Hong Kong Protests & The Umbrella Movement

James_H

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Has anybody actually addressed how much of a barrel the pro-democracy protests actually have the "Communists" over? If Xi is seen to crack down on HK too hard, business will flee HK, and China's economy is already slowing down thanks to Trump's trade war. The only think keeping the "Communists" in power is their ability to provide prosperity, and when that is taken away, their primary lever of power becomes the Red Army, which means a return to chaos. One thing is certain, Xi is no Deng, and the question of whether he understands the fragility of his grip on power is moot. There are a lot of Maoists in the Red Army who don't like modern China's prosperity, and see it as a betrayal of the Revolution. As to how many democrats there are in the Red Army... Up for grabs doesn't even begin to describe it.
The counter to that is that Hong Kong is a much smaller part of the Chinese economy than it used to be. They don't need Hong Kong for moneymaking when they have Shenzhen, Shanghai, etc as equals (remember your phone and computer were probably made in Shenzhen, as was your internet router, and so on). The problem is more one of image: Hong Kong is a public face of China to the world and crackdowns here will bear much more international scrutiny than they would in Nowheresville, Hubei. Repressive measures happen all the time in China and apart from some interest in xinjiang and Tibet (sorry, Xizang), we hear very little about them.
 

INT21

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People in Hong Kong are used to certain freedoms that we also take for granted in the UK (democracy not included). I'd like to think that in the UK we would also go to lengths to defend those freedoms were they to be taken away suddenly.
It is the protestors who are likely to be the cause of the current Hong Kong freedoms being curtailed.

Most countries have extradition agreements that allow some other country to get hold of a person or people that they wish to question for some reason. It is not something that they take lightly.

The country holding the wanted person does not usually have to agree to hand them over.

America is very keen to get hold of some 'people of interest', but doesn't always succeed.

If Lam has scrapped the agreement, then the first time Hong Kong wants someone to be extradited from China, she is going to be out of luck.

INT21.
 

James_H

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There are allegations that some people died at the hands of police at Prince Edward station yesterday evening on August 31. This doesn't seem to be confirmed yet, and seems like more or less an unsubstantiated rumour. A memorial with flowers and notes was put up by members of the public and later torn down by POs.
 
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James_H

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Police guard cleanup operations on 'Lennon walls' (areas where protestors post posters and notes).



Things should get really interesting on October 1, China's national day. It's not far off.
 

James_H

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Dead bodies show up. This fits into normal suicide statistics (high), though some conspiracy theorists say that the police are dumping the bodies of those they've allegedly illegally killed (security footage was never released for a major protest last month, and several have been missing since. The rumour is that some protestors died at police hands).

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/d92vrb
 

maximus otter

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HONG KONG, Oct 1 (Reuters) - Hong Kong police fired tear gas and rubber bullets at pro-democracy protesters throwing petrol bombs in the Asian financial hub on Tuesday as its Chinese rulers celebrated the 70th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic.

Cat-and-mouse clashes spread from the upmarket district of Causeway Bay to the Admiralty area of government offices on Hong Kong island. Violence also escalated across the harbour to Kowloon and beyond to the New Territories in the most widespread unrest in nearly four months.

The South China Morning Post and television reports said at least one person was wounded in the chest by police firing live rounds. Police did not respond to requests for comment but have said they fired live rounds into the air in previous clashes.


Video footage of a police officer firing at a protester at close range went viral, but there was not immediate verification of its authenticity.

Fifteen people were wounded across the territory, one critically, the Hospital Authority said without giving details.

http://news.trust.org/item/20191001094110-0o7wr

maximus otter
 
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James_H

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Video footage of a police officer firing at a protester at close range went viral, but there was not immediate verification of its authenticity.
It appears to be confirmed now.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...d-across-hong-kong-anti-government-protesters

I have actually been out today (just got home), luckily nowhere near any of the many places where fighting is happening. I got a lift back with a bandmate – again on some of the roads which aren't blocked. The part of town where I was felt like a ghost town in the afternoon, with nearly empty streets. Most people presumably either waiting it out at home or joining in the protests themselves elsewhere.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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China to ban the wearing of masks.

Quite amusing to see the proliferation of Guy Fawkes masks amongst the pro-democracy demonstrators.
Ever since V for Vendetta, these masks have become a symbol of people's resistance against totalitarianism.

Whether it's the full Guy Fawkes visage or just a simple bandana across the mouth and nose (which doubles as some protection against tear gas), does the Beijing regime really believe they can criminalise and arrest hundreds of thousands of Hong Kong citizens?
Will they try to ban umbrellas next?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-49918889
 

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James_H

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Halloween is going to be interesting then.

There are rumors of a curfew this week.
 

James_H

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I'm on my way home now. It feels very tense on the ground. After-school activities have been cancelled for today and tomorrow. People have been leaving work early and the trains are crowded. There were people in the train station wearing masks and chanting slogans. All the shops are shutting. Various malls have been occupied by protestors. There's a big feeling that it's all about to blow up in response to this law.
 

