Kabbalah: Why Would Quantum Physicists Look Into It?

avakana

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Hello fellow searchers,

After Watching 'What the Bleep do we know' and reading "Taking the Quantum Leap" by Fred Allan Wolfe PhD , I was fascinated by the interest of a Quantum Physicist in Kabbalah.

Unlike many 'religions' which create division, Kabbalah is not a religion but offers a path, that if you so choose to look into it, can expand your thinking beyond the very literal ' Man in a grey beard' as God.
Kabbalah teaches you the codes incorporated into the traditional Bible... it is very liberating, though challenging... but opens an outlook on holographic worlds, reincarnation, time, masculine/ feminine, the big bang... but most importantly the need to see all our fellow human beings as one integrated entity which highlights the importance of sharing this planet....

Love for Humanity

Ava
 

rynner2

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Didn't see anything about quantum physics in that post

- could it be SPAM...! :shock:
 

KarlD

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rynner2 said:
Didn't see anything about quantum physics in that post

- could it be SPAM...! :shock:
I am shocked.At least its not that idiot who wibbles on about pi.
 

Mythopoeika

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I think I have to agree with Rynner. It's spam.
 

Timble2

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I thought to study the kabbalah you had to be a scholar over 40 years old, and pretty advanced in your theological studies.

This is the usual mystical arse gravy from people who think by banging together quantum mechanics, which they don't understand, the kabbalah, which they don't understand, and the idea of the holographic universe, which is methaphor not a theory, which they don't understand, they've achieved some sort of insight... :roll:
 

segovius

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How can Kabbalah be based on 'codes in the Bible'?

It is well known to be a 12th century Jewish modification of an existing Islamic formulation and neither of these frameworks drew very heavily on the Bible if at all.

And this is definitely spam. In fact, prostletysing spam which is the lamest and most despicable sort.
 

KarlD

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segovius said:
How can Kabbalah be based on 'codes in the Bible'?

It is well known to be a 12th century Jewish modification of an existing Islamic formulation and neither of these frameworks drew very heavily on the Bible if at all.

And this is definitely spam. In fact, prostletysing spam which is the lamest and most despicable sort.
Is the kabbalah based on a deep philosopical understanding of spiced ham?
Were the Monty python team actualy trying to waken a deep understanding of kabbah when they sang about spam ?
 

rynner2

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KarlD said:
Is the kabbalah based on a deep philosopical understanding of spiced ham?
Were the Monty python team actualy trying to waken a deep understanding of kabbah when they sang about spam ?
My huge international team of researchers are currently delving into the implications deriving from the fact that you omitted the syllable "al" from kabbalah...

Preliminary analysis indicates that the end of the world is nigh.... :shock:


...But we could be wrong! :D
 

KarlD

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rynner2 said:
KarlD said:
Is the kabbalah based on a deep philosopical understanding of spiced ham?
Were the Monty python team actualy trying to waken a deep understanding of kabbah when they sang about spam ?
My huge international team of researchers are currently delving into the implications deriving from the fact that you omitted the syllable "al" from kabbalah...

Preliminary analysis indicates that the end of the world is nigh.... :shock:


...But we could be wrong! :D
Oh noes, my mom always told me I would be the end of the world, and she was right. :(
 

Felicity

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Am I wrong or is the heading of this forum not Religion and Cults, but
Skeptics out for Blood

Ava's message showed a genuine enthusiasm for a new direction, this is infinitely more refreshing than a dried up, tired, we own this site and we are your masters response I find here.

Why is this statement from Ava the ignition point for the Hounds of Nastyville to attack? Could it be she appeared vulnerable and an easy target?
If it had been under science there could be some excuse... but it was legitimately under Religions and Cults.

It may have presented an opportunity to give an informed critique rather than one up-manship cynical responses.... one always, I have been taught, resorts to name calling when one can not give an informed response.

