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Roman Soldiers At The Treasurer's House, York

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colpepper1

Gone But Not Forgotten
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The Treasurer's House Ghosts. I really want to believe a Roman legion walks through a York cellar.
 
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The Treasurer's House ghosts are featured in the TV series 'Ghosthunters' - a British series from the 90s, not the modern American one - in the form of a detailed interview with the former plumber.

Much more interesting than just reading about it in a book or online! The man describes his abject terror at what he was seeing. If it's a yarn, it's well-told. ;)
 
escargot1 said:
The Treasurer's House ghosts are featured in the TV series 'Ghosthunters' - a British series from the 90s, not the modern American one - in the form of a detailed interview with the former plumber.

Much more interesting than just reading about it in a book or online! The man describes his abject terror at what he was seeing. If it's a yarn, it's well-told. ;)
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I second that, by the way - I saw it first on Brit TV while working in London a few years back. I just wish we'd have some good Fortean TV programs down here as well! And no, I don't have Foxtel, that's probably why I'm missing out. :roll:
 
There is no way that the Treasurer's House incident could ever be debunked; neither can it be corroborated, as Harry Martindale was the only witness.
I have no doubt that Martindale made it all up- and good luck to him too.

Incidentally the Treasurrer's house is one place where I had an inexplicable experience myself- in one of the haunted rooms, I discovered an ice-cold spot floating in mid-air with no apparent cause.

Being the dyed-in-the-wool skeptic that I am, I have no doubt that it was a completely subjective experience; but if I was a believer, that strange acausal sensation might have convinced me that a ghost was present in that room.
 
eburacum said:
I have no doubt that Martindale made it all up- and good luck to him too.
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That's interesting. Do you base that on Martindale being an unreliable character, a 'romancer' by nature or from scepticism of such phenomena which makes his account unlikely to the point of impossibility, or some other factor.
This isn't a dig by the way, I'm genuinely interested in your conclusions re. The Tresurer's House Romans and welcome any information.
 
No; he is not an unreliable character at all. He is a well-respected member of York's society, a former policeman and Court official. His story has done wonders for the Ghost Walk industry in our town, and he obviously enjoys telling it. By now he might even believe it himself.
 
eburacum said:
No; he is not an unreliable character at all. He is a well-respected member of York's society, a former policeman and Court official. His story has done wonders for the Ghost Walk industry in our town, and he obviously enjoys telling it. By now he might even believe it himself.
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You're teasing us! The story that's come down to us is Martindale reported the incident to the house custodian at the time who said, 'you look like you've seen the Romans' or something similar. It would be interesting to know whether there was an existing legend - at the house, not just of the lost IX legion - which HM embroidered. It seems risky citing a third party as that person is either in on the gag, can counter the claim, or if deceased his friends and relatives can rubbish it.

I don't buy Martindale as an invention of the York tourist industry, the incident was certainly reported in print by the early seventies as far as I recall, probably earlier, though he may enjoy the limelight since. I haven't heard him speak in the flesh so can't judge the man's charachter. It would be interesting to hear when the first public report of the 1953 event took place or of a reliable witness to the story coming forward.

The preposterous nature of the event is intriguing; such reports tend to fizzle away in embarrassment under maturing years and closer scrutiny but this one has stayed the course with an individual who has something to lose even by advertising the matter. That's not to suggest he didn't make it up but I was fishing for whether your cycnicism of the case was based on something firmer than there's no such thing as ghosts.
 
Harry Martindale actually worked on the Ghost Walks himself in the 70s and 80s, so he isn't exactly a product of the tourist industry as such; it is more accurate to say that he has been instrumental in boosting tourism himself.

I wonder where the Ghost Walk tradition first started- certainly York is the first town where I encountered them, although that is just my unreliable memories. I think they are great, by the way, although often far from reliable as far as facts go.
 
eburacum said:
I think they are great, by the way, although often far from reliable as far as facts go.
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I'd certainly agree with that! When I visited the house the NT had restored it to inter-war condition, a typical wealthy gents pad of the 1930s. Someone must know if there are haunting reports from that era or earlier, or indeed subsequent ones. The internet assures us there are (both) but I'd like to hear evidence from the notes of previous owners or staff, or from more recent ones like Trust workers. And who was the house custodian who said 'You look like you've seen the Romans?'
It would be good to interview Mr Martindale in a dialogue and put these questions to him. It's such a 'big' ghost story I'm inclined to believe it for its sheer nerve but the holes in the plot certainly need patching.
 
The reason why it seems to me that this case sprang from the fertile imagination of Mr Martindale is that it is so unlike any other.

Roman ghosts are rare enough; and to have a whole legion of them, walking up to their calves in modern concrete is so unique that it seems to be a deliberate invention rather than a traditional ghost. Yet he also implies that others had seen it before him.
 
