Orang Pendek / Orang Dalam / Sedapa [South-East Asia]

lordmongrove

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September 2011. We are also hoping to do Lake Seljord over the summer.
 

oldrover

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Having read the whole post, replies and all, and I've got to say I'm a bit confused, is there any suggestion that these samples have any evidential value, when they very clearly don't.
That's not to say that there's anything wrong with the way they were collected or analysed, or the way the results were reported, on the contrary that all seems fair and open.
 

coaly

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I was thinking the same. It's all a bit inconclusive isn't it?
 

oldrover

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Sorry just read the last part again, which says

Based on this information I am forced to conclude that Sumatra is home to a completely new species of large primate, but I am also well aware that these results can in no way be called conclusive evidence of the existence of these animals. But it should be more than enough reason for a new expedition to go back to the area, hopefully obtaining enough evidence and samples to come to a final conclusion.
http://forteanzoology.blogspot.com/2010 ... endek.html

This isn't rationale in my opinion, and I find it hard to believe that anyone could draw these conclusions. I think the balance of probability tips pretty violently toward the conclusion that if the results of the comparative structural analysis are correct, then as has been suggested in the replies section, they're Orang Utan samples contaminated by human DNA.

I don't see that whether or not the samples have any value, other than to underline the difficulty of collecting material in such an environment, has anything to do with whether the Orang Pendeck exists, but promoting these samples as evidence can only do harm. I think its a shame.
 

lordmongrove

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dr Lars Thomas, a well respected scientist has said, if you read his account, that he is forced to conclude that there is a large, unknown primate in Sumatra. I call that a result. The hair is akin to orang-utan but with several structural differences. The DNA suggests something closer to human. Such a combiunation is not impossable. It suggests something unknown. Even if the hair was contaminated with human DNA its structure is still that of an unknown primate.
We allways have nay-sayers posting on our site.Every time the CFZ do something all the cunts come out of the woodwork and start slagging us off on our blog. Not a one of them does any research of their own or brings anything to the table. Certain other blogs that have features photos of kids toys, dead racoons and Halloween costumes being passed off as cryptids get no critisism whatso ever!
The CFZ are the only people who are doing any kind of serious, on going field work in cryptozoology but akll the thanks we get is abuse from moron who would not have the backbone to come on one of our expeditions. Empty vessals make the most noise.
 

Pietro_Mercurios

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I would like to politely ask everybody to refrain from personal attacks. Whatever the provocation.

P_M
 

coaly

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That was a bit angry! I shan't mention bolstering evidence to justify funding then, or fireworks may go off! :?
 

Dr_Baltar

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oldrover said:
This isn't rationale in my opinion, and I find it hard to believe that anyone could draw these conclusions. I think the balance of probability tips pretty violently toward the conclusion that if the results of the comparative structural analysis are correct, then as has been suggested in the replies section, they're Orang Utan samples contaminated by human DNA.
And I thought orang pendek was meant to have greyish brown hair. Given that these are stated as being red, I would have thought your conclusion seems the likelier too. But perhaps I'm just being a cunt and a moron (and not for the first time either).
 

WhistlingJack

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@lordmongrove: Just who, exactly, are you calling 'cunts' and 'morons'? Whether it's posters in this thread or not, I think you should make yourself clear.
 

lordmongrove

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I'll make it 100% clear that i'm not calling anyone on the FT forum a cunt or moron. I've never had problems with anyone here, people are generaly civil. On other forums, including our own both Jon and i have recived many personal attacks of a very nasty nature, generaly from people hiding behind psudonyms. I like the FT foum and enjoy posting here. If i sounded angry in my last post its not with you guys but with the scumbags who seem only to exist to attack enything and everything we do whilst doing bugger all themselves.
By the way we are not bolsteting up eveidence for funding. The funding come from our own rather thredbear pockets. A few years back i poured £5000 into the Mongolia deathworm trip. These arn't hollidays but arduous and dangerous expedions. We do them because we think these creatures are worthy of study. The only sponser i ever had was Capcom Games who insisted we go to Guyana in November in the middle of huge drought and totally defeated the pourpose of the expedition.
As for the hairs being orang-utan, Lars stated that there were several structural differences from orang-utan hair. Orang-utans were last recorded in this part of Sumatra in the 1880s.
 

