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Richard Dawkins

colpepper1 said:
ted_bloody_maul said:
Christopher Hitchens might tick one or two of those boxes.

HaHaHa...HaHa...Ha. You are joking, aren't you? Mr Toad might build bridges with the piper at the gates of dawn. Hitchens is king of everyone who doesn't agree is stupid, he makes Dawkins sound like Kofu Annan.

I'm not sure what that last sentence is even supposed to mean so I'll borrow a tactic and simply ignore it although I won't borrow the tactic of ignoring what I've actually said myself.

You said there were no "urbane, likeable, compelling voices putting his points across who gain air time,". I'd certainly say Hitchens was urbane and so would this critical Christian, for example. And this one. And this one. I expect they're probably not the only ones. I might go so far as to say he was compelling - even likeable - as would many others, I suspect. Just because I can't be bothered listing them doesn't mean they don't etc

Maybe the reason you encounter so many angry atheists is that they get frustrated trying to converse with someone who ignores their own arguments as soon as they're made.
 
It's a personal thing but I can't overlook someone's failings no matter how robustly they argue their case. Same with politics, if yer man is an arrogant tosspot I start to look for flaws in his argument on the basis the thing that lead him to his conclusions is likely to be screwed along the way - even if I started out agreeing with the premise. Hitchens comes across as overbearing. He'd prefer winning an argument to being right once the wind is in his sails, something that eludes many in his calling.

I also suspect Hitchens has something Pauline about him, violent changes of heart which he'd reverse engineer as a reconsidered appraisal of the evidence, even when there's no evidence either way. I wouldn't be in the least surprised to hear Hitch undergoing a Damascene flash and trying out for the priesthood. He cares too much, mostly about their own opinions. Decent rhetorician but too much self love for my taste.

What comes first, the bile or the issue? Most militant rationalists are dyspeptic to begin with and religion gives them a perfect target. If it wasn't belief they'd find something else to cheese them off.
 
colpepper1 said:
Fascinating place for the student of the humanity.
I'd have thought a very small sample of a miniscule sub section of the English speaking population of the world who were interested enough to respond, and therefore representative of bugger all. :roll:
 
I realise its probably just me, but did it cross anyone elses mind that the bid by Dawkins and Hitchens re: arrest of the Pope could be related to the recent leaking of the inflammatory foreign office leak?

By which I mean the powers that be, worried by the Pinoche precedent are trying to piss off the papal organisers to the point they don't visit - thereby side-stepping a whole shitstorm of either provincial or worldwide finger pointing.
 
colpepper1 said:
Fascinating place for the student of the humanity.

colpepper1 said:
My sneers at Dawkins are driven by the fact so many here don't appear to see what I see.

colpepper1 said:
Five geeks on an internet forum does not denote 'everyone else'.

So your "fascinating" study of humanity and the "so many here" that disagree with your opinion of Dawkins are represented by me and the other four geeks (which I presume is a rather lame attempt at an insult)?
 
colpepper1 said:
What comes first, the bile or the issue? Most militant rationalists are dyspeptic to begin with and religion gives them a perfect target. If it wasn't belief they'd find something else to cheese them off.

I've never met, talked to or heard any militant rationalists (dyspeptic or otherwise), let alone "most". Have you? For someone who regularly rails against generalisations made about the religious, you seem to throw them out freely enough when it comes to those on the other side of the fence.
 
There's a fence? I really think I should have been told.
So much for an unsullied search for truth.
 
Dawkins related squabbling hived away from the Pope thread and grafted to this one.
misterwibble said:
Col mate, if you think this is a bear pit, you must have lead a very sheltered internet life.
Quite right. The mod team and I have devoted a great deal of time and effort into dragging this place away from being a bear-pit, and keeping it away. And I have to agree that for someone that vilifies Dawkins so much for his attitude toward others, Colpepper does seem somewhat afflicted with mirror-blindness.

Enough with the condescension, now. Thank you very much.
 
stuneville said:
And I have to agree that for someone that vilifies Dawkins so much for his attitude toward others, Colpepper does seem somewhat afflicted with mirror-blindness.

Enough with the condescension, now. Thank you very much.

Enough indeed. Speaking as someone who has taken Fortean Times since its earliest days and been an enthusiasic collector of anomalies for rather longer, it's painful to watch the magazine's transformation from counter-cultural stalwart to junk ad carrying pop culture artifact.

