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Roswell solved

And there are even more people than that whose stories changed...

Sheridan Cavitt

Cavitt for many years denied any involvement, even denying he was at the base at the time. This all changed in 1994 when the Air Force interviewed him. Now he said that he was involved, but denied ever meeting rancher Brazel or going out with Marcel.

... And perhaps the most dramatic example of suddenly rectified recollection can be found with Mac Brazel himself, who abruptly remembered that he didn't remember what he thought he remembered, after enjoying a week of the tender ministrations of the military:

http://www.ufocasebook.com/Roswell2.html

-------------------------------

Notes on Arthur Exon, who died recently.

http://www.roswellproof.com/Exon.html
 
If this thread carries on the way it is doing, the thread title ( Roswell solved ) will come true. The more it has gone on the more doubt over a UFO crashing at Roswell grows. Just think what it could do to the UFO world ( and the Roswell industry ) if we actually managed to successfully debunk the case here on the forum. If we debunk it we must get an article in FT to spread the word 8) . However we could be silenced by those benefiting from the Roswell UFO industry :lol: hopefully with lots of cash.
 
I'm afraid it's quite impossible to successfully debunk Roswell. The most you can do is set the original incident in the context of the 1947 "flying disc" hysteria - when people were mistaking circular saws for flying saucers and calling in army intelligence to deal with schoolboy pranks - and highlight the discrepancies in the witnesses testimonies.

Roswell has now become a myth of such epic proportions that simple things like facts and logic will never deflate it.
 
The Fortean Times "debunked" Roswell (and ufology in general) a very long time ago, but more about that later.

Roswell, and indeed UFOs generally, are an industry. Of course they are, most of the modern world is industry, media, automobiles, commerce, computers, information, petrochemicals, everything from breakfast cereal to nuclear warheads is industry. Ideas are industry. UFOs are industry. Debunkerism is also an industry, a failed one. However unlike most failed industries, debunkerism at least has the martyr's sense of betrayal for solace. If a manufacturing company fails, the desolated owner might blame only himself, ("Hmm, I guess wooden chimneys were a pretty stupid idea after all.") If a book doesn't sell, the author might conclude that he is a lousy writer. But when debunkers fail, the blame lies with... Hollywood, the Americans, a rising tide of irrationality, the Vatican, comic books, television, the Americans, a raging sea of superstition, and above all a world of vulgar stupid illogical clods who refuse to recognize genius.

An article in the Fortean Times, by all means. Ordinarily there might be a caveat about journalistic ability, but in this case, what the heck, you can type, go for it. Although if you wanted to reach a larger readership, you might try writing your article on a website, or for that matter on any stretch of relatively uncluttered sidewalk.

:yeay:
 
Roswell should best be dealt with as an historical event, and subjected to the same kind of historical analysis as other events. There seems to be little contemporary evidence except the news releases and the photos; everything else is made up of eyewitness accounts, many of which have changed over the years. Roswell is a dubious event, something like the murder of the Princes in the Tower, or an unsolved mystery like Jack the Ripper.

I am afraid this one will run and run.

However one thing that would solve it would be the release of Air Force documents backing up the crashed disc scenario; even better would be release of the material from the site- the breakable metal (much broken) and the untearable fabric (much torn), and alien biological material for DNA testing (assuming it contains DNA at all, which is not guaranteed).
Some or many of us reading this forum will live to see the 100th anniversary of Roswell; surely the material would be released after 100 years (it if exists)

I am pretty much of the opinion that nothing is left in the USAF archives, no data, no alien material, no secrets. It was probably wiped out by the American equivalent of the Old Boy's Network in the late forties to cover up the blunders made by Blanchard and Marcel. If you went to look for similar details about the dozens of other disc crashes enumerated by Graylien you would probably come up with a similar dearth of material.

Does that mean they were all true too?
 