Dr_Baltar

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lordmongrove said:
Orang-utans were last recorded in this part of Sumatra in the 1880s.
Precisely. I think it would be great news if a population of orang-utans were to be discovered in this area. I just think "I am forced to conclude that Sumatra is home to a completely new species of large primate" is, not to put too fine a point on it, a bit of a leap, given the evidence.
 

lordmongrove

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I had allways suspected that it is the third species of orang-utan. I've seen the prints and they are different to the known orangs, both of which i have worked with extensivly and i have seen their tracks in al kinds of mediums such as earth, sawdust, snow and mud.
 

Kondoru

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Just how different is human DNA from the Orangs?
 

oldrover

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Lordmongrove I really am sorry to have given offence, but I don't apologise for what I posted. You are a zoologist and therefore know that this cannot be considered as evidence. It is as far as it is presented unsubstantiated personal opinion, likely contradicted by the genetic analysis. If there are further pertinent details, then I would suggest that they should have been published at the very least to accompany any publicly published conclusion.
 

lordmongrove

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Oldrover, you've not caused any offence. You allways argue your points well in a gentlemanly fasion. We might not agree but i don't mind, infact i ejoy our exchanges. Lars himself said that this would not be concidered final difinitive poof.
The hairs could be a creature with orang-utan like hair but a closer relationship to man or they could be hairs from an orang-utan like ape that have the guides DNA on them (even though they were useing tweezers and gloves).
As i've stated before i' put money on OP being an ape, probobly very closly related to or indeed a thrid species of orang-utan.
The CFZ Sumatran project is on going. We are due back out there next September. Rome wasn't built in a day. Remember when they first tried to film the snow leopard? Six years in the field before they got a shot and they had cash behind them. We pay for this ourselves.
 

colpepper1

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The most compelling evidence for me was the eye witness testimony. It matches nothing known in the area. If the good Lord and his pals weren't doing this work no bugger else would.
I think people are also underestimating Lars Thomas's experience in looking at such material.
 

lordmongrove

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Thanks guys
Tich s 100% right. In the ideal world we would be over there for months at a time but we just don't have the resources.
Lars is indeed an expert in identifining mammal hair. He was once brought a strange hair that had been found in department store in Copehagen. He identified it as comming from a white rhino! Either someone was a zookeeper or they had been to Africa!
 

oldrover

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Good, I'm glad to hear that there's no offence taken.

Six years in the field before they got a shot and they had cash behind them. We pay for this ourselves.
Fair point a huge difficulty. By the way critical as I am of the interpretation I didn't think that there was a financial motive behind the claims.

Returning to the main point, I still say that the sighting made on your last expedition is compelling, and agree that the idea of baiting in your absence over a long period is your best chance of getting something.
 

oldrover

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I’ve got to go with a cultural explanation, there is one thing though that still does intrigue me as maybe leading to some sort of more complex explanation. And that’s the stories from Sri Lanka and Flores, both describe the extermination of the similar Nittaewo and Ebo Gogo in exactly the same way. I don’t know or know how to find out if there’s some link between the two cultures or some possible point of reasonably recent point of common origin, but I’m guessing not.

Mike Morwood who along with others discovered H. Floresiensis, recently speculated in Beast Man that they probably survived until the 1920’s and added that he didn’t consider it impossible that they still persisted elsewhere in Indonesia.
 

amyasleigh

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Nittaewo and Ebo Gogo -- and Orang Pendek, maybe still around today -- I feel ready to accept as possibly simply-flesh-and-blood. Anything bigger -- and especially in Oceania, for reason given -- ??; cultural, as you say; or, ????
 

oldrover

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I continue to get "linking" problems; but I'm "the fool of the world" with computers. Will hold back re the matter, till I can get round to my dwelling, a helpful and computer-clever relative, who may be able to assist.
It's the links not you. The second one seems to be a valid one but for Australians only.

I'm not sure how something like a forearm blade could get started, from observation of anything corporeal.

