MP's theory over cottage burnings

[ramonmercado]

MP's theory over cottage burnings

Meibion Glyndwr was linked to more than 200 fire bombings of property
A Plaid Cymru MP believes UK security services were involved in some arson attacks blamed on Welsh extremists.
It is 25 years since the start of 12 years of fire-bombings, attributed to a shadowy group known as Meibion Glyndwr.

Plaid Cymru's Elfyn Llwyd has suggested the security services could have been involved, with the intention of discrediting the nationalist vote.

Ex-Welsh Office Minister Lord Roberts of Conwy denied security services were involved.

In March this year, North Wales Police reopened the case, saying materials kept during their investigations would be examined to find whether it would yield DNA evidence.

"What I'm saying is that the role that they took wasn't the appropriate one - like an agent provocateur

Elfyn Llwyd MP

Meibion Glyndwr - which means "sons of Glyndwr" - began burning property in December 1979 in protest at homes in rural Wales being sold as holiday cottages to people from England.

The group was linked to most of the 220 or so fire-bombing incidents stretching from the Llyn Peninsula to Pembrokeshire. The campaign continued until the early 1990s.

Police were accused in some quarters of targeting anyone who was a nationalist. Although one man, Sion Aubrey Roberts, was convicted in 1993 of sending letter bombs in the post, the arson cases remain unsolved.


Detectives hope DNA evidence may still lead to arrests in the case

As a solicitor, Elfyn Llwyd represented Welsh singer Bryn Fôn when he was arrested on suspicion of being involved in the arson campaign. Fôn was released without charge .

But now, as MP for Merionnydd Nant Conwy and Plaid Cymru's Parliamentary Leader, Mr Llwyd has argued that some of the terror attacks may have had the involvement of the security services and not Meibion Glyndwr.

He believes that elements of the British security services may have carried out renegade actions in order to discredit Plaid Cymru and the nationalist vote ahead of elections.

The claim is made in an interview for BBC Wales' Maniffesto programme to be shown on S4C on Sunday.

Theory is questioned

Mr Llwyd said that the sophistication of many of the devices used in the attacks compared to the crude nature of many others, suggests a degree of professionalism which could only have come from individuals who knew exactly what they were doing.

He said: "What I'm saying is that the role that they took wasn't the appropriate one, i.e. like an agent provocateur and perhaps interfering and creating a situation where it looked like it was the nationalists that were responsible."

The programme also heard from Lord Roberts of Conwy, who was a Welsh Office minister at the time. He denied that the security services played any improper role.

"There was a rumour that, perhaps, whoever did the foul deed was also familiar with the police force, but I don't believe it," he added.

Mr Llwyd's theory has also been questioned by Plaid Cymru's former President, Dafydd Wigley.

He accepted that the fires damaged Plaid Cymru's public image but believed that the security services had their hands full at the time with the IRA and animal rights activists.


Maniffesto can be seen on S4C on Sunday, 12 December, at 1200 GMT.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4084013.stm

 

[Anonymous]

Ah, the joy of conspiracy bollocks... just sit in a any North Wales Pub and you shall find them... the only real cover up was that it was well known who was doing it by the local police. But who wanted NI on the UK mainland? hmm? Leave 'em alone, take 'em down quietly, and it'll die off. Last I heard it was more random beatings, vandalism and intimidation (2000-2003). Not to forget the sponsorship by the Welsh Office that protects 'Cultural Purityand Preservation'. Times change, people don't...

 

[MrSnowman]

Ah, the joy of conspiracy bollocks... just sit in a any North Wales Pub and you shall find them... the only real cover up was that it was well known who was doing it by the local police. But who wanted NI on the UK mainland? hmm? Leave 'em alone, take 'em down quietly, and it'll die off. Last I heard it was more random beatings, vandalism and intimidation (2000-2003). Not to forget the sponsorship by the Welsh Office that protects 'Cultural Purityand Preservation'. Times change, people don't...

Hmm.. I'd go easy on the random beatings and intimidation aspect. You are more likely to see vandalism in the form of nationalist graffiti on walls along various A and B roads the closer you get to Gwynedd.

