Not As Environmentally Friendly As Promised

Stormkhan

Disturbingly familiar
Joined
May 28, 2003
Messages
4,760
Reaction score
2,155
Points
189
Ah but are the 'vexatious complaints' coming from honest, but deluded, folk or those who might - just might - have a financial interest to have the plans blocked or wrecked?
Yep, the NIMBY is alive but, frankly, isn't such objections open to abuse? Combined with the recent 'malleable' planning applications (i.e. local councils are *ahem* encouraged to approve big money developments) the system is obviously not only open to corruption but actually going against the raison d'etre?
I mean, you should have to get planning permission to balance your eyesore faux castle you've had your eye on since you were paid gazillions as a senior Cabinet Minister/Premiership Football Player. But the same rules should be applied when you have ownership of land, in the middle of nowhere and you want to build a bloody bungalow on it.
 

catseye

Old lady trouser-smell
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
3,158
Reaction score
10,681
Points
224
Location
York
It may be so environmentally friendly it runs on the tears of squirrels but in the end
for every action there's a equal and opposite reaction.
But will they poke the squirrels to obtain those tears in an environmentally friendly way?

People tend to forget that it's not just the end use that ought to be environmentally aware, but all the steps in the process to produce.
 

Souleater

I'm not a cat
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
4,679
Reaction score
8,192
Points
208
But will they poke the squirrels to obtain those tears in an environmentally friendly way?

People tend to forget that it's not just the end use that ought to be environmentally aware, but all the steps in the process to produce.
Like electric cars, where does the electricity come from? (Clue: its not the electricity fairies) and how much does it cost the enviroment to produce all the batteries?
 

Stormkhan

Disturbingly familiar
Joined
May 28, 2003
Messages
4,760
Reaction score
2,155
Points
189
I see it as a pay-off.
Yeah, nothing is really eco-friendly.
But you do what you can. It doesn't hurt, all makes a difference etc.
I may not live to see the death of Earth's parasites, I may not live to see a recovery ... but if I can do any little thing to stop the process, I will. I aint perfect, I can always do more. But at least I am concerned and I tried.
I can live with myself; at least I tried.
 

Trevp666

It was like that when I got here.........honest!!!
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
4,360
Reaction score
11,427
Points
224
Location
Welwyn Garden City (but oddly, not an actual city)
This article on the BBC news site gives an idea of the scale of the problem with the batteries from electric cars.
It looks like we are heading towards a new environmental crisis in ......ooh.....I would say about 15 years, once all the car companies are being prevented from selling cars with combustion engines.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779
 

bugmum

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
736
Reaction score
2,296
Points
169
I always wonder when cycle lanes get installed and the local council says it is done to 'encourage cycling'.
No it isn't though, is it? It's done to 'discourage driving' really.
I don't know of anybody, ever, who has said "Ooh, they've spent millions putting in 12 miles of cycle lanes between here and where I work so I'm going to stop driving to work and cycle instead".
And if anyone has said that then they must live somewhere really rather flat, with not a lot of heavy traffic anyway, and then only when the weather is kind enough to allow it.
I really don't think installing special cycle lanes is as environmentally sound as it appears to be - it can cost millions for not much usage ultimately. The ones which are just a bit of painted lines on an existing road are going to be much more sound than specially built ones next to a road, except for in areas where there is a significant amount of cyclists already (like Cambridge).

Exeter can go one better - they made a number of roads into the city one-way or cycle-only during the first lockdown, and I swear the notice on one of them refers to social distancing!
In fairness, there are more cycles around town these days, and the cycle racks outside our building are generally full. But I still wonder why they took those decisions on road usage "because of Covid-19"; the traffic is beginning to build up again as things are opening up.
 

Krepostnoi

Confronting the challenge of porcine fragility
Joined
Jul 9, 2012
Messages
3,914
Reaction score
8,582
Points
214
Like electric cars, where does the electricity come from? (Clue: its not the electricity fairies) and how much does it cost the enviroment to produce all the batteries?
Yeah, although a big advantage of electric vehicles is the consequent improvement in urban air quality.

Also, solar energy is reducing in cost way quicker than experts predicted.

Also, fossil fuel extraction is hardly environmentally friendly. It's just been the norm for the past couple of centuries or so.
 

Souleater

I'm not a cat
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
4,679
Reaction score
8,192
Points
208
Yeah, although a big advantage of electric vehicles is the consequent improvement in urban air quality.

Also, solar energy is reducing in cost way quicker than experts predicted.

Also, fossil fuel extraction is hardly environmentally friendly. It's just been the norm for the past couple of centuries or so.
Renewable energy only make up around 30% of the UKs electricity output.

https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/energy-industry/renewable-generation.html

And under 20% of the US electricity.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=92&t=4

Howeve4 i do agree that electric cars msy improve urban emissions.
 

