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Is There A Culture Or Society That Doesn't Believe In Ghosts?

The ones I've seen had vampires and monsters.
 
Xanatic* said:
I seem to recall a post by Yithian about how koreans don't believe in ghosts.
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They talk about them and 'enjoy' them culturally, but I can't find anybody for whom they play more than a fictional rôle in the modern world. They certanly used to 'believe', and there are plenty of Christians around, but modern, urban life seems to have squeezed them out. A number of Koreans even claim to believe in them, but in my experience, it's in the same way as western children believe in Father Christmas: he should exist with all this fuss around him.

So, to delineate, are there ghosts in Korean culture that perform cultural rôles? Yes, definitely. Do Korean people get 'spooked' when alone in the dark? Of course. But do many modern Koreans believe that supernatural phenomena of the ghostly type actually occur and may be indicative of some hitherto unexplained trait of the world? I'm not convinced the answer is yes. As far as I can see, spiritualism does not exist in Korea, and even the shamanistic religions that cling on in dwindling numbers are more interested in 'the spirits of things' (in a teleological sense--as a functional world model as much as a literal description of the actual state of affairs in the world) than in persisting human souls or their traces. I must add that I have relatively slight knowledge here, but it's my impression.

I've heard 'ghost stories', but the way they are told is consciously in the FOAF fashion. There's seldom a verifiable name or date tied to the events related, and when specifics are mentioned, they're usually arbitrary and liable to change in the telling.

UFO sightings are not uncommon--and do feature specifics--so perhaps they're exercising the same muscle via a different means.

Will consult and return with more information.
 
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There have been similar discussions on the board before, perhaps spread across many ghost-related threads.

There is said to be a stark contrast between the richness of British ghost-lore and a relative paucity in France: the French had a revolution, at around the same period as other ancient regimes had fits of the vapours and retreated into Gothic Literature. The notion of ghosts as the products of the fermenting bad consciences of failed or incomplete revolutions has probably been most explored in the context of the "Celtic Twilight."

Language can be a problem: our own "ghost" is derived from the German "Geist," = Spirit but our typical floaty, monkish spectres have tended to monopolise the term, so we need to borrow again to distinguish "Poltergeists!"

Elsewhere we find that "Ghosts" seems to cover all sorts of evil and destructive spirits, which we shunt into the demonic category.

Extending the business to UFOs, as Yithian suggests, reminds me of a map I have seen, which delimits areas of alien sightings and Marian visitations. The fewer visitations from the BVM, the more ETs! Lights in the sky tend to be culturally-determined, where they are most mysterious. :oops:
 
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Yithian said:
They talk about them and 'enjoy' them culturally, but I can't find anybody for whom they play more than a fictional rôle in the modern world. They certanly used to 'believe', and there are plenty of Christians around, but modern, urban life seems to have squeezed them out. A number of Koreans even claim to believe in them, but in my experience, it's in the same way as western children believe in Father Christmas: he should exist with all this fuss around him.

So, to delineate, are there ghosts in Korean culture that perform cultural rôles? Yes, definitely. Do Korean people get 'spooked' when alone in the dark? Of course. But do many modern Koreans believe that supernatural phenomena of the ghostly type actually occur and may be indicative of some hitherto unexplained trait of the world? I'm not convinced the answer is yes. As far as I can see, spiritualism does not exist in Korea, and even the shamanistic religions that cling on in dwindling numbers are more interested in 'the spirits of things' (in a teleological sense--as a functional world model as much as a literal description of the actual state of affairs in the world) than in persisting human souls or their traces. I must add that I have relatively slight knowledge here, but it's my impression.

I've heard 'ghost stories', but the way they are told is consciously in the FOAF fashion. There's seldom a verifiable name or date tied to the events related, and when specifics are mentioned, they're usually arbitrary and liable to change in the telling.

UFO sightings are not uncommon--and do feature specifics--so perhaps they're exercising the same muscle via a different means.

Will consult and return with more information.
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Is there a Korean Most Haunted or anything similar?
 
Yithian said:
I don't watch television.
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You're missing out, it's the wonder of the modern age.


telly_03.jpg
 
Yithian said:
Will consult and return with more information.
Click to expand...

