction of flouridation of drinking water was on the cards in post-war USA, there were voices on the right-wing who opposed it. I think one of their concerns was the effect it had on the brain, fearing that it might make the population more coercive and thus open to Communist psychological warfare...
I think one of their concerns was the effect it had on the brain, fearing that it might make the population more coercive and thus open to Communist psychological warfare...
So, does it only work for communists?
Dunno - the only Communists I've met seemed just as credulous as everyone else ;)
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So, there I am, on the train, off to start my holiday. I pick up a paper and read this:
België verbiedt tabletten en druppels met fluor
BRUSSEL - De Belgische minister Aelvoet van Volksgezondheid gaat de verkoop van fluortabletten en druppels verbieden, meldde de Vlaamse radio. Volgens de minister zeggen wetenschappers dat een teveel aan fluor het zenuwstelsel van de mens kan aantasten. België is het eerste land ter wereld dat voedingssupplementen met fluor verbiedt. Vlaamse tandartsen verbazen zich over het verbod, omdat fluor goed is voor de tanden. (ANP)
Volkskrant 30/July/2002
Well, that certainly took the edge off the day, I can tell you.

Belgium Bans Fluoride Tablets and Drops
The Belgian Minister for Public Health, Aelvoet, intends to ban the sale of fluoride tablets and drops, according to Vlaamse (Flemish) radio. According to the Minister, scientists say that too much fluoride can damage human, nervous systems. Belgium is the first land in the World that is to ban food supplements with fluoride. Flemish dentists are astonished at the ban, because fluoride is good for the teeth.

Considering how often I've knocked the whole `Fluoride Conspiracy' thing, I thought I'd better post this. It is well known that too much fluoride has bad side effects, though.

Still, everybody knows the Belgians are bonkers, anyway.
aha but how much fluoride is too much, perhaps the high amounts found in fluoride found in the pills is high enouth in a single dose to potentialy cause harm, but the fluoride in the water is in a very low concentration so unless you decide to drink 100 or so pints of water a day (quite a hard thing to do) you will probably not suffer any ill efects.
I'm surprised the anglesea test hasen't been mentioned on this thread yet: for 5 years the government stoped (or rather scientists working under the direction of the government {it was under thatcher if I remember corectly}) fluoridated water from going to the Welsh island of Anglesea this led to realy scabby teath among the local children, so it appears that we've become ever so slightly dependant on fluoride in the water.
Here's something that will scare you more than fluoride... Chlorine is artificialy added to our tap water and that's a more potent poisen than flouride! (all right I know its in too low a concentration to cause damage to humans, but it's funny that people get so het up about floride but not clorine)
Oll_Lewis said:
but it's funny that people get so het up about floride but not clorine)
They would if they lived in Croydon during the 1990s. It was like drinking swimming pool water. I think they had the wrong recipe book.
Provocative new book

The 'Prozac in drinking water' thread jogged my memory that there was a very interesting-sounding title published earlier this year, The Fluoride Deception by highly respected investigative reporter Chrisotpher Bryson. Its afterward is written by Dr. Arvid Carlsson, awarded the Nobel Prize for Medicine in 2000, and just this month got a fairly postive write-up from the decidedly establishment/orthodox Chemical & Engineering News. Here's the review from Publisher's Weekly:

Concerns over fluoridated drinking water have long been derided as the obsession of McCarthyite cranks. But this muckraking j’accuse asserts that fluoride is indeed a dire threat to public health, one foisted upon the nation by a vast conspiracy—not of Communist agents, but of our very own military-industrial complex. Investigative reporter Bryson revisits the decades-long controversy, drawing on mountains of scientific studies, some unearthed from secret archives of government and corporate laboratories, to question the effects of fluoride and the motives of its leading advocates. The efficacy of fluoridated drinking water in preventing tooth decay, he contends, is dubious. Fluoride in its many forms may be one of the most toxic of industrial pollutants, and Bryson cites scientific analyses linking fluoridated drinking water to bone deformities, hyperactivity and a host of other complaints. The post-war campaign to fluoridate drinking water, he claims, was less a public health innovation than a public relations ploy sponsored by industrial users of fluoride—including the government’s nuclear weapons program. Legendary spin doctors like Edward Bernays exploited the tenuous link between dental hygiene and fluoridation to create markets to stimulate fluoride production and to prove the innocuousness of fluoride compounds, thereby heading off lawsuits by factory workers and others poisoned by industrial fluoride pollution. Bryson marshals an impressive amount of research to demonstrate fluoride’s harmfulness, the ties between leading fluoride researchers and the corporations who funded and benefited from their research, and what he says is the duplicity with which fluoridation was sold to the people. The result is a compelling challenge to the reigning dental orthodoxy, which should provoke renewed scientific scrutiny and public debate.
Nice one. This was mentioned in this months Konspiracy Korner (FT188) Very interesting...
ditto. Have heard it all before.