So here is my response: Timble: Kabbalah was only open originally to men over 45 who were married (something about lack of maturity)- they needed that base on which to operate-in contemporary times women are allowed to study Kabbalah, eg Madonna.

The holographic concept, which struck me as a genuine insight, could be given some direction, perhaps towards Karl Pribham's Changing Reality (Stanford neuroscientist). The holographic concept at a physiological level, is not beyond the realms of probability, certainly, the butterfly effect backs up at an ethical level the idea of considering Humanity as interconnected... just look at the Economic collapse.

Segovius and Karl D... perhaps you could learn something from T.H. Huxley when he wrote, "Sit down before fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing."

As to the essential message of Love for Humanity- this offers a more sustainable outcome than technology's principal source of scientific and innovational research- the destruction of humanity with war based economies, short term corporate profit and intellectual property ownership driven research into pharmaceuticals and agriculture.
.
 

Felicity

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As another footnote, after doing a bit of research- there is a Quantum Physicist, popularised in "What the Bleep do we know", Dr Fred Alan Wolfe PhD, who has an interest in Kabbalah, plus in another field, now of interest to the military, psycho-energetics, William A Tiller, also has an interest... this is probably what Ava was referring to, given many ordinary, run of the mill people enjoyed this film.

Perhaps, had she been given some sort of encouragement to correct an obvious oversight, given the title, Ava may still feel confident enough to bring her thoughts to this Forum.

Felicity :cry:
 

stu neville

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Felicity said:
Am I wrong or is the heading of this forum not Religion and Cults, but Skeptics out for Blood?
No - but sceptics making legitimate points is part of the overall geist.

Felicity said:
Ava's message showed a genuine enthusiasm for a new direction, this is infinitely more refreshing than a dried up, tired, we own this site and we are your masters response I find here.
And genuine enthusiasm is in the main a good thing, but not at the expense of objective critical faculties. As for the "we are your masters" thing, no-one said anything of the sort. Highlighting possible spam is a venerable tradition on here (spam's verboten), and as for the rest, they were in the main reasonable points. You have to realise in the last seven or eight years we've had all kinds of stuff brought up on here, much of it fascinating, some of it less so, and some of it utterly bonkers. We give it as fair a hearing as we can, but when it makes elementary mistakes or totally inconsistent or even outright contradictory messages we have to enquire why. That's the point of this place. Not to dismiss outright, but to test proposals to see if they bear deeper investigation.
Felicity said:
Why is this statement from Ava the ignition point for the Hounds of Nastyville to attack? Could it be she appeared vulnerable and an easy target? If it had been under science there could be some excuse... but it was legitimately under Religions and Cults....

....Perhaps, had she been given some sort of encouragement to correct an obvious oversight, given the title, Ava may still feel confident enough to bring her thoughts to this Forum.
Ask her - she's got the same IP as you for every one of her posts (and she mentions that you're chums in at least three posts, this one for example, though she does say in that one that she stayed with you, in the past tense - so that's either quite a wireless connection you've got or she's hiding in your loft.)
 

KarlD

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Felicity said:
As another footnote, after doing a bit of research- there is a Quantum Physicist, popularised in "What the Bleep do we know", Dr Fred Alan Wolfe PhD, who has an interest in Kabbalah, plus in another field, now of interest to the military, psycho-energetics, William A Tiller, also has an interest... this is probably what Ava was referring to, given many ordinary, run of the mill people enjoyed this film.

Perhaps, had she been given some sort of encouragement to correct an obvious oversight, given the title, Ava may still feel confident enough to bring her thoughts to this Forum.

Felicity :cry:
Well I think for me the reason it seemed like spam was it read like 'oh wow not only brianless hollywood stars but people who some people might concider intelligent are interested in Kabbalah' sorry but it just read that way and because there are many interpretations of what quantum physics says about everyday reality you can use it with a bit og handwaving to explain anything.
The reality is that quantum physiscs has no measurable effect on anything on the macro scale at which humans operate.
 

segovius

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I am still not sure it is not Spam.

