Forgotten History

[Roland Deschain]

Some interesting medals go to auction.

1916 medal of ‘doctor and belligerent’ Kathleen Lynn for sale​

Dr Lynn’s 1916 Rising Service Medal for sale with €20k-€30k estimate​

“Madame Markievicz was overhead in the condemned cell and we used hear reports that she was to be executed ... We could hear the shootings in the mornings, and we would be told afterwards who it was. It was a very harrowing experience.”

These are the words of Dr Kathleen Lynn, who was imprisoned alongside Helena Maloney and Madeline Ffrench-Mullen after the Easter Rising. Her 1916 Rising Service Medal will be offered in Mullen’s Collector’s Cabinet, a live and online sale on Saturday, January 29th with an estimate of €20,000-€30,000.

The daughter of a Church of Ireland clergyman from Co Mayo, Lynn was educated in Alexandra College in Dublin, which she left at the age of 16 to train as a doctor, to become the first female resident doctor at the Royal Victoria Eye and Ear Hospital in London.

A revolutionary in every aspect of her life, she was a suffragette and heavily influenced by the writings of James Connolly. She joined the Irish Citizen Army as chief medical officer. Not only did she act in a medical capacity, she also stored guns and ammunition at her surgery, while making pioneering contributions to healthcare with the establishment of St Ultan’s Hospital for infants at Charlemont Street in Dublin, with her confidante and long-term partner Madeline Ffrench-Mullen. St Ultan’s, which closed in 1983, was the only hospital in Ireland managed entirely by women.

Lynn, who described herself as a “Red Cross doctor and belligerent” was released from prison on the condition that she work with flu victims during the Spanish flu epidemic a century ago, and immediately established a vaccination centre at Charlemont Street.

Set of six Victoria Cross medals awarded to Irishman Private Patrick Donohue will be auctioned by Dix, Noonan Webb, £140,000-£180,000.

Indian Mutiny​

Further honours for sale this month are “the outstanding Indian Mutiny Victoria Cross group of six, awarded to Private Patrick Donohoe of the 9th Lancers”. This will be offered by UK auctioneers Dix Noonan Webb in its Orders, Decorations, Medals and Militaria sale on Wednesday, January 26th.

Estimated to fetch an eyewatering £140,000-£180,000 (€170,000-€216,000), the set has not been on the market in over a century. “Donohoe joined the 9th Lancers from Ireland and was unique in being awarded the grand slam of medals won by his regiment for its 17 years of continuous service in India.

“His Victoria Cross action was earned in the thick of a battle of spears and swords that saw him rescue his commanding officer from certain death having being cut off from the rest of his party after being severely wounded in the action,” according to Christopher Mellor-Hill of Dix Noonan Webb.

Born in Nenagh in 1820, Donohoe married Mary Ann Glascott in India and became the stepfather to Anna Leonowens, who went on to teach at the palace of Mongkut, King of Siam, who wished to educate his 39 wives and concubines in addition to his 82 children. Leonowens served the court for six years as a teacher and later as language secretary, and though mentioned in Mongkut’s will, never received a legacy. She is immortalised in Margaret Landon’s novel Anna and the King of Siam, which was adapted as the Rodgers and Hammerstein musical, The King and I.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and...-belligerent-kathleen-lynn-for-sale-1.4774659

I’m not sure if you meant to illustrate the juxtaposition but I was struck by the doctor (sworn to do no no harm) aiding in waging war VS the soldier saving lives.

 

[Kondoru]

Certainly some interesting stories with them.

 

[ramonmercado]

I’m not sure if you meant to illustrate the juxtaposition but I was struck by the doctor (sworn to do no no harm) aiding in waging war VS the soldier saving lives.

Even Doctors have to fight for the freedom of their countries whereas Donoghue may have saved his CO's life he undoubtedly took many Indian lives.

 

[Roland Deschain]

Even Doctors have to fight for the freedom of their countries whereas Donoghue may have saved his CO's life he undoubtedly took many Indian lives.

I know it’s just the hippocrathic oath and all that stuff, seems a tad awkward. There were similar conflicts of interest (or rather oaths) during the Vietnam war.
Let’s be fair “do no harm” VS shooting someone in the face requires a fuck ton of cognitive dissonance to pull off. But then of course where do we get word hypocrisy from?

