'Murder Houses': How Does Violence Impact Sale Prices?

[maximus otter]

As the ongoing fascination with “true crime” entertainment continues, so too does the fascination with homes where insidious events went down. The owners of a home in Westfield, New Jersey, are currently dealing with an influx of visitors after Netflix’s “The Watcher” — which chronicles a series of threatening letters the then-owners received in 2014 — became a streaming hit.

“The Watcher,” created by “Monster: The Jeffrey Dahmer Story” maestro Ryan Murphy, doesn’t deal with murder. But it’s not out of the realm of possibility that its new notoriety could impact anyone considering living there in the future. As data and experts show, crime — but particularly murder — can make a big dent in property values.

Often called “murder houses,” these homes are also known as “stigmatized properties” by the National Association of Realtors. Stigmatized properties include places that have been impacted by events such as murder, suicide, a notorious previous owner, and alleged occurrences like hauntings.

California real estate agent Dr. Randall Bell is a self-described “Master of Disaster” who has helped sell some of the most noted stigmatized properties in the U.S., including the previous homes of Nicole Brown Simpson and John and Patsy Ramsey.

In an interview, Bell explained that sellers of “tainted” properties can expect a “15 to 25% diminution in value for two to three years after the fact. Over time the discount evaporates, but it takes 10 to 25 years for the stigma to go away entirely.”

Bell’s data is echoed by that found by Realtor, using public data sourced by DiedInHouse.com, a website that uses property records to tell users whether someone died at a specific address. Data shows “murder houses” sell for a median 21% less than their previous sale price and 9% less than the list price. These properties also sell for 15% less than comparable houses in the same zip code.

https://thehill.com/homenews/3699660-murder-houses-how-does-violence-impact-sale-prices/

maximus otter

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

As the ongoing fascination with “true crime” entertainment continues, so too does the fascination with homes where insidious events went down. The owners of a home in Westfield, New Jersey, are currently dealing with an influx of visitors after Netflix’s “The Watcher” — which chronicles a series of threatening letters the then-owners received in 2014 — became a streaming hit.

“The Watcher,” created by “Monster: The Jeffrey Dahmer Story” maestro Ryan Murphy, doesn’t deal with murder. But it’s not out of the realm of possibility that its new notoriety could impact anyone considering living there in the future. As data and experts show, crime — but particularly murder — can make a big dent in property values.

Often called “murder houses,” these homes are also known as “stigmatized properties” by the National Association of Realtors. Stigmatized properties include places that have been impacted by events such as murder, suicide, a notorious previous owner, and alleged occurrences like hauntings.

California real estate agent Dr. Randall Bell is a self-described “Master of Disaster” who has helped sell some of the most noted stigmatized properties in the U.S., including the previous homes of Nicole Brown Simpson and John and Patsy Ramsey.

In an interview, Bell explained that sellers of “tainted” properties can expect a “15 to 25% diminution in value for two to three years after the fact. Over time the discount evaporates, but it takes 10 to 25 years for the stigma to go away entirely.”

Bell’s data is echoed by that found by Realtor, using public data sourced by DiedInHouse.com, a website that uses property records to tell users whether someone died at a specific address. Data shows “murder houses” sell for a median 21% less than their previous sale price and 9% less than the list price. These properties also sell for 15% less than comparable houses in the same zip code.

https://thehill.com/homenews/3699660-murder-houses-how-does-violence-impact-sale-prices/

maximus otter

I vaguely recall the same response to houses in which someone who died of AIDS had lived. No idea if its still true. In the US, publicly-listed properties must have a document signed by the owners/sellers which states that they did or did not know of murders, major crimes, meth cooking, etc. which took place at that property. I always got the meth-cooking residue test for any property I was interested in buying.

 

[Sgt Girth]

I haven’t been back to Dundee for years but, to the best of my knowledge, the infamous Dundee murder house is still unoccupied…. https://scottishmurders.com/episodes/roseangle/

There were some plans (quite unsuitable in my opinion ) to convert the property into some kind of restaurant or bar….which fell by the wayside. I’m amazed that no one has bought out the developer and renovated it in a far more sympathetic manner.