Still confused at the end as to whether fluoride is good or bad?

This htread has made me more confused than ever

Even so, the idea of putting something in water is kinda weird. The fact that we all have to drink this water...
A day or two after I joined the RAF (1976 RAF Swinderby basic training camp), after a dental examination, all recruits were given a "flouridation" treatment. This required us to clench our teeth on a plastic mould full of a vile-tasting green goo for thirty minutes.

It was explained that this intensive flouridation would prevent inconvenient toothaches later in our careers.

It cost the RAF a fair bit of cash to provide me with extensive root canal work some years later, but I've still got all my own teeth, and I don't glow in the dark ;)
How about freedom of choice?

The biggest problem I have with fluoride in my water is having no choice in it. I get a little upset when I pay for the privilege of drinking a poison, and it is a poison, I’m not sure if you can still get it but you used to be able to buy fluoride rat poison from the hardware store. My local council is currently arguing over whether or not to put fluoride in our water supply but the public is getting minimal input and is mostly ignorant to what it is. It is listed as a contaminant by the US Environment Protection Agency and can actually have a detrimental effect on the teeth of older people. If people want to stick it in their children’s food and their own it should be offered as pills. I’ve got a book somewhere explaining exactly what it is and where it comes from; it lists the safe dosage (so many parts per million) and what can happen at different rates. It claims it’s a waste product from the aluminum making process and is very hard to clean, unless you filter it through a human! It mentions the Nazi’s using it in the POW camps to try and subdue the inmates but only briefly so as to illustrate its potential for use in mass control of the population. I'll have a dig around and tell you who its by and what its called. I don’t know if I can trust the same governments who encouraged cigarette companies to make their smokes more deadly, experiment on their own troops, or drop nuclear waste with a half-life of 3 billion years on a country to really have my health as its concern for sticking this in me.
.I worked for 26 years in the water industry in the UK,as far as I know, no UK water has artificial fluoridation. Its very nasty stuff on a large scale, so water companies are not keen to store/use it, for the same reason they are moving away from bulk storage of chlorine,(very nasty, believe me !).In the wrong dose it can cause "Blue Baby "syndrome, it does improve resistance to tooth decay but brushing your teeth once a day with toothpaste that contains fluoride (most do) will give you all the protection you need (for teeth that is !).Its a by-product of some chemical manufactuers and its difficult to get rid of it !. I'll let you draw your own conclusions:rolleyes:
'No safe level of fluoride' in water

'No safe level of fluoride' in water, Liberal Democrat Conference, UK
21 Sep 2004


The Liberal Democrat conference has heard that any plans by health authorities to allow water companies to add fluoride to drinking water could lead to "mass poisoning".

Delegates attending a fringe meeting at the Bournemouth conference were told by Doug Cross, an independent environmental consultant and forensic ecologist, that fluoride was a "very dangerous substance... the most reactive element" and it could have potentially lethal effects on the human body.

Mr Cross also argued that any attempts by the government to introduce fluoride into the water system based on health benefits were severely flawed and that there was little scientific evidence to back-up any claims.

However, critics of the debate, including a dentist, argued that the introduction of fluoride would be one way of improving children's dental health and could help save the NHS thousands.

A number of delegates also believed that the matter of fluoridation should be debated in the main conference so that the Liberal Democrats can present a clear policy on the subject.

Health Development Agency, UK

Effect of fluoridation of water on teeth, study
15 Mar 2005

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medical ... wsid=21263

Tooth decay declined substantially in prevalence and severity when Hong Kong children consumed less fluoride, indicative of a world-wide scientific trend revealing, with fluoride, less is best; none is better.

In 1988, Hong Kong reduced water fluoride levels from 0.7 parts per million (ppm) to 0.5 ppm. By 1995, 31% fewer 11-year-olds had cavities with a 42% reduction in average cavity rates, according to the Hong Kong Public Health Bulletin (1). Similar reductions occurred in 1978 when Hong Kong's fluoridation rates were first cut from 1 ppm to 0.7 ppm (2).

