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Pub Closures

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LordRsmacker

Abominable Snowman
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
724
My work sometimes takes me into the licensed trade and obviously things have been pretty grim there for some time. Breweries have been closing pubs all over the place, if you are prepared to take on the lease to a boozer they will practically give you the keys no questions asked. Landlords in solvent establishments are being offered rent-free periods in other nearby premises if they will simply take them on as well - the thought is that they must be doing something right and can hopefully repeat their success. Mostly these landlords will decline, they are having a hard enough time keeping one place afloat, without taking on somewhere that has already gone tits-up.

Now, when listening to the tales of woe, the stories of long-established watering holes disappearing with a whimper, I have heard it said several times that the Govt are deliberately trying to squeeze the life out of pubs. Naturally, they would say that, it would be the Govt handling of the economy which has pushed up duty, prices and given the punter less disposable income to piss up the wall. But this is not what they are saying. They are saying it's a deliberate plan.

The reason I am typing this now is because I heard the same thing yesterday from someone NOT connected with the trade who said almost word for word what I have been hearing - that the Govt want to crush pubs, and here's the interesting point, because "they don't want us talking. They don't want us getting together, talking about the way things are and doing something about it" ( by which I guess they don't mean by simply voting a new Govt into power)

The first time I heard this, I laughed. The idea that the Govt are allowing, or even encouraging Tesco to sell booze at absolute rock bottom prices so as to get us to stay at home getting pissed up in front of the telly, instead of in a pub full of potentially angry revolutionaries is a joke.

Or is it?

As I say, the first few times I heard it, I just thought it a quirky idea, but I've heard it from literally dozens of people in the trade, and now from someone not even connected. Is this a widely held belief, spouted by some big mouthed "celeb" I am unaware of? (Someone along the lines of Clarkson?)
The way this was said to me yesterday was so close to the other times I have heard it, I would have believed it came as a quote of a written statement or formed part of a slogan or political campaign. I didn't have opportunity to quiz the person, but it struck me as odd that someone not in the trade holds such a view . It actually came as part of a tirade against Tesco/Sainsbury, not as a lament about the closure of traditional pubs.

As I listened, we travelled past pub after pub after pub boarded up, or being demolished, some of them being fantastic buildings. To be replaced by a metal and glass Carphone Whorehouse, or more often, 35 tiny flats or "starter homes", I have to say I found it sad, even criminal, that these establishments, long seen as part of the very fabric of British society, are on the wane in a serious way, perhaps in even more of a steep dive than you'd expect from natural closures due to market forces (ie. if there are too many pubs for drinkers to support, some close. No conspiracy, just economics).

So what do you think? Is HM Govt happy to see the back of places where miffed individuals might congregate and mull over their situation rather than being sat in front of the box being spoon-fed the Govt way of thinking? I'm not saying there's a secret plan by Whitehall, but to me, it sounds more and more plausible that they would perhaps not be as concerned about propping up the pub trade as, say, the plunge of an already dead motor industry. It's not as if we British are becoming more temperate either is it?
 
Revolutions don't really start in pubs, these days. Not when you can SMS, with your mobile.

But, it is grim, nonetheless.
 
Isn't "I seen it on the internet" the new "bloke down the pub said..." anyway? If they were wanting to keep people from complaining about the state of the society to one another then depriving them of one of the more amusing alternatives to the web would be the wrong way of going about it.

It seems more likely that the authorities - if they were trying to lay waste to the licensed trade - would probably have some health or crime based reason for doing so. Also, as far as I can make out pubs seem to be forever closing down it's just that in a recession they're not opening up so quickly again. When I think about the various nightclubs and bars in my hometown about half of them have changed hands at some point (especially the nightclubs) in the last 15 years. I guess at the moment there's just fewer willing to take on enterprises that were fairly likely to close anyway. Probably true for many industries.
 
The real problem is that the pub culture itself has changed. When I were't lad, several decades ago, a decent pub was filled with a real cross section of the local society.

