• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

London Bombings: Conspiracies

It does seem strange. Witnesses claim that they saw him in a bulky jacket and leaping the gates - but witness can be mistaken.

The family also claimed that his visa was correct and up to date.

The trouble is - and all respect to the family, the cousin wasn't actually there to see what happened so where does his info come from. If it comes from the Police themselves then this should come up in the enquirey.

We would be best seeing what comes out of the enquirey before passing any kind of judgement on either the police or Jean Charles de Menezes.
 
The family also claimed that his visa was correct and up to date.

I do have my doubts about this - despite what the tabloid press would have you think, it is extremely difficult to get a UK visa unless you have a British spouse, a parent/grandparent born here or are sponsored by an employer. I have an Australian friend who recently had to leave because she was unable to obtain a visa extension.

I think is visa was almost certainly dodgy, but that shouldn't be a capital offence...
 
Yes, I have doubts about it too. A student visa isn't too hard but a working visa is harder to get hold of.
 
How big was the terror plot?


By Jason Bennetto, Kim Sengupta and Terry Kirby

28 July 2005
The terrorist cell that killed 52 people in London may have been planning to throw nail bombs into a nightclub or a football crowd. A cache of 16 bombs and bomb components was left by the 7 July suicide attackers in a car in Luton, raising the possibility that yet another terror unit may be at large.

The discovery provides another link with the men behind the 21 July attacks on London, one of whom used a similar device. Yesterday, police arrested one of the four suspected failed suicide bombers.

Officers used a Taser stun gun to knock down Yasin Hassan Omar as he was allegedly trying to escape after they raided a house in Birmingham at 4.30am. No explosives were found. Three suspected failed bombers are still being hunted and officers mounted several raids in London and made several arrests around the country.

Police also released a new picture yesterday of the unidentified Shepherd's Bush bomber, and gave details of his escape after his device failed to go off on 21 July.

The 16 bomb parts found in Luton, including one nail device and a number of other packets of explosives, were discovered by police in a rented Nissan Micra at the main railway station five days after the 7 July attack. The types of bombs are far more alarming than police had previously disclosed. They include a Molotov cocktail-style bottle bomb, packed with explosive and studded with nails. Security agencies warned after the 7 July attacks on three Tube trains and a bus that future attacks could be against nightclubs, sports stadiums or large public gatherings. The warning could have been related to the bombs in the car used by the Leeds-based terrorists.

The confidential Metro-politan Police photographs were shown yesterday on the American television network ABC News. Pictures of the carnage caused by the suicide bomber at King's Cross, in which 27 died, were also broadcast. It is the latest leak to come from the United States and has caused anger among British police and intelligence agencies.

The disclosure of a cache of different types of bomb components raises disturbing questions. Was the car a bomb store for another team of bombers who, for whatever reason, failed to collect them? Security sources have said there is no evidence yet of a "missing" team. The nail bomb poses the question of whether terrorists were planning a different form of attack. It may be that the four suicide bombers - Mohammed Sidique Khan, 30, Shahzad Tanweer, 22, Hasib Hussain, 18, and Germaine Lindsay, 19 - merely brought with them a choice of devices and dumped the ones they did not need.

The Nissan was hired by Tanweer and is believed to have been used to bring the other two Leeds-based terrorists, Hussain and Khan. It is unclear whether explosives were found in the Fiat left at the station by Lindsay.

Weapons specialists agreed the Luton discoveries suggested the terrorists may have been planning to throw the nail bomb into crowded places.

Andy Oppenheimer, an explosives specialist for Jane's Information Group, said the photographs showed "simple and deadly" bombs. "These are easy to make and are of a type which has been used by Ulster gangs and Palestinian terrorists in Israel to deadly effect," he said.

The nail bombs appear to be milk bottles packed with explosives, possibly acetone peroxide made from household chemicals, mixed with what might be military plastic explosive to stabilise it and increase its power. There are sharp, short nails or tacks stuck on the outside and the whole thing is covered in plastic wrap. "The nails are simply there to increase the destructive power of the bomb," Mr Oppenheimer said. "They can be very deadly in a confined space."