Many of you have probably heard stories of a society which is much higher than the president (which probably began in 47). Whether or not you beleive it, consider this. The time is during a UFO wave in the blistering summer of 47. Consider you were a part of a governing team in the group only days after this incident took place. You have made visit to the scene. You have confirmed wreckage of a craft with unusual properties which looks nothing like a plane and everyone is guessing what the hell it is or where it came from. You have hundreds of men camping in the field at your disposal. Men are sweeing thru soil each day, its dusty, and you have these strange rotted bodies which are creeping everyone out and the smell is repulsive. Its decision making time, so would anyone in their right mind release info to the public? Furthermore, would anyone who wasn't insane actually keep full records of military operations regarding the retrieval of this craft if it was considered beyond top-secret?

I dont understand why people make reference to articles which state that there aren't any records of a downed spaceship being retreived by the US government in the summer of 47'. Obviously.
 
But it would be much simpler to suggest that nothing of that nature (as you've described it) ever happened. Ideas about supra-government organisations don't stick in theories WRT ufology any more than they do anywhere else, as far as conspiracies are involved.

As with other 'unsolved' subjects, as soon as there is a lack of information about any event, the human imagination leaps in and fills as many of the gaps that it can. You can see something similar with the subject of Jack the Ripper. That doesn't necessarily imbue anything with any form of reality.
 
Jerry_B said:
But it would be much simpler to suggest that nothing of that nature (as you've described it) ever happened. Ideas about supra-government organisations don't stick in theories WRT ufology any more than they do anywhere else, as far as conspiracies are involved.

As with other 'unsolved' subjects, as soon as there is a lack of information about any event, the human imagination leaps in and fills as many of the gaps that it can. You can see something similar with the subject of Jack the Ripper. That doesn't necessarily imbue anything with any form of reality.
Click to expand...

Well yes. Probably no one in the general public knows one way or another with 100% certainty that the roswell event was a downed saucer. My paragraph was an "if" type thing. You are right, people do tend to fill in the blanks.

On a side note, if i can come across my pictures of the supposed crash site, I will post them on here. I was there a few years back. Let me tell you, its quite a task to pinpoint and actually get to that area. Land changes hands, new fences go up, trees grow, and different people give different locations. But my pictures match up with a few others that I've seen so I know i was dead on. Sorry for getting a bit off track.
 
IIRC, when people searched for Roswell info under the Freedom of information act, they not only didn't find any, but also couldn't find many other routine documents from the time which should have been preserved.

This smacks of cover-up, unless a whole bunch of stuff was accidently destroyed....

...coincidentally from the Roswell period!
 
This smacks of cover-up, unless a whole bunch of stuff was accidently destroyed.... coincidentally from the Roswell period!
Click to expand...

It could be just a coincidence- it might be possible to test the hypothesis of a cover-up by searching for comparable documents from other bases not involved in unusual incidents;
or to search for documents involving some of the other so-called crashed discs from 1947.
Two different sets of controls possible there.
I would expect to find very little data remaining in many cases- but even if there was evidence of a deliberate cover up, this might have been acheived by the friends and associates of the only two people who went on record at the time to say it was a disc- ie Blanchard and Marcel.
 
Strewth. By the time I've logged out, logged in, entered my username, clicked on "post reply", entered my password again, I've completely forgotten what I was meaning to say.

Anyway. It can't be the first time this has been said, but my personal feeling is that it is no coincidence that the Roswell incident occurred in June 47 and Chuck Yeager went through the sound barrier in October 47.

For me, it's not so much a mtter of what crashed near Roswell, but what (who) was in it that the US government wants to keep quiet.
 
Or is the secrecy after all these years just a result of somewhat anal security measures...?
 
No its a matter of a certain level of trust that the average american citizen has for our government which says that we know they wont screw us over. If the gov't or any affiliated bodys were to come out today and say that there had in fact been an alien spaceship crash retrieval in summer of 47' most americans would drop that bond of trust (and begin to immedietly question other things), and then things begin to unwravel from there. In short, it doesn't benefit them or us, so it won't happen. That is, it will never happen as long as they want to remain being the governmental body of the united states.

**EDIT** added last sentence.
 
The average American already doesn't trust their government, and with damned good reason!
 
The average American already doesn't trust their government, and with damned good reason!
 
