Jesus The Communist

[ramonmercado]

Can't find anywhere to put this, but mods please move it if you find a better berth.

Jesus the communist
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/797/jesus.php
Laurie McCauley reports on a meeting attended by Christians and communists

On December 8, Jack Conrad of the CPGB spoke on ?Jesus: prophet, son of god, or revolutionary?? at the School of Oriental and African Studies, addressing a meeting organised by Communist Students. It was attended by around 25 people from a wide variety of backgrounds.

Comrade Conrad argued that in all probability Jesus was a real historical figure, and could well have presented himself and his prophetic mission in terms of being the ?son of David?: ie, of the legitimate royal line of ancient Israel. That is what two gospels of the Bible detail.

A convincing account of Jesus and his mission can be constructed. Jesus would have urged the non-payment of taxes to the Romans and class retribution. Not compliance and turning the other cheek. Comrade Conrad referenced Jesus?s repeated attacks on the rich and his championing of the poor. The rich were told to give away their wealth or face everlasting damnation. In god?s kingdom Jesus envisaged a type of communism, a monarchical communism - ?not of production, but consumption?.

Israel in the 1st century was riven with profound class contradictions and subversive anti-Roman leaders, guerrilla groups and salvationary parties had the active support of the masses. Given the times, all demands for national freedom and class retribution were cloaked in religious terms, references and doctrines. Jesus was part of the popular revolutionary movement against Roman rule which culminated in the great Jewish revolt from 66-70.

Jesus himself banked on god?s intervention and 12 legions of angels to deliver Israel from the Roman yoke. He clearly failed. Executed by the Roman authorities - there would have been no baying Jewish mob demanding his crucifixion - what is remarkable about Jesus is that his followers were able to convince themselves that he lived on and was just about to return.

The ability of the Roman empire to turn Jesus into his opposite should not surprise us. Ruling classes, especially in conditions of decline, often compromise or buy off opposition movements and make them their own. Christianity became the official religion of the empire under Constantine and he took a leading role in fashioning a theology which preached meek acceptance of exploitation and state power.

In the discussion afterwards, several Christians disputed parts of what comrade Conrad had said. One stated that there was often an ?arrogant? attitude on the left towards those of a religious bent. Tina Becker of the CPGB argued that Marxists would be foolish to adopt an attitude like that of atheist Richard Dawkins. He could truly be described as arrogant and actually failed to understand why religion is still such a powerful force in society. We must have a more nuanced analysis than ?it?s all rubbish?, and be ready to engage with the many people who hold religious beliefs.

The talk on Jesus was filmed and will be available to watch on the CS website soon.

 

[ramonmercado]

Another view on that meeting.

Paradise
I enjoyed comrade Laurie McCauley?s report on Jack Conrad?s presentation to a London student meeting, and I would like to share further impressions from the same controversial evening (?Jesus the communist?, December 10).

I was unsure how the meeting would unfold, as the deep division between Christians and Marxists suggested that the discussion was likely to be fundamentally split. Perhaps contrary to the expectations of most communists in the room, the Christians who attended were very eloquent and perfectly capable of carrying an argument without getting irrationally defensive or overly emotional. They knew their way around biblical history very well, were familiar with the most common arguments put forward by atheists and knew how to respond in a rational manner when, for instance, biblical inconsistencies were pointed out.

However, it was almost a bit saddening to hear the same people making the insane claim that ?every single word in the Bible is true?. No doubt these were bright and passionate individuals, and I could not help but feel that it was a terrible waste to dedicate their enthusiasm to superstition and folklore when they could use it to make a difference in the real world.

One of our Christian guests made an impressive and unexpected move when she attempted to discredit atheism by employing identity politics. According to her, our presumed arrogance towards believers betrayed a typically European sense of superiority over the belief systems of the naive, uncivilised tribes from the developing countries, which would eventually come around to our enlightened ways. Apparently, we also neglected the fact that religious people have been massively involved in anti-imperialist struggles, the civil rights movement, and so on.