Now, they are often filled with kids getting blitzed on a weekend and empty during the week. Telly and the internet have taken their toll. No way to make a living. The breweries and the Govt. mostly squeeze every last penny profit out of the pubs, too.

When a pub goes, like when a post office goes, it's often another nail in the coffin of the local community.

The smoking ban had a pretty disastrous effect, what ever the official explanation is.

And yes, a nation of isolated individuals, captive in front of the goggle box, is more likely to be a submissive nation, that much readier to swallow any old crap that gets spouted by the Media.
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
And yes, a nation of isolated individuals, captive in front of the goggle box, is more likely to be a submissive nation, that much readier to swallow any old crap that gets spouted by the Media.
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It depends. You'd have to consider a site - in fact, a thread - such as this to be "any old crap that gets spouted by the media". I'd argue that distrust of traditional media and the burgeoning success of alternative media is at least contemporary with further isolation if not actually a result of it. And realistically if you went down to a pub tonight and tried to initiate a conversation with a stranger you'd be unlikely to have the kind of discussion that this thread and this forum engenders. It would also be unlikely that you'd be having it with people who live in a number of different countries.
 
There have already been cases of police asking for more CCTV in pubs and the increased monitoring of 'radical' - (I suppose you could include environmental) groups meeting in pubs. But I reckon the wider point is the Govt are committed and in hock to the perceived riches of data collection for the ID card scheme and how BIG businesses can help them acquire it

Bear in mind there are certain Superstores that have a full-on approach to the sale of discounted alcohol AND a loyalty card system that logs your purchases onto a database AND are being mooted as future ad hoc medical centres/pharmacies - AND as matter of record, provided you've signed up to t£$c)0$ personal loan or their great insurance plan (£1.50 a day) may correlate your purchases to the illnesses you suffer while getting drunk on their 3 for £10 wines and eating too many of their 'wholesome' ready meals.

And, as I said on another thread about pub culture, once you got rid of the smokers, i.e. those with the most addictive personalities from pubs, things were going to change anyway.


Of course the pub industry didn't do itself any favours by painting everything white, putting in brown sofas and pretending to be a bistro until 8.30 when it became impossible to hold a conversation as it had transformed into a 'club' and pumped out a repetitive monotonous beat you HAD to synchronise your drinking arm to and the fact your throat was so dry because you had to shout to the person a foot away from you.

Inevitable. I knew this would happen.
 
LordRsmacker said:
...The idea that the Govt are allowing, or even encouraging Tesco to sell booze at absolute rock bottom prices so as to get us to stay at home getting pissed up in front of the telly, instead of in a pub full of potentially angry revolutionaries is a joke.
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Another layer to what I agree is a bit of a far-fetched theory..
New Bristol Tesco store to go ahead

Permission has been given to turn a pub garden in Bristol into a car park – paving the way for the premises to be turned into a Tesco Express store.

Councillors gave consent for the 12-space car park at the Friendship Inn in Axbridge Road, Knowle, at a Planning Committee meeting yesterday, despite objections.

The plans had been revised after concerns about safety of access to the car park.

Councillors were told that a turning area was now being provided so that if the car park was full, motorists could drive out in forward gear....(continues)
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link

That was my local when I was a lad. Did a lot of my formative drinking in there :(. Will be sad to see it go. Anyhow, as I mentioned in (I think) the Smoking Ban thread, my BIL had a big, thriving pub up North until about a year ago when he pulled his last pint. However, he blames both a Tesco metro and a big Wetherspoons, both of whom opened up pretty much simultaneously within spitting distance of his boozer. He says the former, while omnipresent, aren't nearly as much a threat to your local as the latter: JD W.spoon are the ones to really watch. Note their oh-so-friendly, decent and responsible PR while beneath they're a juggernaut. And councils seem to love them.
 
One of my pet topics, this.
I get pretty paranoid about it occasionally, but not because I think the government is trying to suppress revolution, rather that the current trend is towards the imposition of healthier lifestyles. Quite how the glut of cheap supermarket booze fits in with this theory I'm not sure, maybe that will just be next to go. It's pretty hard to argue against better health, so I'll not bother, except to say that I hope you all enjoy doing your obligatory morning jerks in front of the telescreen.