Human_84 said:
No its a matter of a certain level of trust that the average american citizen has for our government which says that we know they wont screw us over. If the gov't or any affiliated bodys were to come out today and say that there had in fact been an alien spaceship crash retrieval in summer of 47' most americans would drop that bond of trust (and begin to immedietly question other things), and then things begin to unwravel from there. In short, it doesn't benefit them or us, so it won't happen. That is, it will never happen as long as they want to remain being the governmental body of the united states.
.
Click to expand...

That is, of course, all highly conjectural, based on the idea that there's anything of that particular significance to hide. The only reason Roswell has any legs as a story is that it currently has no nice neat ending. But that doesn't mean that, at it's core, there's some big secret in the sense of being something that's so terrible or shocking that it can never be revealed. It may simply be because the information is still considered to be highly classified, even though it's actual content may have no contemporary relevance. But that's the way classified red tape tends to work. Hence my comment about somewhat anal security measures.
 
Oh. Just been doing a bit of "newbie" background reading and discovered that I seem to have come to more or less the same conclusion as Nick Redfern regarding Roswell.

But where he seems to think that the Roswell crash victims were Japanese POWs, I'm more of the opinion that they were most likely hydrocephaleptic kids pulled from US institutions and strapped into an X-plane as human guinea pigs to test the (at the time, unknown) effects of supersonic flight on the human body.
 
GiulioNapolitani said:
Oh. Just been doing a bit of "newbie" background reading and discovered that I seem to have come to more or less the same conclusion as Nick Redfern regarding Roswell.

But where he seems to think that the Roswell crash victims were Japanese POWs, I'm more of the opinion that they were most likely hydrocephaleptic kids pulled from US institutions and strapped into an X-plane as human guinea pigs to test the (at the time, unknown) effects of supersonic flight on the human body.
Click to expand...

Your not being serious...are you? :roll:
 
GiulioNapolitani said:
But where he seems to think that the Roswell crash victims were Japanese POWs, I'm more of the opinion that they were most likely hydrocephaleptic kids pulled from US institutions and strapped into an X-plane as human guinea pigs to test the (at the time, unknown) effects of supersonic flight on the human body.
Click to expand...

Supersonic flight - from a balloon...?

The effects of high-speed flight and supersonics were already pretty well-established by 1947, simply from wartime experience. The main problem there was the aircraft, and not so much the pilot. It was only when the sound barrier was effectively investigated did more things become apparent. Roswell has nothing to do with this, even if one takes on board Redfern's theory.
 
This idea reminds me of a strange story. Soon after the end of WW2, a secret flying wing prototype was tested in the skies of New Mexico. It was designated to breach the sound barrier. After a number of failed attempts, it was successful. But all contacts were lost with the flying wing and its crew. Many days later, it was located in the desert. Rescue teams began to look for the bodies of the pilots in the wreckage. But, to their amazement and horror, they discovered that the bodies seemed rejuvenated, they looked like those of 8 year old children!

According to Pierre LAGRANGE, this rumour about the "magical" effects of the sound barrier did exist at the time (anybody knows more?). It was born from the fear of the unknown (as any rumour), and so soon faded into oblivion after October 1947. But it shares striking similarities with the Roswell legend: diminutive bodies retrieved from a crashed craft in the same region in the same era. Could they share a common origin too? I think that this tale is probably Roswell's stillborn twin brother, as it might echo a number of illegal experiments.
 
Analis said:
. Soon after the end of WW2, a secret flying wing prototype was tested in the skies of New Mexico. It was designated to breach the sound barrier.
Click to expand...

Doesn't seem very likely - a flying wing is not a very good shape for this. (Look at the X-1 which did break the sound barrier - more dart-like). There are no supersonic flying wings; aerodynamic engineers are not daft.

What's the source of this story?
 
Pierre LAGRANGE mentioned this rumour in his book "La Rumeur de Roswell" (Roswell's Rumour). He wrote that it was present in a number of aviation magazines at the time (circa 1946-47) without quoting any specific issue. If someone had more info, it would be most welcomed. "La Rumeur de Roswell" takes a rather sceptic stance on the Roswell case (but didn't reject the possibility of undisclosed experiment). Its author is often quoted as a sociopsychologist/debunker-although in a recent interview, he seemed much more open-minded. But he is considered as serious.