 

[ramonmercado]

I know it’s just the hippocrathic oath and all that stuff, seems a tad awkward. There were similar conflicts of interest (or rather oaths) during the Vietnam war.
Let’s be fair “do no harm” VS shooting someone in the face requires a fuck ton of cognitive dissonance to pull off. But then of course where do we get word hypocrisy from?

But the do no harm refers to medicine. Taking up arms to throw out out Imperialist occupiers has got nothing to do with hypocrisy.

Donoghue was certainly brave and likely an economic conscript but he was in a foreign country oppressing the native people of that land, Lynn was in her own country fighting those who were oppressing her native people. If there is any dichotomy or dissonance then it is between those who struggle for liberty and those who subjugate others.

I posted the piece to illustrate how different people from Ireland won medals, both of whom deserve to be remembered for their personal courage.

I don't wish to denigrate the memory of Donoghue, Lynn's memory should equally be respected.

 

[EnolaGaia]

... Let’s be fair “do no harm” VS shooting someone in the face requires a fuck ton of cognitive dissonance to pull off. But then of course where do we get word hypocrisy from?

If you're alluding to "Hippocratic" versus "hypocrisy", they derive from two entirely separate sources.

hypocrisy (n.)​

c. 1200, ipocrisie, "the sin of pretending to virtue or goodness," from Old French ypocrisie, from Late Latin hypocrisis "hypocrisy," also "an imitation of a person's speech and gestures," from Attic Greek hypokrisis "acting on the stage; pretense," metaphorically, "hypocrisy," from hypokrinesthai"play a part, pretend," also "answer," from hypo- "under" (see hypo-) + middle voice of krinein "to sift, decide" (from PIE root *krei- "to sieve," thus "discriminate, distinguish"). The sense evolution in Attic Greek is from "separate gradually" to "answer" to "answer a fellow actor on stage" to "play a part." The h- was restored in English 16c.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/hypocrisy

Hippocratic (adj.)

1610s, from Medieval Latin Hippocraticus, "pertaining to Hippocrates" (c. 460-377 B.C.E.), the famous ancient Greek physician and "father of medicine." Hippocratic Oath is attested from 1747; it is in the spirit of Hippocrates but was not written by him. The Hippocratic face (1713) is the expression immediately before death or in extreme exhaustion, and is so called from his vivid description of it. The name is literally "one superior in horses;" from hippos "horse" (from PIE root *ekwo- "horse") + kratia "rule" (see -cracy).

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=hippocratic

 

[EnolaGaia]

Even Doctors have to fight for the freedom of their countries whereas Donoghue may have saved his CO's life he undoubtedly took many Indian lives.

Che Guevara - a revolutionary enforcer who executed many people (even personally) - was a physician who'd served as a medic / medical officer in multiple rebel organizations.

 

[ramonmercado]

Che Guevara - a revolutionary enforcer who executed many people (even personally) - was a physician who'd served as a medic / medical officer in multiple rebel organizations.

Here is a fascinating piece about dueling doctors.

Although doctors and surgeons are usually associated with healing and the ethics of the Hippocratic Oath, the history of duelling, especially with pistols, provides fascinating instances of their involvement in organised combat. Whether it involved aiding in the organisation of a duel or pulling the trigger as a combatant, medical professionals were deeply entangled in the story of this ritualised form of violence. ...

In 1719 doctors John Woodward and Richard Mead famously fought with swords outside the gates of Gresham College, London over a medical dispute. According to popular reports, at one point Woodward slipped and fell to Mead’s mercy. When asked to beg for his life, Woodward allegedly replied, “Anything but your physic.”

Woodward and Mead were by no means the only doctors to try to kill one another. In fact, young medical practitioners became so well known for their duelling exploits that The Times represented the typical duellist as a medical student in a satirical piece in 1829. As if to prove the accuracy of the image, in July 1840 two medical students duelled in a park in Edinburgh. Only five months earlier, a physician and a surgeon shot at one another over the right to claim a medical discovery. ...

https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/YV8SSBIAACEAS207

 

[ramonmercado]

Che Guevara - a revolutionary enforcer who executed many people (even personally) - was a physician who'd served as a medic / medical officer in multiple rebel organizations.

Papa Doc was originally a doctor.

