If All Doubt Were Gone...

gattino

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I've recently been watching several UFO documentaries. It's not a subject I've given much attention to for years.

I'm aware that any book or documentary on a given subject is by its nature selecting evidence solely in line with its own argument. But that awareness aside my recent viewing is enough to once again make me believe that there may indeed be intelligently operated craft beyond current human capabilities floating around with impunity. Some of it - seemingly - may be immense in size. And that thought suddenly scared me.

Other people express a longing or excitement to believe in little green men. But if it stopped being a subject of argument and conjecture and either by government disclosure or one of these things exposing itself to the full glare of the world's media, we woke up tomorrow to know for a fact that non human intelligent beings vastly more advanced than us were real and were here how would we feel? I think it would scare the bejesus out of me. Not for fear of what they would do - for 70 years they don't seem to have bothered doing much of anything - but rather fear of a deep, gut, existential kind about what their presence might mean about reality and our human concepts of consciousness and god and life after death and other imponderables. It's hard to imagine they would share our comforting notions or not know more than us.

Our relative powerlessness would instill awe in the true sense. A giant spaceship may as well be a god descending.

So..imagining the reality of "alien" spacecraft were fully confirmed tomorrow..how do you imagine you'd feel?
 
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Frideswide

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Yes. I think that the main reason that I don't really engage with the topic is that I don't understand how the "believers" stay so calm about it!

Edit to add: and also, I would be amongst the first to welcome our new reptilian overlords! :eek:
 

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My initial reaction would be to find a hole to hide in until I'd established that humans weren't being wiped out.
Then, if all was OK, I'd emerge to accept the situation.
I can't imagine that a hugely advanced civilisation would come here with the intention of wiping us out. The universe is so huge that there is room for everyone.
 

feinman

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Yes. I think that the main reason that I don't really engage with the topic is that I don't understand how the "believers" stay so calm about it!

Edit to add: and also, I would be amongst the first to welcome our new reptilian overlords! :eek:
Believers are different from experiencers; experiencers are often traumatized by their encounter(s), or permanently changed by them. Believers without experience perhaps have the luxury of staying calm about the subject. I personally have been on a crusade since my experience and am pretty frustrated with others' calm about the situation!
 

Schrodinger's Zebra

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I honestly don't think that I'd feel any differently than I do now.

I mean, I think there probably exists beings from other worlds - I find it hard to believe that this planet contains the only intelligent (or not-so-intelligent!) life in the multiverse, so... if someone told me that definitely there was, it would just be confirmation of what I already think anyway, you know?

As for coming here to attack us... as Mr Zebra has rightly pointed out (I just asked him what he would think, and he feels the same as me)... they've had plenty opportunity to attack up until now and haven't.

(Not to mention we're perfectly capable of attacking each other without aliens to do it for us). ;)

As for how it would make me feel about god and life after death... well I don't know if there is a god or not (I'm agnostic) but I don't think the presence or lack thereof of aliens makes a jot of difference to that.
 

gattino

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My own reference to consciousness has my mind speculating wildly about their nature ( assuming there to be a they). It's not a novel idea that there's a psychic aspect to the UFO phenomenon. They're experienced for real but like Bigfoot are always just out of reach of the rest of us. Sightings - sincere, genuine - of them seem to increase and wain with the times and pop culture. Nothing about their behaviour makes sense. If they're trying to evade being noticed they're not doing a very good job. But if they're trying to be noticed they're doing a worse one. They've been around at least 70 years, if not thousands but have not landed on the proverbial whitehouse lawn. The answer usually given is why would they? We're irrelevant to them. But if we're irrelevant to them why bother to be evasive at all? If the American govt has knowledge of them or has caught one and keeping it secret why haven't they equally crashed on the territory of America's rivals and enemies...is every govt in the world in on the the same conspiracy?

Nothing makes sense. But they do appear to physically exist.