It can be argued that Meibion Glyndwr, although misguided, were making a valid point (although ahead of their time). There is a sizeable proportion of doleys and druggies moving into N.Wales now. Now, if there was some kind of chance of economic benefit or rehabilitation resulting from the move that benefited the community, then it'd be all good and well. Unfortunately, there isn't really much in the way of job prospects for the unskilled in the region, and the rehab services structure long buckled under the weight of imports looking for 'smack by the seaside'. Don't let the voices of the Plaid types fool you into thinking that it's all about keeping Wales for the Welsh. Welsh Nash types have the loudest voices, but for all the wrong reasons. Most people back home are annoyed with the fact that there are people coming into the area who have no skills, cannot contribute to the community, have no intention of rectifying this, and go out of their way to make life hell for their new neighbours because they're 'big guns' fresh from the city, trying to make a name for themselves because there are no other controlling factors in the new area like an established 'tough' family to keep them under contol.

I see it whenever I go home, and this is the way it is. There you go. :nonplus:

 

[Stormkhan]

I can sympathise with "locals" getting bloody annoyed at either a) Wealthy yuppie types or b) Druggie/dole types moving into what was a nice rural area but there's a limit to how much isolationism you can stand. These are just two stereotypes of a wide range of "foreigners" who might want to move to the countryside. What about the parents who, having worked and saved good money, want the quiet life for their kids? What about the rich-type who wants to retire gracefully. What about the poorly paid guy who can't afford to live in the "big city" and is attracted by lower living costs to start a new life?

I can't help think that sometimes - just sometimes - nationalism is a "side" to be on, when the real problem is the country-wide problem of migration and expansion into rural areas. I can see rising values, irresponsible attitudes and arrogant spending annoying locals whose families have been there since the year dot but shoving national or cultural identity merely masks the overall issue.

I for one would dearly love to live in the country but in my personal circumstances mean I'd need to come into some seriously big money to achieve this. Once there, I'd love to become part of local society - being a regular in the pub D), helping out at social functions and so on. But how would being victimised and ostracised by locals with an axe to grind help me to integrate and be socially acceptable to them?

 

[Melf]

i think it also comes down to wether or not the "incomers" make a effort to learn the language aswell.

if they learn even a few words, theyll be accepted as a "local" a bit quicker (ok itll proberly take 2-3 generations instead of the usual 10 )

but im not going to get into a arugement about the pros & cons about moving to the welsh hinterlands

 

[Anonymous]

I see it whenever I go home, and this is the way it is. There you go. :|

To quote my favourite Vorlon... The truth is a three edged sword.

Since one can easily get into a Clanton-McCoy type exchange of anecdote, with both sides dealing with a the 'truth' that suits them, and blissfully ignoring the middle ground, I'd suggest we probably can't encounter the 'reality'.

something that did strike me... wouldn't it have made mroe sense for Meibion Glyndwr to have bombed out the people who SOLD to incomers as race traitors rather than the incomers, whose only real sin was to find the price of the people in the property? If one is going to whore, one shouldn't whine...

 

[MrSnowman]

I can sympathise with "locals" getting bloody annoyed at either a) Wealthy yuppie types or b) Druggie/dole types moving into what was a nice rural area but there's a limit to how much isolationism you can stand. These are just two stereotypes of a wide range of "foreigners" who might want to move to the countryside. What about the parents who, having worked and saved good money, want the quiet life for their kids? What about the rich-type who wants to retire gracefully. What about the poorly paid guy who can't afford to live in the "big city" and is attracted by lower living costs to start a new life?

I can't help think that sometimes - just sometimes - nationalism is a "side" to be on, when the real problem is the country-wide problem of migration and expansion into rural areas. I can see rising values, irresponsible attitudes and arrogant spending annoying locals whose families have been there since the year dot but shoving national or cultural identity merely masks the overall issue.

I for one would dearly love to live in the country but in my personal circumstances mean I'd need to come into some seriously big money to achieve this. Once there, I'd love to become part of local society - being a regular in the pub D), helping out at social functions and so on. But how would being victimised and ostracised by locals with an axe to grind help me to integrate and be socially acceptable to them?