James_H

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I can't see that this legislation will help with anything apart from making people angrier. It certainly won't stop people wearing masks - I've seen more people than usual wearing them in contempt of the law. It's just adding oil to the fire (not in the 'Hong Kong people add oil!' [加油] sense).

The problem is that enacting emergency measures can be a slippery slope. It's the classic way for totalitarianism to get its foot in the door.
 

James_H

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Latest conspiracy rumour: Beijing ordered this act to be introduced in a deliberate move to stoke the fire, giving them the mandate to move in with the army.

*****

There were also photos circulating of trucks full of pla soldiers in Urban areas yesterday, however none were deployed during yesterday's protest. It's hard to know the provenance of a photo - they came from Joshua Wong's Twitter account; he says it was a 'parade' run as a scare tactic.

*****

Sadly, another teenager has been shot with a live round, this time by an off duty police officer (what he was doing carrying a handgun around during a riot is anyone's guess of course, but the police stand behind him even though I would have thought this to be illegal). Once again, the teenager is still alive.
 

James_H

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Another thing: the entire MTR (underground) network has been shut down today. They cite fears for staff safety: the MTR corporation has been accused of collusion with the police and their property has been targeted by demonstrators.

There is of course speculation that 'maybe they know something we don't' about 'something big' due to happen this long weekend (Monday is a public holiday) and are shutting down pre-emptively.

What 'something big' is is left undefined but I imagine that everyone is scared that a state of emergency will be declared and the PLA will come in.

There's been another broadcast SMS from the police warning about 'severe disruption' in 'the coming days' so maybe something will go down. However it's possible that it's just in anticipation of continued protests.
 

INT21

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James_H,

There seems to be a certain 'one-sided'ness about this.

You mention the subways being closed. But not the people setting fires in the subway entrances.

Nor do you mention the 'protestors' smashing the card-reading machines that passengers need to use to access the system.

Not the damage being inflicted on the cities infrastructure.

Or am I missing something here ?

INT21.
 

INT21

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While I'm here (never know how long a post will stay up) how about someone explaining in detail exactly what it is these so called protesters are demanding ? ooops, almost said anarchist there.

Free votes and a democracy ? They are the freest most privileged people in China.

And China is a one party communist state. Or haven't they noticed that yet ?

A couple of shots fired at people who are trying to beat up the police, are throwing petrol bombs at them, Maybe they should go over to the mainland and try the same tactics; see how far it gets them

INT21.
 

James_H

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While I'm here (never know how long a post will stay up) how about someone explaining in detail exactly what it is these so called protesters are demanding ? ooops, almost said anarchist there.
They have five demands. The first one has been met: withdrawal of the extradition bill. The other four are:

External enquiry into police conduct

Retraction of the word 'rioters' used on protestors (that ship has surely sailed by now)

Amnesty for arrested protestors

Universal suffrage (democracy)

https://m.yp.scmp.com/hongkongprotests5demands
 

James_H

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I admit that I see government oppression as a fairly one-sided issue. I'm not in favour. None of this would have happened if the government in Hong Kong were accountable to the populace, which is the theory in democracy.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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"They are the freest most privileged people in China."

And they want to stay that way.

"And China is a one party communist state. Or haven't they noticed that yet ?"

And the brutal communist state will never change if citizens simply lie back and take the totalitarian shit.
I admire the pro-democracy protesters. It seems pretty shabby to sneer at them from your position of safety and comfort.
 

maximus otter

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“Here's that hippie, pro-privacy, pro-freedom Apple y'all so love: Hong Kong protest safety app banned from iOS store

Trying to avoid cops, live rounds, tear gas? Oh no, you don't, say Cook & Co

Apple has banned an app that allows people in Hong Kong to keep track of protests and police activity in the city state, claiming such information is illegal.

Your app contains content - or facilitates, enables, and encourages an activity - that is not legal ... specifically, the app allowed users to evade law enforcement," the American tech giant told makers of the HKmap Live on Tuesday before pulling it.”

https://www.theregister.co.uk/AMP/2019/10/02/apple_hong_kong/?__twitter_impression=true

maximus otter
 
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On Sky News right now you can see the protesters beating a policeman on the ground and trying to burn to death with a petrol bomb, he actually catches on fire. This was the incident in which a youth was wounded. Does anyone here apart from Int and myself have a problem with the attacks on police?
 

James_H

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Does anyone here apart from Int and myself have a problem with the attacks on police?
Yes, I don't think it's a good thing to retaliate with violence. I also know that many police officers feel embattled because all of a sudden everyone hates them, when they are just following orders.
 

escargot

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On Sky News right now you can see the protesters beating a policeman on the ground and trying to burn to death with a petrol bomb, he actually catches on fire. This was the incident in which a youth was wounded. Does anyone here apart from Int and myself have a problem with the attacks on police?
It's a bad thing because a. life-threatening violence against people is generally unacceptable - we're not talking 'Punch a Fascist' here - and b. attacking the police will draw serious retaliation.
 

maximus otter

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...life-threatening violence against people is generally unacceptable - we're not talking 'Punch a Fascist' here...
Because punching someone with whose politics you disagree is “generally acceptable”? l mean, as long as you’ve decided that they’re a “fascist”, obviously.

maximus otter
 
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