Jokers Wild
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Their will be TWO judgments
1. The Judgment Seat Of Christ is for BELIEVERS
2. The Great White Throne Judgment is for NON-BELIEVERS
Religious Beliefs About Reincarnation / Resurrection
- Thread starter HappyGlades
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1. The Judgment Seat Of Christ is for BELIEVERS
2. The Great White Throne Judgment is for NON-BELIEVERS
kesavaross
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I only know in detail about the Hare Krsna religion (Bhakti Yoga).
In the Vedas is states that at the time of death the subtle body, which contains the soul, mind, intelligence and false ego, is ripped out the gross body and immediately taken for 'judgement' and punishment. Then after that the living entity is awarded the next body according to the consciousness at the time of death.
AmStramGram
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How do you know ? Why should non-believers believe that ? Because it's written in the Bible ? But, then, if we are to trust the Bible, what should we believe when the Bible apparently contradicts itself, which happens regularly from the beginning to the end of the text ? For instance, the book of Genesis 1.20 to 1.26 tells that God created the animals on the 5th (birds & fish) and 6th days (for the rest) and that he created Adam AFTER that (Genesis 1.27). Why then, Genesis 2.18 and 2.19, suddenly states the contrary, e.g, that man was created first, and that animals were created after, in order to serve him ?
Really, I do not mean to offend you. I simply would like to point out that when you claim that "reincarnation is a demonic lie" because the "son of god" told it, the argument will never convince a non believer, since, by definition, a non believer does not share the very belief that gives credence to the argument you rely on (an "authority argument"). At the time of Jesus, there were many preachers who claimed to be "the Messiah". And even to this day, self-proclaimed Messiahs appear here and there. So why should a random fellow trust one instead of the other ? Because of his extraordinary feats ? They all claim extraordinary feats ...
Anybody can tell other people : "You are all wrong. I have the truth. If you believe differently, this is simply because you are deluded idiots", but I doubt this will convince them ... which is a pity if indeed they were wrong !
That's why, if you believe in something, and if you think it is The Ultimate Truth, it is better to start your sentences by "I believe that ...". It will be less offensive to others and might even help you to convince some of them in the long run. And then, of course, relying on rational arguments instead of using circular arguments to strenghten your case would also help.
Now, my personal belief is that we are like tiny dragonflies flying over a small pond, ignorant of the vastness of the ocean. Our knowledge is very limited, and we are forever unable to fathom the true nature of the world that extends far beyond. Whatever we see, hear and smell, we interpret through our little brains. What some will see in shining red, will appear green to others. Whatever we think is conditioned by our former experiences. If nobody had told me of the Bible, I would never suspect its existence. Therefore, we know nothing. Believing that we know something when we know not : that is the worst possible "demonic lie".
If there is an afterlife "judgement", I cannot believe a fair "god" could punish anybody for knowing his own limitations and refusing to abide blindly to any given faith, just because he was told to do so by a son or prophet he never had the opportunity to meet or discuss with.
catseye
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Am I alone in evisaging this as a bit like the Argument sketch from Monty Python?
'You are being judged..'
'Ah, but I'm an unbeliever. I don't believe in your judgement.'
'Well, I'm going to judge you anyway.'
'Carry on, but I shan't take any notice...'
Jokers Wild
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Yes ..... but the unbeliever won't be such a smart-ass & so lippy
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I imagine a number of us - me included - would be. But as a number of us err on the side of non-belief in this particular aspect that's a moot point.
Jokers Wild
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Your standing before Almighty GOD & his Son JESUS at the Great White Throne Judgment & you think you'll be cracking wise-cracks LOL ..... I seriously doubt it
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My point being that I don't believe I will be standing before any of the above. Belief is an entirely subjective matter: what you believe is entirely your own affair, but trying to apply those precepts to others who don't share your belief is at best pointless, and in some cases actively antisocial.