The tone seems a little 'preachey' and implies the aim of the post is to forward an agenda rather than foster a discussion.

It's a thin line though I guess...we all have our hobby-horses and ingrained positions, I guess we'll see whether a discussion develops.

I'd be interested in defining what was intended by 'Kaballah' though if the OP can clarify. There are many versions and corruptions:

1) Current Hollywood "abundance" celeb fad
2) Usual New Age nonsense which is slightly different from above
3) Magickal Kaballah as in Crowley/Mathers
4) Traditional Jewish post 14th Century
5) Christianized 'Cabala" post 15/16th century
6) Original Spanish Islamic/Jewish synthesis 12//13th century
7) Identical doctrines from "Brethren of Purity" in 10th C Baghdad which was not called Kaballah but from which the Jewish/Islamic later school derives.

All these are widely different so to express opinions we should know which one the OP had in mind I guess.
 

Timble2

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BTW Felicity/Avanka, I've read Fred Alan Wolfe PhD, and William Tiller, interesting ideas, but pretty much out on the fringes, I've also read The Tao of Physics. It's interesting to see parallels, but we're out on the borders between physics, metaphysics, and philosophy.
 

_Lizard23_

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I'd like to stand up for qabala.
*stands up*
It's not all Madonna's red strings and 'energised' water at five quid a bottle, you know - the whole Western Hermetic Tradition is riddled with mangled 'occult' qabala, in which framework I've studied it a little, and it is indeed a wonderous and mind-boggling thing.

I actually finally saw that 'What The Bleep' thing the other day and to be honest I thought it was RUBBISH. Everytone was tossing out throw-away references to how we can harness zero point energy these days and how there are dozens of labs in the states where you can go and look at something big enough to be visible to the naked eye which is in two places at the same time long enough for you to see and think there must be two of them, and stuff like that, which utterly undermined whatever 'stop living like a robot' message there might have been. Plus I just wanted to throttle that deaf chick. And there was energised water. Gah.
 

Timble2

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Glad I'm not the only person who thought "What the Bleep do we Know " was bollocks...
 

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What the Bleep... was produced by members of the Ramtha School of Enlightenment, so were very much toeing the far out party line in their comedy stylings. Oh, sorry, they really mean it. And you thought Scientologists were lame.
 

Felicity

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In response to Timble and others

'This is the usual mystical arse gravy from people who think by banging together quantum mechanics, which they don't understand, the kabbalah, which they don't understand, and the idea of the holographic universe, which is methaphor not a theory, which they don't understand, they've achieved some sort of insight... "

I must say I am finding much of the criticism very consistent with your preoccupation with Monty Python, so much so, that your behavior and replies, which have little or nothing to do with Quantum Physics, or the enlightening of those who might be interested, closely parallels the crowd response in "The Life of Brian".

I am trying to find the humour in your assumption as to my interest in Kabbalah as 'mystical arse gravy'. I can hardly escape my Jewishness.
It comes from a long tradition within my family, Prussian - now Australian Jews, which, in my abhorence for much of what has happened to the people of Palestine and the horrific results for those involved I had drifted from Judaism , then educated myself out of Christianity, found science had too little holistic focus (Bohm taught "that primary physical laws can not be discovered by a science that attempts to break a world in to it's parts."), then found I felt some sense of peace in the mystical path Kabbalah which addresses many of the root reasons for division and war.

Of course you would know the writings found in the period you allude to were driven by the persecution prevalent at that time. Up until that time it was a strictly oral tradition.

As you are already well informed as to Kabbalah Segovius-
'It is well known to be a 12th century Jewish modification of an existing Islamic formulation and neither of these frameworks drew very heavily on the Bible if at all."
You would know there are 4 languages- the Language of the Bible, the language of Laws, the language of legends, the language of the Sefirot and the Partzufin- based on the Bible.