Hong Kong's dental health is superior to the United States' (3), even though U.S. children consume 1 ppm fluoridated water and brush with 1,000 ppm fluoridated toothpaste. And Hong Kong children use lower concentrated (500 ppm) fluoridated toothpaste (4).

Evidence that eliminating fluoridation lessens decay:

* Seven years after fluoridation ended in LaSalud, Cuba, cavities remained low in 6- to 9-year-olds, decreased in 10- to 11-year-olds, and significantly decreased in 12- to 13-year-olds, while caries-free children increased dramatically, according to Caries Research (5).

* East German scientists report, "following the cessation of water fluoridation in the cities Chemnitz . . . and Plauen, a significant fall in caries prevalence was observed," according to Community Dentistry and Oral Epidemiology (6) . . . Surveys in the formerly-fluoridated towns of Spremberg and Zittau found "caries levels for the 12-year-olds of both towns significantly decreased... following the cessation of water fluoridation."

* In British Columbia, Canada, "the prevalence of caries decreased over time in the fluoridation-ended community while remaining unchanged in the fluoridated community," reported in Community Dentistry and Oral Epidemiology (7).

* In 1973, the Dutch town of Tiel stopped fluoridation. Researchers counted decayed, missing, and filled permanent tooth surfaces (DMFS) of Tiel's 15-year olds, then collected identical data from never-fluoridated Culemborg. DMFS rates initially increased in Tiel then dipped to 11% of baseline from 1968/69 to 1987/88 while never-fluoridated Culemborg's 15-year-olds had 72% less cavities over the same period, reports Caries Research (8).

In New York State, cavities and tooth loss are greater in fluoridated rather than in non-fluoridated counties (9). In fact, tooth decay crises exist in most, if not all, large fluoridated U.S. cities (10).

Sometimes stopping fluoridation has no effect as in Kuopio, Finland (11), and Durham, North Carolina (12).

Some countries show lower decay rates in less fluoridated villages when compared to higher fluoridated villages such as in Uganda (13, 14), the Sudan (15) and Ethiopia (15a).

In South Australia, dental examinations of 4800 ten- to fifteen-year-olds' permanent teeth reveal unexpected results - similar cavity rates whether they drink fluoridated water or not (16).

In the United States, despite living without fluoridated water, rural children's cavity rates equal those of urban children, who are more likely to drink fluoridated water, according to a large national government study of over 24,000 U.S. children (17).

And, to add insult to injury, cavity rates doubled (18) after water fluoridation began in Kentucky (19).



SOURCE: New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation, Inc.
PO Box 263
Old Bethpage, New York 11804
Paul S. Beeber, President and General Counsel [email protected]

Fluoride NewsTracker Blog

Fluoride Action Network
So we are all to play safe and drink naturally mineralised water that is sold in the health food stores??
well i use a water filter jug,that fits into my fridge door.
this reduces fluride,pesticides,lead etc
in addition i use non flouride toothpaste
as for all the rubbish about it helping teeth could i just add
if a child ingests too much flouride his/her adult teeth have white spots(bad for you as it iirc reflects the state of your skeleton not to mention the positive effects lead/mecury fillings are bound to have not withstanding them being possibly the two most insidious poisions i can think of)
if the said child avoids flouride alltogether it has a benificial effect(i myself have no fillings bad teeth etc and have not avoided sugar or ever used flouride at all my whole life,im 35)
my philosophy is always asume that everything the government/science/religion says is rubbish or at least dubious and find out for myself
just how has mankind evolved,without all this rubbish,and why all of a sudden is it so important.
Tin Finger said:
if the said child avoids flouride alltogether it has a benificial effect(i myself have no fillings bad teeth etc and have not avoided sugar or ever used flouride at all my whole life,im 35)
my philosophy is always asume that everything the government/science/religion says is rubbish or at least dubious and find out for myself
just how has mankind evolved,without all this rubbish,and why all of a sudden is it so important.