Well, I think this is the misconception that a lot of people have which I tried to explain. Nobody has a problem with people coming into an area if their arrival is not going to cause any detrimental effects. The kind of person who won't speak English to the newcomer in town (regardless of whether they're a prince or pauper) is thankfully very rare these days; I truly do hate this kind of person, because if someone has a holiday in Wales and they come across this type of idiot, they generally remember them, and none of the other people who were just nice normal folk. If only there was a party other than Plaid who could espouse the opinion that, 'hey, you're all welcome, just as long as you're not here to take the mickey', because this would represent the view of the majority.

To quote my favourite Vorlon... The truth is a three edged sword.

Since one can easily get into a Clanton-McCoy type exchange of anecdote, with both sides dealing with a the 'truth' that suits them, and blissfully ignoring the middle ground, I'd suggest we probably can't encounter the 'reality'.

something that did strike me... wouldn't it have made mroe sense for Meibion Glyndwr to have bombed out the people who SOLD to incomers as race traitors rather than the incomers, whose only real sin was to find the price of the people in the property? If one is going to whore, one shouldn't whine...

Well, try living there for a few years, and you'll see what I mean. The dissolution of community in the coastal towns of N.Wales has been frightening over the past 15 years or so. Strangely, since a lot of the local councils started to refuse planning permission for big old houses to be converted into HMOs, there has been something of an improvement in community spirit.

What you have to realise is that in prisons in the north west, landlords advertise flats for rent in places like Colwyn Bay and Rhyl.. "come here for a new start".. ok, come to an area where there are no jobs and an established drug problem.. and they end up doing what they do, but in a small community where the effects of their actions will be more noticable than if they did what they did in a large city. In fairness, some of these people WILL make an effort, and these are the ones who are made to be welcome.

Take a week's holiday in Colwyn Bay anyway, and see what you think. I'd recommend the zoo and the smaller pubs.

 

[Anonymous]

So, is the ruination of Wales rich incomers or scummy ex-cons on drugs? Seems its both.. :hmm: Despite the amount of funding pumped into the Principality, and the overly protectionist Welsh Office things are falling a part? Sounds like a lot of the rest of the UK, just with more paint on the road, bigger road signs and a largely impotent assembly that interferes with education by adding a language when it has more pressing social problems...

And should the 'race traitors' be bombed rather than the incomers? :devil:

 

[ENTIANONMULTI]

one thing i do find ammusing is where the "English translation" on information signs is covered up, and this happens in a place (Abersoch) that over the years i have been going there seems to have turned into an upper middle class watersports destination.

 

[MrSnowman]

So, is the ruination of Wales rich incomers or scummy ex-cons on drugs? Seems its both.. :hmm: Despite the amount of funding pumped into the Principality, and the overly protectionist Welsh Office things are falling a part? Sounds like a lot of the rest of the UK, just with more paint on the road, bigger road signs and a largely impotent assembly that interferes with education by adding a language when it has more pressing social problems...

And should the 'race traitors' be bombed rather than the incomers? :devil:

The ruination is caused by people who move to the area for no good reason and have nothing to bring into the area except problems. As a percentage of people, I would say it's more likely to be druggies and dolies who bring these, although there will be some exceptions to this rule. Everything else you say is true. Wales has turned into a giant cash pot for certain parties with ulterior motives to dip into for various schemes and the like. One thing which really irks me is that the Welsh Development Agency get so much money from Europe, but have the rents set so high on commercial property that people who wish to bring development into whatever area are immediately put off. The Welsh Assembly was one of the worse things that could have happened to Wales. Ok, beforehand, we had to put up with comedy acts like Redwood, but at least there was accountability. It's amazing that some of the old quangos are still in existence, as the Assembly deemed them to be worthwhile, whereas we all know that they're another drain on funds that could be better spent redeveloping communities.