Duvalier's government was one of the most repressive in the Western Hemisphere.[31] Within the country he murdered and exiled his opponents; estimates of those killed are as high as 60,000.[3] Attacks on Duvalier from within the military were treated as especially serious. When bombs were detonated near the Presidential Palace in 1967, Duvalier had nineteen officers of the Presidential Guard executed in Fort Dimanche.[10]: 357  A few days later Duvalier gave a public speech during which he read the attendance sheet with names of all 19 officers killed. After each name, he said "absent". After reading the whole list, Duvalier remarked that "all were shot".[27]: 10–11 

Duvalier fostered his cult of personality and claimed that he was the physical embodiment of the island nation. He also revived the traditions of Vodou, later using them to consolidate his power with his claim of being a Vodou priest himself. In an effort to make himself even more imposing, Duvalier deliberately modeled his image on that of Baron Samedi, one of the lwa, or spirits, of Haitian Vodou. He often donned sunglasses in order to hide his eyes and talked with the strong nasal tone associated with the lwa. The regime's propaganda stated that "Papa Doc was one with the lwa, Jesus Christ and God himself".[12] The most celebrated image from the time shows a standing Jesus Christ with a hand on the shoulder of a seated Papa Doc, captioned, "I have chosen him".[33] Duvalier declared himself an "immaterial being" as well as "the Haitian flag" soon after his first election.[34] In 1964, he published a catechism in which the Lord's Prayer was heavily reworded to praise Duvalier instead of God.[34][35]

Duvalier also held in his closet the head of former opponent Blucher Philogenes, who tried to overthrow him in 1963.[27]: 132  He believed another political enemy, Clément Barbot, was able to change at will into a black dog and had the militia begin killing black dogs on sight in the capital. ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/François_Duvalier

 

[ramonmercado]

Interesting article about the RIC officers who joined the Palestine Police.

By 1922, violence between Arabs and Jews in Palestine was increasing and the local police force could often not be relied on to be impartial.

So a new British gendarmerie was established and it would be staffed almost exclusively by former RIC members.

Author and historian Seán Gannon says: "They wanted a sort of impartial, British crack squad that could be used to bolster the Palestine police and to deal with these intercommunal situations.

"The reason that they recruited RIC was the coincidence of the disbandment of the RIC - which they knew was coming in July 1921 with the truce - and the fact that they needed a police force in Palestine."

More than 780 former RIC men would go on to serve in Palestine. While many were former Auxiliaries and Black and Tans, just under 40% were Irish-born officers who were considered "original RIC". ...

Their experience in Palestine would be very different. Unlike the Irish War of Independence the police were not the target of violence.

"They were tough, they adopted a shoot-to-kill approach for bandits and brigands and when they did get physical it was brutal enough, but there were no mass casualties, there were no reprisals, they didn't burn houses or anything like what happened in Ireland," Dr Gannon says.

In June 1923, three former RIC men were killed in an ambush on the high commissioner's convoy, while there was a small number of suicides and fatal accidents.

But, overall, the period from 1922 to 1926 was largely peaceful. ...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-60031090

 

[hunck]

Never heard of this before:

London’s abandoned ‘Eiffel’ Tower

Wembley Stadium built on the site.

The tower was the brainchild of Edward Watkin, a British politician and railway tycoon whose previous endeavors included a failed attempt to build a tunnel under the English Channel, more than 100 years before the current Eurotunnel began construction.

Watkin had the audacity to ask Gustave Eiffel himself to design it, but the French engineer refused on patriotic grounds. His plan B was an international design competition, with a first prize of 500 guineas, about $80,000 in today's money.

"The winning proposal was a more slender version of the Eiffel Tower. Very similar in its overall profile, but the structure was sort of skinnier," says Costelloe. At 1,200 feet, it was also about 175 feet taller than its Parisian counterpart, which was the world's tallest building at the time.

Construction began in 1892, and the first stage -- approximately 150 feet tall -- was finished three years later.

"When they reached the first stage, it soon became clear that the building was subsiding. Not so badly that they couldn't use it, but they certainly realized they'd have big problems if they carried on building it higher, increasing the strain on the legs," says Costelloe.
Although it was opened to the public and elevators were installed, the tower was doomed.

This was as far as it got.

 

[EnolaGaia]

The failure of the tower project derived in large part from economics rather than any flaw in the originally selected design.