I see where you're coming from but there is a tradition of ghosts treading former routes and being partly visible and I found a number of Roman ones last night like this so the potential for them exists (whatever 'they' are).

Some questions might be: Reports suggest Martindale's observation went against current thinking regarding military dress in the Empire, i.e. he saw bedraggled troops whereas a cliched depiction would have imagined the Hollywood version and that his vision was subsequently proved to be the more realistic by historians. Is this true? What was 1953 thinking on the role of mercenaries and overseas troops and their dress and how far had legends of the 'lost IX' insinuated themselves into local lore.

'Others have seen them'. Who are these people and who made the claim of multiple sightings originally? Was there word of mouth knowledge that the Treasurer's House cellar or the basements of other buildings in the vicinity were thought to be haunted, or was HM a young dupe wound up by his colleagues about fitting pipes in a cold, dark, lonely spot?

When was the Roman road discovered? Was it subsequent to Harry Martindale's sighting or had there been recent archaeological evidence that may have linked the two factors in his mind?

I've tried to discover any obvious anniversary about the time he claims to have seen them because I'm extremely dubious about convenient dates given the Julian calendar and the lack of precise evidence in Tacitus and elsewhere. He doesn't appear to have made any links which is a point in favour. I'd have thought local gossip may have undone him or his sightings by now or that the story may have grown legs with re-telling but that doesn't appear to be the case. An intriguing one all round.
 
Part of I, Claudius, written in 1934, describes the ragged appearance of troops on the outer frontier (in Germany). I don't think everyone thought that legionaries looked like toy soldiers all the time, even way back in the Fifties.
 
I'm guessing most folk here have heard of the Roman soldier ghosts seen by the late Harry Martindale at the Treasurer's House, in York.

But for those who haven't; in 1953, an apprentice installing a heating system in the cellar of the Treasurer's House, saw part of a Roman legion - at a floor level slightly below the current one - appear through a wall in the cellar, walk past, and then out the other wall. Apparently a Roman road ran right underneath the building, at that point. Although that wasn't discovered til many years later.

He seemed an unusually credible witness. His description of the soldiers included a certain shaped shield which he was told in the 50s, couldn't be right and was inaccurate - later proven to be absolutely correct.

Today, we were at the Treasurer's House - largely full of uninteresting early 20thC industrialist's tacky possessions - and TBH the only really interesting thing was a video of Harry recounting the story, in the cellar. I've heard this many times, since the 70s, being fairly local. But at the end of the video a little detail I don't recall hearing before. Apparently, when the young Harry emerged, the then-curator took one look at him and said: "By the look of you, you've seen the Romans?" I don't know why but I found this fascinating. That Harry's story became so famous - and yet others had previously been witnessing the same thing. And his version is the only one that stands. I'm guessing it wouldn't be hard to track down who was the curator in 1953 and presumably they are long dead. Maybe had already gone by the time Harry came out publicly with his story - not til 20 years after he saw what he saw.

The other thing that made Harry credible, to me, was when he said that he was terrified they would look at him and see he was there... as that was how I felt the time I saw a full body apparition. It seems like a natural reaction.

But I wonder how many other locals, might still be alive, who worked in that building, might have seen it and could have come forward and verified it? Given that the curator knew, at a glance, what Harry had probably just seen...
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/features/by-the-look-of-you-youve-seen-the-romans
Don't really know what my point is here - just that it's always been one of my favourite ghost stories and it was interesting to finally go to the Treasurer's House (as a local you tend to not do the touristy things) and see the place where one of my favourite ghost stories happened.
 
I feel rather jealous, GITHM. That would be great to sniff up the atmosphere in the Treasurer's House.

I may be a tad obsessive* but if you're interested I transcribed the video here (edit - the one from the Ghost Hunters series)
http://forteanfindings.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/transcript-of-ghosthunters-legends-of.html

*I think it's because I love to hear what people actually said, rather than the kind of one-line summaries you usually get in collections of ghost sightings.

It's interesting that the website you link to says "many people have seen the roman soldiers". Is that true? Did you hear about other people who'd seen them? 'Many' sounds like quite a claim.
 
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Eponastill said:
*I think it's because I love to hear what people actually said, rather than the kind of one-line summaries you usually get in collections of ghost sightings.
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excellent resource! thank you Eponastill!
 
Eponastill said:
I feel rather jealous, GITHM. That would be great to sniff up the atmosphere in the Treasurer's House.

I may be a tad obsessive* but if you're interested I transcribed the video here
http://forteanfindings.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/transcript-of-ghosthunters-legends-of.html

*I think it's because I love to hear what people actually said, rather than the kind of one-line summaries you usually get in collections of ghost sightings.