And erm... fire bombing the race traitors? That's ludicrous, and I would have thought better of you than to suggest such a simplistic and brutal solution Hugo. It's clear that they just need to be force fed lard until it seeps from their pores, and then used as human candles in some weird ceremony.. or something.

Entia >

We go to Abersoch every year, and it certainly has changed from when I was little! Some of those shabby old grey council houses are worth hundreds of thousands these days. It's a lovely place all the same though.

 

[meanderer1]

And should the 'race traitors' be bombed rather than the incomers? :devil:

Although I can see you are playing devil's advocate Hugo and don't really mean what you say, I'm sure that even you must agree that nobody should ever be either bombed or hounded from their homes in anyway. However the underlying problem of young people being unable to afford to continue living in places near the rest of their familes (and I know this happens in parts of England too) is a real one. Without young people communities die, schools close, village shops shut, pubs get turned into hostels etc. If the people who protested against this have managed to change planning policy so that afforable housing is built in areas where the cost of a holiday home is prohibitive then some good did come out of the protests.

i know, without a doubt, that you will shoot me down in flames and say that no concessions should be made to a country that spends money to keep a dying language alive when it has other needs but IMHO there are some parts of an ancient culture that should be preserved otherwise great things will be lost and we will all become identical featureless boring english-speaking clones. (Apparently a third of the world's population will speak english within the next 20 years)

 

[Anonymous]

Ah the ancient culture myth... genetically most Welsh are Britons who were driven over Offa's Dyke and wiped out or otherwise supplanted the indigenous peoples.

It's how humanity seems to work.

As to the underlying problem.... who sold whom out? The incomers or the one's who sold?

And as to preservation... the glory that was Rome is preserved because its dead... we embalm dead things....

 

[meanderer1]

Ah the ancient culture myth... genetically most Welsh are Britons who were driven over Offa's Dyke and wiped out or otherwise supplanted the indigenous peoples.

It's how humanity seems to work.

As to the underlying problem.... who sold whom out? The incomers or the one's who sold?

And as to preservation... the glory that was Rome is preserved because its dead... we embalm dead things....

Right, so because humanity works that way we should just accept all that 'humanity' does? No chance of a change? No vague possibilty of learning from our mistakes? That's the way its always been done ergo ...?

OK then do away with Shakespeare's verse and have it quoted in 'estuary english'.

And as to the 'underlying problem' - as you have so often said - to the victors, the spoils and to hell with the innocent.

 

[Anonymous]

The Judas complex is so ugly... after all who did find their price? The Buyers or the Sellers?

In the end, the ones WITH the 30 pieces of silver must look to their own consciences... if it was worth saving they shouldn't have sold it out... Humanity works by greed, in what ever frock you care to dress it in. I am not saying its right, simply we choose our own damnation. If we can't deal then look in askance at the people who sold their heritage, not the ones who bought it by the foot.

Being a victim is so very, very, easy....

 

[escargot]

I used to send greetings cards to imprisoned Welsh 'home heating experts' because I agree with what they stand for.

(Prisoners can't receive post without a return name and address so I imagine that I'm on some MI5 watchlists.)

As the British security forces were certainly involved in crime in northern Ireland I have little trouble believing that similar things happened in Wales.

 

[Anonymous]

And they stand for what? Enlighten me...

 

[ENTIANONMULTI]

And they stand for what? Enlighten me...

cheap light and heating
coat please...

 

[Anonymous]

Entia,

The 'Sky Captain' style one? Or the singed 1970's parka with rabbit fur trim hood?

 

[stu neville]

Take a week's holiday in Colwyn Bay anyway, and see what you think. I'd recommend the zoo and the smaller pubs.

My in-laws (originally from Lancashire) lived in Rhos-On-Sea, between Colwyn Bay and Llandudno, for 20 years, and certainly the estate on whch they lived was populated by predominantly Lancs and Merseyside ex-pats.

It is a lovely part of the world, and I totally agree the smaller pubs are great - even with a Bristol accent (which in Cardiff or Swansea prompts pitchforks, blazing torches and besieged windmills) was met with a friendly greeting. Only time I came across the "speaking-English-til-you-arrived-then-switched-to-Welsh" scenario was on Anglesey, but even then the bar staff and many of the locals continued to speak English and were pleasant enough .