It’s obviously suffered over the years but still displays some interesting interior features… https://canmore.org.uk/site/185740/dundee-2-roseangle

Maybe it’s history and rather sad condition is just too much to take on board….although there’s probably plenty of folk who wouldn’t think twice about living in a house with such a grim history……

 

[Bigphoot2]

I haven’t been back to Dundee for years but, to the best of my knowledge, the infamous Dundee murder house is still unoccupied…. https://scottishmurders.com/episodes/roseangle/

There were some plans (quite unsuitable in my opinion ) to convert the property into some kind of restaurant or bar….which fell by the wayside. I’m amazed that no one has bought out the developer and renovated it in a far more sympathetic manner.

It’s obviously suffered over the years but still displays some interesting interior features… https://canmore.org.uk/site/185740/dundee-2-roseangle

Maybe it’s history and rather sad condition is just too much to take on board….although there’s probably plenty of folk who wouldn’t think twice about living in a house with such a grim history……

I used to work not far from that house and over the years there have been all sorts of plans for it - student accommodation, offices etc but they've all fallen through at various stages. It's quite a depressing place to see, even on a good day.

 

[Spookdaddy]

I thought we might have a duplicate thread - but on having a bumble around the forum I suspect I was thinking of the
Visiting Crime Scenes thread. That said, there may be some crossover in interest.

I've always suspected that economics and pragmatism will eventually trump any allegedly distasteful history in regard to a property. The percentage drop in value reflects the overall volume of interest, but in the case of individual purchasers, it's purely a matter of leverage - I mean, a house's history doesn't become 20% less spooky, because you got 20% off the asking price.

I haven’t been back to Dundee for years but, to the best of my knowledge, the infamous Dundee murder house is still unoccupied….

I wonder if the reason some 'murder' houses fall into disuse, rather that being about the alleged unwillingness of people to settle there, is actually down, or at least partly due to, the more practical subject of probate issues, or other legal problems based around ownership - after the owners have been horribly murdered, or banged up for horribly murdering someone else.

Many towns have that odd neglected and long unoccupied building - even in quite salubrious and expensive areas. The apparent inexplicability of such economic negligence often leads to dark tales - whereas, boringly, the issue often seems to boil down to long standing problems with probate, and labyrinthine puzzles around leasehold and other legalities associated with property ownership. (This is definitely the case with a couple in my own town, and one potentially extremely expensive property I used to walk past every day when working in London. Mind you, they really do now look like places you might get murdered should you walk through the front door - if, indeed, they still have one.)

 

[GerdaWordyer]

Some states and municipalities require sellers to disclose if a house has been the site of a murder or disaster, but we didn't think of asking about such things when we bought our first house in 1984. A few days after moving in. a creepy old neighbor gleefully (see, I said creepy) told us that an old guy had been strangled in it and not found for days. Luckily, we must be un-sensitive; we had no weird experiences in our six years there.
So no effect on price and happily no effects on us.

 

[Coal]

Some states and municipalities require sellers to disclose if a house has been the site of a murder or disaster, but we didn't think of asking about such things when we bought our first house in 1984. A few days after moving in. a creepy old neighbor gleefully (see, I said creepy) told us that an old guy had been strangled in it and not found for days. Luckily, we must be un-sensitive; we had no weird experiences in our six years there.
So no effect on price and happily no effects on us.

I'd have thought almost any dwelling over a certain age would have had deaths in it at some point, natural or 'induced'.

 

[catseye]

I'd have thought almost any dwelling over a certain age would have had deaths in it at some point, natural or 'induced'.

That is what I always say. Britain being so small, occupied for so long and with so many old houses - taking into account that, until recently, it was normal to die at home.... there can't be many places that haven't seen death of one form or another.

My mum and dad both died (separately, and of old age) in our family home. It still sold almost overnight and is now student housing.

 

[Schrodinger's Zebra]

I hate to see the destruction of old, beautiful buildings for any reason, and the concept of demolishing them just because a murder or other bad crime took place just seems ludicrous to me.

 

[Spookdaddy]

I hate to see the destruction of old, beautiful buildings for any reason, and the concept of demolishing them just because a murder or other bad crime took place just seems ludicrous to me.

I think demolition in such cases happens very rarely, at least in the UK. I can think of Huntley's Soham residence, the Philpott house in Derby, and, of course, Fred and Rose West's kip in Gloucester - none of which were of any architectural or historical note (and the latter was probably about to fall down anyway).