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@Jokers Wild I'm always wary when someone else says they know better than you do what "God" would say or do in a given circumstance. They always leave off with "I guess we'll see who's right" or "fine, take your chances". Neither of which is a good ending to a debate. It's especially worrying when someone decides what someone else will do when faced with "whatever's at the end of the tunnel".
kamalktk
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The body, or the soul, dies once? Because with reincarnation the soul doesnt die when the body does, and is the true self, so you could still believe in both reincarnation and that passage. You could believe that when the soul dies, it faces judgement, could be lots of body deaths in the meantime.
Ascalon
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There is a tribe called the Jaguar People who believe that this is hell and that we are all here as a judgement for the transgressions of a previous life.
Anyway, reincarnation is just as plausible as a sacrificial saviour so as an agnostic, have at it.
I'll get the popcorn.
Anyway, reincarnation is just as plausible as a sacrificial saviour so as an agnostic, have at it.
I'll get the popcorn.
brownmane
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I've had that thought. The older I get, the more I take that as a possibility. Though I don't want to be reincarnated unless it's not here.
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Aren't "reincarnation" and "resurrection" two variations on a common theme? Both are based on the notion of a purposeful protocol in a purported life / death / beyond-death cycle.
The only significant differences relate to:
(a) whether a given person (soul; self; whatever) is afforded a single shot at getting it right versus being fated to try, try, try again until improvement is accomplished;
(b) whether finality consists of a final verdict rendered at some promised (threatened?) future point beyond the veil of death versus eventual "graduation" at a level of refinement achieved; and ...
(c) whether a positive outcome requires allegiance to an ostensibly exclusive human franchise versus unavoidable engagement with an ongoing universal process.
The only significant differences relate to:
(a) whether a given person (soul; self; whatever) is afforded a single shot at getting it right versus being fated to try, try, try again until improvement is accomplished;
(b) whether finality consists of a final verdict rendered at some promised (threatened?) future point beyond the veil of death versus eventual "graduation" at a level of refinement achieved; and ...
(c) whether a positive outcome requires allegiance to an ostensibly exclusive human franchise versus unavoidable engagement with an ongoing universal process.
kesavaross
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Reincarnation can be infered by the questions of where did I come from before birth and what happens to me after death. To say I didn't exist and will cease to exist doesn't answer the question. It just avoids answering it because the mind cannot remember even as a baby, let alone before birth, and no one has ever come back from the dead to give an answer.
That may imply 'nothingness' but it still doesn't explain why I am here, how I got here, or all the different species of life and why is a dog born a dog, and I'm born a human. It is obvious that being born poor or rich, or with this body or that body isn't random. What produces a form of life is different to the qualities that form of life has. Parents may produce one healthy child and then one who is not. Or one who does well at school and one who doesn't.
The fact that this world is full of different species of life can only imply some sort of filtering process. This time round I'm a cat, and you're a horse, and so on. If any think that is not so, a sort of filtering process, then explain all the different forms of life and what happens in that life.
That filtering process can only be by some sort of judgement after the previous life ended. Otherwise, why have I got this life and all that happens to me, and you, yours, which is different to mine. What causes that difference?
In the world of the Hare Krsna's, which I was one for a long time, reincarnation and karma are knitted together. Karma produces or causes reincarnation. That also explains the horrid reason why someone who is/was a good person got murdered, yet evil people live long lives. Maybe that 'good' person in a previous life, of which they have no memory, may have killed the very person in a previous life who now has murdered them in this life. That evil person in this life, they may have been pious in their last life. It all happens according to desire born of the senses and what they came into contact with previously. I know that as 'samsara', the cycle of repeated births and deaths and all that goes in in between.
The new testamnent bible gives no or almost no information about reincarnation or karma except the odd saying such as 'that he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword' which even in biblical times ignores the fact that many soldiers died of old age. Maybe in a future life they will die by the sword? If the Bible is true, then explain why a soldier who has killed by the sword dies of old age?
So for a Christian to comment about reincarnation, their scripture doesn't deal with that. It was about re establishing that there is a God, and that He should be loved. Jesus taught according to time, place and circumstance. In Hare Krsna world, he is exalted as a 'shakti avatesa avatar', an empowered being direct from the spiritual world who should be worshiped as such.