Mrs Yith confesses to know very little about ghosts but mentions that mudang (shamans, who also tell fortunes) often speak of being able to see ghosts that the mass of non-gifted people cannot. These are sometimes ghosts (in the Western sense) and sometimes the spirits of one's ancestors, who might be concerned with this or that aspect of their family's current conduct, and who might be adversely affecting the subject's mood, thought and fortune. In many cases, the remedy is a mental resolution to improve and a ceremony to propitiate said ancestor (these are standard under traditional Confucian practice anyway, quite apart from any belief in Shamanism, but the Shamanistic ones are conducted differently).

While not really comparable with the kind of hauntings we hear about so often in this place, this does neatly allign with the common conception of ghosts as being conservative forces that seek to re-establish the status-quo.

There are 'ghost-hunting' groups, apparently, but there's no pretence of 'science', and from all my wife has seen, it's mostly thrill-seeking teens and twenty-somethings copying rubbish they've seen Brits and Yanks doing on YouTube; the few times cases have emerged from this niche, they've turned out to be faked for clicks. Unsurprisingly.

Koreans can be a superstitious race, and many superstitiously observe (sometimes surprisingly trivial) traditional practices out of an abundance of caution rather than pure belief, but, as I've said before, my unscientific survey of young people indicates that for all the emphasis placed on learning about ceremony and tradition during childhood, the specific and detailed rituals and the beliefs behind them are quickly going the way of the Church of England. It's not just that people choose not to do them; it's that they don't know them any longer. This might come as news to a tourist, who might conclude that relative to his own country Korea is a nation almost defined by its adherence to codified and recorded tradition (not just 'being old fashioned'), but what I see--and I could be wrong--is that the universally observed 'main events' are being inflated while the minor festivals, practices and activities are leaving the stage--much like the inflation of Christmas over Easter, and the retreat of religious discourse from the whole of society to the church itself in England.

Sorry if this has over-spilled the bounds of the thread topic.
 
I did read about an African culture that only believed in ghosts of the living, but not of the dead. Living people could project spirits abroad, but dead people could not (because they are dead). I think they may have been San people.

But I can't find the reference now. If I find anything I'll post it.
 
Yithian said:
Mrs Yith confesses to know very little about ghosts but mentions that mudang (shamans, who also tell fortunes) often speak of being able to see ghosts that the mass of non-gifted people cannot. These are sometimes ghosts (in the Western sense) and sometimes the spirits of one's ancestors, who might be concerned with this or that aspect of their family's current conduct, and who might be adversely affecting the subject's mood, thought and fortune. In many cases, the remedy is a mental resolution to improve and a ceremony to propitiate said ancestor (these are standard under traditional Confucian practice anyway, quite apart from any belief in Shamanism, but the Shamanistic ones are conducted differently).

While not really comparable with the kind of hauntings we hear about so often in this place, this does neatly allign with the common conception of ghosts as being conservative forces that seek to re-establish the status-quo.

There are 'ghost-hunting' groups, apparently, but there's no pretence of 'science', and from all my wife has seen, it's mostly thrill-seeking teens and twenty-somethings copying rubbish they've seen Brits and Yanks doing on YouTube; the few times cases have emerged from this niche, they've turned out to be faked for clicks. Unsurprisingly.

Koreans can be a superstitious race, and many superstitiously observe (sometimes surprisingly trivial) traditional practices out of an abundance of caution rather than pure belief, but, as I've said before, my unscientific survey of young people indicates that for all the emphasis placed on learning about ceremony and tradition during childhood, the specific and detailed rituals and the beliefs behind them are quickly going the way of the Church of England. It's not just that people choose not to do them; it's that they don't know them any longer. This might come as news to a tourist, who might conclude that relative to his own country Korea is a nation almost defined by its adherence to codified and recorded tradition (not just 'being old fashioned'), but what I see--and I could be wrong--is that the universally observed 'main events' are being inflated while the minor festivals, practices and activities are leaving the stage--much like the inflation of Christmas over Easter, and the retreat of religious discourse from the whole of society to the church itself in England.

Sorry if this has over-spilled the bounds of the thread topic.
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I'm going to return to this because I recently opened the first pages of a book to find the preface perfectly explains the 'setup' that I much less elegantly sketched in the post above. The publication, which I probably ought not mention is most freely available online, is the best English language treatment of the topic. The author mentions the stress placed on specialisation and faith in expertise, which I would judge to be a thread that runs deeply through Korean culture to this day.