I have a feeling - although I can't back it up in any solid way - that demolition of unhappy houses may be more common in the US. But I suspect that, if this is true, it would be at least partly down to the fact that timber frame properties - much more common in the US - are easier to bulldoze, and cheaper to replace, than would be the case with the stone built type more common in the UK.

I can't think of any historic building - old and beautiful or not - that's been razed for such a reason. To be honest, if we had any tradition of demolishing old buildings associated with murder then I suspect the UK's various heritage conservation charities would have much smaller property portfolios.

 

[Spookdaddy]

Just out of interest, and because I woke insanely early, I picked the first three historical murders my pre-first coffee of the day memory could rustle up at random this morning - trying to recall ones which I felt were associated with particular properties. Then I checked to see how those buildings had fared over the years

Rattenbury/Stoner. (Classic 1930’s British domestic murder case, very famous trial; I doubt there are many locals, and virtually no-one in the UK with the least interest in classic cases, who would be unaware of the story.) Madeira Villa - the same building, but now plain old 5 Manor Road, Bournemouth. Currently valued online at £368 000. Last sold 2012 at £210 000. Not the most valuable property in the postcode, but not far off.

The Merrifield's. (Poisoning case from the 1950’s. Mrs Merrifield was the last woman to be hanged at Strangeways. Case was infamous at the time: for the relationship between victim and her supposed carers, the devious nature of the individuals involved, the suspicion – never proved – that she may have killed before, and, I suspect, because poisoning already seemed something of an anachronism from the Victorian age. Oh, and her husband became a fairground attraction!) 339 Devonshire Road, Blackpool. Currently valued online at £196 000 (last sold 2014 at £150 000).

The Merrett Murder. 31 Buckingham Terrace, Edinburgh. (A case from 1920’s Edinburgh and widely reported on at the time – at least partly because it was covered by William Roughead. Not so well known these days, Roughead was once a household name with world renown - a pioneer of what we would now call the True Crime genre, beloved of authors from Dorothy L Sayers to Henry James.) I’m pretty sure the locus for this case was the ground floor property, which now retails at a bargain basement price of 1.1 million. (And I would happily live in this one, even if I had to mop the blood up myself – and, of course, I had 1.1 million to hand.)

On a tangent to the last example. I’ve heard of at least one alleged haunting at an unnamed address on Buckingham Terrace, but I seem to recall it was centred on an upper floor, and long predates the Merrett case. Also, the old Learmonth Hotel – the other side of Queensferry Road (in fact, virtually opposite number 31), and now a Travelodge - is allegedly haunted. I’ve actually stayed there once, and I have to say, as someone who’s kipped in more than my fair share of budget hotels, and is largely indifferent to their shortcomings, it did actually seem to me to have a particularly bleak and depressing atmosphere.

 

[brownmane]

Off the top of my head, I can name two houses demolished after the residents were involved in multiple murders - John Wayne Gacy (US) and Karla Holmolka/Paul Bernardo (Canada). Both of these examples involved murders of children and teens.

 

[Jepra Peld]

Dinham Villa in Rainhill (my home town) where Frederick Bailey Deeming murdered his wife and 5 children was demolished shortly after their bodies were found there in 1892.

 

[Spookdaddy]

Dinham Villa in Rainhill (my home town) where Frederick Bailey Deeming murdered his wife and 5 children was demolished shortly after their bodies were found there in 1892.

The rare examples where demolition has taken place do seem to indicate that the murder of children/young people - especially in the multiple - are the exception that proves the rule. Aside from the fact that it's just a horrible thing to think about, I wonder if there's something of an ancient anxiety also going on; historically speaking, child sacrifice was seen as an extremely powerful tool by some societies, and I wonder if there's a residual fear within our psyches that an unwanted power remains after such a killing. Poisoned Victorian spouse, domestic stabbing...meh! But, touch the children and the power will bear right down on you.

 

[GerdaWordyer]

Wasn't the area around 10 Rillington Place redone? Not just the building. but some nearby roads?

 

[Spookdaddy]

Wasn't the area around 10 Rillington Place redone? Not just the building. but some nearby roads?

I think it was renamed, rather than demolished - which happened quite a while later, as part of a planned regeneration project.