Yes, I haven't studied quantum physics since having children, now grown up and married so am pretty behind the times... but still retain a naive interest in physicist's David Bohm's work and neuroscientist Karl Pribram...

The basic theory "Our brains mathematically construct 'concrete' reality by interpreting frequencies from another dimension, a realm of meaningful, patterned primary reality that transcends time and space. The brain is a hologram, interpreting a holographic universe."

Yes I do have a basic understanding of holography as my daughter constructed one as a year 12 project before going on to complete her degrees.

As to Ava, at 76 years, she is close to me after a shared bereavement.

Felicity
 

segovius

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Felicity said:
s you are already well informed as to Kabbalah Segovius-
'It is well known to be a 12th century Jewish modification of an existing Islamic formulation and neither of these frameworks drew very heavily on the Bible if at all."
You would know there are 4 languages- the Language of the Bible, the language of Laws, the language of legends, the language of the Sefirot and the Partzufin- based on the Bible.
Felicity, are you aware that the Kaballah as is generally known now is a deviation from the original which is very different?

That is to say, it is a later adaptation of the original? So it depends which one you mean.

For example, from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1&letter=C

Speaking of the doctrines of the 9th century Basra "Brothers of Sincerity" on which the Kaballah is based, the encyclopedia states that the original contained NINE elements which were later changed into TEN in the eleventh century and the Kaballah developed from there.

These nine numbers of the "Faithful Brothers" (compare De Boer, "Gesch. der Philosophie im Islam," p. 84; Dieterici, "Die Sogenannte Theologie des Aristoteles," p. 38; idem, "Weltseele," p. 15) have been changed by a Jewish philosopher of the middle of the eleventh century into ten, by counting the four elements not as a unit, but as two ("Torat ha-Nefesh," ed. Isaac Broydé, pp. 70, 75; compare, also, Guttmann, in "Monatsschrift," xlii. 450).
Normally this would not matter in an academic sense, it is merely interesting as all such development is, but if one is postulating a system that can lead to 'truth' then the matter becomes more significant..it can be a 'correct' system or an 'incorrect' one.

Unless one thinks that all such systems are 'incorrect' (and maybe they are) or else that it does not matter and all are 'correct' - but then in that case why bother following any specific one such as Kaballah? Why not follow all of them? Or none? Or make your own?
 

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kabbalah ,why are Quantum Physicists nterested

Felicity said:
As another footnote, after doing a bit of research- there is a Quantum Physicist, popularised in "What the Bleep do we know", Dr Fred Alan Wolfe PhD, who has an interest in Kabbalah, plus in another field, now of interest to the military, psycho-energetics, William A Tiller, also has an interest... this is probably what Ava was referring to, given many ordinary, run of the mill people enjoyed this film.

Perhaps, had she been given some sort of encouragement to correct an obvious oversight, given the title, Ava may still feel confident enough to bring her thoughts to this Forum.

Felicity :cry:
You mentioned psycho-energetics. Didn't both the US and Soviet Union back in the 1950s due experiments with psychics in regards to pyscho kinesis and remote viewing? I know that the Soviets certainly did, and there is information out there on the internet about it.
As far as love of Humanity goes, Jesus mentions this in the Bible.
I forget the passage, but at mass one day it was the gospel reading and the topic of the sermon. How Jesus told his listeners the greatest commandment was to love God, and the second greatest was to love your neighbor.
 

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Are you thinking of the Stargate Project remote viewing program, run by US govenment agencies from a sometimes in the 70s?
 

KarlD

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Felicity said:
In response to Timble and others



Yes, I haven't studied quantum physics since having children, now grown up and married so am pretty behind the times... but still retain a naive interest in physicist's David Bohm's work and neuroscientist Karl Pribram...