Here (on the left) is the design selected during the original design competition. Note the 8 "legs" incorporated within its base. The image on the right is the modified (structurally thinner; cheaper) design used for the eventual construction.

After an unsuccessful appeal for public subscription, the company could only proceed with the project with its own funds; Watkin commissioned a redesign and the octagonal design was scaled back to a cheaper, four-legged design that bore much more resemblance to the Eiffel Tower. ...

In September 1895 the first stage of the tower was completed, standing at approximately 47 metres (154 ft) high. ... It was soon discovered that the structure's foundations were unsteady — the reduction in the number of the tower's legs, carried out to reduce costs, had resulted in increased pressure on each leg and this was causing subsidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watkin's_Tower

 

[EnolaGaia]

The design chosen for the project was one of 68 formally submitted during the 1890 design competition.

An architectural design competition was held in 1890, and a total of 68 designs were submitted. Some of the more exotic proposals included a £1m tower inspired by the Leaning Tower of Pisa; a structure with "a captive parachute to hold four persons"; and a tower with a spiral railway climbing its exterior. One design included a 1/12-scale model of the Great Pyramid of Giza, envisioned as a "colony of aerial vegetarians, who would grow their own food in hanging gardens".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watkin's_Tower

Here's a sample illustration of some submitted designs. As you can see, some of the submissions were bizarre.

This 2014 Mental Floss article presents 21 larger images of design competition submissions (only some of which are included in the group illustration above).

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/58012/21-designs-great-tower-london-never-was

 

[Cochise]

The design chosen for the project was one of 68 formally submitted during the 1890 design competition.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watkin's_Tower

Here's a sample illustration of some submitted designs. As you can see, some of the submissions were bizarre.

View attachment 51791​

This 2014 Mental Floss article presents 21 larger images of design competition submissions (only some of which are included in the group illustration above).

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/58012/21-designs-great-tower-london-never-was

One or two of them look quite futuristic even now.

 

[CALGACUS03]

The second one on the page looks a bit like the Scott Monument (1836) in Edinburgh...

 

[Victory]

As a kid I knew it as Watkins Folly.

Not as a kid whilst it stood, but it was known about in my part of London.

The Londonist reproduces Mike Paterson of London Historians version of what it would look like in situe today.

 

[ramonmercado]

A jungle tale of survival and endurance which would have made for a great adventure film!

In 1945 Women’s Army Corps Cpl. Margaret Hastings went down aboard a C-47 in a remote New Guinea valley, launching an improbable story of survival​

Through most of World War II no one outside Margaret Hastings’ family and small circle of fellow soldiers knew her name, let alone the details of her life or service in uniform. All that changed dramatically after May 13, 1945, when a sightseeing flight aboard a U.S. Army Air Forces C-47 transport went horribly wrong, catapulting the diminutive corporal into stateside headlines amid a fight for survival in the jungles of New Guinea.

Born in northeastern Pennsylvania on Sept. 19, 1914, Margaret Julia “Maggie” Hastings grew up in Owego, N.Y., on the banks of the Susquehanna River south of the Finger Lakes. By all accounts she was a feisty tomboy with a rebellious streak that could get an otherwise “nice girl” into trouble. At the time of the 1941 Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the United States’ subsequent entry into World War II she was 27 years old, unmarried and working as an office secretary. In January 1944 she enlisted in the Women’s Army Corps (WAC) and spent most of the year in basic training, earning promotion to corporal.

That December Hastings shipped out with fellow WACs to New Guinea. She was 30, stood 5 feet 2 inches, weighed 100 pounds soaking wet and was pretty in a pouty sort of way that attracted suitors like honey draws bees. She was posted to the USAAF base in the port city of Hollandia, a former Japanese stronghold backed by jungle roughly midway along the north coast of the 1,560-mile-long island. She was among some 20 WACs doing secretarial work at the base. Though by that point in the war Hollandia was a backwater, the ranking WAC officer reportedly had been issued a pistol and instructed, in the event the Japanese overran them, to kill her sisters and herself rather than be captured. ...