Comrade Tina Becker made a timely response when she pointed out that our approach differed, or should differ, from the patronising attitude of Richard Dawkins. Correspondingly, Conrad aligned himself with the central Christian ethic of loving one?s neighbour. This was all good and well; however, I think that in the midst of these assurances one important aspect got lost and remained undiscussed: the by and large reactionary role that organised Christianity has been playing in modern history, its unerring alliances with the political right, and the hostile and divisive attitudes towards various groups within the working class that it regularly displays.

This leads us to consider the question: is organised Christianity, through its nature, in league with the forces of reaction and consequently inherently intolerant to us as Marxists? As Conrad noted in his presentation, the Romans turned Christian philosophy into its opposite when they declared it to be their official state religion. In this respect, it might have been interesting to explore how the Old Testament and New Testament present us with two entirely different gods: one jealous, vengeful and fearsome; the other forgiving, caring and loving. In the New Testament, the Jesus character even goes as far as to render the Old Testament redundant, replacing the 10 commandments with only two, one of them being the famous ?Love your neighbour as yourself?. Despite nominally adopting the Christian narrative, one may well claim that the Roman Catholic church, as well as all major Christian churches in its wake, felt it more suitable for their purposes to revive the vengeful god of the Old Testament.

Can you be a faithful Christian who believes that every word in the Bible is true, whilst personally maintaining communist politics? Is atheist propaganda a necessary component of our struggle? Unlike a comrade I spoke to over a drink after the event, I don?t believe it is a good idea to liken our vision of a future society to a ?paradise on earth? in order to appeal to the Christian mindset. Our society will be a superior, truly democratic and classless society that will ensure a dignified existence for every human being. But because we are human rather than divine, a communist society will confront us with a new set of problems that need to be resolved.

As the CPGB maintain in their ?What we fight for? statement, communism is not the end of human history, as ?paradise? is in the Christian narrative, but its true beginning. There was no time to discuss these and other questions, but I?m looking forward to the prospect of exploring them in a follow-up session.

Zuri Zurowski
email
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/798/letters.php

 

[ramonmercado]

Heres another piece which is relevant. Full text at link.

Origins of religion and the human revolution
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/798/originsofreligion.php

Jack Conrad gives his assessment of some of the main theories and asks what apes can teach us

Human beings have been the product of essentially the same genetic toolkit since the first pre-modern Homo sapiens emerged in Africa around 500,000 years ago. Our own sub-species, modern Homo sapiens, also arose in Africa - some 200,000 years ago. In all likelihood our ability to acquire and transmit abstract ideas, including religious ideas, results from the rapid growth of brain size, not least in the frontal cortex, which is associated with pre-modern Homo sapiens, and which makes us capable of symbolic thought, furious creativity and ?extraordinary? feats of deception.1

Some geneticists go further. Much further. They claim to have located religious belief in our genes and the biological mechanisms of heredity. Dean Hamer, director of the gene structure and regulation unit of the US National Cancer Institute, stunningly revealed in his book, The god gene (2004), how he had finally cracked the age-old enigma of religion. At least that is what his canny publicity machine declared.

Vesicular Monoamine Transporter 2 (VMAT2) was confidently named the ?god gene? ... for pretty tenuous reasons. The VMAT2 protein is responsible for transmitting dopamines from one part of the brain to another and this induces feelings of pleasure, happiness and general harmony with the cosmos. Dopamines are released during trances and other such ecstatic religious experiences (and by psychotropic and hallucinogenic drugs).

There are two versions of VMAT2 and they ?differ only in a single position?.2 People with one version apparently tend to score a little higher when it comes to what Hamer calls ?self-transcendence

 

[ramonmercado]

Another article by Jack Conrad.

Neither meek nor mild
Jesus was a rabbi, a communist and a brave revolutionary, argues Jack Conrad

The spoils of war: Roman depiction of the sack of Jerusalem

With the coming of the Romans, in the 1st century BCE, there was a widespread feeling amongst the common people of Palestine that the last times had arrived. Yahweh was about to destroy all earthly powers and institute his divine rule on Earth. Naturally, god will rescue his chosen people and bring terrible retribution against foreign oppressors and their quislings.