GNC

King-Sized Canary
Joined
Aug 25, 2001
Messages
32,347
Reaction score
20,110
Points
314
This has been in the news before, but maybe people will listen this time:
News story

Turkey is becoming the plastic waste dumping ground of Europe. The UK has seen 40% of its supposedly recyclable plastic waste dumped and even burned there. Makes you wonder why we bother with those wheelie bins at all.
 

Souleater

I'm not a cat
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
4,679
Reaction score
8,192
Points
208
This has been in the news before, but maybe people will listen this time:
News story

Turkey is becoming the plastic waste dumping ground of Europe. The UK has seen 40% of its supposedly recyclable plastic waste dumped and even burned there. Makes you wonder why we bother with those wheelie bins at all.
I think the problem is not at our end, i remember a similar story a couple of years ago about our 'recyclable waste turning up in a county somewhere in the far east. I think it is being shipped in good faith but someone somewhere along the line is not holding up their end of the deal, so it ends up being dumped or burned because it a cheaper way of disposing with it that what they are being paid to do, recycle it. Someone somewhere is making a lot of money.
 

Trevp666

It was like that when I got here.........honest!!!
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
4,360
Reaction score
11,427
Points
224
Location
Welwyn Garden City (but oddly, not an actual city)
Makes you wonder why we bother with those wheelie bins at all.

It's because the local councils were obliged to send less stuff to landfill, and so in order to do that, encouraged 'recycling' and provided their townsfolk with all sorts of various ways of separating stuff out into different containers. The general public believe that this is a good thing (well, it is, 'on paper'), but are not knowledgeable enough to realise it's basically all a scam.
So okay, less stuff goes to landfill (at least landfill here in the UK) but only a small percentage of the stuff 'we' think gets recycled actually does.
But like with most things, when Mr and Mrs Jones are washing out their yoghurt cartons, or putting all their cardboard and paper into a separate bin, they think they're doing the right thing. And in essence, they are, but unfortunately mostly the plastics either can't or won't be recycled, usually getting compressed into bales to fill otherwise empty shipping containers and sent back to China (eg).
And the card and paper, some gets actually pulped and reused but that would only be the stuff that is of a good enough 'clean' quality to begin with - the rest is compressed into 'bio-fuel pellets' for burning industrially.
 

Get Kraken

Junior Acolyte
Joined
May 6, 2021
Messages
73
Reaction score
140
Points
38
Yes, they contain mercury of course which is a horrible poison unless it is in your lightbulbs or your teeth wherein it is nothing to worry our little heads about. There are quite a lot of things like that. One of the biggies recently is a weedkiller called Roundup. When I was at uni it was touted as the perfect culmination of all our wonderous genetic knowledge as it specifically targeted a pathway in plants which does not exist in insects or animals. Therefore you could kill weeds with impunity as it harmed only plants. Guess what? Causes cancer.

What's weird is I have shitty teeth.. tons of mercury fillings as a kid and young adult in my permanent teeth...also used to eat canned tuna every day got mercury levels tested i was so worried. "Undetectable ." Lead levels were higher but still within normal. Have no clue where lead came from.
 

Souleater

I'm not a cat
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
4,679
Reaction score
8,192
Points
208
What's weird is I have shitty teeth.. tons of mercury fillings as a kid and young adult in my permanent teeth...also used to eat canned tuna every day got mercury levels tested i was so worried. "Undetectable ." Lead levels were higher but still within normal. Have no clue where lead came from.
You didnt lick walls as a child did you? :p
 

Mythopoeika

I am a meat popsicle
Joined
Sep 18, 2001
Messages
44,737
Reaction score
37,624
Points
314
Location
Inside a starship, watching puny humans from afar
What's weird is I have shitty teeth.. tons of mercury fillings as a kid and young adult in my permanent teeth...also used to eat canned tuna every day got mercury levels tested i was so worried. "Undetectable ." Lead levels were higher but still within normal. Have no clue where lead came from.
Do you live in an old house with lead pipes?
 

GNC

King-Sized Canary
Joined
Aug 25, 2001
Messages
32,347
Reaction score
20,110
Points
314
It's because the local councils were obliged to send less stuff to landfill, and so in order to do that, encouraged 'recycling' and provided their townsfolk with all sorts of various ways of separating stuff out into different containers. The general public believe that this is a good thing (well, it is, 'on paper'), but are not knowledgeable enough to realise it's basically all a scam.
So okay, less stuff goes to landfill (at least landfill here in the UK) but only a small percentage of the stuff 'we' think gets recycled actually does.
But like with most things, when Mr and Mrs Jones are washing out their yoghurt cartons, or putting all their cardboard and paper into a separate bin, they think they're doing the right thing. And in essence, they are, but unfortunately mostly the plastics either can't or won't be recycled, usually getting compressed into bales to fill otherwise empty shipping containers and sent back to China (eg).
And the card and paper, some gets actually pulped and reused but that would only be the stuff that is of a good enough 'clean' quality to begin with - the rest is compressed into 'bio-fuel pellets' for burning industrially.

