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Magick: What's The Point?

Re: Re: Think First

Dark Detective said:
So magick is thinking about something you want, figuring out how to get it, then going out and getting it.
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Yep.

Think it's easy? Most of us want things like wealth, fame, and glory. Most of us don't get them.

Do the math, as the qabbalists say.
 
Re: Re: Re: Think First

FraterLibre said:
Think it's easy? Most of us want things like wealth, fame, and glory. Most of us don't get them.
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Can't argue with that. It's interesting that I myself have been performing magick without knowing it or calling it that.

One thing I don't quite understand, and never got a satisfactory answer to: I've had lengthy correspondences with persons learned in satanism and Crowley's philosophies to try and understand what it's about and why people choose to follow them. Satanism, for example, is largely a philosophy based upon common sense which the majority of us live according to unknowingly. But in that, and it seems within Magick, there is a need to wrap the whole thing up in mystical imagery, e.g. demons, symbols, pentagrams, and so on. This all strikes me as a bit puerile and unneccessary, shrouding a genuinely useful philosophical point of view, the very positive message of empowering oneself, in what seems to me to be useless mumbo jumbo. This, I feel, weakens its standing as an acceptable way of living one's life, particularly in our modern society.
Why is all that necessary, particularly if no one believes in demons, mythical beings, external powers (previously referred to as 'Buffyisms' I believe) and so on and so forth...?
 
Layers Upon Layers

It's to keep the literalists and unworthy from waking up and realizing. By tossing them the mumbo bones we let them play harmlessly amongst themselves and can get on with The Work.

It weeds out the Buffies.

The Invisible College has no admissions desk or fees. If you can understand what's going on, then you're allowed to play. It's that simple. For those with eyes to see, it's simple and obvious. For others, it's demons, wizards, and magpie thievery.
 
Hmm - I'd argue that's it partly an exercise to stimulate the imagination, and partly a hand-me-down from medieval magical systems.

The key thing is that the processes are deliberately drawn out and demanding in order to focus the Will and to concentrate the mind. In a sense it's also like the process involved when you have to concentrate on tapping your head whilst rubbing your stomach in circular motions, or learning to juggle. Other parts of such processes, such as fasting, are another thing to sharpen this focus. It's a way of getting yourself into a different gear, which is necessary for such processes. Strictly speaking, and WRT what Quicksilver has said about his/hr own approach, I'd say that's absolutely essential to develop your powers of concentration in order to get the process to work. There is discipline involved, and this stems from and leads into a deeper understanding of focusing the Will through concentration. This perhaps is why Frater Libre is so scathing of 'Buffyism' magic - the approach lacks all discipline. It's more like the fast-food, quick fix style of an attitude towards magic. All you do is look up a few spells, perhaps memorise them and voila magic occurs. But it's not that simple, of course ;)
 
Impatience

Yes, that explains my impatience with the Buffies. They are falling into magical thinking, which is a psychological disorder rooted in superstitious fear and lack of discipline.

Another reason so many magickal systems are couched in recherché baroquisms is that they had to be encoded so Mother Church didn't come burn them at the stake, book or writer or both.

It's best to encode.
 
Re: Layers Upon Layers

FraterLibre said:
It weeds out the Buffies.
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But, supposing the 'Buffies' have a point? Perhaps the '5000 Spirits of the Layers of the Onion' are not really necessary and that what has to be conveyed about the nature of reality is really blindingly obvious and the rest is merely obfuscation?

Perhaps, the Buffettes are really just the entertainment industry's Alexander, come to chop through Gordion Knot that is our Can't Do society?
 
Uh

Where you been, Andro Man? We just got done discussing all this. I mean, like just now. A minute a go. Afro too tight?
 
Re: Uh

FraterLibre said:
Where you been, Andro Man? We just got done discussing all this. I mean, like just now. A minute a go. Afro too tight?
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Tsk Tsk.

Did I rattle your cage?
 
Levity

Not in the slightest, and please don't let my joshing unsettle you.
 
JerryB said:
The key thing is that the processes are deliberately drawn out and demanding in order to focus the Will and to concentrate the mind. In a sense it's also like the process involved when you have to concentrate on tapping your head whilst rubbing your stomach in circular motions, or learning to juggle.
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This of course was the approach Gurdjieff used: "Dervish dances", complicated sets of physical movements designed to wrest control from the concious mind in order to tap subconcious energies. Colin Wilson's "Mysteries" goes into depth about this.
ibid
This perhaps is why Frater Libre is so scathing of 'Buffyism' magic - the approach lacks all discipline. It's more like the fast-food, quick fix style of an attitude towards magic. All you do is look up a few spells, perhaps memorise them and voila magic occurs. But it's not that simple, of course ;)
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Couldn't agree more - it's a bit like (reputable) martial arts: you don't get to learn the "killer" blows until you're disciplined enough not to use them.
 
You are charged with being drunk and in charge of a functioning magickal method, whilst not in possession of a current licence to operate.