I have a vague memory of reading it was turned into meeting rooms for an ecclesiastical body, which would be ironic - but I've absolutely no idea what the source of that possible memory is, so I'll have to check.

...Also, the old Learmonth Hotel – the other side of Queensferry Road (in fact, virtually opposite number 31), and now a Travelodge - is allegedly haunted. I’ve actually stayed there once, and I have to say, as someone who’s kipped in more than my fair share of budget hotels, and is largely indifferent to their shortcomings, it did actually seem to me to have a particularly bleak and depressing atmosphere.

As a point of order. I've just found out that this Travelodge is now permanently closed - so no ghost hunts for now.

 

[Spookdaddy]

...I have a vague memory of reading it was turned into meeting rooms for an ecclesiastical body, which would be ironic - but I've absolutely no idea what the source of that possible memory is, so I'll have to check...

The London Encyclopaedia notes the street name change (1950 something) and the later demolition (early 1970s, I think) – but no reference to that extra element. The writer of London lore and history, Ed Glinert, has an eye for such juicy detail, but I can’t find that he references meeting rooms either.

I was starting to give this up as a false memory, but just came across the following reference on The Underground Map, here:

…After the road was renamed, 10 Ruston Close was converted into a series of meeting rooms for the Methodist Church…

(10 Rillington place became 10 Ruston Close - same house, different label).

That’s not the source of my memory – and it may, of course, not be true – but clearly it’s out there somewhere as a thing; maybe even just as local lore.

 

[catseye]

Also, when you consider how much housing in the UK is terraced - much harder to demolish a 'murder house' if it's in the middle of a run of terraces. Not so bad if it's a detached or semi detached house, but number 15 in a run of 30 houses isn't going to be a quick job. Far easier to refurbish and rename or renumber.

 

[maximus otter]

Wasn't the area around 10 Rillington Place redone? Not just the building. but some nearby roads?

Yes:

https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...rs-unnoticed-deaths.68339/page-8#post-2152068

maximus otter

 

[Yithian]

Wasn't the area around 10 Rillington Place redone? Not just the building. but some nearby roads?

25 Cromwell Street was demolishes to, wasn't it?

 

[Spookdaddy]

In The London Compendium, Ed Glinert states:

Rillington Place, which had been renamed Ruston Close in the late 1950's, was demolished in the 1970s and rebuilt as Bartle Road. There is no longer a property at No 10, just a garden between the modern-day Nos. 9 and 11.

The properties which stand on the site now look like a yet more recent development to me, and it's really quite interesting if Glinert is correct (and a quick bumble along the road via Street View suggests it is). This would mean that – unless this is just some planning glitch – then, despite the house survived as a physical thing, and a numbered entity, for at least a couple of decades, before being swept away during mass regeneration of the area, it’s infamy has finally erased even the idea of a number 10, many decades after the fact.

This reminds me of something Peter Ackroyd mentions in London - The Biography - the idea that a history that appears completely forgotten, and/or subsumed into the sheer massiveness of London as a process, can suddenly, sometimes spontaneously and for no obvious reason, reappear within that process.

Well, either that, or it really is just a planning mistake, rather than part of a psychogeographical process. Which would be kind of disappointing.

Edit: Actually, there is a Number 10 - I've just spotted that it's the basement of Number 11. Ah, well - it was a nice idea while it lasted.

 

[Floyd]

25 Cromwell Street was demolishes to, wasn't it?

Yes. Just a patch of grass now iirc.

 

[Dick Turpin]

In The London Compendium, Ed Glinert states:



The properties which stand on the site now look like a yet more recent development to me, and it's really quite interesting if Glinert is correct (and a quick bumble along the road via Street View suggests it is). This would mean that – unless this is just some planning glitch – then, despite the house survived as a physical thing, and a numbered entity, for at least a couple of decades, before being swept away during mass regeneration of the area, it’s infamy has finally erased even the idea of a number 10, many decades after the fact.

This reminds me of something Peter Ackroyd mentions in London - The Biography - the idea that a history that appears completely forgotten, and/or subsumed into the sheer massiveness of London as a process, can suddenly, sometimes spontaneously and for no obvious reason, reappear within that process.

Well, either that, or it really is just a planning mistake, rather than part of a psychogeographical process. Which would be kind of disappointing.