On Sunday, May 13, 1945, Col. Peter J. Prossen—maintenance chief of the USAAF’s Far East Air Service Command, headquartered in Hollandia—arranged for a group of personnel to take a Douglas C-47 Skytrain on a sightseeing flight southward over the island’s interior. Their turnaround point that Mother’s Day was a verdant vale (the present-day Baliem Valley) high in the Oranje Mountains (present-day Jayawijaya Mountains), which form the backbone of central New Guinea. A pilot on a reconnaissance flight in May 1944 had stumbled across the dale and dubbed it “Hidden Valley.” Surrounded by tall peaks, it is more than 30 miles long and 10 miles wide with a river meandering from end to end. Though it lay within 150 miles of Hollandia, no path into or out of the valley was visible from the air. But there were ample signs of human activity, as the valley was home to tens of thousands of Dani, spear-wielding hunter-gatherers living a Stone Age existence.

Explorers had made first contact with the Dani seven years earlier. Nevertheless, rumors persisted they were headhunters who practiced cannibalism and human sacrifice. The beauty and isolation of the valley fascinated every American who came to Hollandia, so much so that Army Air Forces pilots provided regular sightseeing tours. A couple of reporters who took one of those tours dubbed the valley “Shangri-la,” and the name stuck.

On the afternoon of May 13 two dozen Army personnel—including five crewmen and nine WACs—boarded the C-47. Nicknamed Gremlin Special and piloted by Prossen himself, the Skytrain took off in clear weather for what was officially termed “navigational training.” The aircraft was scheduled to return in time for Hastings to keep a date—a moonlight swim with Staff Sgt. Walter L. “Wally” Fleming of Lanse, Penn. They never got that swim.

By the time the C-47 reached the valley, clouds had closed in. Unable to determine his exact position, Prossen circled for a few minutes and then opted to descend. Given the weather and the surrounding terrain, it was a poor decision. Within moments of beginning the descent Gremlin Special slammed into the side of a mountain overlooking the valley floor. Nineteen of those aboard—including Prossen and his copilot, Maj. George H. Nicholson—died instantly. Despite burns and cuts on her legs Hastings was able to walk away from the wreckage, as were Lt. John S. McCollom and Staff Sgt. Kenneth W. Decker. McCollom had minor cuts and bruises, while Decker had an ugly head wound, a broken right arm and severe burns. From the wreckage the trio pulled two critically wounded WACs, Staff Sgt. Laura E. Besley and Pfc. Eleanor P. Hanna. Both died soon afterward from their injuries. ...

https://www.historynet.com/margaret-hastings-shangri-la.htm

 

[ramonmercado]

Pa Sorie didn't die alone but the role of West African soldiers who served in the British Army in WW2 has been largely forgotten.
.
Samuel Sorie Sesay, one of a dwindling group of West Africans who fought in the British army in World War Two, died last month in Sierra Leone at the age of 101. Ahead of his funeral on Friday, Umaru Fofana looks back at his life.

His memories were vivid but he felt forgotten.

Celebrating a century of life in 2020 and surrounded by his large family, Pa Sorie, as he was known, was keen to talk. Dressed in a neat suit, adorned with his medals, the affable war veteran recounted stories of his time fighting the Japanese in Burma more than 75 years earlier. He was one of the 90,000 West African troops who were shipped to Asia. They formed two divisions that are rarely memorialised and fought in a conflict that was overshadowed by events closer to Britain's shores.

Adding to the feeling of being ignored, Pa Sorie, like many of his comrades, said that he had been promised a lump-sum payment after the war which he never received.

When it came to a pension, the British army did not pay them to World War Two veterans, unless they had been injured in fighting, regardless of where they came from. But a document uncovered in 2019 indicated that African soldiers were paid less than their British counterparts while in service.

Pa Sorie did however get money from a UK-based charity, the Royal Commonwealth Ex-Services League.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-60301758

 

[ChasFink]

Never heard of this before:

London’s abandoned ‘Eiffel’ Tower

...

The idea of a large structure that was never built reminds me of the plans to build a full size replica of the starship Enterprise in downtown Las Vegas. This would have been in the 1990s, and therefore the 1701-A version. Everyone agreed to it at first, but Paramount pulled out before construction began because they were afraid it would be an embarrassment as it aged.