There has always been a strong and valuable strand of scepticism to Forteana, but that's a long way from accomodating one the forum's boards as an outpost of scientific rationalism of a militant kind. My sceptical antennae are in full working order, especially regarding imported rent-a-mobs and the lickspittle moderating that appeases them.
Some people and some subjects really do seem beyond reproach. Before you take my insertion of Dawkins in threads as arbitrary or inappropriate, I suggest you have a think about what this board is actually for.
 
colpepper1 said:
..Some people and some subjects really do seem beyond reproach. Before you take my insertion of Dawkins in threads as arbitrary or inappropriate, I suggest you have a think about what this board is actually for.
It's not a free-for-all platform for you to have a go at Dawkins, for a start. Look, I don't like Dawkins either, but just bringing him up out of the blue as a prop to support your own opinions regardless of the topic at hand actually erodes your own standing.

As I've always said, we don't have sacred cows. You can discuss what you want, and you can hold such opinions as you want, but we expect people to couch their discussions in a way that's respectful towards other posters, however vehemently you may oppose their views. Hence the line about condescension.
 
I don't like Dawkins, I think the pope is a reactionary bigot and I loath criminals being depicted as religious martyrs, all of which I've made quite clear in the appropriate threads. My mistrust of those who presume to speak for us is complete and unequivocal, for which I've been called a post-modernist and worse.

Because I detect an ideological bent to this board does not mean I'm paranoid.
Whatever, you're missing where the condescension is really coming from.
 
colpepper1 said:
Because I detect an ideological bent to this board does not mean I'm paranoid.
Whatever, you're missing where the condescension is really coming from.
I never said you were paranoid: however, I disagree that there's any mass ideological element to this board - individuals may have cardinal views (all puns entirely unintentional, BTW) but on the whole I think this forum actually does a remarkable job in balancing itself out. The accusations of skepticism, such as they are, tend to be from those who come expecting us instantly accept any proposition without debate or advocacy - and as you must agree, Forteanism is most certainly not about basic credulity.

Re the condescension - your posts do have, to most other posters, an overtone of disdain for those that don't share your views. I'm not talking about meta- or crypto-condescension here, I'm talking about the tone you directly take with others. And I'm asking you, politely, to alter the tone of your posts - not the content, but the tone. Or is that just more "lickspittle moderating", with the aim of mob appeasement?

PS - I may be a while responding should you reply, as I will shortly be going to church.

edited for punctuation
 
So long as the tone is moderated fairly I have no problem moderating my own.
 
Richard Dawkins and the atheist school
Dawkins has said he'd like to set up an atheist school. But would it really be able to teach religion as anthropology, without bias?
Nick Spencer guardian.co.uk, Friday 25 June 2010 13.29 BST

So, Richard Dawkins has promised – no, that's too strong – intimated that he might set up an atheist school, as he would presumably have the right to under new government "free school" plans. During a chat on mumsnet he responded to a few suggestions that he start "an atheist free school" by saying he liked the idea very much.

This might seem odd coming from someone who has said (indeed said in the same discussion) that "faith schools … are divisive… [and] encourage children to segregate into tribes". How exactly is a faith school divisive in a way that an atheist school wouldn't be?

Muddled as this may seem, there is a kind of logic to it. Dawkins went on to explain that though he liked the idea of an atheist free school he would "prefer to call it a free-thinking free school". "Free-thinking" has been the adjective of choice for the irreligious in Britain since the late 17th century. It was coined to describe the uninhibited mental activity that was supposedly permitted only beyond the borders of established religion. Once upon a time a credible label, postmodernism came along in the 20th century and pointed out that there is no thinking that is truly free, unencumbered by tradition or authority, convention or culture.

Dawkins, however, is scornful of postmodernism. "I would never want to indoctrinate children in atheism", he told Mumsnet. "Instead, children should be taught to ask for evidence, to be sceptical, critical, open-minded. If children understand that beliefs should be substantiated with evidence, as opposed to tradition, authority, revelation or faith, they will automatically work out for themselves that they are atheists."

The problem here is not so much arrogance as a failure of the imagination, a failure to recognise that you can be sceptical, critical, open-minded, etc and still come to the conclusion that God exists or that, for example, Christianity is true. As Peter Hitchens observes in the introduction to his recent book The Rage Against God, "the difficulties of the anti-theists begin when they try to engage with anyone who does not agree with them, when their reaction is often a frustrated rage that the rest of us are so stupid".