As for the problem of the shape of a flying wing, it is true that it is unfit to supersonic flight. It is more useful for stealth aircraft. But White Sands was swarming with classified projects in the immediate afterwar. Some maybe still classified. And there were a number of inhumane tests at irradiation or chemical warfare. Or at simulations of high-altitude flights, according to Stanton FRIEDMAN's review of "Body Snatchers in the Desert" at http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfredfern1.html (I don't know if ACHRE studied them). And there are probably some we know nothing of, because of loss of documents. It was not restricted to Walker AFB. The ACHRE stated that whole collections vanished.

It is proven that some of the guinea pigs involved in 1947 were handicapped children ("Body Snatchers..." p.204). There is a good convergence of files to suggest that Air Force projects were interested in such guinea pigs. Apart from the Benson files, there is a 1949 NEPA document which states that full irradiation tests were conducted on "sick individuals" ("Body Snatchers...", p. 205). And an officer from NEPA stated in 1949 that they conducted tests of prototypes similar to flying saucers ("Body Snatchers..." p.140). They were a failure, but his words suggested they took place in 1946-47. Of course, we have no direct proof. But those documents are intriguing in that they show that there is a plausible historical context.

At the time, supersonic flight was one of the hottest topics. And flying wings were seen as a serious matter too, as a symbol of futuristic air studies giving them a kind of magical aura. Those topics were the source of much speculation among pilots and military staff. If a test involving one of those projects with children ended badly, it could easily have evolved into this tale through distorted rescuers' accounts. If any confirmation came, it could provide hints for the study of the emergence of the Roswell story. Similarities are too important to be ignored.
 
But, as you've mentioned, there is no proof for such claims - let alone statements of 'facts' in this area, AFAIK.

WRT flying wings, I very much doubt that money and effort would've spent on large-scale aircraft of this type (i.e. the B-35 and YB-49) if test such as the ones claimed for Roswell had actually occured. Problems with both aircraft came out through flight testing - this would already have been revealed if the alleged flying wing crash at Roswell was part of some test programme. Add to the the research done by the Hortens during WWII.
 
They made a supersonic flying wing out of tinfoil and balsa wood? No wonder it crashed.
 
graylien said:
They made a supersonic flying wing out of tinfoil and balsa wood? No wonder it crashed.
Click to expand...

It probably didn't have cones, that's why it crashed....... ;)
 
Heckler20 said:
graylien said:
They made a supersonic flying wing out of tinfoil and balsa wood? No wonder it crashed.
Click to expand...
It probably didn't have cones, that's why it crashed.......
Click to expand...
You need cones for the synchromesh on a paradigm shift. Without them, you're buggered.
 
Analis said:
It is proven that some of the guinea pigs involved in 1947 were handicapped children ("Body Snatchers..." p.204). There is a good convergence of files to suggest that Air Force projects were interested in such guinea pigs. Apart from the Benson files, there is a 1949 NEPA document which states that full irradiation tests were conducted on "sick individuals" ("Body Snatchers...", p. 205). And an officer from NEPA stated in 1949 that they conducted tests of prototypes similar to flying saucers ("Body Snatchers..." p.140). They were a failure, but his words suggested they took place in 1946-47. Of course, we have no direct proof. But those documents are intriguing in that they show that there is a plausible historical context.
Click to expand...

Sounds like all the evidence comes from the one book, and as I recall he was relying on untracable sources (alleged officials speaking anonymously).


When you look at the data from 'sick individuals' in context you see it's a rather different story:

"While some data on the effects of whole-body radiation on
man have been obtained, these are few and fragmentary, and, for
the most part, have been obtained on sick individuals. some
information of questionable value has been obtained as result of
occasional accidents and mass exposures, such as occurred at
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, obviously the dosage in those cases could
not be accurately determined....The estimates of predicted radiation injury to man are based largely upon experimentation on lower animals, empirical observations and clinical investigation. "

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/radiation/ ... r10i3a.txt

I'd like to see the supposed evidenvce that handicapped children were used as guinea pigs, rather than data being used from other climical trials.