Fluoride supplements are important because our diets have far more sugar now and fluorine is one of the best ways to prevent cavities (other than brushing). The government thinks adding it to water is a good idea because it's easier than persuading children to brush their teeth. It's a stupid idea really and while it might help those children it puts others at danger of having too much fluorine in their diet and ruining their teeth. Furthermore, children that don't brush their teeth probably also go for pepsi over tap water. I vote for keeping it in toothpaste and pills.
Tin Finger - i imagine you brush your teeth, which is why they're so healthy, go without and you'll see why George Washington had wooden teeth. Humans didn't evolve for sugary diets.
iirc fluride is a byproduct of smeltering aluminium.its supposed to attack those things that dammage teeth but im unsure just how it knows just what teeth are...as our skeletons are almost the same material but contain our marrow which obviously is pritty important.
also if your going to start adding stuff to our water why not just add every supplement known,why not?,hows about vitamin c iron etc..
why not?
personally id rather they just stopped the chlorine/fluride/pecticides/lead etc
leaving me to decide whats good for me thaks very much.
Fluorine affects enamel, therefore it wouldn't have any effect on bones or marrow. And the government does add other things to food - most bread has added folic acid to prevent birth defects. It's not needed by half the population, but it doesn't cause any harm. The reason I disagree with fluorine addition is that it is both unnecessary and harmful.
Homo Aves said:
So we are all to play safe and drink naturally mineralised water that is sold in the health food stores??

Ummm,if a water company produced water like a lot of the bottled mineral waters,they would get prosecuted as many of them contain "over the limit" minerals for tapwater !.Bizzare but true.
There IS fluoride in the drinking water here. I was actually just reading the other day in one of my textbooks about how they put fluoride in the drinking water because it's good for your teeth and how if you drink bottled water instead of tap you should talk to your dentist about how to get enough fluoride.
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Return of a perennial 70s favourite. I have to admit I am very uncomfortable with forced medication of this nature, although I appreciate its benefits WRT to kids' teeth.

Annoying typo in the headline and throughout

Go-ahead for flouride in tap waterHigh court rejects complaint by Southampton resident and rules flouride can be added to water there

Renewed efforts to add flouride to tap water across the UK are likely after the high court gave the go-ahead for the NHS in Southampton to do so.

The court rejected a complaint by Southampton resident Geraldine Milner that the South Central Strategic Health Authority's (SHA) plans to flouridate the city's water supply broke the law.

Mr Justice Holman, sitting in London, denied Miller's claim that the decision-making process was "defective". He ruled there was no substance in any of the grounds of complaint and that her legal challenge must be dismissed.

Milner had sought a judicial review of the SHA's plans and been backed by local anti-fluoride campaign groups. She opposed the SHA's use of statutory powers in February 2009 to instruct Southern Water, the local water provider, to go ahead with fluoridation.

Many doctors, dentists and public health specialists support flouridation as a way of reducing dental decay. It was proposed for Southampton and some of south-west Hampshire because the city has more than twice the national average for children with serious tooth decay. But opponents criticise it as "enforced medicine" and claim that it can lead to problems such as bone cancer and thyroid problems.

Other local authorities who had put fluoridation schemes on hold pending the outcome of the case are likely to be encouraged by the ruling and revive their plans.

Refusing the claim for judicial review, the judge expressed sympathy for people like Milner who disagreed with fluoridation but said he had not been able to conclude that there had been any illegality in the decision-making process. Parliament has decided that water can be flouridated in certain circumstances and the approval of a majority of the local population was not needed for that, he said. "This SHA have not acted unlawfully and no court can interfere with their decision."

The British Dental Association, which represents 23,000 of the UK's 36,000 dentists, welcomed the ruling. "Fluoridation will play an important role in reducing the worryingly high levels of dental decay in Southampton where as many as 42% of five-year olds have experienced tooth decay. Despite a range of oral health measures used by Southampton City PCT to reduce these high levels of tooth decay and to address health inequalities, "more than 520 children in Southampton still required general anaesthetic to have a total of 2,900 teeth extracted in 2007," said a spokeswoman.

Professor Damien Walmsley, the BDA's scientific adviser, added: "The BDA is pleased with the result because it is likely to encourage consultation on similar schemes in other parts of the country where fluoride could help address the poor dental health of the population. A recent European summary of the latest scientific evidence reiterated the view that water fluoridation is a safe and effective method of reducing oral health inequalities."

A Department of Health spokeswoman said: "The outcome of the judicial review shows that the SHA followed the correct legislative process when carrying out their consultation and making their decision. The SHA must now decide how they take things forward."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/ ... outhampton