Local & Dialect Words

[Stormkhan]

Thing is, as we all know language is constantly changing. Pronunciation in Middle English is far different from today, with shared words.
When it comes to learning English, the system is very proscriptive ("rules is rules") not only in basic grammar, punctuation, and spelling, but also in pronunciation. This supresses local dialect in schools and 'leaks over' into personal life.

 

[brownmane]

The excellent (& pleasantly-understated) Simon Roper recently refers to the historical erosion of rhoticity within Upper Class English between 1673 and 2023. His wonderful brief examples are really-informative, and I instinctively agree with his thesis that Upper Class English once sounded quite like elements of contemporary American.

I also deeply-appreciate his unselfconscious rendition of contemporary Royal elocution (please listen carefully to his Prince William/Harry phrase versus King Charles: I kind-of nearly knew it, but I needed to be told what I was hearing)

I think I've asked this before: are you (however) on the slide into suppressing your 'RRr's? I do mean nationally, rather than personally. There's definitely been a reduction in rhoticity across Scotland in recent years (the arguable home of rolling RRrs within the Angloshere), matched by similar softenings in much of the North of England.

My previous noticing of many younger Scots now defaulting to a strange bridged vowel-sound that replaces the classic Scottish/Canadian clipped 'aboot' (stereotypical phonetic rendition of "about") with a strangulated 'abaH-oôṭ' (or 'the NaH-oô' for 'the noo') remains reiterated. I'm not saying it's universal yet: but it will be in say 15-20yrs

I would say no. I made my comment about Canadians using rhotic pronunciation after reading the above article and looking up exactly what that is. We still do not shorten our words and still tend to pronounce all of the letters.

Edited to add: there is still a distinct American accent that drops the r sound, but I am not familiar enough with the states to say which area or state has this accent.

 

[maximus otter]

The secret language of Leicestershire's coal miners


Anyone from Leicestershire will know that we have a unique language here, with words and phrases that often don't mean much to outsiders. And it was the same for local coal miners, research has revealed.

Coal miners in the county had a secret language of their own compared to fellow miners in the East Midlands. Particular words and phrases used in Leicestershire ‘pit talk’ - as it was known - had never been heard in the neighbouring counties of Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire.

'Pit talk' included phrases like going "off the rod" which was used when two miners had fallen out. Other terms unique to Leicestershire were 'ringer', a crowbar, and 'stint', used to describe a length of coal. The research, led by Natalie Braber, professor of linguistics at Nottingham Trent University, found that Leicestershire’s miners also used words such as 'doddy' when working an extra hour, 'double doddy' for two extra hours, while sometimes referring to 'mekadoody' for doing overtime.

Natalie said that 'ommer' was a very typical local phrase used for hammer and that 'denting' was used when the floor level in the mine had to be lowered after it had risen due to geological fault lines. 'Dinting’ was the regular term used by other miners elsewhere in the region.

“A water bottle for Nottinghamshire miners would be ‘dudley’ while the Leicestershire miners have never heard of that,” Natalie added. “Language and forms change in different ways.”

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/history/secret-language-leicestershires-coal-miners-8990774

maximus otter

 

[Tempest63]

Not so much words as Accents. The local population of Aberystwyth are unhappy with the "vomit-inducing" Birmingham accent that has been brought to their manor by incoming midlanders.

A note pinned to someone’s house is being treated as a hate crime by the local plod.

I wonder if @Swifty has ever experienced such vitriolic abuse in Cromer, or are the people of Norfolk a bit more accepting of others than the Welsh?

Aberystwyth: 'Go back to Brummyland' note a hate crime - police https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67935426

 

[maximus otter]

Not so much words as Accents. The local population of Aberystwyth are unhappy with the "vomit-inducing" Birmingham accent that has been brought to their manor by incoming midlanders.

A note pinned to someone’s house is being treated as a hate crime by the local plod.

I wonder if @Swifty has ever experienced such vitriolic abuse in Cromer, or are the people of Norfolk a bit more accepting of others than the Welsh?

Aberystwyth: 'Go back to Brummyland' note a hate crime - police https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67935426

View attachment 72872

“Dyfed-Powys Police recorded 9,563 offences in Powys in the 12 months to June, an increase of 13 per cent compared to the previous year...

Of the biggest rises in Powys over the last 12 months has been sexual offences with 449 recorded – an increase of 23 per cent from the year before.