The second type of bomb part appears to be film-wrapped packages of explosives of the type almost certainly used in the rucksack bombs carried by the 7 July suicide bombers.

In Birmingham, Mr Omar, a 24-year-old Somalian, was arrested when officers raided a house in Heybarnes Road, Hay Mills. About 100 homes were evacuated as bomb squad officers moved in. One report suggested he had a rucksack which an officer threw through a window. Mr Omar, suspected of trying to blow up a Tube train near Warren Street last Thursday, was taken to Paddington Green police station in London.

In Heybarnes Road, people said men fitting the description of Mr Omar and another suspected failed bomber, Muktar Said Ibrahim, had been seen in the area on Saturday. Shortly after the arrest, three other men were arrested two miles away in Bankdale Road, Washwood Heath, Birmingham. They are being held in Birmingham. Neighbours said three Somalian men had been staying in the semi-detached property.

Police also raided houses in Finchley and Enfield, north London, where no arrests were made, and in Stockwell, south London, where three women were arrested.

At least three suspected would-be suicide bombers from the failed 21 July attacks are still on the run. They include Mr Ibrahim, 27.Detectives are investigating reports from residents in New Southgate, north London, that the day after the failed attacks some of the four returned to a flat they had used as a bomb factory.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... ory=654325
 
Strange stuff this

London bomb suspect held in Zambia

Last Modified: 29 Jul 2005
Source: ITN

A man wanted in connection with the London bombings on July 7 has been arrested in Zambia.

Haroon Rashid Aswat, who grew up in West Yorkshire, was arrested last week and is being held for his alleged role in setting up a terror camp in Oregon, according to the Los Angeles Times.

A Foreign Office spokesman could not confirm his identity but said: "We are currently seeking consular access to a British national reported to be in custody in Zambia."
Aswat, 30, is believed to have been in Britain in the days leading up to the July 7 attacks, apparently leaving just hours before the explosions.

British authorities are looking into whether he had been in close contact with the suicide bombers involved in the blasts, which killed 52 people as well as the four perpetrators.

Investigators discovered some 20 calls had been made from his mobile phone to two of the four men, according to reports.

http://www.channel4.com/news/content/ne ... ?id=305119

Then we have

British al-Qaeda suspect facing extradition to US
By Simon Freeman, Times Online




Haroon Rashid Aswat (Paul Sanders/Reuters)

A British al-Qaeda suspect wanted in America for allegedly running a terror training camp today said that he was "baffled" by the claim as he opposed a White House demand for his extradition.

Haroon Rashid Aswat, 30, from Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, was arrested when he arrived back in Britain yesterday after being deported from Zambia. He was remanded in custody until August 11 following a hearing before Bow Street Magistrates, sitting at a secure complex within Belmarsh Prison.



Mr Aswat now faces being extradited to the US after a warrant was issued accusing him of being involved in conspiring to train people in Oregon to "fight jihad" in Afghanistan.

Dressed in a long, black robe, he sat with his arms folded throughout the hearing. He denied any involvement in terrorism and, asked whether he would consent to being extradited to the United States, he replied: "At the moment, no."

Hugo Keith, a lawyer for the US Government, said that Mr Aswat had been involved in setting up a training camp in Oregon which had aimed to provide training for American and British men who would then be sent to fight jihad in Afghanistan. The intention was for them to learn how to use weapons, hand-to-hand combat and martial arts.

Mr Keith said that the camp was established by another man, but Mr Aswat and an accomplice arrived later to raise money and establish the camp further. He is said to have arrived in New York from Britain on November 26, 1999, and to have brought with him CD-Roms showing how to make bombs and poisons and how to conduct military operations.

Mr Keith said that Mr Aswat had claimed to have been in a camp in Afghanistan and to have met Osama bin Laden, the leader of al-Qaeda. He remained at the camp in Bly, Oregon, for a month before going back to Seattle and his whereabouts after that were unknown, Mr Keith said.