The Bible it is not a scripture for the present time although it still does have potency. It goes into no detail about anything else than there is a God, and He should ne loved. The 'how' is missing. The Old Testament, that is simply an incomplete or unexplained history related to God from an unknown time which modern Christians have to guess at.
2 + 2 = 4 is as true in pre school as it is in post graduate study of advanced mathematics. That doesn't mean that 2 + 2 = 4 is the whole story or knowledge of mathematics. So it is with different religions. According to a persons desires, there is knowledge or not of a God or variations of knowledge in between. I am neutral in that in that what you want to believe, you believe, including not believing or anything else in between. It makes no difference to me. Believe or not as per your desire. That is how this world is.
That may imply 'nothingness' but it still doesn't explain why I am here, how I got here, or all the different species of life and why is a dog born a dog, and I'm born a human. It is obvious that being born poor or rich, or with this body or that body isn't random. What produces a form of life is different to the qualities that form of life has. Parents may produce one healthy child and then one who is not. Or one who does well at school and one who doesn't.
The fact that this world is full of different species of life can only imply some sort of filtering process. This time round I'm a cat, and you're a horse, and so on. If any think that is not so, a sort of filtering process, then explain all the different forms of life and what happens in that life.
That filtering process can only be by some sort of judgement after the previous life ended. Otherwise, why have I got this life and all that happens to me, and you, yours, which is different to mine. What causes that difference?
In the world of the Hare Krsna's, which I was one for a long time, reincarnation and karma are knitted together. Karma produces or causes reincarnation. That also explains the horrid reason why someone who is/was a good person got murdered, yet evil people live long lives. Maybe that 'good' person in a previous life, of which they have no memory, may have killed the very person in a previous life who now has murdered them in this life. That evil person in this life, they may have been pious in their last life. It all happens according to desire born of the senses and what they came into contact with previously. I know that as 'samsara', the cycle of repeated births and deaths and all that goes in in between.
The new testamnent bible gives no or almost no information about reincarnation or karma except the odd saying such as 'that he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword' which even in biblical times ignores the fact that many soldiers died of old age. Maybe in a future life they will die by the sword? If the Bible is true, then explain why a soldier who has killed by the sword dies of old age?
So for a Christian to comment about reincarnation, their scripture doesn't deal with that. It was about re establishing that there is a God, and that He should be loved. Jesus taught according to time, place and circumstance. In Hare Krsna world, he is exalted as a 'shakti avatesa avatar', an empowered being direct from the spiritual world who should be worshiped as such.
The Bible it is not a scripture for the present time although it still does have potency. It goes into no detail about anything else than there is a God, and He should ne loved. The 'how' is missing. The Old Testament, that is simply an incomplete or unexplained history related to God from an unknown time which modern Christians have to guess at.
2 + 2 = 4 is as true in pre school as it is in post graduate study of advanced mathematics. That doesn't mean that 2 + 2 = 4 is the whole story or knowledge of mathematics. So it is with different religions. According to a persons desires, there is knowledge or not of a God or variations of knowledge in between. I am neutral in that in that what you want to believe, you believe, including not believing or anything else in between. It makes no difference to me. Believe or not as per your desire. That is how this world is.
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You've started with the stated principle that Jesus is the son of God, but I assume you can show your working.
How about it if we mortals die once as men but further incarnations are in animal, inanimate or spiritual form?
That would seem not to violate the niceities of holy writ; men die once, but cats die nine times! Who knows how many cracks of the whip a ladybird or an oak tree gets...
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blessmycottonsocks
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The Wiki article states "By doing worthy deeds in their current life, they [ancient Egyptians] would be granted a second life for all of eternity."
But wasn't this second life in the "afterworld" rather than on Earth? That would place ancient Egyptian afterlife beliefs somewhat closer to resurrection than reincarnation. Hollywood is to blame for the notion of reanimated mummies walking the Earth alongside the living!
eburacum
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Curiously, Abraham and the writers of the Old Testament don't seem to have considered the characteristics of the Jewish afterlife very deeply. The souls of the dead are accommodated in Sheol, a dark and quiet subterranean place that doesn't sound very appetising. In many ways it sounds a lot like the ancient Greek concept of Hades, which is filled with rather mournful shades, and is visited by several Greek heroes in an attempt to recover particular individuals or gain knowledge, but it isn't somewhere you'd want to stay.