Edit: Actually, there is a Number 10 - I've just spotted that it's the basement of Number 11. Ah, well - it was a nice idea while it lasted.

I once won a 50 quid bet with a workmate on which district Rillington place was in.

My mate reckoned Islington, and was so sure that it was, it was he that suggested the bet.

I should have upped the stake to 100 quid lol

 

[hunck]

I once won a 50 quid bet with a workmate on which district Rillington place was in.

My mate reckoned Islington, and was so sure that it was, it was he that suggested the bet.

I should have upped the stake to 100 quid lol

He may’ve been thinking of Crippen, whose house in Hilldrop Crescent was in Islington. Also since demolished.

His wife’s remains were found buried in the basement & he was subsequently convicted & hung but according to

http://knowledgeoflondon.com/crippen.html

Recently for the first time, files have been opened to the public. Forensic investigations have revealed from DNA samples of surviving flesh tissues still held at The Royal London Hospital, Whitechapel. These seem to reveal the remains from the cellar of 39 Hilldrop Crescent, were of a male, without genetic traces of the same family gene.

 

[DougalLongfoot]

My father was a real estate agent and I remember he once had to sell a house in which somebody had been stabbed to death. I can't recall whether the price was affected, but I do have a vague memory of him getting annoyed with people wanting to inspect the property out of ghoulish curiosity rather than a genuine intention to buy.

 

[Spookdaddy]

I once won a 50 quid bet with a workmate on which district Rillington place was in.

My mate reckoned Islington, and was so sure that it was, it was he that suggested the bet.

I should have upped the stake to 100 quid lol

Off the mark geographically - although the staggering turnaround in each areas fortunes over the decades is probably quite similar. If anything, I’ve always found that certain areas of west London had, at one time, a particularly desperate grimness which outdid the East End and those areas of south London which have – or had - a similar reputation.

Anyway, suffering as I am from another bout of the four o’clock horses, and being awake insanely early yet again, I did the logical thing in such situations and started poring over maps looking for the traces of a murderer.

Something was nagging me about Ed Glinert’s description of the 10 Rillington Place site, and after comparing maps, I realised what it was.
Although there is in fact still a modern property numbered 10 on Bartle Road/Ruston Close/Rillington Place, there's a garden gap between the building that houses it and the next number down. There being no other such gaps along this relatively recently developed road it’s tempting, as I think Glinert does (and I think some locals also do), to assume that this patch has been left bare because of the history of the building that was once there.

The problem is that although Bartle Road is a direct descendent of Rillington Place/Ruston Close, it doesn’t actually quite follow the same line, being roughly the road’s width further north (under what would have been the older road's northern terrace), and not angling as south westerly as the earlier road.

For what it’s worth, by my reckoning the footprint of the infamous address now sits under a much later development at the further (south) side of that open space:

Edited for schoolboy level spelling error.

 

[Spookdaddy]

My father was a real estate agent and I remember he once had to sell a house in which somebody had been stabbed to death. I can't recall whether the price was affected, but I do have a vague memory of him getting annoyed with people wanting to inspect the property out of ghoulish curiosity rather than a genuine intention to buy.

My brother's partner used to manage the letting side of a local estate agent's. She reckoned it was suicides associated with a property that people who were bothered about that sort of thing enough to mention it were most bothered about. (Erm, I think that makes sense).

In fact, now I think about it, she tells of one particularly disconcerting moment in just such a place - but that's probably for another thread.

 

[catseye]

There was a house up for rent quite close to us, my friend (who was looking to rent at the time) investigated it.

She said it wasn't the fact that a man murdered his wife with a shotgun and then killed himself in the shed, it was the fact that the place was so isolated that any funny noises would start you thinking, that put her off.

 

[ChrisBoardman]

In the UK it is fairly normal for such houses to get demolished. The houses where Tia Sharp, April Jones and Holly and Jessica were murdered were all demolished.

 

[sherbetbizarre]

My father was a real estate agent and I remember he once had to sell a house in which somebody had been stabbed to death. I can't recall whether the price was affected, but I do have a vague memory of him getting annoyed with people wanting to inspect the property out of ghoulish curiosity rather than a genuine intention to buy.

What gave it away? "Which room did the murder happen in?"