Other people's experiences of pubs sound very different to mine - in the ones I frequent there is indeed a wide cross-section of society, very few Saturday night kids and the probability of having an interesting discussion with a stranger is pretty high. I'm a barley wine away from being an alcoholic, so I know my shit. Both my old regular boozers are currently under threat of closure.

As I said on another thread, breweries do not own pubs any more, even though even pub landlords still tend to call their bosses 'the brewery'. Breweries are nice folks, they make beer. The people who own the pubs are basically estate agents.

I think we decided on the smoking ban thread that I'm a dinosaur and that cultural shifts towards better health and the caring modern dad and so on are the cause of the death of the traditional boozer. Maybe. It's a bit of a bastard for those of us who are neither healthy nor caring, but I don't expect there's much time between your muesli and the school run to empathise with willful fools.
 
I don't think the government are forcing pubs to close to stifle a common meeting-point for disaffected citizens.
I think they are guilty of trying to help big business (such as superstores and huge pub chains), increase their revenue (on booze tax) while trying to appear as health-conscious.

"How can we prevent binge-drinking?" whine some lesser political toady.
"I know," sayeth the Powers That Be, "let's have 24 hour drinking, rubberstamping licence applications and allowing cheap yet strong booze be available to sell by those nice, wealthy folk at ***** Brewery PLC. Oh, and we can put tax on booze up to be another little earner."

Frankly, the Government would rather fawn to nice, rich political doners than to tell them to limit their sales.

Many pubs I see close are victims of the current financial situation. Here in Nottingham, we have loads of pubs, bars and clubs which cater to students, stag nights and hen nights. Licences for such "popular"-styled joints are incredibly easy to get. In the town centre, that is. Within 30 minutes walk from the centre, in one direction alone, I can point to four pubs that have closed down - one actually on my road. In the window the owners already point out that it is an "ideal redevelopment opportunity" i.e. turn this joint into flats!
The non-binge drinker paradise pub struggles to keep afloat.
 
Just curious, but if the 'long term decline of the British Pub' is accepted as just that, when - roughly - did all the actual closures start in large numbers?

When did the final straw begin to break the camels?

Here's one measure (courtesy of one of the pithy and amusing British Political Blogs - Devil's Kitchen)

Weekly pub closures in the UK

2005: 2

2006: 4

2007: 27

2008: 39

2009: 52

See if you can guess which year the smoking ban came in...
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Any longstanding CAMRA members in the house?

If you are, then you'll know that a large measure of blame can be put at the door of the PubCos forcing out the independents, shutting down breweries, and generally stuffing up a good product.

Whether the smoking ban had an effect or not is debatable, both sides can produce figures to support their claims. Most pubs I've been into in Ireland and the UK post smoking bans seemed to be as busy as pre-smoking ban (the Irish ones actually seemed busier.

Although that's just my anecdotal evidence.
 
lawofnations said:
Most pubs I've been into in Ireland and the UK post smoking bans seemed to be as busy as pre-smoking ban (the Irish ones actually seemed busier.

Although that's just my anecdotal evidence.
Click to expand...

When I flew into Kerry last summer there was a poster campaign reminding people to 'use or lose their locals' (nicer and catchier wording, but i forget). The locals in Tipperary seemed to think that the recent crack-downs on drink-driving and the smoking ban combined have dealt the killer blow.
 
theyithian said:
lawofnations said:
Most pubs I've been into in Ireland and the UK post smoking bans seemed to be as busy as pre-smoking ban (the Irish ones actually seemed busier.

Although that's just my anecdotal evidence.
Click to expand...

When I flew into Kerry last summer there was a poster campaign reminding people to 'use or lose their locals' (nicer and catchier wording, but i forget). The locals in Tipperary seemed to think that the recent crack-downs on drink-driving and the smoking ban combined have dealt the killer blow.
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I cant have any sympathy with a campaign that thinks drunk driving is ok. If the only way some pubs can stay open is by serving drivers who end up over the limit then they deserve to shut. You will hear a lot of nonsense from rural folk about hiw drink doesnt affect them and how there should be a different alcohol level in rural areas.