I do know the Scottish Government have ordered a bunch of big incinerators to be built to deal with tons of waste they're not going to recycle. Wind farms seem to be a scandal in the making, too (not sure what I'm allowed to say on that count).
 

Trevp666

It was like that when I got here.........honest!!!
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
4,360
Reaction score
11,427
Points
224
Location
Welwyn Garden City (but oddly, not an actual city)
I do know the Scottish Government have ordered a bunch of big incinerators to be built to deal with tons of waste they're not going to recycle. Wind farms seem to be a scandal in the making, too (not sure what I'm allowed to say on that count).
IMO you're just staying this side of the line for 'political comment', so you should be okay.

On a different point though, there is a bigger and bigger push towards electric cars and the ending of the uses of fossil fuels, along with the recently announced ban on new gas boilers (I think from 2025 so some companies will already know they're going bust if they haven't already designed alternatives), but that all ignores the facts that we don't only travel by cars.
What about all the other transport? Lorries/Trucks, buses, trains, ships, aircraft......they all use various types of fossil fuel engines which would be difficult (if not impossible) to replace with alternatives.
And for 100% electric cars everywhere, that would beg the question "Why aren't governments ensuring that every car parking space has an electric charger?" because that is what will be needed - not just 2 or 3 chargers over in the far corner of a supermarket car park which, lets be honest, are anecdotally usually not working either through 'user damage', malfunction, or vandalization.
Plus as mentioned before, the electric cars have to be made in the first place, which not only necessitates the use of fossil fuels to do so, but additionally needs vast quantities of fairly rare materials for the batteries.
And then the electricity has to be created somewhere in large enough continuous amounts to satisfy the demands of a massive charging network. So in order to be reliable that would need to be power stations relying on burning stuff, or nuclear. Wind and Solar is only any good when the wind blows or the sun shines.
 

Souleater

I'm not a cat
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
4,679
Reaction score
8,192
Points
208
Electric cars are unsustainable, not practical and not even enviromentally that friendly, ive said this for many years, as soon as the car companies/energy businesses stop supressing hydrogen fuel cell power technology the better, but nobody can make vast amounts of money from a car that you can power by filling up with water.
 

Coastaljames

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
3,995
Reaction score
5,619
Points
214
Location
East Norfolk coast
We are being sold a lie - that we can save the world or at least live "ecologically friendly" lives without fundamentally changing the entire way we live.

This is not true. But it makes money for people. And it also means nobody has to make any drastic changes in their lives. We can just tinker around the edges and everything will be fine. Wrong.

Without total and massive changes in the way humans live, the way they travel, the way they work, they way they organise, the way they govern themselves, what their expectations for their lives are - then we will do nothing to improve the planet's ability to host us.

It's not difficult to see how we could make Britain the most ecologically-friendly country in the entire world. It's basically called the 1600s.


But you're not prepared to do it, I'm not prepared to do it - nobody will be brave enough.


So we just tinker. And people/companies get rich through our tinkering. And we all warm and fuzzy that we're "saving" the environment...which was a nonsense.




I gave up eating all seafood two months ago after reading about the environmental disaster that seafood industry causes - not because I care about oceans and ocean life (I do) but because killing our oceans will kill us. Do stuff. If we don't change there is no chance of anything changing.

And yeah - giving up seafood is tinkering. Which ruins my point. But I know what I mean. Do stuff. Enact fundamental lifestyle changes. And be ashamed to consume, to burn, to use fuel. Try and stop it if you care. And if you don't then crack on - all good. Don't smoke cigarettes if you care about the environment, don't buy melons from Brazil in Tesco. Don't drive a car. Don't travel much anywhere. Except on foot or bike. Nothing changes unless you change.

Here's one - if you care then don't use the internet, don't use a smart phone, don't use systems that use the internet - https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200305-why-your-internet-habits-are-not-as-clean-as-you-think Big greenhouse emissions.

Nothing changes unless you change.

I can absolutely guarantee you that my carbon footprint is lower than Greta Thunberg's. Guarantee you. And I don't even make much of an effort.
 
Last edited:

Stillill

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
560
Reaction score
946
Points
104
Location
London
Unless the worlds big polluters like China,U.S.A and India (those three countries combined create about 50%of the total CO2 emissions) get on board then it seems utterly pointless,it’s like pissing in the ocean. The U.K create about 1% of the worlds CO2 emissions.
 