So, how would this free-thinking school be different? It would, Dawkins explained, "teach comparative religion, and teach it properly without bias". In case you were wondering, "without bias" means "as a branch of anthropology". What about religious texts? How exactly do you teach them "without bias"? Quite simply, you teach that they are untrue. "The Bible should be taught, but emphatically not as reality", Dawkins explained. "It is fiction, myth, poetry, anything but reality."

This is a legitimate opinion – although one from which millions would dissent – but to imagine it is neutral, objective or self-evidently correct is absurd. To arrive at (and teach) such ideas is to take a whole series of contestable positions on a range of theological, philosophical and scientific questions.

To claim that an atheist school would "teach comparative religion, and teach it properly without any bias towards particular religions" is so naive as to beggar belief. Does it mean you should dedicate equal time to Zoroastrianism as to Christianity, take the claims of Judaism as seriously as those of Jedis?

[...]

None of this invalidates Dawkins's desire to set up an atheist school. Indeed, such a thing might be welcome if only as a way of dragging atheist presuppositions from the skirts of secular neutrality and exposing them to a little more public scrutiny. The only test it would need to pass would be to show that it was capable of dealing with other views and positions with respect and grace. And of this, I have my doubts.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ist-school
 
Re: The Bible - "It is fiction, myth, poetry, anything but reality."

I think Dawkins is being selective when he talks of the Bible and I hope he means that the bits that are Fiction, myth and poetry are taught as fiction, myth and poetry and the bits that are philosophy are taught as philosophy, and the bits that are theology are taught as theology, and the bits that are history are taught as history etc...
 
rjmrjmrjm said:
Re: The Bible - "It is fiction, myth, poetry, anything but reality."

I think Dawkins is being selective when he talks of the Bible and I hope he means that the bits that are Fiction, myth and poetry are taught as fiction, myth and poetry and the bits that are philosophy are taught as philosophy, and the bits that are theology are taught as theology, and the bits that are history are taught as history etc...

But which bits are taught as fiction, myth and poetry? Likewise theology and history etc
 
Richard Dawkins: 'I never meet people who disagree with me'
Woodstock's first big-name speaker charmed and ruffled feathers in equal measure last night
By Andy McSmith
Thursday, 16 September 2010

Richard Dawkins seemed to be saying last night that he rather envied those teachers who have to drill irregular Latin verbs into the heads of schoolchildren. At least they do not have to teach their discipline against the background noise of well-organised and expensively funded pressure groups who deny that ancient Rome even existed and claim that all languages sprang into existence simultaneously more recently than that.

But that, in a sense, is the fate of the scientist who wants to teach evolution. In the USA, 40 per cent of the population believes that every word of the Bible is literally true.

Professor Dawkins recently visited an Islamic school in Leicester – "a lovely school, beautifully appointed, a lot of money spent on it, a lovely headmaster" – where no one among the staff and pupils, not even the science teacher, believes in evolution.

There he was informed that the Prophet had said that salt and fresh water do not mix, and therefore it must be true. He wished afterwards that he had had the presence of mind to send for some salt water and fresh water and mix them in front of their unbelieving eyes.

The audience that the Professor faced last night presented less of a challenge. He was giving the opening lecture of this year's Woodstock Festival, in Oxfordshire, where it was a safe bet that the crowd who filled the Orangery in Blenheim Palace to capacity included a negligible proportion of creationists.

He admitted, when questioned about the reception he gets travelling in the US Bible Belt, that, "nobody who disagrees ever comes to my lectures – or if they do, they keep very quiet afterwards". 8)

In places like Alabama and Oklahoma, he pulls in crowds of people who take pleasure in finding that, for one evening, they are not in a minority. In Woodstock, he pulled in an audience who were there to enjoy the wit and erudition with which he attacked the creationist myth.

When asked by the chairman, David Freeman, how he kept his cool when talking to people who refused to open their minds to scientific argument, the Professor said that actually he does not always. He quoted in his defence of his own sharp tongue a sentence written by The Independent's Johann Hari: "I respect you as a person too much to respect your ridiculous beliefs." :twisted:

There was one question from the audience which provoked a brief flash of the anger and rudeness which has given this generally mild man his notoriety.