I may be wrong but didnt Jung argue they were a kind of tulpa..an external real world projection of the collective unconscious. With that in mind @feinman 's encounter ( which I just looked up) has an intriguing detail. He saw several glowing metallic spheres in the sky near, he later discovered , the location of a UFO conference. He ruled out any involvement of the attendees themselves but it seems a happy coincidence. Is it perhaps evidence that the gathering collectively , unconsciously, brought them briefly into existence at that time and place?
 

INT21

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gattino,

It's a pretty strong psychic projection that can (allegedly) abduct people.
 

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I believe that if space aliens wanted to wipe out the human race they would not attack us as we expect but maybe engineer a virus and do it that way (only joking). If there is inteligent life out there then I'm sure they would have rules about contacting primative species in order not to scare them or change their progress, until they have been educated through sci fi films and books. Just a thought.
 

gattino

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gattino,

It's a pretty strong psychic projection that can (allegedly) abduct people.
That's assuming the abduction phenomenon is itself real and actually linked to the UFO phenomenon. They may be separate things.

Also the word projection wasn't intended to imply immaterial or insubstantial. Quite the opposite.

It's not as outlandish as it sounds ( well it is, but perhaps I should say not as unprecedented). The physical effects in poltergeist cases suggest some direct influence of mental forces on nuts and bolts reality, showing no respect to physical laws.
 

feinman

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My own reference to consciousness has my mind speculating wildly about their nature ( assuming there to be a they). It's not a novel idea that there's a psychic aspect to the UFO phenomenon. They're experienced for real but like Bigfoot are always just out of reach of the rest of us. Sightings - sincere, genuine - of them seem to increase and wain with the times and pop culture. Nothing about their behaviour makes sense. If they're trying to evade being noticed they're not doing a very good job. But if they're trying to be noticed they're doing a worse one. They've been around at least 70 years, if not thousands but have not landed on the proverbial whitehouse lawn. The answer usually given is why would they? We're irrelevant to them. But if we're irrelevant to them why bother to be evasive at all? If the American govt has knowledge of them or has caught one and keeping it secret why haven't they equally crashed on the territory of America's rivals and enemies...is every govt in the world in on the the same conspiracy?

Nothing makes sense. But they do appear to physically exist.
I think what is happening and has been happening for a long time is a certain level of contact --the level we are ready for. We are not advanced, developed or evolved enough to have full contact; we can barely deal with other apes with different colored skins or belief systems, much less incredibly advanced alien devices. If one were to put a pushpin into a globe for every encounter over time, it would almost totally obscure that globe; we have the level of contact we can deal with. Just look at the instances where the device have been shot at by idiot humans, even in the 19th century.. The contact is enough to establish the reality of the UFOs for a good portion of the population, without causing a War of the Worlds tipping point; half of the people believe in their reality, and a lot of people who have had their own experiences or lived through one of the great waves know they are real. The militaries and governments of the world are aware of the reality of UFOs, too, and know that they are powerless before them, thus the cover ups and plausible (?) denials. They have insinuated themselves into our peripheral vision and awareness over the centuries as part of a strategy of contact; they have engaged in tactics such as revealing themselves in certain times and places in particular ways to ensure a level of contact, and have done an excellent job of it. I would recommend such a strategy were we ever to discover advanced life elsewhere too.
 

feinman

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I may be wrong but didn't Jung argue they were a kind of tulpa..an external real world projection of the collective unconscious. With that in mind @feinman 's encounter ( which I just looked up) has an intriguing detail. He saw several glowing metallic spheres in the sky near, he later discovered , the location of a UFO conference. He ruled out any involvement of the attendees themselves but it seems a happy coincidence. Is it perhaps evidence that the gathering collectively , unconsciously, brought them briefly into existence at that time and place?
I think we need to understand what incredibly "advanced" means.. The bizarre circumstances and synchronicities of UFO sightings are evidence of UFOs operating in an information universe beyond our understanding --imagine actions taken by a godlike AI that can know the sum of human knowledge, individual minds, connections across space and time that appear magical to us.. That's what "advanced" is. My objects were also seen in 1958 in Nevada, by Leeroy Chiao from the International Space Station, and by and air force pilot and cop in Roseburg, Oregon, some months after my sighting. They are real physical objects with tremendous energy --it's just incredibly hard to believe they can suddenly appear places, but that's what they do!...
 
