Pub Closures

[_Lizard23_]

Pub industry reform on 'beer ties' called for by MPs
Laws could be introduced forcing pub firms to change practices blamed for stifling competition, MPs have warned.

In a follow-up to two earlier reports, the cross-party Business, Innovation and Skills Committee said it wanted to see "real reform" in the sector.

It wants "beer ties" - requiring tenant landlords to buy beer supplies only from owner firms - to be investigated.

The committee said it would give the industry until June next year to solve the problem before taking action.

It talked of a "serious imbalance in power between pub companies and lessees".

"The industry must be aware that this is its last opportunity for self-regulated reform," the MPs said.

"Should those problems persist beyond June 2011, we will not hesitate to recommend that legislation to provide statutory regulation be introduced."

The MPs said the relationship between pub companies and their tenants must be looked at by the next committee early in the next parliament.

Under the influence

The MPs also urged the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) to reconsider its ruling made in October last year that found no evidence that ties between pub companies and landlords were harming competition in the pub sector.

The complaint by Campaign for Real Ale (Camra) over so-called "beer ties" - landlords having to buy beer from pub owners - is currently subject to an appeal.

Pub firms have been criticised by some for using their strong position to impose high rents on landlords, and for failing to pass on the discounts they get on beer to their tenants.

For their part, pub companies argue they need to continue to influence the running of their pubs so they can make a profit.

The British Beer & Pub Association says its industry code of practice can address these concerns.

"We are determined to address the issues raised in the report head on, by raising standards and putting into practice the new Framework Industry Code," it said.

"Companies will apply both the letter and spirit of that code in their own individual company codes within the next few months.

"This will deliver greater transparency to prospective tenants and lessees, more information, training and a low-cost independent rent review panel for existing tenants and lessees."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8550815.stm
Interesting. As I'm sure I've said before, the 'Beer Orders' that effectively created the PubCo's were originally an attempt to decrease prices, increase competition and make a fairer deal for tenants, lessees and consumers.

There's a reasonable summary of the whole sordid business here -
http://www.res.org.uk/society/mediabrie ... /slade.asp

I wonder what this new 'investigation' will result in .....

 

[brother]

I've only read the first post on this thread so I am responding to that.

personally I think that the 'powers that be' would love it if we were all squeezed into boozers pissed out of our brains (or drugged up to our eye balls). I hardly think pissed up people are a threat to the establishment. A threat to other boozers and unfortunate members of the public who happen to be in the way during the stagger home maybe, but not to the Goverment.

Booze, narcotics, TV, spectator sports such as foorball, a large percentage of the internet, crossword puzzles, Countdown and so on are all just forms of drugs which keep people subdued like a child's toy might stop a child from having a tantrum.

maybe its just me but from my experience most people dont go to pubs to talk about politics especially pissed up teenagers (as if most of these people have a keen understanding of the subject anyway other than what they have read in the Sun).

And as for Clarkson, i doubt very much he has a revolutionary bone in his body. A few intensely bigoted ones and a couple of whingng one, but not a revolutionary one. he is at the very vanguard of establishment thinking and ideology despite the fact that he claims to be the opposite. My favourite was hearing him on the radio getting hysterical at George Monbiot and calling him a communist when he started to loose the debate.

 

[Jonfairway]

Its just a part of the dumbing down process

 

[aussiehippy]

The only way to save pubs would be to use them more.

I know it's highly unfashionable to be a regular drinker these days, unless you are one of these teenage drinkers of binge that the media loves to demonise, but I try and do my bit to keep my favourite pubs in Halifax still going.

The pubs are integral to the local music scene, which is how I spend most of my free time, either watching bands or performing. So they're the hub of my social and hobby interests, and I spend at least 3/4 evenings a week in them.

Tuesdays and Wednesday in particular are almost depressing, with myself, my drummer and a couple of die-hard regulars being the only inhabitants.

I know the pubcos are rotten gits and I hope they get legislated against in a way that puts more money and power in the hands of the people actually running the pubs.

I know pretty much everyone has their own view of how the smoking ban has/hasn't affected the situation, but I will say from a musicians viewpoint, it's a sad situation whereby you can't hold the attention of the entire room of people for a whole gig, because half of them keep nipping out for a fag.

The only thing that would be worse is when* the pubs are gone, because there'll be nowhere to even play at all then.