Mr Keith said: "When arrested he had the majority of his belongings with him which signalled a nomadic lifestyle."

The accusations against Mr Aswat in the United States means he faces up to 15 years in jail there, but Mr Keith said the charges could change and he could face a longer term of imprisonment.

Hassein Zahir, representing Mr Aswat, said that he had no connections to terrorism. He said: "He wishes to stress he has nothing to hide. He wishes to stress he is not seeking to avoid answering these allegations. He denies these allegations.

"He believes he has no secrets whatsoever and he has spoken openly. He is also baffled that these allegations come about nearly five years later and he wishes to make clear he has never led a clandestine life."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 13,00.html


I also read when he was arrested in Italy he had some traces of explosives on him !

now there appears to be no evidence and he may be transfered to USA !

errrrr

whats going on here ?

This was the chap that was linked to MI6 in an earlier posting.

stranger and stranger.
 
It's only 'strange' if you take reports made at various times at face value, and then compare them. This is more of a factor of bad or misinformed reportage rather than anything more untoward.
 
It's only 'strange' if you take reports made at various times at face value, and then compare them. This is more of a factor of bad or misinformed reportage rather than anything more untoward.

I should have guessed you would say that Jerry !

So the chap that had been seen in public as the hook handed ones right hand man is completely innocent !
He was not caught with explosives in pakistan !
and he didnt have any phone records to the bombers phones they got it wrong.
He isnt linked with MI6
and the US are wanting him for traffic offences.

yeah ok I,m completely wrong as usual Jerry
 
No, I meant that different bits of information appear in the various media at different times, and aren't always right. If they don't always add up, it doesn't mean that it's symptomatic of a conspiracy or cover-up. Which bits are actually facts and which are not at any given time is hard to dsicern when the various media outlets are involved, and how they report information.

Todays' leak of the IPC inquiry into the Menezes shooting shows how reportage by both the police and the media can be wide of the actualities at the time of any given event:

http://www.channel4.com/news/content/ne ... id=1677571
 
Saying that people get things mixed up all the time and the media don't know theor arse from the head all time does nothing to convince me Jerry.

If the Guardian say they have info that he was arrested with false papers and explosives then he probably did !!

bottom line is the government officails over here are no back tracking on information they had gathered during July !

Why are they ?

This man is up to his arms in it why is he being sent to america ?

Did the police get him all wrong or not ?
 
That's probably because you'd rather believe that something untoward is going on - rather than the less exotic possibility that the various media outlets don't have full access themselves to all information at any given time.

The flow, nature, and content of information about any given situation can change over time. These sorts of situations are a prime example. This doesn't imply that 'media don't know theor arse from the head all time', but that you shouldn't assume that they have things right the first, second, third, etc. time around.
 
If thats the case Jerry what use at all is any reporting ?

this Haroon Rashid Aswat Bloke is as guilty as sin

Do you think he has nothing to do with the bombings ?
 
greets

some more journalism on the case:

July 31, 2005

Tangled web that still leaves worrying loose ends
The arrest of Haroon Rashid Aswat sets numerous questions, say Richard Woods, David Leppard and Mick Smith
Three weeks after the first London bombings, British and American security sources are giving markedly different versions of how much was known about the bombers before the attacks and who masterminded them.

According to US intelligence sources, a man now being held in Zambia is Haroon Rashid Aswat, a Briton of Indian origin who has links to a convicted Al-Qaeda terrorist. They believe he assisted or masterminded the London attacks.

But British investigators, examining whether telephone calls were made between the London bombers and Aswat before the attacks of 7/7, caution that the calls may have been made to a phone linked to Aswat, rather than the man himself.

Some of the mobile phones used by the 7/7 bombers have been recovered from the scenes of the explosions. Even though they are badly damaged, forensic telecommunications experts have had some success in recovering vital data relating to outgoing calls, text messages and voice mail.

Those details are allowing investigators to draw up a network of “concentric circles” around the four dead men, an exercise that has already led them to identify some of those who may have helped the bombers.