Felicity
Sadly physicist David Bohn's work on alternative interpretations of quantum theory is discredited now largly for technical reasons to do with the form that any interpretation of quantum mechanics must take, I.E it must work within the scope of Bell's theorum, which Bohm's theory does not do.
 

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There are some interesting articles on the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics and quantum quackery on wikipedia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousn ... ses_collap

I thought the idea that any measuring device which causes wave function collapse must by some accounts be considered conscious quite amusing.
 

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KarlD said:
I thought the idea that any measuring device which causes wave function collapse must by some accounts be considered conscious quite amusing.
The measuring device simply indicates to the observer that a change has occured. In doing so it acts as an extension to the senses of the observer, therefore it can be considered conscious.

Think of it as a pair of binoculars.
 

Felicity

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Thank you for your responses, they are at least giving me some basis for reference and also the vast number of areas of catch up I need to focus on...

Segovius, thank you for your insights, obviously have an interest in the topic of Kabbalah... the teachings which I have been familiar with has it's stream emanating from Abraham the Patriach 1,800 BCE- Sefir Yetzira (The Book of Creation) being ascribed to him, then Moses- the Book of Torah around 1,350 BCE... which in the five books also highlights the teaching of Jesus plus many other useful directives, the principal one being to follow the "Love thy Brother as thyself"...Rabbi Yitzhak Luria Ashkenzi 16th Century, the Lurianic Kabbalah then Ashlag's commentary on the Zohar. Perhaps another could be- not to eat fish without scales- it would do a lot for whales and dolphins.

I certainly still have no fixed idea as to definitive beliefs as they are evolving along with the introduction of new concepts. So I still retain the essence of a far broader set of belief systems than those to which I referred...

As to David Bohm's work, in the context of his- and my time- the work was of some academic merit plus jolly stimulating- it was his theory I had mentioned not my own... I find Bell's theorem quite challenging and am still, impaired by considerably less academic access to, and peer pressure from people such as yourselves, at a disadvantage. I am subject to more Senior's moments as well.

Does this mean that another work which I found quite stimulating from Evan Harris Walker dealing with subatomic events in the brain,
'Quantum Mechanical Tunneling in Synaptic and Ephaptic Transmission" (International Journal of Quantum Chemistry 11:102-127) faced with destined for the bin as well?

Thank you
Felicity
 

KarlD

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Felicity said:
Thank you for your responses, they are at least giving me some basis for reference and also the vast number of areas of catch up I need to focus on...

Segovius, thank you for your insights, obviously have an interest in the topic of Kabbalah... the teachings which I have been familiar with has it's stream emanating from Abraham the Patriach 1,800 BCE- Sefir Yetzira (The Book of Creation) being ascribed to him, then Moses- the Book of Torah around 1,350 BCE... which in the five books also highlights the teaching of Jesus plus many other useful directives, the principal one being to follow the "Love thy Brother as thyself"...Rabbi Yitzhak Luria Ashkenzi 16th Century, the Lurianic Kabbalah then Ashlag's commentary on the Zohar. Perhaps another could be- not to eat fish without scales- it would do a lot for whales and dolphins.

I certainly still have no fixed idea as to definitive beliefs as they are evolving along with the introduction of new concepts. So I still retain the essence of a far broader set of belief systems than those to which I referred...

As to David Bohm's work, in the context of his- and my time- the work was of some academic merit plus jolly stimulating- it was his theory I had mentioned not my own... I find Bell's theorem quite challenging and am still, impaired by considerably less academic access to, and peer pressure from people such as yourselves, at a disadvantage. I am subject to more Senior's moments as well.

Does this mean that another work which I found quite stimulating from Evan Harris Walker dealing with subatomic events in the brain,
'Quantum Mechanical Tunneling in Synaptic and Ephaptic Transmission" (International Journal of Quantum Chemistry 11:102-127) faced with destined for the bin as well?