Coastaljames

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
3,995
Reaction score
5,619
Points
214
Location
East Norfolk coast
Unless the worlds big polluters like China,U.S.A and India (those three countries combined create about 50%of the total CO2 emissions) get on board then it seems utterly pointless,it’s like pissing in the ocean. The U.K create about 1% of the worlds CO2 emissions.

Totally agree.

And they won't. Because they want to generate money. So they have power. Why would they stop?

Humans are the exploiters and the dominators.

Unless we change that then nothing changes.
 
Last edited:

Analogue Boy

Bar 6
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
11,960
Reaction score
12,742
Points
314
I would have thought working from home sends a very clear signal that putting resources into a decent internet and grants for excellent PCs would remove much of the need for flashy big new cars and travelling to work every day.
 

Coastaljames

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
3,995
Reaction score
5,619
Points
214
Location
East Norfolk coast
I would have thought working from home sends a very clear signal that putting resources into a decent internet and grants for excellent PCs would remove much of the need for flashy big new cars and travelling to work every day.

But that's kind of my point. You're exchanging an apple for, er...an apple.

You're making a change. But it's tiny. You're still playing exactly the same game and expecting a different result. Which you won't get.
 

maximus otter

Recovering policeman
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
8,478
Reaction score
18,451
Points
314
Unless the worlds big polluters like China,U.S.A and India (those three countries combined create about 50%of the total CO2 emissions) get on board then it seems utterly pointless,it’s like pissing in the ocean. The U.K create about 1% of the worlds CO2 emissions.

Presupposes that CO2 is a problem, let alone the problem.

maximus otter
 

Analogue Boy

Bar 6
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
11,960
Reaction score
12,742
Points
314
Meanwhile, like I’ve said many times before, we’re all filing our rubbish only to see it all sent off and jumbled up again in a landfill in another country.

As for electric cars, a lot of homes are two car families. That’s a lot of battery charging right there. Even if there’s enough lithium or whatever to make the batteries for these cars in the first place. Then there’s scrappage on your old car to consider. All the while, mum, dad and the kids all have phones and tablets that need charging continuously. It’s already a bit late to start setting up the infrastructure for the energy needs for this bright, green future.
 

Souleater

I'm not a cat
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
4,679
Reaction score
8,192
Points
208
Unless the worlds big polluters like China,U.S.A and India (those three countries combined create about 50%of the total CO2 emissions) get on board then it seems utterly pointless,it’s like pissing in the ocean. The U.K create about 1% of the worlds CO2 emissions.
I posted this report about Chinas greenhouse emissions a month or so ago

A report out states that Chinas greenhouse emissions top all other developed nations combined.

"China emits more greenhouse gas than the entire developed world combined, a new report has claimed.

The research by Rhodium Group says China emitted 27% of the world's greenhouse gases in 2019.

The US was the second-largest emitter at 11% while India was third with 6.6% of emissions, the think tank said.

Scientists warn that without an agreement between the US and China it will be hard to avert dangerous climate change."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-57018837
 

Coastaljames

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
3,995
Reaction score
5,619
Points
214
Location
East Norfolk coast
Meanwhile, like I’ve said many times before, we’re all filing our rubbish only to see it all sent off and jumbled up again in a landfill in another country.

As for electric cars, a lot of homes are two car families. That’s a lot of battery charging right there. Even if there’s enough lithium or whatever to make the batteries for these cars in the first place. Then there’s scrappage on your old car to consider. All the while, mum, dad and the kids all have phones and tablets that need charging continuously. It’s already a bit late to start setting up the infrastructure for the energy needs for this bright, green future.

Excellent post, thank you!

You made the points I was trying to make but they actually made sense.


Electric cars
Smart phones
Tablets

You want these things but you want to save the world? Make a choice then. Can't have both...but, of course, you're told you can.


Landfill point is a great one. You know that when you recycle a plastic bottle in England then 9 times out of 10 it has to be then flown or shipped to another country to be recycled. Madness. Plastic that can be recycled is bought and sold on the international market. More of the same stuff killing the planet disguised as saving it.

We know what to do to save the planet but we won't do it. Give it all up. The whole thing.
 

Souleater

I'm not a cat
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
4,679
Reaction score
8,192
Points
208
Excellent post, thank you!

You made the points I was trying to make but they actually made sense.


Electric cars
Smart phones
Tablets

You want these things but you want to save the world? Make a choice then. Can't have both...but, of course, you're told you can.


Landfill point is a great one. You know that when you recycle a plastic bottle in England then 9 times out of 10 it has to be then flown or shipped to another country to be recycled. Madness. Plastic that can be recycled is bought and sold on the international market. More of the same stuff killing the planet disguised as saving it.

We know what to do to save the planet but we won't do it. Give it all up. The whole thing.
The problem is, everyone is living in the hope that technology will save the planet, that someone will invent some magical 'thing' which will make everything ok again
 
Top