*When, not if.

 

[Stormkhan]

I'm feeling more than largely lacking in gruntles. I am VERY disgruntled. Moving into a new area of the town, I find a lovely pub, easy to get to and find, big on live music, real ale stockist (complete with CAMRA discout), good food ... and they're having to close.

Short version of the story is that the lease was sold by the Brewery to three fellers who put their savings into the business dead cheap. It was cheap because the pub was sandwiched between two other pubs which catered for the socially challenged (i.e. drugged up, violent, stupid, underaged youths who pay lots of money for cheap, poor booze) and the brewery, frankly, wanted to "loose" the location.
The three guys really put everything into the business, making it what it is. A "healthy" local population keeps the nasty scrotes into the other pubs (one of which was recently fire bombed by a coke-head who took exception to being thrown out) and the pub, were you to visit it today, is a relaxed, freindly kind of pub.
Unfortunately, the Brewery (who still owns the property) thought that it was too successful so it's put up the business lease 400%, claiming that it had "undervalued" the property on "first assessment" and they are owed. There's no way that the present landlords can match this figure and, in a month, a real asset to the area is being lost. The property will be put onto the market and (according to local rumour) a local criminal gang will buy it outright (as a nice little earner) and the scummy, drug-dealing underaged relations who drink nearby will claim it as captured territory.

Of course, the brewery couldn't give a Tinkers Cuss about local drinkers ... they just didn't like a success they hadn't milked!

 

[Bloodbeard]

I'm a smoker and regularish pub frquenter, i don't mind the smoking ban, theres often quite a sociable atmosphere but what i do feel to be an infringment is the complete intolerance to drink driving. Don't get me wrong there are limits and they should be adhered to. In France it is common to be served the equivalent of a pint of fine cider that wouldn't be more than 2%. It is much better than the pish that is usually dispensed here and won't result in alcoholic incompetence. In ireland it is the zero tolerance that is crucifying rural pubs, but if drivers could be sure to have say 2 pints over the course of an evening and know they were within legal/medical limits wheres the harm?. I am not advocating a drunken free for all and i do believe people are probably more responsible about this than they were say thirty years ago.

 

[stu neville]

..I am about to return to the UK, and was supposed to be running a lovely country village pub I used to frequent.

It is owned by Enterprise.
It's in the CAMRA Good Beer bible.
Over the five or six years I drank there I saw five different landlords. They all bought a ten year lease for approaching a hundred grand, they were all strangers to the area, they all initially gained and then lost custom - everyone went out of curiosity, everyone stopped going when they decided they didn't like the new folk, or the beer wasn't so good, and doubly so when the couple behind the bar started whinging incessantly about not making any money...

I have a twist on this. My local for years followed that very pattern, closure, re-opening with bells and whistles and shiny new management, gradual decline into rowdyism and police intervention, closure... in fact last time but one, my son and I were walking past said pub, newly boarded up, when three blokes came out of it with a sack truck containing a ciggie machine, which they loaded into a big luton van. In the back of the van were barrels, crates of spirits, one of those big glass-fronted fridges... and wouldn't you know, that night the pub caught fire! Good thing they got all that stuff out.

Anyway, it lay there, structurally quite sound but cosmetically wrecked for about 6 months. Then workmen started doing stuff to it, and in a month or two it was restored (and it is a very pretty pub, mid-Victorian but on the site of a tavern that had been there for centuries.)

New managers moved in. He was a local lad, his missus from only a mile or two down the road. They understood the community perfectly, knew quite a few of the locals already, and as two of the four local pubs had already gone forever they had an open goal, as the other remaining pub had a very solid, very stable, slightly older clientele and sensibly catered for and concentrated on keeping it. The pub thrived, The managers worked their proverbials off, got a good chef and laid on very good food for a reasonable price. They soon had a great, well-behaved and loyal stream of regulars, they were welcoming and inclusive, but he dealt with mischief quickly and quietly - the local plod station is up the road, and they were happy to help. People felt safe and relaxed in there, they were making a healthy profit, getting good reviews, word-of-mouth, etc etc.