Its just anti-social nonsense which results in blood stained wrecks on the side of country lanes.
 
Just to make clear that my comments above are directed at rural publicans and not at the esteemed Yithian.
 
I have always been confused by government policy on pubs, they bang on about drink driving and then let pubs have huge car parks, if they really want to stop drink driving why don't they make people walk to the pub?
 
KarlD said:
I have always been confused by government policy on pubs, they bang on about drink driving and then let pubs have huge car parks, if they really want to stop drink driving why don't they make people walk to the pub?
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Not everyone goes to a pub to drink, I drive to my "local" for the food.

I used to be a publican and it was hard going then (back in the late 90's). Long long hours and very rarely time off. I was a manager for the brewery and even then we were having our budgets cut, the cost of beer going up (and being charged to the publican) etc, cut the hours of staff. It got to the point where I was working behind the bar 6 days a week for 10 hour shifts because the brewery cut our staff wage bill.

Some pubs are closing because the publican cannot afford the staff and simply cannot carry on doing crazy hours, longer opening times (thanks to 24 hour drinking law coming in), demand for more food... etc etc

I got out of the pub trade in 2000 and nothing would tempt me back in. I very rarely go into pubs anymore, mostly because of the worry of violence in pubs, my local has changed hands and the beer is sh*t, I would rather buy something from the offey and drink at home, in comfort without the threat of a pi**ed up chav starting violence.
 
Also, if you're neither a drinker nor a smoker, and not massively into shove ha'penny, pubs frankly don't offer much that offsets the risk of witnessing fights/getting vomited on/being the dessie driver into perpetuity.
 
ramonmercado said:
Just to make clear that my comments above are directed at rural publicans and not at the esteemed Yithian.
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That's understood. I've seen enough alcohol & car related idiocy to understand that laws preventing drink-driving aren't PC-gone mad, but rather the state doing what it ought to.

I am sad at the way that pubs are going, though. I've been living in a country with many bars, but no authentic pub and was depressed to see how many old watering-holes have closed near where i grew up in the last few years. (That's not supposed to read as meaning i have only grown up in the last few years - although it may well be true...).

To return to the proposal in question, do i belive the government are trying to stiffle dissent? No, but I do think that they don't realise what things are truly important in this country. Our culture, such as it is, has proved massively resilient, due, in part, to its ability to morph and adapt to the forces around it. That said, once these old businesses/buildings/pracitices are gone, they'll be very hard to get back.

I can imagine - quite seriously - reality TV shows in 30yrs time with people in retro-dress in mock-traditional pubs and experts waxing intellectual about the cultural norms and social niceties of pub-life.

People need to wake up - booze-it or lose it!
 
I think we have a small example here of where things are headed. I am nearly 48 years old, and would consider myself fairly level headed and objective. Things just felt freer before, even within the last 20 years.
It is true we are more observed than ever before - that does not make me feel any safer at all. We are bombarded with reality televison programmes about what awful things can happen if we go out at night, drive a car, go on holiday,have the builders in, or God forbid, have a bacon sandwich. Why is this? who makes these programmes? I know it is cheap television and I rarely watch this crap personally, but millions must.
The other night there was a dramamentary on BBC4 about the Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918 which I did watch. I found it quite alarming - the message seemed to be that as the authorities were allowed to virtually shut down Manchester and isolate it's people (as much as possible) that city escaped with less deaths than other cities similarly sized. What is in store for us if the second wave of flu hits in the autumn?
Don't even get me started on traffic lights. :evil:
 
jeff544 said:
I think we have a small example here of where things are headed. I am nearly 48 years old, and would consider myself fairly level headed and objective. Things just felt freer before, even within the last 20 years.