It'll be Azkaban for you, my lad! :eek:
 
It's like circle - there is no "point"

The first tenet that i've found to understand the concept of magic is to remember that (and i'm using a homo sapiens of average build here) your physical mass is about the size of a packet of twenty cigarettes, your atoms are not microscopic "ball bearings", around which further smaller "ball bearings" orbit, but rather a buttering of possibility, only existing in any given space when observed. Further to this the vast majority of your mass is moving at a significant portion of the speed of light.

Science/religion/magic are not divisible elements, to be taken in separation, but more our attempts to put events that have no explanation, within a framework of reference that we can understand.

It's a bit like (IMO) the mathematical concept of infinity. There is a theory that posits the universe itself is infinite, and this leads people to say things like "in that case star trek and star wars and jurassic park is real and happening somwhere". Unfortunately this is not the case, infinity is a tool, without which other areas of mathematics, especially those related to quanta and cosmology don't work so well. It does not mean everything that can happen is happening.

I do expect people to refute my example, but as i caveat'd at the beginning of my message "one guys opinion".

Be well.
 
Re: It's like circle - there is no "point"

TMS said:
It's a bit like (IMO) the mathematical concept of infinity. There is a theory that posits the universe itself is infinite, and this leads people to say things like "in that case star trek and star wars and jurassic park is real and happening somwhere". Unfortunately this is not the case, infinity is a tool, without which other areas of mathematics, especially those related to quanta and cosmology don't work so well. It does not mean everything that can happen is happening.
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You can have an infinite number of apples without getting a single orange. Or at least that's how it was explained to me.

What's your take on the Magical Thinking debate?
 
Magical Thinking debate

I'm not certain of what you meant by the magical thinking debate, but if i've taken your point correctly i think that (for all his faults), Crowley had the most intelligent thing to say about it. The anecdote about the two people on the train and the hatbox.

If that's not what you meant, please clarify for me and i'll give you my honest opinion...
 
Re: Re: Layers Upon Layers

AndroMan said:
But, supposing the 'Buffies' have a point? Perhaps the '5000 Spirits of the Layers of the Onion' are not really necessary and that what has to be conveyed about the nature of reality is really blindingly obvious and the rest is merely obfuscation?

Perhaps, the Buffettes are really just the entertainment industry's Alexander, come to chop through Gordion Knot that is our Can't Do society?
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To answer this more seriously, now that I'm not so grumpy --

First, if Buffyism / wishful thinking sufficed, we'd all be dead long since from some despairing teenager's depressive "hatred" of the "world" that was so "cruel" to him or her. lol

Second, we know it doesn't work. Wish for a hamburger but do nothing else to get one: Does it work? Nope.

One must take active steps. And to do this one must focus. What kind of hamburger do you want, how much is it, (both in money and in effort), where is it, how can you go about intersecting its with your locality, etc.

This shows why many waste their lives in wishful thinking, hoping, and waiting for their Big Break, or what ever, while others are more focused and go out and get what they genuinely want.

Knowing yourself and the world with as few delusions as possible helps immensely, as Magick teaches.

Focusing will is the key, and taking active steps to bring that focal point into reality.

Magick is will plus physics. It's that simple and obvious, and that difficult, all at the same time.

So while the Buffy type of thinking seems easier it is, in reality, a trap of delusion more suited for children than for practicing magicians.

Again, anyone who thinks this explanation is too easy is invited to go become, say, President of the USA, or a rich and famous Movie Star, or what have you. Attaining even the plainest and most garishly simplistic goals is not in any sense easy.

Study ego and learn to step beyond it. Study will and learn to focus it. To do these things one must study self and world clearly, without delusion. Anything less than clarity lessens one's realistic focus of will.
 
Definition of Magick & Will by Aleister Crowley from the introduction to Magick in Theory & Practice.

I) DEFINITION. Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will. (Illustration: It is my Will to inform the World of certain facts within my knowledge. I therefore take "magickal weapons", pen, ink, and paper; I write "incantations"---these sentences---in the "magickal language" ie, that which is understood by the people I wish to instruct; I call forth "spirits", such as printers, publishers, booksellers and so forth and constrain them to convey my message to those people. The composition and distribution of this book is thus an act of Magick by which I cause Changes to take place in conformity with my Will.) In one sense Magick may be defined as the name given to Science by the vulgar.
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http://sidereus.org/main/print.php?sid=74
 
If we go by Crowley's definition, "Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will ", it sounds as if just moving a pencil from one side of my table to the other is an act of magick.
 
FraterLibre said:
Another reason so many magickal systems are couched in recherché baroquisms is that they had to be encoded so Mother Church didn't come burn them at the stake, book or writer or both. It's best to encode.
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You'd think that given the coded allegories of Jesus, who suffered similar persecution in his time, the Church would be better clued in, huh? I often delight in pointing out that Jesus, by using these allegories to hide his message was in effect preaching an occult teaching to Christian Fundamentalists, but then I also like pointing out the uncomfortable number of similarities between Jesus and Satan to them as well.
 
I read through this thread and people get pretty heated about this stuff huh :0 I find it enjoyable to use the odd sigil or crystal.It does make me feel calmer or braver or whatever,which might be magick or might be placebo but who cares really if it’s fun and enriches your life 乁(ᴗ ͜ʖ ᴗ)ㄏ
 
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