It may be simpler though to explain why it also appears in the Malay Peninsula. According to Wiki* they've got linguistic and therefore cultural links with Indochina. Of course there's no way to tell who started it.


* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakai_(tribe)
 

amyasleigh

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Thanks for link. A scholarly work by the chap, it's plain; but at times, one feels a bit wretchedly that this whole matter goes ever around in the same circles -- no progress ever made. I shall certainly emulate you and use my £150 for something else !
 

oldrover

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You're right, I'd say it comes down to a question of whether there's any there except human creation. Personally I tend to doubt it. I think there are very good reasons to dismiss a flesh and blood perspective, which we've covered here on similar threads. But briefly it's the Yowie that kills it for me.

As for the supernatural (sorry if that's the wrong word) I don't go for it, but that's just because it doesn't fit into my personal schema. On some level though maybe, I don't think you can dismiss it as easily as the flesh and blood explanation.

For me the ones that are different enough not to quite fit in with the general man beast phenomena, are the hobbits and Oran pendeck. As for the Hobbits though, I think it's possible that the stories from Sri Lanka and Flores could be referring to some other modern human group, and the remains of H. Floresiensis are confusing matters. I really do think though that this is an area where there really should be some study. Maybe it's in areas like this that cryptozoology would be most effective. Oran pendeck though, who knows.
 

lordmongrove

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IVE SEEN THE LITTLE BUGGERS FOOTPRINTS AND THEY ARE QUITE DIFFERENT FROM ALL THE KNOWN APES WHOSE SPOOR I'M VERY FAMILIAR WITH.
Rats caps, i can't be bothered to correct them now, it 3 in the morning!
 

oldrover

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Which little buggers Oran Pendeck or Hobbits?

I only use the arrows instead of caps lock, too many times I've typed too much, only to look up and find bloody capitols, the one thing you can't fix.
 

amyasleigh

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lordmongrove said:
IVE SEEN THE LITTLE BUGGERS FOOTPRINTS AND THEY ARE QUITE DIFFERENT FROM ALL THE KNOWN APES WHOSE SPOOR I'M VERY FAMILIAR WITH.
Rats caps, i can't be bothered to correct them now, it 3 in the morning!
In some fear of peeing-off everyone: context "flesh-and-blood-this-world-only" (which I don't reckon be-all-and-end-all), I'm ready to buy the Orang Pendek as the likeliest for-real cryptid, which I know of.

lordmongrove (don't think I've asked this before) -- a few vague indications of -- within the century gone by -- a supposed giant ape-man in Sumatra -- the "Orang Gadang" (Big Man). Have seen this explained as a misidentified bear of some kind, this by a rather extreme sceptic / debunker (unfortunately couldn't find the reference). Any light to shed on this one?
 

amyasleigh

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oldrover said:
You're right, I'd say it comes down to a question of whether there's any there except human creation. Personally I tend to doubt it. I think there are very good reasons to dismiss a flesh and blood perspective, which we've covered here on similar threads. But briefly it's the Yowie that kills it for me.

As for the supernatural (sorry if that's the wrong word) I don't go for it, but that's just because it doesn't fit into my personal schema. On some level though maybe, I don't think you can dismiss it as easily as the flesh and blood explanation.

For me the ones that are different enough not to quite fit in with the general man beast phenomena, are the hobbits and Oran pendeck. As for the Hobbits though, I think it's possible that the stories from Sri Lanka and Flores could be referring to some other modern human group, and the remains of H. Floresiensis are confusing matters. I really do think though that this is an area where there really should be some study. Maybe it's in areas like this that cryptozoology would be most effective. Oran pendeck though, who knows.
So much, so???? As you say, a lot of possibility of passed-on tales about more-primitive,and extirpated, hom. sap. sap. -- overall, one seems to come to know less, rather than more. General feeling re mysterious hairy bipeds in Indochina: aside from the supernatural / paranormal (where "all bets are off") -- if there were MHB stuff going on there a few decades ago and before, it would rather seem, "no longer" -- as always on this scene, it would be wonderful and delightful to be proved wrong.
 
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