It looks very much to me as though his theory was constructed after the event, and blunders like the supersonic flying wing rather discredit it.
 
Jerry_B:
The intent was to show that there were indeed experiments we are still unaware of. The ACHRE clearly stated in its conclusions that it had probably lost tracks of a number of illegal testings.

The problem is: we don't know exactly what these trials were, what was their goal, their importance, their results... preventing us from drawing any definitive connection. But we know that there were tests we know little or nothing. The authors of the mentionned reports certainly didn't intend to fool us decades later (and an intoxication is very implausible, the main aim was to hide such experiments). And their writings were intended to remain secret-this is the same problem that proponents of alien craft crash have when dealing with files establishing that no flying saucer wreckage had been recovered. It is not true to say that there was no progress at all. 10 years ago, when the idea of deformed humans was put forward, it could be said that there was no proof of that at all. The ACHRE had come with no mention of that. But now, we know with certainty that such people were indeed used in testings at the time. And it was in a document released by the ACHRE, but few people had noticed it.Where did these tests subject come from? Probably from orphanages, hospitals or asylums, as it was suggested by early early proponents. So, they had a good intuition. And the trials mentionned by the 1949 NEPA document remain hidden until now. But we have no reason to doubt their existence.

Now, on one hand we have a number of documents speaking of hidden experiments. Experiments mentionned nor in the 1995 GAO report nor in other declassified files. Some linked to NEPA. Some probably in the White Sands and Kirtland area. On the other hand, a number of rumours coming from the same area. And early, as the Frank SCULLY's book was published in 1950. Other rumours spoke of dwarfs bodies stored in military bases. Yes we can't yet put = between them. But I think that at least, it is probable that reports of small big-headed humanoid bodies are explained by the use of deformed guinea pigs. If we look at the Clinton (later Oak Ridge) Laboratories paper, it describes among others children afflicted with progeria, gargoylism (Hurler syndrom) or hypothyroidian dwarfism. If we look at Norma GARNER's testimony, the most credible witness at Wright-Patterson (in fact, the only credible witness), her description closely match such syndroms. It is true too of the other reliable (or seemingly reliable) testimonies. Probably such sightings originated with such tests. And later, fugitive sightings of monkeys stored in bags would have helped to perpetuate the legend. This explanation is more parcimonious than others; it causes no problem, and is in agreement with what we already know.

The problem of the use (or non-use) of any putative pre-1948 flying wings tests by Northrop is not so easy to know... since both Northrop and the USAF lost their copies of the files! Seems like a joke...

wembley8:
True, it doesn't mention if those "sick individuals" are children or adults. And I never said the contrary. But it shows that such experiments were conducted, and there is no other mention of them in known files. The aim was to show that we don't know of all irradiation tests. And what are those accidents? Are they listed? It seems that they're not, at least I never read any mention of them in any history book of nuclear weapons. The NEPA article was part of lobbying to get official sanction to use huiman beings in its official experimentations. But the facts it refers to obviously. seem to have taken place before. And the document from Clinton I mentioned is an article in the 3 November 1947 issue of the "Biology Division Bulletin" of the Clinton National Laboratory. No ufologist who had knowledge of it questionned its authenticity or implications. On the contrary, some e.t. craft-crash proponents used it as evidence that it makes no sense to keep on putting secrecy on experimentations described in "Body Snatchers...", since truly schoking ones have been revealed (good point indeed).

Last news from REDFERN: it seems he was trying to check if the missings files followed pattens confirming his hypothesis. Claimed some results, we'll see. But his theory can't be 100% true, as there are some severe historical inconsistencies. But could have some truth in it.
 
Analis;
Please could you give a summary of Norma Garner (or Gardner)'s evidence; there seems to be no good summary of her statement on the 'Net.

I tend toward the belief that there were no bodies associated with Roswell, alien or otherwise; perhaps this evidence might change my mind.
 
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