So, two months ago, the brewery moved them from that pub and into one that was dying on its arse in the centre of town. That pub would struggle under the most gifted and experienced of managers - it's a faceless, back-street boozer within a forest of hugely established and venerable watering holes, and 200 yards from a Wetherspoons the size of the Albert Hall. It's also very near to most of the big nightclubs, so Fri and Sat night 90% of the people drinking in that area that aren't loyal regulars or niche customers just want cheap and volume. I wish them well, but horses for courses it's not.

And then a new couple of out-of-town idiots came out of the blue and signed up for the lease, no negotiations.

That pub will be closed again within 18 months.

I expect it will be charming apartments in 3 years.

..and lo and behold, our local reopened under new management, from Reading. He looks about 20. She looks not even that. Nice people, but I fear I can see where this is going .

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

Thanks, Stu, Lizard23 and everybody. It's like one of those old fashioned Christmas ghost stories, designed to send a chill of fear and horror down one's back at the conjuration of intimations of mortality.

Rather depressing, though.

 

[Quake42]

FWIW I think the smoking ban was a big mistake - from what I can see the people that moaned that they wouldn't go into pubs because of the cigarette smoke haven't suddenly started flocking there post-ban.

The big issue though I think is the divergence between the price of booze in a pub/bar and the supermarkets. A £4 pint is not unusual in London, even in zone 2, and a glass of pretty average wine can easily set you back a fiver. Buying similar in a supermarket will cost as little as 20% of that - and o course you can smoke at home...

 

[Analogue Boy]

FWIW I think the smoking ban was a big mistake - from what I can see the people that moaned that they wouldn't go into pubs because of the cigarette smoke haven't suddenly started flocking there post-ban.

My observation of the 'Moaners' average behaviour was they'd meet up as a bunch at 7.30, grab a table in the corner and nurse one diet coke (because they were driving) until leaving about 9. All along, they'd tut at the smokers and dramatically cough and splutter.

I guess the figures show they haven't turned out to enjoy smokeless pubs and neither have I. Since the ban, I've been to a pub about 4 times.

Like I said at the beginning of the thread, deterring your regular customers of shall we say, a more addictive nature, was always going to be the beginning of the end for pub culture. I don't know how the decline of the pub affects HM Treasury but I have heard a figure of -£250m bandied about.

Since abandoning the pub, I haven't been charged £4 a pint and I don't even dare think how much a glass of water costs. I did go to a staff Xmas thing in a restaurant this year and asked for a JD and Coke. I got a slice of lemon in it.
:x

 

[rynner2]

Pub closure loophole under review

A legal loophole that allows breweries to sell off pubs and prevent them being reopened by a rival could be removed by the government.
Pubs Minister Bob Neill has launched a public consultation into the use of "restrictive covenants", often used to put limits on future use of buildings.

The Campaign for Real Ale says 29 pubs a week are closing across the UK.

The government has already announced plans to give communities in England and Wales the chance to take over pubs.

The Localism Bill, which was unveiled last month, would give local people the chance to place pubs on a "most wanted" list and if they are put up for sale, give them the time to develop a bid and raise the necessary money.

Three local councils - Darlington, Newcastle upon Tyne and Ryedale - urged the government to take action on the issue of restrictive covenants, which can be used to prevent pubs from being brought back into use.
Brewers and pub chain owners can insert a clause into sale documents preventing a pub they have decided to close from being reopened by a rival.
Camra has long argued such covenants are used to stop competition.

Mr Neill said: "The pubs and clubs in our community can be the heart and soul of a town, village or street and many of us will be heading off to our local this evening to celebrate the new year.
"But too many are being closed down, depriving communities of important places to get together with their neighbours for a quick pint and a catch up."

In April the brewers, Thwaites, closed a pub in Blackburn, Lancashire, which is to be converted into flats.
Thwaites' director of operations, Andrew Buchanan, defended the closure and the decision to put a restrictive covenant on it to prevent it being used as a pub in the future.

He told the Blackburn Citizen newspaper: "In a very limited number of instances, we may place a restrictive covenant on the property's future use.
"In doing so we are trying to encourage a viable pub industry in the teeth of all of the pressures currently faced by the sector as a whole."