One example of contact with Sheol in the Old Testament is the summoning of the spirit of Samuel by the Witch of Endor. When Samuel turns up, he seems a bit grumpy (to say the least) but gives no indication of what conditions are like in the afterlife.
It is not until the Second Temple period that ideas of judgement and (yes) reincarnation in one own body began to surface, but this would not happen until after the coming of the Messiah. So I really can't agree that Abraham would have been particularly concerned with judgement or the afterlife at all.
One example of contact with Sheol in the Old Testament is the summoning of the spirit of Samuel by the Witch of Endor. When Samuel turns up, he seems a bit grumpy (to say the least) but gives no indication of what conditions are like in the afterlife.
It is not until the Second Temple period that ideas of judgement and (yes) reincarnation in one own body began to surface, but this would not happen until after the coming of the Messiah. So I really can't agree that Abraham would have been particularly concerned with judgement or the afterlife at all.
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Sollywos
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Er it wasn't Jesus saying that it was St Paul or whoever wrote the letter (possibly) Barnabas that made that assertion.
Cochise
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Being a - highly unorthodox - Christian - I only take as instruction the words of Christ. I can't for a minute believe the Bible (or any other religious text) is literally true.
Most of the hellfire and damnation stuff is created by religion to control the slavish believers. Christianity is my faith, not my religion - I believe the structures of religions are earthly control mechanisms by those in or seeking power to keep the proles in line.
I have personal reasons for my faith which I have explained a couple of times. I don't have any desire to try and convince others. Although I do appreciate it when people accept my reasons are sufficient for me.
Coal
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Perhaps 'faith' as opposed to 'ideology' (rather than 'religion').
'Faith' minds it's own beeswax, 'ideology' preaches and sticks it's nose in.
Victory
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The Old Testament, which we call Tanach, has many commentaries/rules/guidelines which go into the "How", as it pertains to the daily life of a Jew.
The Talmudic books are regarded by us as the part of the first five books (Torah) which were written down at a later date, than the date Genesis to Deuteronomy were written down.
The actual knowledge was handed down at the same time.
We have a lot of details of what you label as "how"; from rules about eating, sleeping, going to the toilet, praying, fasting, hair cutting etc. to be done in the correct way of holiness.
@eburacum
We have a fair depth of writing about reincarnation.
The ideas are in the Torah, and commentented on and expounded on through Kabbalah and other mystical knowledge.
A literal reading of the Torah is not going to shed much light on things, it has various layers of knowledge that have to be read in different contexts, and for sure in Hebrew.
Abraham would have been profoundly aware of reincarnation.
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catseye
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I don't think I can bring myself to believe anything just because of someone else's say so. I would want to come to my own reasoning and belief system which, as yet, I have not. I fully support anyone else's desire to believe in whatever they wish, as long as they don't try to persuade me that only their way is the true way.
Which covers Forteanism as much as religion really.
Which covers Forteanism as much as religion really.
Coal
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MorningAngel
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This made me chuckle.
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JahaRa
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What Stu Neville said. Some days your kind of proclamations bother me other days they make me laugh.
catseye
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If your god is as all knowing and loving as he is popularly supposed to be, then I have no doubt that, in the case of his existence, he will probably be laughing at my wise cracks.
But, since I don't believe in him, I have no worries.
pandacracker
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Reading this thread has reminded me of this bit from Marlowe's "Dr Faustus"
Ah, Pythagoras' metempsychosis, were that true,
This soul should fly from me, and I be chang'd
Unto some brutish beast!174 all beasts are happy,
For, when they die,
Their souls are soon dissolv'd in elements;
But mine must live still to be plagu'd in hell
Ah, Pythagoras' metempsychosis, were that true,
This soul should fly from me, and I be chang'd
Unto some brutish beast!174 all beasts are happy,
For, when they die,
Their souls are soon dissolv'd in elements;
But mine must live still to be plagu'd in hell
kesavaross
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That is interesting.