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gattino

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More random ramblings on the connection with consciousness. Many of the fortean subjects that intrigue us here - from precognition to telepathy to psychokinesis and after death communication - as well as many theories about the quantum realm all revolve around the strongly drawn inference that consciousness is more than, extends beyond and maybe exists without our physical brain. Certainly that its the elusive hard problem in science. Well if that applies to us then it surely applies to other conscious entities. And a civilisation thousands, perhaps millions of years ahead of us would surely have long gotten to the bottom of the nature and application of it. If so its not hard to think that mechanically engineered vessels for travelling through space would be redundant to such a civilisation. They could - one might imagine - interact with our world at the level of the mind rather than metal objects. Perhaps. And maybe that explains the elusiveness of it all.

Another imponderable is that the notion of greys and , largely forgotten nordics and reptilians is problematic. They're all humanoid. Two arms, two legs, a head with two forward facing eyes and a mouth. Of the millions , perhaps billions of life forms that have sprung up on earth from microbes to viruses to grass to wasps to oak trees to elephants, pretty much nothing looks like humans except other primates. If "aliens" look anything like us then they can't be that alien at all. They must in some sense belong here. Now that's a thought.
 

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I would not trust UFO documentaries for verified, credible facts to inform your opinion. This is a pop-cultural trope that has been around for so long and moves with the times. Like with many paranormal mysteries, when closely examined, many UFO/alien/abduction claims fall apart. It's also important to notice how UFOs (UAPs), Bigfoot and cryptids, psychic claims, demons, and other paranormal phenomena have morphed with alternative archaeology into modern New Age ufology, enhanced by those who exploit the military complex, to produce a very viable cultural product. Something may be going on regarding people's experiences but there is also a tremendous amount of utter bullshit going on as well. People want something to believe in and UFOs are hot. Yet, we know nothing more than we did 50 years ago.
 

INT21

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If it walks like a duck and quakes like a duck ?
 

feinman

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More random ramblings on the connection with consciousness. Many of the fortean subjects that intrigue us here - from precognition to telepathy to psychokinesis and after death communication - as well as many theories about the quantum realm all revolve around the strongly drawn inference that consciousness is more than, extends beyond and maybe exists without our physical brain. Certainly that its the elusive hard problem in science. Well if that applies to us then it surely applies to other conscious entities. And a civilisation thousands, perhaps millions of years ahead of us would surely have long gotten to the bottom of the nature and application of it. If so its not hard to think that mechanically engineered vessels for travelling through space would be redundant to such a civilisation. They could - one might imagine - interact with our world at the level of the mind rather than metal objects. Perhaps. And maybe that explains the elusiveness of it all.

Another imponderable is that the notion of greys and , largely forgotten nordics and reptilians is problematic. They're all humanoid. Two arms, two legs, a head with two forward facing eyes and a mouth. Of the millions , perhaps billions of life forms that have sprung up on earth from microbes to viruses to grass to wasps to oak trees to elephants, pretty much nothing looks like humans except other primates. If "aliens" look anything like us then they can't be that alien at all. They must in some sense belong here. Now that's a thought.
The humanoids are odd indeed, but there may be some reason for them if the devices can cross space and time in ways we are unaccustomed to. I don't have a good explanation for them. I think UFOs are physical devices but incredibly advanced --they seem to be itinerant explorers keeping us under surveillance over time. Even very advanced AI could rely on physical devices or probes. Just creating devices that can travel those distances and interact and communicate information is evidence of an amazing accomplishment. The paper floated some time ago about the universe being a simulation might give one an idea of what something 500,000 years more advanced might be capable of. We might be an amazing oasis of very different life they have discovered and they want to continue to observe us.
 