This weekend it appears that several calls from Aswat’s mobile telephone were made to the bombers in the days before the attacks. It is likely that the American National Security Agency — which has a powerful eavesdropping network — was monitoring the calls. If contacts between the bombers and Aswat are proved, it could be a painful blow for British security officials.

In the weeks before the attacks Aswat, according to American officials, was under surveillance in South Africa and US authorities wanted to arrest him for questioning.

The South Africans are believed to have relayed the request to British authorities who were reluctant to agree to him being seized because of his status as a British citizen. The US, it is claimed, wanted to take control of Aswat using a process known as “extraordinary rendition”, which would bypass the normal extradition process and may have resulted in him being flown to Guantanamo Bay in Cuba or a country that allows torture.

However, questions are also being asked about whether the British did not wish to have Aswat arrested because he was seen as a useful source of information. To some, British intelligence is too willing to let terrorist suspects run in the hope of gathering useful leads and other information.

In the weeks before the London attacks a man said to be Aswat may have entered the UK, though British security officials think this may be a case of mistaken identity.

What seems clearer is that he either slipped his surveillance or was allowed to move on from South Africa. He was seized in Zambia on July 21, according to the Foreign Office, the day the second wave of would-be suicide bombers struck. On Friday, British officials had yet to be granted access to him.

As a potential mastermind of the London attacks, Aswat has connections and a past that are almost too neat a fit. Now 31, he was brought up in Dewsbury, near Leeds, where Mohammad Sidique Khan, one of the London bombers, lived. He left the area 10 years ago and is believed to have travelled to training camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan. He is said to have told investigators in Zambia that he was once a bodyguard for Osama Bin Laden.

When Aswat returned to Britain he attended the Finsbury Park mosque in north London, which was a hotbed of radicalism in the late 1990s and early 2000s.

Reda Hassaine, an Algerian journalist who worked as an informant for the British and French security services, witnessed Aswat recruiting young men at the mosque to the cause of Al-Qaeda.

“Inside the mosque he would sit with the new recruits telling them about life after death and the obligation of every Muslim to do the jihad against the unbelievers,” said Hassaine last week. “All the talk was about killing in order to go to paradise and get the 72 virgins.”

Aswat also showed potential recruits videotapes of the mujaheddin in action in Bosnia and Chechnya.

“He used to tell them look at your brothers, the mujaheddin. All of them are now in paradise living next to the prophet,” said Hassaine.

“He was always wearing Afghan or combat clothes. In the evening he offered some tea to the people who would sit with him to listen to the heroic action of the mujaheddin before joining the cleric for the finishing touch of brainwashing.

“The British didn’t seem to understand how dangerous these people were.”

Among the extremists who attended the mosque were Richard Reid, the “shoe bomber”, and Asif Hanif, a British suicide bomber who blew himself up in a Tel Aviv bar in 2003 killing three others and injuring 60.

While Aswat was closely connected with the Finsbury Park mosque, he was sent to America to meet a known Al-Qaeda activist. US investigators accuse him of being one of the “co-conspirators” of Earnest James Ujaama, who co-operated with US authorities after being charged in 2002 for planning to recruit and train jihadists in the US.

Aswat is said by US investigators to have travelled from London to Oregon in November 1999 to meet Ujaama and scout out a potential jihad training “ranch”. In the end the conspirators did not proceed with it.

There are other concerns. If Aswat knew the London bomber Khan, it would also link him to a group uncovered last year who allegedly were planning a large bomb attack. Under Operation Crevice, police arrested eight men after finding a large quantity of explosive material in a garage in west London.

During that investigation, Khan’s name surfaced on the periphery, but he was deemed no threat and not pursued. Some US investigators now claim another name also surfaced during Operation Crevice: that of Germaine Maurice Lindsay. He became another of the 7/7 bombers — and US authorities claim he was also on a watch list of suspected terrorists when he caused carnage at King’s Cross.