A more modest Star Trek attraction eventually opened at the Las Vegas Hilton that included a nice museum and an immersive theatrical experience that actually made you feel like you were teleported to the Enterprise D transporter room, and culminated in a simulator ride.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/star-trek-saga-how-starship-913891/

 

[marhawkman]

Pa Sorie didn't die alone but the role of West African soldiers who served in the British Army in WW2 has been largely forgotten.
.
Samuel Sorie Sesay, one of a dwindling group of West Africans who fought in the British army in World War Two, died last month in Sierra Leone at the age of 101. Ahead of his funeral on Friday, Umaru Fofana looks back at his life.

His memories were vivid but he felt forgotten.

Celebrating a century of life in 2020 and surrounded by his large family, Pa Sorie, as he was known, was keen to talk. Dressed in a neat suit, adorned with his medals, the affable war veteran recounted stories of his time fighting the Japanese in Burma more than 75 years earlier. He was one of the 90,000 West African troops who were shipped to Asia. They formed two divisions that are rarely memorialised and fought in a conflict that was overshadowed by events closer to Britain's shores.

Adding to the feeling of being ignored, Pa Sorie, like many of his comrades, said that he had been promised a lump-sum payment after the war which he never received.

When it came to a pension, the British army did not pay them to World War Two veterans, unless they had been injured in fighting, regardless of where they came from. But a document uncovered in 2019 indicated that African soldiers were paid less than their British counterparts while in service.

Pa Sorie did however get money from a UK-based charity, the Royal Commonwealth Ex-Services League.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-60301758

Aren't these the guys who Rommel fought?

 

[Mungoman]

Aren't these the guys who Rommel fought?

And a few Aussies and Kiwi's...and others too, I suppose - now forgotten.

 

[marhawkman]

And a few Aussies and Kiwi's...and others too, I suppose - now forgotten.

anyone who could hold off Rommel is worthy of respect.

 

[ramonmercado]

Aren't these the guys who Rommel fought?

Some of them fought Rommel, others were sent to the Far East.

 

[ramonmercado]

History put in context.

A leading Nigerian artist tells writer Molara Woods why his new installation at London's St Paul's Cathedral is important, as the world-famous building re-evaluates its memorials to historical figures including the admiral who led the campaign that resulted in the looting of the Kingdom of Benin.

Spotlights pick out the rhinestones in Victor Ehikhamenor's giant rosary-bead tapestry so that it sparkles, brightening up part of the crypt in the 17th Century cathedral. This image of the oba, or king, of Benin dominates the space, through which thousands of visitors pass every week, and draws the eye.

Next to it - barely readable and tarnished through time - is a much smaller brass memorial plaque in honour of Admiral Sir Harry Holdsworth Rawson, who led a punitive expedition in 1897 to the West African kingdom of Benin. He oversaw the British soldiers and sailors who destroyed a centuries-old civilisation, looting and burning down the oba's palace in what is now Benin City in the Nigerian state of Edo.
Their looted treasures - thousands of metal sculptures and ivory carvings made between the 15th and 19th Centuries and collectively known as the Benin Bronzes - are now at the centre of a debate about the return of artefacts taken during the colonial era.

But as his plaque recalls, Rawson was revered at the time for his exploits right across the British Empire.

IMAGE SOURCE,GETTY IMAGES
Image caption, Sculptures looted by British soldiers from the Kingdom of Benin in 1897 have ended up across the world

Through memorials to hundreds of historical British figures, St Paul's presents a version of the past. But in an ongoing art project the cathedral authorities are attempting to bring new perspectives. Ehikhamenor's 12ft-tall work (3.7m), Still Standing, was specially commissioned as part of the 50 Monuments in 50 Voices project to tell different stories.

"There is something very powerful about seeing an oba standing there next to the panel memorialising the Benin campaign," the cathedral's chancellor, Dr Paula Gooder, told the BBC.

The work is also a reminder of "the enduring legacies and losses of colonial war", the exhibit's co-curator Prof Dan Hicks said.

St Paul's has decided not to get rid of any of its monuments, recognising that "people had different values" in the past, and instead wants to "engage in a conversation with history," Dr Gooder explained.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-60429725

 

[marhawkman]

yeah, this urge to destroy the bad parts of history.... is... a problem, since it means turning history into a bunch of check boxes. There's a long list of "bad" cultures. Various reasons to be sure, differently bad, but there's a lot of bad.

 

[Mungoman]

yeah, this urge to destroy the bad parts of history.... is... a problem, since it means turning history into a bunch of check boxes. There's a long list of "bad" cultures. Various reasons to be sure, differently bad, but there's a lot of bad.