Thank you
Felicity
Its certainly refreshing to find someone who is prepared to look at this with an open mind, what bell's theorum is about is Einstein always hated the idea that physical reality was at the lowest level non-deterministic which is what quantum mechanics says and Einstein supported the idea that things which quantum mechanics says can happen such as signals travelling faster than light, instantanious remote effects and so on could be explained by what are called 'hidden variables' bell's theorum in effect says that any interpretation of quantum mechanics cannot involve hidden variables and so the fundamentally mysterious paradoxes are still unexplained.
Einstein always objected to quantum theory the well known quote' God does not play dice' is not actualy true, someone plays a lot of dice.
There is another very interesting article on the Sokal affair which should be read by any subscribers to nexus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_Affair
 

Felicity

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Thank you KarlD, for your response and reference to the Sokai affair... I enjoyed it.

A am still interested in the concept of holographic processes at an individual and possible collective level (holographic being a parallel at this stage for the type of lenseless image produced in the mind as a result of percept-concept-memory), accounting for the physiological reality we experience as our reality.

This, in my individualistic understanding, does offer me a possible explanation as to why exercises in creative visualisation work positively in some illnesses and perhaps why, even though I consider it possible, it is very hard to change events that are part of general reality.

At this individual level there was a very interesting article in New Scientist on White Coat Witch Doctors- and the influence of an authority figure on prognosis for cancer sufferers.

Impacts at a collective level could possibly be generated and maybe they already have (as paradigm shifts in art/ social contexts), but determined generations of outcomes would face difficulties perhaps due to the need for a threshold number of people, with sufficient intent, that would be required to bring about a shift of this size.

I was interested in the more contemporary work that seems to have evolved from my old favorites such as Ken Wilbur (though I struggle with Buddhism so please don't assume I have a leaning in that direction), Karl Pribram's 'Everything is isomorphic' which has a connections to the Kabbalistic language of 'roots and branches', "As above, so below' etc and the work which is being done at Stanford with their global Consciousness project- EGG Project.

This seems to represent some integrated, multi disciplinary approach to the postulated 'noosphere'. I would be most interested if this has been looked at by those at this forum and hearing if it has been debunked as I have only just begun looking at it.. I am including the link.

(If this is spam- I am hesitant to include any link for this reason, please remove.)

http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

Felicity


:?: :?: :?: :?:
 

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MYSTICISM and neuroscience may seem poles apart, but they just might be made for each other.

Of late, cognitive neuroscientists have begun tackling topics such as the nature of the self, the mind and consciousness, all previously off limits because they seemed intractable. But mystics have had no such reservations. Over millennia they experimented with consciousness-altering techniques, and even with the sense of embodiment. Could cognitive neuroscience benefit from understanding the mystics’ experiences? Can neuroscience shed light on why mystics experience what they do?

Neurologist Shahar Arzy and professor of Jewish thought Moshe Idel certainly think so. In Kabbalah: A neurocognitive approach to mystical experiences, they try to make sense of a form of Jewish mysticism without trying to “demystify these experiences” or “reduce the… experience to a neurocognitive pattern”.

The authors eschew “top down” theological, psychoanalytical, social or psychopathological approaches and just analyse the experiences and what mystics do to attain them. The book focuses on ecstatic Kabbalah, a school of mysticism that emphasises attaining ecstatic experience. But forget blissed-out images. This usage is truer to its etymological roots: ex-stasis, being out of body.

Many such ecstatic episodes can involve seeing a “second” physical body near your real body, having the sense that your self is alternating between your real physical body and your double, or feeling that your self has left the body and is observing from above.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...campaign=hoot&cmpid=SOC[NSNS]2015-GLOBAL-hoot
 

Anonymous-50446

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Once you get over the idea that quantum physics and consciousness are interdependent to some degree (e.g. 'Quantum Enigma' Rosenblum and Kuttner), this kind of thing is not so odd to consider. Neither is the occasional tulpa come to that.

Back to the wyrd, it's all interconnected. At least mathematically.
 
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