A lady wanted to know how evolution could explain phenomena like the clotting of blood, which – she claimed – required a number of agents all to be present at the same time, and if one were taken away, the blood would not clot.

That, he retorted, was "a creationist lie". And even if it were true, it would not prove the existence of an intelligent designer. "You have got to look at the detail," he added. "You have got to stop being lazy and saying, 'Oh, I can't explain that so God did it.'"

He was challenged on whether it had ever crossed his mind that he could be wrong. Scientists are always getting things wrong, he replied. Two centuries hence, scientific knowledge will tell us that much of what we think is right has been disproved.

But in the contest between evolution and creationism, he said, he thought it "highly unlikely" that the particular direction scientific progress will take "will just happen to be the beliefs of a tribe of Bronze Age goat herds". 8)

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 80451.html
 
rynner2 said:
There was one question from the audience which provoked a brief flash of the anger and rudeness which has given this generally mild man his notoriety... he thought it "highly unlikely" that the particular direction scientific progress will take "will just happen to be the beliefs of a tribe of Bronze Age goat herds".

Mild mannered my arse. He's a snippy tart playing to other tweedy bourgeois know-alls through a lickspittle media. They should bring back Ask the Family and have him in the chair. Arsehole.
 
colpepper1 said:
rynner2 said:
There was one question from the audience which provoked a brief flash of the anger and rudeness which has given this generally mild man his notoriety... he thought it "highly unlikely" that the particular direction scientific progress will take "will just happen to be the beliefs of a tribe of Bronze Age goat herds".

Mild mannered my arse. He's a snippy tart playing to other tweedy bourgeois know-alls through a lickspittle media. They should bring back Ask the Family and have him in the chair. Arsehole.

What a stunning rational and considered deconstruction of Dawkins beliefs!
 
ramonmercado said:
What a stunning rational and considered deconstruction of Dawkins beliefs!

Nothing rational about it, he's a loathsome toad who can only see extremism where most people see worthy dullness and touts his right sort credentials as some kind of proof he knows what he's talking about. He should stick to Round Britain Quiz or Quote Unquote. A complete shit stirrer passing himself off as a rationalist.
 
I'm not sure whether this constitutes an ad hominem attack or an ad infinitum one.

Does Dawkins have much to say on Pavlovian conditioning?
 
ted_bloody_maul said:
Does Dawkins have much to say on Pavlovian conditioning?

I bet he could talk for hours on it. Reduce a genuine attack on his sneakiness to a half-baked syndrome.
 
colpepper1 said:
ramonmercado said:
What a stunning rational and considered deconstruction of Dawkins beliefs!

Nothing rational about it, he's a loathsome toad who can only see extremism where most people see worthy dullness and touts his right sort credentials as some kind of proof he knows what he's talking about. He should stick to Round Britain Quiz or Quote Unquote. A complete shit stirrer passing himself off as a rationalist.

It was an ironic comment on your diatribe. Keep it up! You sound barking!
 
ramonmercado said:
Keep it up! You sound barking!

What is this anyway, the Rationalist Daily? Dawkins has reduced all belief to bronze age goat herding. That kind of smart-arse stuff plays well to his acolytes but it's his usual shit stirring. Or is he just a bad comedian?
 
colpepper1 said:
ramonmercado said:
Keep it up! You sound barking!

What is this anyway, the Rationalist Daily? Dawkins has reduced all belief to bronze age goat herding. That kind of smart-arse stuff plays well to his acolytes but it's his usual shit stirring. Or is he just a bad comedian?
If Dawkins really has "reduced all belief to bronze age goat herding", while your only defence of religion appears to be a continuing, concerted and monotone ad hom attack on one of its critics, that self same Dawkins, then he is probably winning the argument.

:lol:
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
If Dawkins really has "reduced all belief to bronze age goat herding", while your only defence of religion appears to be a continuing, concerted and monotone ad hom attack on one of its critics, that self same Dawkins, then he is probably winning the argument.

:lol:

Not so fast, this isn't about me, it's about Dawkins. He's a modernist, old = stupid, new = good can be the only conclusion to his 'joke'. My attacks on him are based on that kind of belief in progress rot. Since when has bronze age society been a synonym for wrong? Given that the pope's visit is open season I think I can be forgiven a pop at Dawkins' self-righteous high table priggery.
 
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