However, British security sources deny Lindsay’s name cropped up in Operation Crevice. And investigators say there is no hard evidence of what role, if any, Aswat played in the London attacks. Scotland Yard sources say he is not considered a priority in their criminal investigation into the July 7 and July 21 attacks. But senior Whitehall officials do not rule out the possibility there my be links to one or more of the bombers.

“I don’t think the evidence is conclusive either way,” one official was reported as saying in the US.

Senior Whitehall officials also deny “any knowledge” that he might be an agent for either MI5 or MI6.

The differences between the US and British agencies are symptomatic of a simmering distrust. Leaving aside the differences over Aswat, some aspects of the attacks increasingly point to an organising mind beyond the immediate bombers.

For five days after the first attacks, enough bomb-making material to kill scores of people sat in a car at Luton station before police discovered it. There was at least one completed explosive device and about 15 other items.

That finding remains a worrying loose end in the investigation. Why would the four bombers, intent on killing themselves, leave behind so much material in a car for which they had bought a seven-day parking ticket? A number of hypotheses are possible. The bombers may have bought the parking ticket in order not to arouse suspicion, and they may have chosen not to carry all the explosives they had prepared.

Another possibility is that the bombers were duped and had intended to return to their car. Were they told to plant their bombs in the belief they were timed to explode later than they did? Alternatively, was there a fifth bomber who dropped out at the last moment and abandoned his explosives and the car? Or was explosive material left behind deliberately for other terrorists to collect? Late last week, Scotland Yard was still refusing to say exactly what type of explosive was used in the 7/7 and 21/7 attacks on the grounds that doing so might prejudice its investigations.

But experts believe both sets of bombers used home-made explosives concocted from readily available household products.

Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan police commissioner, warned that the 21/7 attackers were not “the B team”, despite the failure to detonate their bombs fully. “They made one mistake. We are very, very lucky.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1715122_3,00.html

mal
 
greets

always difficult in these cases to know just how much "information" is plain guess work, deliberate misinformation, strategic disinformation, mistakes, garbage, attention seeking, pressure of news reporting etc etc.

equally one can understand that some people might see a pattern in the release of information that later turns out to be incorrect, when the info puts a more postivie spin on events than the actuality.

re the stockwell shooting.

Sir Ian Blair was obviously wrong in stating that the victim was challenged before being shot;

witnesses who claimed he was wearing a heavy jacket were obviously wrong (and the police would have known that straight away)

equally wrong were claims that he vaulted over the ticket machines (or whatever they call those things in tube stations now)

also previous reports that CCTV was not working at stockwell also seem now to be contradicted.

the shooting itself seems a classic cock-up (the attempted whitewash more a conspiracy)

mal
 
I work at Toronto airport and saw the crash. Absolutely amazing that everyone (or anyone) survived. When I saw the plane on fire in the ravine (quite a sizable valley, not the 'ditch' or 'gully' mentioned in some reports) I was sure there would be heavy casualties.

Being on the scene of a newsworthy event gives you insight into how the news media work. First they got the airline and aircraft type wrong, variously reporting the crash of a plane not built yet (Airbus 350) and a plane that can't make transAtlantic flights (737). Next they played the terrorism card with a completely spurious report that 'a passenger had tried to take control of the plane'.

Then they interviewed 'experts' and 'eyewitnesses' who didn't have a clue - one guy referred to Etobicoke Creek as Rouge River. Ya only missed it by 60km, buddy

Totally off topic and actually from another board so please may I beg your indulgence for a moment to show how events in the media of even a relatively simple event can become completely skewed, this was a comment about the crashing of the Air France plane at Pearson airport at Toronto.
 
Not quite the same Heckler as tying Haroon Rashid Aswat to the Hooked one and AQ is it really ?

He's been caught trying to recruit for AQ for years
we have piccys of him and the Hooked one !

Guilty as sin simple as that.
 
Er no which might be why I mentioned it was totally off topic. Do try to keep up TB old chap :D .

But no my point is rather that the media makes mistakes and frequently compounds them by re-reporting previous assumptions as proven facts.
 
But no my point is rather that the media makes mistakes and frequently compounds them by re-reporting previous assumptions as proven facts.