It's interesting that the website you link to says "many people have seen the roman soldiers". Is that true? Did you hear about other people who'd seen them? 'Many' sounds like quite a claim.
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You know, that's kind of what I was curious about, as well. Why we haven't heard other people's accounts of it when it is: (a) such a well known account, possibly one of the most famous in the world and (b)Harry did'nt seem to lose any credibility when he 'came out' as having seen the Romans. You'd think others who had also seen it would be encouraged?
 
I remember a tv program about 50 years back and it showed the work going
on under York Minster, at one point "and I cant remember if I saw it or not"
a line of Roman soldiers was seen to walk through the shot but appeared to
walk at a different level, some seem to have seen this on tv but others watching the same
program did not, those that did said how marvelous it was and could not imagine how
it was done so well, other said it never happened and it was quit a talking point
for some time.
 
Hmm yes it makes you want to call BS on the claim that there have been many other sightings of them, and that it's either wishful thinking or PR publicity.

I know in that video Harry's retelling his experience for the millionth time, and in a way he's retelling his story of the experience, it being so long ago. But he is very straightforwardly convincing. And he says he had no prior expectation of anything so weird, he didn't even know it was a roman road under him. He was concentrating on something else. And what did he gain by it, only the opportunity for people to think he was bonkers. So I really want to believe him, that he did experience something. And if he genuinely didn't know anything about Romans being there, then it is very interesting. It smacks of the good old 'stone tape' thing.

Looking at the transcript, it's the narrator that says that Harry went to the curator of the museum, and "it turns out he was by no means alone in having seen the legionnaires". But that's not actually saying that some other people had reported them from the cellar, it's a vague statement. It could mean that people had seen Roman ghosts elsewhere in York?
 
What I like about this thread, is that I had a memory of the story, probably gleaned somewhere around 1980 from a large number of Fortean books I collected, but I'd forgotten every other detail, but retained the basic story and an image of it. Nice to have the blanks filled in.
 
Coal said:
I liked that. I'd love to see the video if you can point me at it. Do we know anything about Harry?
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Harry gives his account in the TV series 'Ghosthunters' which I used to have on DVD. Someone borrowed it and then rudely died so I didn't get it back. You can probably still find it somewhere.

Ghosthunters

The series relies a lot on witnesses' own testimony, which is nice but does involve a couple of scenes of blokes sprawled comfortable on their sofas in very short baggy shorts. :eek:
 
Coal said:
I liked that. I'd love to see the video if you can point me at it. Do we know anything about Harry?
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thankyou, yes, I do believe it's the very video skinny has found, above.

His obituary in the Northern Echo says he became a policeman. And they're supposed to be reliable and honest aren't they.

Re: Ghost Hunters - I've been working through the series transcribing them. It's quite a soothing process. I should go and do the washing up though shouldn't I.
 
escargot1 said:
Harry gives his account in the TV series 'Ghosthunters' which I used to have on DVD. Someone borrowed it and then rudely died so I didn't get it back. You can probably still find it somewhere.

Ghosthunters

The series relies a lot on witnesses' own testimony, which is nice but does involve a couple of scenes of blokes sprawled comfortable on their sofas in very short baggy shorts. :eek:
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Interesting that (you tube). I need to disregard the hyperbole and non-sequiturs that litter the narration...

A few things occurred. One could interpret the experience as a kind of fit. He heard a note, atonal, fell off the ladder and the saw the (very small) soldiers. It's similar in some way to some description of fairy sightings, a type of which is not unlike the onset of a migraine or a small fit or seizure.

Although the account is straightforward, there's a remarkable lack of hand and body movement, which is typically associated with deception. But, this might just be the natural shyness of a regular man in front of a camera (so I'm undecided). He talked of paralysing fear without any trace of such in his demeanor. I've spoken with popel who've been really scared in the past and it shows when they revisit it. I like that the soldiers look tired, rough and pissed off. Not unlike any national servicemen probably.

I'd like to have seen his original statement, word-for-word. On whole though I believe that he believes what he saw.

The whole 'He knew nothing about Roman soldiers' thing is a hand-wavy statement. Has anyone checked? Has he gone through his whole life and never seen anything Roman? In York? Doing history at school? Only historians knew about round shields?

Took me five minutes to find this 1917 engraving with some round shields:

gallic-wars-58-50-bc-roman-soldiers-and-equipment-caesaar-in-gaul-E0T6RY.jpg


Just sayin'

Where's the corroboration on the "You look like you've seen the Roman soldiers" thing. Names? Follow up? Anyone else seen them and do the descriptions tally?

It's a great story which leave an imprint on ones mind, but there's a lot of other things that have never really been crossed off the list of possibilities or followed up.
 
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