Did the security services engage in dirty tricks in North Wales? Would surprise me if they didn't.

 

[Anonymous]

Since that was what the Security Service did in the 70's by and large I would have thought it was a given. ( a lot of the probable dirty tricks guys died in the Helicopter Crash in Scotland a few years ago. NI was always more fun I'm told...)

However, they have never created movements, merely infiltrated what was there.

Complete side-bar: Rhys Ifans, in an interesting interview with the local Welsh paper, heavily implied his involvement with torching houses. So... Notting Hill Actor - MI6 patsy or Freedom Fighter?

 

[stu neville]

Complete side-bar: Rhys Ifans, in an interesting interview with the local Welsh paper, heavily implied his involvement with torching houses. So... Notting Hill Actor - MI6 patsy or Freedom Fighter?

The man is playing my total hero, Peter Cook, over the holidays on Channel Four. As Cook had an interest in the cottage burning saga (having written many of the Private Eye one-liners about the subject), I wonder if they'll bring this up?

 

[Anonymous]

Having seen the promo stuff on Jonathan Ross, he looks and sounds the part very well...

At the risk of seeming OCD... I've not been enlightened

 

[Anonymous]

http://groups.msn.com/WelshRepublicanComment/glyndwr.msnw

Quite an interesting article

Now the former head of North Wales CID Gareth Jones has told BBC Wales' Taro Naw programme that some officers in the force, but who were outside the unit investigating the arsonists, supported the actions of Meibion Glyndwr. If Mr Jones suspected that some officers had "perverted the course of justice" then his complaints should have been made at the appropriate time, not to Taro television programme to advertise his seedy book. Further, could it be that this man was acting out his racism against patriotic Cymraeg Speaking Officers?

http://www.welshdragon.net/resources/Articles/arson.shtml

has some moments that are amusing.... and casts some doubt about Meibion Glyndwr


http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/wales/3497762.stm

A personal favourite of mine

 

[Yithian]

this happens in a place (Abersoch) that over the years i have been going there seems to have turned into an upper middle class watersports destination.

Oh, one of those places. Not really my cup of tea.

( a lot of the probable dirty tricks guys died in the Helicopter Crash in Scotland a few years ago. NI was always more fun I'm told...)

Got a source for that Hugo?

I mean on you can cite of course.

 

[Anonymous]

Beyond a drunken night with some old mates, not really. IIRC, Computing or Computer Weekly carried a lot of stuff about the software...

The rest is rumour at best... there were hardliners on both sides of the NI thing, and some of the white hats were not that white.

On the thread...sufficed to say, some of the Young Turks of NI had to have cut their teeth somewhere...

 

[Anonymous]

a lot of the probable dirty tricks guys died in the Helicopter Crash in Scotland a few years ago

I'm not one for conspiracies in general. But the details of that accident still seem remarkable.

It just seemed such a convenient drawing of a line ahead of a peace process. The people who ran the informants and the counter informants. Removed from the equation in one afternoon and no chance of them coming back to make problems.

I suppose that a cynic might wonder whether the whole debate about pilot error vs navigational failure would have been a diversion.

 

[Yithian]

To refresh memories and inform others:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1800804.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1800727.stm

Facts as they are publically 'known'.

The crash posed some embarrassing questions - such as why the UK's top anti-terrorist personnel flew together.

Is it only me or does the BBC's charming and characteristic knack for understatement sometimes come across - to the more circumspect - as a masked form of ironic deconstruction?

Edit, I mean to say: If anybody but good old auntie printed that it would be considered trite and simplistsic but i read it as saying: Do you not think this is dodgy as hell? - We do - of course, we're not saying that - in fact we're not saying anything apart from what you've just read... move along there...

 

[Anonymous]

As I said... hardliners and fanatics on both sides

 

[Anonymous]

One has to love a good, balanced argument

 

[Mal_Adjusted]

Hi

as an incomer in rural west wales i'll be keeping well out of this discussion. One never knows who might be reading it.

Mal