But Camra's chief executive, Mike Benner, said: "Restrictive covenants are used by pub companies to deprive local communities of their pubs, at a time when 29 pubs are closing every week.
"Between 2004 and 2009, this happened to almost 600 pubs."
He welcomed the consultation as a "great success for localism" and added: "It shows that government recognises that pubs are vital community assets that need to be protected.
"For the new community right-to-buy scheme to work, pubs need to be available for communities to keep open.
"It's a victory too for people power: this proposal came from communities on the ground, via their local councils who put the proposals to central government. "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12097227

 

[colpepper1]

...deterring your regular customers of shall we say, a more addictive nature, was always going to be the beginning of the end for pub culture.

That's about the size of it. As a kid growing up in the sixties and venturing into boozers in the seventies, a pub going through was virtually unheard of. The majority of its customers were from the immediate vicinity - with the exception of town centre boozers - and spent most nights in the same establishment or on a loop of two or three favoured watering holes. Like so many aspects of that era, they retained a captive and as you say, addictive consumer.

The beer I remember was generally keg and barely drinkable and if there was real ale it was by the same two breweries and highly variable in character. The choice and quality now by comparison is a beer drinker's nirvana but the pubs are empty and closing. That is surely because what their customer's were seeking was not quality of product, but the company of like minded addicts in surroundings that catered for their addiction.

I hate smoking with a vengeance, it killed most of my immediate family and took money from the budget they could ill afford but it had a ritualistic quality they derived pleasure from in a life largely devoid of treats.
I suspect beer, like that other hobby football, has become exponentially more expensive over time. To slake the thirst of a typical factory hand of the 1960s would take a middle class income today.

I miss the indulgent town brewers of the earlier era with their Chaucerian landlords and institutionalised clientele. We shall not see their like again. Cheers.

 

[stu neville]

I have a twist on this. My local for years followed that very pattern, closure, re-opening with bells and whistles and shiny new management, gradual decline into rowdyism and police intervention, closure.....and lo and behold, our local reopened under new management, from Reading. He looks about 20. She looks not even that. Nice people, but I fear I can see where this is going..

They lasted about a year. Rinse and repeat, then another overhaul, renamed, refitted... closed for a year due to lockdown, and then, yesterday, it pulled its last ever pint. It's on the market with a view to flat conversion.

JD W.spoon are the ones to really watch. Note their oh-so-friendly, decent and responsible PR while beneath they're a juggernaut. And councils seem to love them.

That aged well.

 

[Kondoru]

Im not a pub goer but I do take interest in local heritage.

Sad

 

[Frideswide]

The other night there was a dramamentary on BBC4 about the Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918 which I did watch. I found it quite alarming - the message seemed to be that as the authorities were allowed to virtually shut down Manchester and isolate it's people (as much as possible) that city escaped with less deaths than other cities similarly sized. What is in store for us if the second wave of flu hits in the autumn?

Just highlighting this, in the current situation

 

[Kondoru]

Pubs are changing.

what about the modern trend towards microbrewing in pubs? (Says she who went to the Blue anchor, in Helston, several times)

And community owned pubs?

 

[Cochise]

Pubs are changing.

what about the modern trend towards microbrewing in pubs? (Says she who went to the Blue anchor, in Helston, several times)

And community owned pubs?

I got absolutely smashed in the Blue Anchor in 1981. Had one of each of their brews, turned into a drooling idiot. Also, IIRC, they brewed their beer in the cowshed.

Every time a proper pub closes a smidgen of me dies. By proper pub I mean one that has live music at least once a year and serves basic food. Steak pies acceptable, anything with a French name not. Or anything on the menu named after someone famous.

I quite like Wetherspoons, to be fair. Although the one in Liverpool centre is atypical - not many Wetherspoons go in for dirty dancing - I like the one in New Brighton too. There are a couple of good ones in my ancestral home - Southend - as well. The one in Caernarfon is OK providing you avoid drunks' corner.

 

[Zeke Newbold]

I think we have a small example here of where things are headed. I am nearly 48 years old, and would consider myself fairly level headed and objective. Things just felt freer before, even within the last 20 years.
It is true we are more observed than ever before
The other night there was a dramamentary on BBC4 about the Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918 which I did watch. I found it quite alarming - the message seemed to be that as the authorities were allowed to virtually shut down Manchester and isolate it's people (as much as possible) that city escaped with less deaths than other cities similarly sized. What is in store for us if the second wave of flu hits in the autumn?
Don't even get me started on traffic lights.

Whoa! A somewhat prophetic post from twelve years back!