feinman

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I would not trust UFO documentaries for verified, credible facts to inform your opinion. This is a pop-cultural trope that has been around for so long and moves with the times. Like with many paranormal mysteries, when closely examined, many UFO/alien/abduction claims fall apart. It's also important to notice how UFOs (UAPs), Bigfoot and cryptids, psychic claims, demons, and other paranormal phenomena have morphed with alternative archaeology into modern New Age ufology, enhanced by those who exploit the military complex, to produce a very viable cultural product. Something may be going on regarding people's experiences but there is also a tremendous amount of utter bullshit going on as well. People want something to believe in and UFOs are hot. Yet, we know nothing more than we did 50 years ago.
A lot of these clowns --like hair guy and Childress certainly fall into that category --but they have never seen UFOs or apparently done much real research on them.
 

feinman

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Before my experience in 2010, since I began to read the "Antimatter" section of Omni magazine when I was a kid and checked out the occasional children's nonfiction book on the subject, I thought UFOs likely were real, based on the number of sightings, seeming honesty of many witnesses, etc. But I didn't know much about them at all, really. Then I didn't really pay much attention to the subject for many years. But that day in 2010, once I realized what was happening, was the most amazing, mind-blowing day of my life. I call what I have now "Post-traumatic awe disorder". Then a second awakening when I collected the old articles, and could see my experience as part of a larger program of interaction through history. It was and is haunting to read about similar experiences people have had over time. So I began to post about the subject on forums. Then.. After a few years, the subject hit the news again, just as it had over past decades, and this time it was pretty big. Pretty amazing, indeed.
 

Schrodinger's Zebra

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One of my 'pet theories' is that the aliens/humanoid beings etc that we see here on earth haven't travelled from far distant planets at all, but are actually from another dimension. (Yes I strongly believe in alternate dimensions).

I do, as stated upthread, believe that there is probably life on other planets, but the idea that they travel all the way over here to abduct us, I'm not so sure about. But beings that are already 'here' in some sense (i.e. in another dimension) make much more sense to me... I think (as I've probably stated elsewhere on the forum) that it would explain a lot of paranormal phenomena: time slips, ghosts, to name a few (a "grand unified Zebs theory" if you will).

For example- a witness seeing a futuristic vehicle. Common ways of thinking tells us that it must be a UFO from a far off galaxy. But in my mind it is equally (or even more) possibly a timeslip of sorts - seeing into the future.


But yet another theory I ponder is that the reason that UFOs have seemingly 'changed with the times' (i.e. we've gone from seeing strange flying dirigibles to things that look like the spacecraft from 50s sci-fi magazines, etc, is that our brains cannot process what they actually look like so we just see them as the things that we know. (Or perhaps whoever/whatever is flying them, 'cloaks' them to match what they know we are familiar with).
 

blessmycottonsocks

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One of my 'pet theories' is that the aliens/humanoid beings etc that we see here on earth haven't travelled from far distant planets at all, but are actually from another dimension. (Yes I strongly believe in alternate dimensions).

I do, as stated upthread, believe that there is probably life on other planets, but the idea that they travel all the way over here to abduct us, I'm not so sure about. But beings that are already 'here' in some sense (i.e. in another dimension) make much more sense to me... I think (as I've probably stated elsewhere on the forum) that it would explain a lot of paranormal phenomena: time slips, ghosts, to name a few (a "grand unified Zebs theory" if you will).

For example- a witness seeing a futuristic vehicle. Common ways of thinking tells us that it must be a UFO from a far off galaxy. But in my mind it is equally (or even more) possibly a timeslip of sorts - seeing into the future.