Yep I agree mistakes are made occasionally

but they are not wrong all the time !
 
But it would be wise not to take everything as wrote, especially in these sorts of situations.
 
I have not taken everything as wrote Jerry

I have provided quite a few links that say the same things
 
Yes, but that doesn't necessarily that they're all correct. The new situation suggested by the leaked Menzes inquiry shows that reportage etc. can be flawed - it doesn't matter how many sources say it at any particular point in time if they're pretty much repeating each other. That's simply a loop.
 
so what your saying is all evidence is potentially useless so whats the point of the discussion
 
It's not necessarily 'evidence' though, is it? You're confusing (and equating) reportage with evidence.
 
Everything we read in the papers is bollocks then ?

and the police etc don't give the press info destined for the public.

or the police are missleading us via the media ?

or the police are crap ?

or the media are controlled by unseen forces and do not always report what the police tell them.

all boils down to Media is totally unreliable in your terms Jerry.

FOI ???
 
*sigh* Go back and read what I've said. I'm not dismissing it all as 'bollocks'. I'm saying that reportage is not to be taken as fact. It's content is transitory. You should only take it on board as a marker of information or opinion or assumption about any given event, with the caveat that it may not be 100% factual - and that this tends to become even more warped in certain situations. After the situation has calmed down, it's not unusual for a different picture to usually emerge - you can see this with coverage of Iraq's 'WMD', the Menzes shooting, etc..
 
scary conversation this

look

I,ll try another tack

do you think IYHO that Haroon Rashid Aswat is connected to the 7/7 bombings ?

given the current press information available ?
 
Has more twists than a Dan Brown Book

Early theories of London bombings now in doubt



ALAN COWELL & RAYMOND BONNER


Posted online: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 at 0021 hours IST



LONDON, AUGUST 15: With some fanfare in the weeks since the London bombings, British authorities quickly detained the main surviving suspects and, just as rapidly, embarked on a high-profile campaign to expel prominent foreign-born Islamic figures as part of promised measures against extremism.

But the investigation into the lethal July 7 attacks and the failed July 21 attacks seems to have undergone some less-publicised changes that have left important questions—in public at least—unanswered. Some leads, once hotly pursued, have fizzled out. Others have proved to be blind alleys.



Investigators doubt their early estimation that the two groups of attackers had an organisational link to Al Qaeda, a senior British police official said, though the attackers might have taken their inspiration from it. Nor have investigators identified any outside mastermind, or any evidence of an operational link between the groups of attackers.

Initially, Ian Blair, Commissioner of London’s Metropolitan Police, said the July 21 attacks had some ‘‘resonance’’ with the earlier bombing: Both attacks made targets of three subway trains and a bus; both involved young Muslim men with bulky bags or backpacks laden with homemade explosives capable, in his words, of wreaking ‘‘carnage’’.

Since then, comparisons of the two sets of attackers have become more nuanced. The groups differed in makeup. Three of the four July 7 bombers were concentrated near Leeds in the north and were of Pakistani descent. The July 21 group came from disparate areas north, south and west of the city, and several of them were of African descent.

One of the suspects in the July 21 attacks, Hussain Osman, also known as Hamdi Issac and who fled to Italy, told investigators in Rome that their attacks were ‘‘copycat’’ attacks designed to frighten, but not kill, Britons, said his court-appointed lawyer, Antoinette Sonnessa. Still, investigators have not ruled out the possibility that the groups were linked. —NYT

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story ... t_id=76359

errrr mobile conversations ???? errrrr
Car in Luton airport errrrrrr
matching explosive devices found in car
errrr Mr hook best mates of the head arranger

do I smell a lot of back tracking !
 
techybloke666 said:
do you think IYHO that Haroon Rashid Aswat is connected to the 7/7 bombings ?

given the current press information available ?

Given what I've said to you recently, how on earth do you think I'd have formed a definite opinion about this? :roll:
 
To be honest, my jury is still out - and for the reasons I've given above. That should be obvious by now.
 
Back
Top