…violent crime has risen in the area by 19 per cent to 4,661 incidents. Criminal damage and arson were also up 18 per cent as were stalking and harassment offences. Public order offences were up 16 per cent and theft offences rose by 10 per cent.”

https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/23109000.crime-powys-2022---dyfed-powys-police-say/

- Yet apparently they can spare officers to investigate rude notes.

maximus otter

 

[Swifty]

Not so much words as Accents. The local population of Aberystwyth are unhappy with the "vomit-inducing" Birmingham accent that has been brought to their manor by incoming midlanders.

A note pinned to someone’s house is being treated as a hate crime by the local plod.

I wonder if @Swifty has ever experienced such vitriolic abuse in Cromer, or are the people of Norfolk a bit more accepting of others than the Welsh?

Aberystwyth: 'Go back to Brummyland' note a hate crime - police https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67935426

View attachment 72872

Myself and an ex (both of us with midlands accents) stayed at a camping site near Borth (correct spelling?) in Wales around 1992 time and we weren't exactly made to feel welcome. Actually, we were soon asked/told to leave but that might have been more down to the fact that I'd make a small campfire which really annoyed the local woman running the field. Borth's lovely though.

 

[Stormkhan]

It might be 'only' a rude note but as an indication of a building feeling of the locals, it might escalate to more serious incidents. Criminal damage, arson, etc. Which might also add to the figures you quote, Max.
Accents and dialects are used as an identity in most places. And sometimes that identity gets 'politicised'.

 

[ramonmercado]

“Dyfed-Powys Police recorded 9,563 offences in Powys in the 12 months to June, an increase of 13 per cent compared to the previous year...

Of the biggest rises in Powys over the last 12 months has been sexual offences with 449 recorded – an increase of 23 per cent from the year before.

…violent crime has risen in the area by 19 per cent to 4,661 incidents. Criminal damage and arson were also up 18 per cent as were stalking and harassment offences. Public order offences were up 16 per cent and theft offences rose by 10 per cent.”

https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/23109000.crime-powys-2022---dyfed-powys-police-say/

- Yet apparently they can spare officers to investigate rude notes.

maximus otter

I wonder if the increase in crime is due to the influx of Brummies?

 

[maximus otter]

I wonder if the increase in crime is due to the influx of Brummies?

Brummist!

maximus otter

 

[maximus otter]

It might be 'only' a rude note but as an indication of a building feeling of the locals, it might escalate to more serious incidents. Criminal damage, arson, etc.

Well a frown might escalate to a punch in the nose, but we don't (yet) arrest people for frowning.



maximus otter

 

[Frideswide]

Well a frown might escalate to a punch in the nose, but we don't (yet) arrest people for frowning.



maximus otter

it's a stitch-in-time tactic isn't it?

Get publicity for investigating what is after all a pretty unpleasant, anxiety raising missive and the git who wrote it won't be able to claim qui tacet consentire as an excuse for escalating to the next step of car keying.

 

[maximus otter]

it's a stitch-in-time tactic isn't it?

Get publicity for investigating what is after all a pretty unpleasant, anxiety raising missive and the git who wrote it won't be able to claim qui tacet consentire as an excuse for escalating to the next step of car keying.

Qui tacet is not a defence in UK law. lf someone keys your car, that’s an actual criminal offence, one in which the police can take action.

By all means retain the note, and alert your local police to it via the email system used for non-urgent comms so that it can be filed. To expect the police actively to investigate rudeness is a step too far.

As l pointed out in the “footpath-blocking thread” elsewhere, “not enough people, time or money” is “not enough people, time or money.” There are no “But surely you coulds.”

maximus otter

 

[Mr. Banooka]

The excellent (& pleasantly-understated) Simon Roper recently refers to the historical erosion of rhoticity within Upper Class English between 1673 and 2023. His wonderful brief examples are really-informative, and I instinctively agree with his thesis that Upper Class English once sounded quite like elements of contemporary American.

I also deeply-appreciate his unselfconscious rendition of contemporary Royal elocution (please listen carefully to his Prince William/Harry phrase versus King Charles: I kind-of nearly knew it, but I needed to be told what I was hearing)

I think I've asked this before: are you (however) on the slide into suppressing your 'RRr's? I do mean nationally, rather than personally. There's definitely been a reduction in rhoticity across Scotland in recent years (the arguable home of rolling RRrs within the Anglosphere), matched by similar softenings in much of the North of England.