A range of religious/political factions existed. The contemporary writer, Josephus (aka Joseph ben Matityahu), lists what he calls the three schools of thought: sadducees, pharisees and essenes. The sadducees must be distinguished from the Herodian royal family and the internationalised Jewish aristocracy - who proudly adopted Greek customs and served as client-state agents of Roman exploitation. Sadducee is virtually synonymous with the caste of temple high priests and those who were related to them. According to Josephus, 1,500 priests received tithes and religiously served the community. However, a rapid class differentiation took place. Half a dozen families elevated themselves above the common priesthood and secured a tight grip over key appointments. Disdainful of their social ‘inferiors’, the high priests had no compunction about stealing the tithes allocated to other, less grand, priests. Occasionally violence erupted. It was, though, mostly an uneven contest. High priests had temple guards, many servants and other such dependants and hangers-on. They could also afford to hire baying mobs and gangs of heavies. ...

http://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/1039/neither-meek-nor-mild/

 

[Schwadevivre]

This assumes that a founding Jesus figure existed in the first place. The mythic Jesus position has a lot going for it, not least the incoherence of the Biblical accounts of his life, ministry and theology.

 

[ramonmercado]

This assumes that a founding Jesus figure existed in the first place. The mythic Jesus position has a lot going for it, not least the incoherence of the Biblical accounts of his life, ministry and theology.

Conrad does not suggest that Jesus was one person, rather an amalgam of sources .

He goes into it in a lot more detail in his book Fantastic Reality

http://www.lulu.com/ie/en/shop/jack-conrad/fantastic-reality/paperback/product-21432440.html

https://books.google.ie/books?id=Eh...wBw#v=onepage&q=jack conrad Fantastic&f=false

 

[Schwadevivre]

The difficulty Conrad has, even with that position, is that a multi-sourced Jesus increasingly detaches Jesus from any biographical information and the only biographies we have are very tainted. Remember there is no other biographical information except the gospels for the 1st 100 years of the faith despite their being a wealth of excellent sources for that period.

While may be true that early Christian cults held goods in common, other mystery cults seemed to have done the same. It may also be true that some cults and groups were "revolutionary" in the broadest sense it in no way renders Christianity after the Constantinian adoption to be more than an arm of the state and, later still, the repressive state itself.

 

[ramonmercado]

The difficulty Conrad has, even with that position, is that a multi-sourced Jesus increasingly detaches Jesus from any biographical information and the only biographies we have are very tainted. Remember there is no other biographical information except the gospels for the 1st 100 years of the faith despite their being a wealth of excellent sources for that period.

While may be true that early Christian cults held goods in common, other mystery cults seemed to have done the same. It may also be true that some cults and groups were "revolutionary" in the broadest sense it in no way renders Christianity after the Constantinian adoption to be more than an arm of the state and, later still, the repressive state itself.

Oh, I agree with you.

In general I think Jack is too soft on religion.

If I Can't Shoot Priests I Don't Want To Be Part Of Your Revolution!

 

[Schwadevivre]

Well there is the line by Meslier, adapted by Diderot and misquoted as

I would like the last of the kings to be strangled by the guts of the last priest

 

[TheShrikeOoO]

I'm not familiar with Conrad, but it's not uncommon for Christians to also embrace communist views.

might be worth looking at "Liberation Theology"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

 

[ramonmercado]

I'm not familiar with Conrad, but it's not uncommon for Christians to also embrace communist views.

might be worth looking at "Liberation Theology"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

I don't want to shoot all priests, just the bad ones.

 

[Mungoman]

"Comrade Conrad argued that in all probability Jesus was a real historical figure, and could well have presented himself and his prophetic mission in terms of being the ?son of David?: ie, of the legitimate royal line of ancient Israel. That is what two gospels of the Bible detail."

Bloody Middle class revolutionaries, will they never stop!

A convincing account of Jesus and his mission can be constructed. Jesus would have urged the non-payment of taxes to the Romans and class retribution.

'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, and render unto God, that which is Gods?'

All joking aside, I would love to think that there was a man, who was listened to, who considered women as being the equal of men, who believed that children were precious, who would give you his jacket if you needed a shirt and who believed that loving your fellow man and woman, as well as loving yourself, was a pretty good target to aim for in life...