We would never expunge the history of the third reich...or Chinngis Kahn, or Cortes...so lets leave HH Rawson where it is. As a reminder of his

Infamous behaviour. Opinions may vary.

 

[marhawkman]

We would never expunge the history of the third reich...or Chinngis Kahn, or Cortes...so lets leave HH Rawson where it is. As a reminder of his

Infamous behaviour. Opinions may vary.

Well, a lot of the people who rant about how evil the Third Reich was.... turn them into cardboard cutouts and ignore most of their crimes. It's weird, emphasizing how evil a group was... but only talking about one of their many, many crimes.

So yeah, they are trying to expunge the history of the group even if not trying to expunge their existence. :/

 

[Solexman]

Things only become bad in retrospect. Which is what history is. Our perspective.

 

[CALGACUS03]

I said earlier in the week (in another thread) that I'd post here about a Frenchman who came to a sticky end in Scotland.

It was Antoine d'Arcie, sieur de la Bastie-sur-Meylan and of Lissieu, the White Knight (Chevalier Blanc), who was a French ambassador to Scotland in the 16th century. He fell foul of the Home family after he was given the post of Warden of the East Marches (a role that the Homes believed was theirs by right), and:

"being ane stranger, and not knawing the ground weill, he laired his hors in ane mos, and thair his enemies cam upoun him, and slew and murthered him verrie unhonestlie, and cutted aff his head and carried with thame. And it was said that he had long hair plett in his neck quhilk David Home of Wedderburne knitt to his saidle bow and keipt it." - Robert Lindsey of Pitscottie, The Historie and Chronicles of Scotland, 1436–1565

His head was apparently set upon a pole in Duns marketplace as a warning to others not to cross the Homes. Also it's reported that the head remained in the possession of the Homes of Wedderburn for three hundred years (I wonder what they did with it in the end)?

There's a monument to him near Preston in the Scottish borders that marks where his body was buried.

 

[ramonmercado]

When Collins was hidden by Dublin Jews.

New evidence of Michael Collins evading the Black and Tans by masquerading as an elderly Jewish man on his way to synagogue, and speaking "gibberish" has been unearthed by genealogist Stuart Rosenblatt.

Jews were for centuries the second-largest religious group in Ireland. Those who attended the Dublin Hebrew Congregation, then at Adelaide Road Synagogue passed down the tale orally and Rosenblatt first heard of it from the late Julie Lapedus, a participant. He has also heard ‘secondhand’ accounts, including one from the late Sybil Fishman, whose father was also a witness. Had they not sheltered Collins, who knows what would have happened to Irish independence as we know it?

Rosenblatt said: “The Easter rising coincided with Passover celebrations and many Jewish families drew parallels between the Hebrew fight for freedom; Moses taking us from Egypt and the Irish independence struggle.” ...

One fateful Friday afternoon in 1920, the Tans descended on Longwood Avenue. The area between Leonard’s and Kelly’s corner was blocked off by either an armoured car or lorry and then the searches commenced. They swept every house and took some away for questioning. ...

Soldiers were bombarded with Yiddish, Russian, Lithuanian, and Polish, leading to more confusion. The Black and Tans, in an effort to rid themselves of the crowd, stepped aside and allowed them to go worship.

As they reached Walworth Road, Reverend Gudansky and his aged companion stopped and shook hands. The man removed his hat and boomed: “Thank you! Thank you!” to the crowd in a Cork accent. He was none other than Michael Collins in disguise. He winked and said: “I will send for the bicycle later” and darted away to his next hideout.

A note from Quentin Crivon to Rosenblatt adds a wonderful addendum to this story: Michael Collins first went into Crivon’s grandfather, Joseph Kervon’s house, on Longwood Avenue and jumped over the wall into Reverend Gudansky’s back garden next door, because it was a safer pathway to enter unnoticed. And the rest is history. It seems most likely that he had borrowed his clever disguise - the traditional Jewish garb from the Reverend’s house.

Rosenblatt has written about this incident in his book, Moments to Remember in Jewish Ireland. ...

Stuart Rosenblatt is seeking further information about Irish Jewish history or genealogy. See www.irishjewishroots.com or email [email protected].

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40822321.html