My previous noticing of many younger Scots now defaulting to a strange bridged vowel-sound that replaces the classic Scottish/Canadian clipped 'aboot' (stereotypical phonetic rendition of "about") with a strangulated 'abaH-oôṭ' (or 'the NaH-oô' for 'the noo') remains reiterated. I'm not saying it's universal yet: but it will be in say 15-20yrs

Was literally about to post this same video, but thought I'd better double check first.

Fascinating!

 

[Sollywos]

A note pinned to someone’s house is being treated as a hate crime by the local plod.

Good grief! I lived in the Aberystwyth area for 25 years or so and never noticed any resentment of the Brummies, after all in the tourist season they were our bread and butter as it's in day trip distance!

 

[brownmane]

The excellent (& pleasantly-understated) Simon Roper recently refers to the historical erosion of rhoticity within Upper Class English between 1673 and 2023. His wonderful brief examples are really-informative, and I instinctively agree with his thesis that Upper Class English once sounded quite like elements of contemporary American.

I just listened to the whole video. I find it interesting that as he goes back to the older examples of English accents, I can understand the spoken word easier and don't really have to listen as closely to know what he is saying.

I do understand many accents and have little problem when hearing someone speak with an accent, but this surprised me.

The older accents sound more North American to me.

 

[Stormkhan]

Qui tacet is not a defence in UK law. lf someone keys your car, that’s an actual criminal offence, one in which the police can take action.

By all means retain the note, and alert your local police to it via the email system used for non-urgent comms so that it can be filed. To expect the police actively to investigate rudeness is a step too far.

As l pointed out in the “footpath-blocking thread” elsewhere, “not enough people, time or money” is “not enough people, time or money.” There are no “But surely you coulds.”

maximus otter

Fair enough. But isn't crime prevention (resources availability notwithstanding) as much a part of policing as investigation and arrest?

Good grief! I lived in the Aberystwyth area for 25 years or so and never noticed any resentment of the Brummies, after all in the tourist season they were our bread and butter as it's in day trip distance!

Living in a similar town, I struggle with locals to put over this point. They're normally the ones who are retired or an employee, rather than those who run a business or service. They use it to moan about their favourite pubs etc. being 'swamped' by tourists and then, when those same places are forced to close, they moan about them closing.
They even moan about events advertising for attendance; food festivals, steampunk fun, folk festivals, literary festivals - all need attendance and actively promote outside the area (some are actually bad at this) and yet, you meet locals at these events who say "This is what the place needs - something to do." while meaning 'something for locals to do.'

 

[maximus otter]

But isn't crime prevention (resources availability notwithstanding) as much a part of policing as investigation and arrest?

Yes. It gets its share of the 100%.

maximus otter

 

[Ogdred Weary]

Not so much words as Accents. The local population of Aberystwyth are unhappy with the "vomit-inducing" Birmingham accent that has been brought to their manor by incoming midlanders.

A note pinned to someone’s house is being treated as a hate crime by the local plod.

I wonder if @Swifty has ever experienced such vitriolic abuse in Cromer, or are the people of Norfolk a bit more accepting of others than the Welsh?

Aberystwyth: 'Go back to Brummyland' note a hate crime - police https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67935426

View attachment 72872

The writer uses and underlines "please", indicating they are very polite.

 

[Stormkhan]

That's being polite, that is!
Or that is what would be claimed by their solicitors.

 

[JamesWhitehead]

It looks like a very small street! Not one which ought to take long to solve.

 

[gojiramonkey]

People from the potteries in Stoke would say ''Not that I know to'' for ''not that I know of''.

Also ''ist ok'' for are you ok? (I think that might be from Derbyshire as well).

''Dust have a car?'' Do you have a car?

Grew up in Shropshire NEAR Telford but not in Telford , and Ow Bist was common in Telford for How are you and people were addressed as Jockey or Blue as terms of friendliness or to mates , as in Ow bist , Jockey ?? But not in our area which was less than ten miles away

 

[Sid]

Grew up in Shropshire NEAR Telford but not in Telford , and Ow Bist was common in Telford for How are you and people were addressed as Jockey or Blue as terms of friendliness or to mates , as in Ow bist , Jockey ?? But not in our area which was less than ten miles away

'Ow bist' in Gloucestershire to apparently, (old glos).
*Added. . . 'Forest of Dean,'

 

[gojiramonkey]

'Ow bist' in Gloucestershire to apparently, (old glos).