 

[ramonmercado]

"Comrade Conrad argued that in all probability Jesus was a real historical figure, and could well have presented himself and his prophetic mission in terms of being the ?son of David?: ie, of the legitimate royal line of ancient Israel. That is what two gospels of the Bible detail."

Bloody Middle class revolutionaries, will they never stop!

A convincing account of Jesus and his mission can be constructed. Jesus would have urged the non-payment of taxes to the Romans and class retribution.

'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, and render unto God, that which is Gods?'

All joking aside, I would love to think that there was a man, who was listened to, who considered women as being the equal of men, who believed that children were precious, who would give you his jacket if you needed a shirt and who believed that loving your fellow man and woman, as well as loving yourself, was a pretty good target to aim for in life...

Actually Jack Conrad comes from a working class background.

Remember Jesus was being asked trick questions in an attempt to entrap him when he gave the render answer. (Thats if it happened.)

 

[Mungoman]

Ramonmercad - I was referring to jesus being the middle class revolutionary, tribe of David an'all...never see working class revolutionaries for some reason....too busy working, I suppose.

Yes it was a trick question, once again, the rabbi trying to trap The Rabbi. I think Jesus would have been seen as a Socialist, rather than a communist, and he knew you don't get owt for nowt.

 

[ramonmercado]

Ramonmercad - I was referring to jesus being the middle class revolutionary, tribe of David an'all...never see working class revolutionaries for some reason....too busy working, I suppose.

Yes it was a trick question, once again, the rabbi trying to trap The Rabbi. I think Jesus would have been seen as a Socialist, rather than a communist, and he knew you don't get owt for nowt.

ah no, Jesus was the Royal Revolutionary. Just in a branch of the family in reduced circumstances.

 

[Cochise]

All joking aside, I would love to think that there was a man, who was listened to, who considered women as being the equal of men, who believed that children were precious, who would give you his jacket if you needed a shirt and who believed that loving your fellow man and woman, as well as loving yourself, was a pretty good target to aim for in life...

And yet look at what some of the people who believe in him (not merely as a man, but as God) do?

As to the assertion that he was a Communist, I would have said that was a fundamental misunderstanding as well as a serious anachronism. Communism is far more interested in property and its control than Jesus was.

 

[Mungoman]

G'day Cochise, there are some people who drop all responsibility for their own actions when they profess to believing in some sort of 'belief'.

 

[ramonmercado]

G'day Cochise, there are some people who drop all responsibility for their own actions when they profess to believing in some sort of 'belief'.

And that includes Communism. But there is not an inevitable straight line between Karl Marx and Stalin.

Jack Conrad would say that things started to go wrong after March 1918 when the First Soviet Coalition Government collapsed over the terms of the Brest-Livstok Treaty. Many do not know that it was a Coalition: Bolsheviks, Left Socialist-Revolutionaries with support from Anarchists outside of the Cabinet. Power was seized in October 1917 in response to an immediate threat of Military Dictatorship from a coup by General Kornilov.

The meddling by British Intelligence after the fall of the Coalition government didn't help. They provoked two loons into assassinating the German Ambassador and into trying to kill Lenin. Bruce Lockhart and fellow British agent, Sidney Reilly generally acted as menaces only strengthening the position of the Bolsheviks. Some of you may remember the TV series Reilly: Ace Of Spies, based on the book by Lockharts son, Robin. Bruce Lockhart published his book, Memoirs Of A British Agent in 1932 and its still in print. It was made into a film; British Agent in 1932.

The White Military committed perhaps the first pogroms on an industrial scale. Daniel Pipes in Conspiracy suggested 100,000 Jews were killed in pogroms by the White forces. More up to date research in The World on Fire: 1919 and the Battle with Bolshevism says 150,000 Jews perished in the White Holocaust.

Winston Churchill warned General Denikin, whose forces carried out pogroms that:

"my task in winning support in Parliament for the Russian Nationalist cause will be infinitely harder if well-authenticated complaints continue to be received from Jews in the zone of the Volunteer Armies."

Might the the Coalition have gotten together again in 1918 if Lockhart and Reilly hadn't gotten up to their tricks? Who knows.