... :evil:
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Such a potent potential discourse is exactly why pubs are a v. good thing, in my book. Get it all out in the open, preferably over a few pints of Wadworth's 6X.

I can remember when all this was fields. :)
 
as usual i'm ambivalent!

For the background on the reality of why pubs are dying look at back issues of Private Eye, to see how Nomura (a Japanese bank) was recently the biggest pub landlord in the UK. The rest seem to be mainly owned by other hedge-fund style operations. Naturally they don't care about anything other than profit.

However, although we all love the ideal of the independent pub, anyone remember the glee with which 'mein host' would declaim 'food finished at 2!' on a Sunday? Certain Wetherspoons like the one in Stratford (2012 one) is brilliant; the very good, very cheap food and drink mean it is filled with almost extinct, elderly genuine eastenders. It's a bit like the Starbucks issue, as I see the pitfalls, but again, you can still find cafes who think 'coffee' means instant freeze-dried dust! Blandness of choice is better than no choice at all.
 
We all know that Wetherspoon's have such huge buying power that they can charge next to nothing for their booze, but (according to my dad) they always buy stock which is near the end of its shelf-life, knowing they will probably sell it quickly enough to be safe, and getting it for a hefty discount.
 
About the only conspiracy theory that IMHO could be dismissed out of hand. Two things that it is regarded as completely non-u to discuss in pubs:

1 Politics

2 Religion

If the Gov't really wants to prevent revolution the first thing to be shut down would IMHO be the internet. Also look at the psychology: Brown et. al. think that they are so wonderful they can't see the need for a revolution, perhaps not even the next General Election......
 
jeff544 said:
I think we have a small example here of where things are headed. I am nearly 48 years old, and would consider myself fairly level headed and objective. Things just felt freer before, even within the last 20 years.
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Very well said! I'm for a safer world, but not ALL for a safer world. There's a point for me where the closely-monitored sanitisation of our country will outweigh the lessening of danger it brings. I'd rather live happily in a country where there's an increased chance of, say, death on the roads or by passive smoking or alcohol abuse owing to cheap booze and great bars than sit in a land where I'm miserable because everything is regulated to the extreme for my security and longevity.

Yes., of course I shudder at the days of my youth - my parents in the front of the car barrelling along the motorway, chain-smoking with the windows closed, four of us kids in the back, fighting like eels. And not one of us wearing seatbelts.

But now I make my own safe choices. I choose not to go to pubs where I might get my skull smashed into an inside-out scotch egg for looking at someone. I do not drink and drive, I even avoid driving just after 11pm because of the potential of drunken cross-eyed gigglers hammering home along the verges. Even my child is Harry-Houdinied into a car-seat made of forge-hardened diamonds.

But as jeff544 neatly points out, I want freedom. I want to choose the level of safety. I want facts and statistics and then to make my own choice.
 
I find it difficult to beleive that the govt is quietly forcing pub closures through shadowy policy. I think the pub is struggling because culture has changed. 50 years ago people went straight to the pub from work pretty much every night, it was called a public house because it was...well, a public house. I think it a crying shame and I LOVE pubs, but I fear they will soon be a rarity, especially in villages.
 
Yup. Plus, years ago workers'd regularly have a pub/'liquid' lunch, where nowadays they'd get the sack for coming back into work smelling of drink.

There were several pubs round here which I remember being used at lunchtimes by engineering and factory workers years ago. All being knocked down now, or already gone.
 
Liquid Lunches:

Were pretty common a few short years ago in local government. Don't know if the culture has changed.
 
Sadly I only entered the work force in 2001 and it seems the liquid lunch was already gone by then! But yes, drinking during working hours is considered unacceptable these days and that may well have been a nail in the coffin for the pub trade. In fact drinking generally is much more frowned upon these days.

I must confess that, although I'm quick so say how much I love pubs, I rarely frequent them these days. I used to be a minimum 3 pub nights a week kinda guy. I'm a real ale drinker and I'm more likely to pick up a few Duchys Original Organic ales from Waitrose than go down the boozer.

God, when did I get so old? And so bloody middle class!
 
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