But yet another theory I ponder is that the reason that UFOs have seemingly 'changed with the times' (i.e. we've gone from seeing strange flying dirigibles to things that look like the spacecraft from 50s sci-fi magazines, etc, is that our brains cannot process what they actually look like so we just see them as the things that we know. (Or perhaps whoever/whatever is flying them, 'cloaks' them to match what they know we are familiar with).
Or could they possibly be glimpses of the future?
The 19th century sightings seemed to be either of zeppelin-like aircraft or of rockets from a few decades in the future.
Similarly, Kenneth Arnold's 1947 sighting sounds rather like a description of today's stealth aircraft: "half-moon shaped ... something like a pie plate that was cut in half with a sort of a convex triangle in the rear",

It strikes me that there's something vaguely time-slippy about this.
 

Ringo

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I haven't been smoking anything I promise but a stupid thought just occurred to me (as they are want to do).

What if nearly all paranormal events are just "time slipping" - as in, there could be a fundamental flaw or adverse side effect of the universe which sometimes causes time to overlap and bleed through. How many different supernatural or paranormal experiences/subjects, thought to be subjects in their own right, could be caused by such a flaw:

Deja vu, Clairvoyance
Time slips/Glitches in the matrix/Dimensional slips (obviously)
Bigfoot (seeing early hominids)
UFO's (seeing vehicles from the future)
Ghosts (People from the past or future)


i know I'm clutching at straws but the idea amused me - instead of having a raft of "paranormal" things, what if they were all just demonstrations of one thing which we are becomging increasingly aware of. Maybe the paranormal things are the symptoms and the time slipping universe is the actual illness.
 

gordonrutter

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I haven't been smoking anything I promise but a stupid thought just occurred to me (as they are want to do).

What if nearly all paranormal events are just "time slipping" - as in, there could be a fundamental flaw or adverse side effect of the universe which sometimes causes time to overlap and bleed through. How many different supernatural or paranormal experiences/subjects, thought to be subjects in their own right, could be caused by such a flaw:

Deja vu, Clairvoyance
Time slips/Glitches in the matrix/Dimensional slips (obviously)
Bigfoot (seeing early hominids)
UFO's (seeing vehicles from the future)
Ghosts (People from the past or future)


i know I'm clutching at straws but the idea amused me - instead of having a raft of "paranormal" things, what if they were all just demonstrations of one thing which we are becomging increasingly aware of. Maybe the paranormal things are the symptoms and the time slipping universe is the actual illness.
It's a bit of a mind flip,
When you're into the time slip...

Let's do the time warp again.
 

pandacracker

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If there was definite proof that aliens were real and here (whether from other planets or dimensions) I think I'd shit myself first and then be wildly excited, then shit myself some more.

As to the culture, history, and personalities of these aliens, I'm reminded of something Whitley Schreiber said about the ones he said he'd met. He states that he's seen them confused, angry, distracted etc. True or not, the idea that these "others" are just as flawed and complicated as us is a sobering thought. :worry:
 

dannycheveaux1

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Before my experience in 2010, since I began to read the "Antimatter" section of Omni magazine when I was a kid and checked out the occasional children's nonfiction book on the subject, I thought UFOs likely were real, based on the number of sightings, seeming honesty of many witnesses, etc. But I didn't know much about them at all, really. Then I didn't really pay much attention to the subject for many years. But that day in 2010, once I realized what was happening, was the most amazing, mind-blowing day of my life. I call what I have now "Post-traumatic awe disorder". Then a second awakening when I collected the old articles, and could see my experience as part of a larger program of interaction through history. It was and is haunting to read about similar experiences people have had over time. So I began to post about the subject on forums. Then.. After a few years, the subject hit the news again, just as it had over past decades, and this time it was pretty big. Pretty amazing, indeed.
Have we got a link for your 2010 experience?
 

feinman

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Have we got a link for your 2010 experience?
Yes, here it is:
https://tinyurl.com/y5hsoblv
Also, I am willing to take lie detector tests if others pay for them and make them convenient. I thought about crowdfunding for a while, but I don't have time for all of that. I discovered many others across the decades who had very similar encounters, in those old articles.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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I haven't been smoking anything I promise but a stupid thought just occurred to me (as they are want to do).