Screenshot 2021-06-19 at 1.00.31 AM.jpgScreenshot 2021-06-19 at 12.59.22 AM.pngScreenshot 2021-06-19 at 12.59.33 AM.png
 
eburacum said:
I did read about an African culture that only believed in ghosts of the living, but not of the dead. Living people could project spirits abroad, but dead people could not (because they are dead). I think they may have been San people.

But I can't find the reference now. If I find anything I'll post it.
Click to expand...
did you have any luck @eburacum?
 
eburacum said:
I did read about an African culture that only believed in ghosts of the living, but not of the dead. Living people could project spirits abroad, but dead people could not (because they are dead). I think they may have been San people.

But I can't find the reference now. If I find anything I'll post it.
Click to expand...
I'm not confident it's the San people / culture, unless you're referring to one of the more specific groups subsumed under tha "San" label.

The label "San" subsumes multiple groups, not all of whom are known to share the same exact beliefs. For example:
The religions of two San groups, the !Kung and the |Gui, seem to be similar, in that both groups believe in two supernatural beings, one of which is the creator of the world and of living things whereas the other has lesser powers but is partly an agent of sickness and death. The !Kung and the |Gui also believe in spirits of the dead but do not practice ancestor worship as do many Bantu-speakers.
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SOURCE: https://www.britannica.com/topic/San

Having said that ... The San people(s) are most generally / globally described as fearing the spirits of the dead.
The San believe in a divinity that is nothing but the invisible representation of nature and all that surrounds them; a good and benevolent god, Kang, who is opposed to the evil god Gauab.

They also believe in other supernatural beings and the spirits of the dead, of whom they are very afraid; the Bushmen bury their dead in a fetal position with their knees gathered on their chests together with all the objects belonging to them in life, then they highlight the place by covering the tomb with stones.

After the burial, the group abandons the place where the tomb is located and moves elsewhere, because the Bushmen fear the spirits of the dead.
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SOURCE: https://www.exploring-africa.com/en/botswana/san-or-bushmen/san-people
 
EnolaGaia said:
I'm not confident it's the San people / culture, unless you're referring to one of the more specific groups subsumed under tha "San" label.

The label "San" subsumes multiple groups, not all of whom are known to share the same exact beliefs. For example:

SOURCE: https://www.britannica.com/topic/San

Having said that ... The San people(s) are most generally / globally described as fearing the spirits of the dead.

SOURCE: https://www.exploring-africa.com/en/botswana/san-or-bushmen/san-people
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Moving elsewhere after you bury a member of your group seems like a good way to run out of places to live.
 
JamesWhitehead said:
There have been similar discussions on the board before, perhaps spread across many ghost-related threads.

There is said to be a stark contrast between the richness of British ghost-lore and a relative paucity in France: the French had a revolution, at around the same period as other ancient regimes had fits of the vapours and retreated into Gothic Literature. The notion of ghosts as the products of the fermenting bad consciences of failed or incomplete revolutions has probably been most explored in the context of the "Celtic Twilight."

Language can be a problem: our own "ghost" is derived from the German "Geist," = Spirit but our typical floaty, monkish spectres have tended to monopolise the term, so we need to borrow again to distinguish "Poltergeists!"

Elsewhere we find that "Ghosts" seems to cover all sorts of evil and destructive spirits, which we shunt into the demonic category.

Extending the business to UFOs, as Yithian suggests, reminds me of a map I have seen, which delimits areas of alien sightings and Marian visitations. The fewer visitations from the BVM, the more ETs! Lights in the sky tend to be culturally-determined, where they are most mysterious. :oops:
Click to expand...
Well put and a neat summary. I think I was involved in a thread on this….

https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/ghosts-of-opposing-cultures.2043/#post-1043221

As I say there, a conversation started with a french colleague who found the British preoccupation with ghosts quite bizarre. When I asked about all the French ghosts, he dismissed me with the phrase ‘Oh, we did away with all that nonsense in the Revolution‘. Further brief research on my part showed a residual spooky belief in the more northern celtic regions but mostly there was more of a belief in sightings of the BVM.
Immortal Counts….er….. do not count.
 
In many muslim societies they only believe in Jinns, which are some kind of demons. So when you see ghost hunting videos from Arabic countries it's usually only about finding Jinns.
 
Vardoger said:
In many muslim societies they only believe in Jinns, which are some kind of demons. So when you see ghost hunting videos from Arabic countries it's usually only about finding Jinns.
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An off-licence is a great place to find those.
 
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