Ah , ok , interesting.... midlands and south west .... I guess bist must come from the Anglo Saxon that morphed into German. And I have family up in Newcastle upon Tyne and when I was up there with the aforementioned Danish girlfriend (of the Lidl mystery product story in the crisps thread on here ) she was amazed that the Geordie I'm ganning yemm (phonetically) for going home, is a direct Danish phrase gann hjem (sic) with obviously the same meaning.

 

[AgProv]

Grew up in Shropshire NEAR Telford but not in Telford , and Ow Bist was common in Telford for How are you and people were addressed as Jockey or Blue as terms of friendliness or to mates , as in Ow bist , Jockey ?? But not in our area which was less than ten miles away

That word "jock" has an interesting derivation: apparently it referred to very basic and cheaply made protection for a fighting soldier, where metal plates were either stitched into the layers of a leather jerkin, or else fastened to the outside, like a poor man's chainmail. Up on the Scottish border, large parties of men riding South wearing "jocks" were bad news to the border English as they were only riding South for one reason, raiding and pillaging. Hence the name of the garment transferred to the people wearing it. (I'm wondering if "jock" in the other sense derives from more cautious or worried border raiders who didn't see any reason why armour protection should stop at the belt buckle...)

Telford is close enough to another formerly contested Border for this to have mattered, and I'm wondering if mediaeval men-at-arms wearing the same sort of garment - who would largely have been On Our Side patrolling the Border, if you were English - bequeathed the word to local border English. A jock, or Jockey, might six hundred years ago have been part of the comitatus, local men called up to respond to reported Welsh incursions, part-time soldiers using whatever basic protection they could lay their hands on, and therefore it might originally have been on a par with greeting a fellow squaddie on the same patrol duty. Like a Tom in the modern or recently modern British army. Also wondering if "jerkin" is a related term.

This sort of thing: metal plates might be sewn in between two layers of leather and fabric and retained in place by the "quilting"

 

[catseye]

I was thinking this morning about my Mum because I was making a stew. Now, I call the fluffy suet-and-flour (and sometimes herbs or cheese) things that float in a stew 'dumplings'. But I was remembering that my mum used to call them 'doughboys'. As far as I am aware, dumplings is the usual word and you can buy 'dumpling mix' in packets (which is just flour and suet and you add water).

Mum came from Windsor originally - is it a south eastern word? Or did it arise in the family?

 

[Floyd]

I was thinking this morning about my Mum because I was making a stew. Now, I call the fluffy suet-and-flour (and sometimes herbs or cheese) things that float in a stew 'dumplings'. But I was remembering that my mum used to call them 'doughboys'. As far as I am aware, dumplings is the usual word and you can buy 'dumpling mix' in packets (which is just flour and suet and you add water).

Mum came from Windsor originally - is it a south eastern word? Or did it arise in the family?

Horatio Nelson and his sailors were familiar with the term used in that way, apparently.

 

[Sid]

I was thinking this morning about my Mum because I was making a stew. Now, I call the fluffy suet-and-flour (and sometimes herbs or cheese) things that float in a stew 'dumplings'. But I was remembering that my mum used to call them 'doughboys'. As far as I am aware, dumplings is the usual word and you can buy 'dumpling mix' in packets (which is just flour and suet and you add water).

Mum came from Windsor originally - is it a south eastern word? Or did it arise in the family?

I know that Doughboy's is certainly the term used in Scotland - cos we used to 'ave em!

 

[catseye]

Pretty sure that my mother was neither from Scotland (nor had any Scottish tendencies or relatives), nor was she a sailor. Or Nelson. So I wonder where she got it from? She was London and Windsor growing up, then moved to Devon to marry my Dad, who called them 'dumplings' as far as I can remember. Is it a geographical thing or an era thing (she was born in 1932)?

 

[hunck]

I was thinking this morning about my Mum because I was making a stew. Now, I call the fluffy suet-and-flour (and sometimes herbs or cheese) things that float in a stew 'dumplings'. But I was remembering that my mum used to call them 'doughboys'. As far as I am aware, dumplings is the usual word and you can buy 'dumpling mix' in packets (which is just flour and suet and you add water).

Mum came from Windsor originally - is it a south eastern word? Or did it arise in the family?

Dumplings are the miniature version. Full size are Dumples.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Pretty sure that my mother was neither from Scotland (nor had any Scottish tendencies or relatives), nor was she a sailor. Or Nelson. So I wonder where she got it from? She was London and Windsor growing up, then moved to Devon to marry my Dad, who called them 'dumplings' as far as I can remember. Is it a geographical thing or an era thing (she was born in 1932)?

I went to school in Windsor, and I call them dumplings.