But factions of the Mensheviks continued to support the gains of the 1917 Revolution whilst opposing the Bolsheviks. (Martov at the USPD Conference 1920.)

 

[Schwadevivre]

Given that I've been reading a lot of Richard Carrier and Bart Ehrman may I have leave to doubt in the existence of the Jesus of the Gospels?

 

[ramonmercado]

Given that I've been reading a lot of Richard Carrier and Bart Ehrman may I have leave to doubt in the existence of the Jesus of the Gospels?

Yeah, I mean who would curse a fig tree? Granpa Simpson?

 

[ramonmercado]

After the death of Jesus
According to western Christian mythology, Jesus died on Good Friday and came back to life three days later on what we now call Easter Monday. But, argues Jack Conrad, Jesus and his first followers were not Christians, but Jewish revolutionaries. It was Paul who invented Christianity

The Romans’ execution of Jesus surely came as a stunning shock. His followers must have been mortified. Nevertheless, the Jesus party survives the death of its founder-leader. Indeed it grows rapidly. The ‘Acts of the apostles’ report a big increase from 120 cadre to several thousand in the immediate aftermath of his crucifixion.

The recruits were, of course, fellow Jews - including perhaps a few essenes, baptists and guerrilla fighters. People undoubtedly inspired by Jesus’s attempted apocalyptic coup and the subsequent story that his body had disappeared and like Elijah had risen to heaven (the Romans blamed his disciples, saying they had secretly removed the corpse from its tomb - a slightly more likely scenario). All fervently expected imminent deliverance through the return of Jesus: “the time is fulfilled and the kingdom of god is at hand”.1 Obviously the social atmosphere was feverish. People must have been desperate - after all, they were investing their hopes in a dead leader and the imminent armed intervention of god’s legions of angels. ...

http://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/1052/after-the-death-of-jesus/

 

[Analogue Boy]

The Romans’ execution of Jesus surely came as a stunning shock. His followers must have been mortified. Nevertheless, the Jesus party survives the death of its founder-leader. Indeed it grows rapidly. The ‘Acts of the apostles’ report a big increase from 120 cadre to several thousand in the immediate aftermath of his crucifixion.

Yet they forgot to make note of the date.

 

[Tanglebones]

Communist? Nah, surely Judas was the real revolutionary in the whole affair?

 

[rynner2]

After the death of Jesus
According to western Christian mythology, Jesus died on Good Friday and came back to life three days later on what we now call Easter Monday.

That must be news for most Christian churches, who celebrate the resurrection today!!

But I have been pointing out for years now that 3 days after Friday is NOT Sunday! That's not how we count.

 

[David Plankton]

I thought crucifixions took ages. Maybe he was on there a few days and expired very early on Friday morning, to be resurrected late Sunday evening. I would count that as three days.

 

[rynner2]

I thought crucifixions took ages. Maybe he was on there a few days and expired very early on Friday morning, to be resurrected late Sunday evening. I would count that as three days.

Off the top of my head, he died in the afternoon, and the empty tomb was discovered early Sunday morning. (No doubt any Bible-bashers can give us chapter and verse on that!)

 

[David Plankton]

Maybe his followers moved his body on the Sunday because they knew next day was a Bank Holiday.

 

[Schwadevivre]

If you want to be annoying you can ask why John says that the Last Supper was on the day before the start of Passover, whilst Matthew, Mark and Luke say it was a Passover supper. Then you can begin on how many were present at the time the tomb was found to be opened and who was inside the tomb.

It's almost as much fun as asking about Matthew's zombie invasion of Jerusalem ...

 

[Mythopoeika]

Communist? Nah, surely Judas was the real revolutionary in the whole affair?

Judas was a capitalist. He saw a business opportunity and exploited it.

 

[ramonmercado]

If you want to be annoying you can ask why John says that the Last Supper was on the day before the start of Passover, whilst Matthew, Mark and Luke say it was a Passover supper. Then you can begin on how many were present at the time the tomb was found to be opened and who was inside the tomb.

It's almost as much fun as asking about Matthew's zombie invasion of Jerusalem ...

So many different versions of what happened. Written at different times. With additional text inserted by copyists.

A lot of the misogyny in Paul's writings looks as if it was added later.