What if nearly all paranormal events are just "time slipping" - as in, there could be a fundamental flaw or adverse side effect of the universe which sometimes causes time to overlap and bleed through. How many different supernatural or paranormal experiences/subjects, thought to be subjects in their own right, could be caused by such a flaw:

Deja vu, Clairvoyance
Time slips/Glitches in the matrix/Dimensional slips (obviously)
Bigfoot (seeing early hominids)
UFO's (seeing vehicles from the future)
Ghosts (People from the past or future)


i know I'm clutching at straws but the idea amused me - instead of having a raft of "paranormal" things, what if they were all just demonstrations of one thing which we are becomging increasingly aware of. Maybe the paranormal things are the symptoms and the time slipping universe is the actual illness.
The more I think about it, the more Kenneth Arnold's UFO account seems a remarkably good match for an aircraft like the Grumman B-2.

"flat like a pie pan", "shaped like a pie plate", "half-moon shaped, oval in front and convex in the rear", "something like a pie plate that was cut in half with a sort of a convex triangle in the rear"

PSX_20200213_142919.jpg

Arnold died several years before the B2 was launched, but his Wiki page does state that he admitted that his sighting bore some resemblance to "flying wing" type aircraft. That would still be highly anomalous for a 1947 encounter though!
 

gattino

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Also, I am willing to take lie detector tests if others pay for them and make them convenient. I thought about crowdfunding for a while, but I don't have time for all of that
I'm not sure why you'd need to. I can't imagine anyone doubts or questions that you experienced what you experienced and saw what you saw. The only source of contention from another person might be how you interpret and understand the nature of the thing you saw.

At the risk of contradicting the position ive always taken on these boards (that the person who witnesses a fortean event is in a position of knowledge about its reality, which the non-witness who questions it is not and the latter's disbelief is none of our business), there is valid cause to question some sincerely experienced and convincingly reported experiences....Its not really commented on very often but I do have to remind myself of it occassionally. If a sane seeming, sincere, respectable, level headed and calm person persuasively and honestly recounts seeing Bigfoot or a lake monster or a "spacecraft" we take the report at face value. Though always elusive those things "could" exist and from the witness testimony they do exist. But the difficulty comes when all those same qualities are in the person who genuinely reports seeing a mermaid or a fairy. Their encounter was just as real...or seems to be...but all their sincerity and authenticity counts for little because the thing they saw "couldn't" rationally exist in the world we know. Nothing biological can be half human and half fish. It's crashes against the wall of incredulity. Something other than concrete flesh and blood mechanical reality must have been behind those equally real, genuine encounters. And if that's the case then the slippery nature of cryptids and ufos may be evidence they also happened within this realm of otherness. Which is a real pain.
 

Victory

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I would have questions for the aliens:

Do they believe in G-d?
What planet are they from?
How old is it, and they?
How long do they live?
How many children can they have?
Does that planet have different humanoid species and different races?
Does it have different countries?
Do they have a system of government, and democracy/general elections/parliament?
What languages do they speak?
What methods of travel do they have?
Can they travel through time...indeed, how do they measure time and distance?
What illnesses and cures?
What animals live on their planet?
Are they in touch with other aliens from other planet?
What religions?
What types of food and drink?
What music do they have?
What Arts - literature, paintings, films etc.
What sports do they play?
And their views on us - do they admire anything about earth and humans?
 

dr wu

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Similar to Ringo above, I think it's possible that paranormal and ghost type events are glitches in the fabric of reality.
We know how bizarre reality is especially the Quantum ideas and many physicists over the years have said that reality is more like one big thought than anything truly substantial. Not sure about where Bigfoot and Loch Ness monster fit in....or ufos.
 

dr wu

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At my age I personally would not be scared,,,some concern for my children and grandchildren, but I would like to think any alien race sufficiently advanced to get here would have altruistic motives regarding humans and help us get our act together in some way.
 
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